The Religion Discussion

[brainchild]

And @Brainchild. U didnt answer my question. Would u kill a million to save a billion? Noting that if you say yes. Ur admitting that there is some circumstance where even u may see it as moral to commit genocide.

Almost any man would. ..but should a God have to? I can also build a ship and sail to England to tell my aunt hello, but why do that if I possess the power of a telephone?
As we on the topic of unanswered questions...did you research the story of Christ and the whore being added? Is the information solid? You keep avoiding this

[bluesclues]

You just can't seem to connect what I'm saying...all these reasons you providing for why God do this and that were written by men. If you look realistically at what you think your god is then it is clear that a being with such power would not operate in such petty ways. Claiming to be the only God yet forever feeling threatened by false gods who he claims doesn't exist. Even the first four commandments are about himself. That's like a single man being constantly worried about his wife cheating on him...how is this possible if she doesn't exist?

No i understand u just find. Its u thats still selfish. U call it petty to deny the entire human race an evolutionary phase. Like u want to be living in the jungle drinking raw cow blood and drinking wine made from the spit of all your elders then getting married off to ur cousin at 8 yrs old. There is a tribe today that makes young men approaching puberty drink the sperm of their elders. Did u want to stay in that evolutionary state? Do u want to go there an live? So near to the level of wild animals? What kind of people u think we dealing with here in the old testament? Men wearing suit and tie, and air jordans?

God isnt threatened by the worship of false gods. The act u silly selfish person is betrayal.

Imagine you went out of your way to save someone from drowning. After u save them u find out they dont have a job. U set them up to work in your company. U pay to send them to school and training courses to better themselves. You build them right up to a level of independence where they now own their own house and raising a beautiful family. And the next day when they feel like they dont need you anymore, they stop being your friend. Bad talking you and/or putting others above you. How would that make you feel. Not betrayed? Used? To name a few?

The long and short of the story which is not limited to moses i tell u it long and connected. All the prophets have a part and contribution where the stages of man reaching new evolutionary levels in their spiritual and mental state. It was a big plan God was enacting. The caananites were acting contrary to the plan. Because of the timing.. like i told u he wipe them out. That was during the time of the law.

Now we live under grace. What did God do? U are now responsible for yourself. God will no longer burn cities because theyve become pagan and practicing futility. No more peter pay for paul and paul pay for all. Now if u doing evil u will pay for yourself, by yourself. This is why i think that one of the greatest piece of advice i can give to people seeking to get on God's good side, is..

To make sure that your positive contributions to this world outweigh your sins(negative contributions).

The divine right of kings was removed and replaced with democracy. Where every man holds a stake in the affairs of his place of citizenship. Everything was distributed. So now there can be no argument about free will. U will have it for all the years of your life. You will lead yourself. You will choose your leaders. And you, the individual is responsible for your own soul rate of evolution or regression or stagnation. If a whole city turned atheist and only 1 person remained faithful, God would let them live out their lives and even right up to dying of natural causes. In death they will be judged by their own choices. Thus you may have heard it before. We choose our judgement. Not by our liking or preferences. But by the choices we make in life.

[bluesclues]

And @Brainchild. U didnt answer my question. Would u kill a million to save a billion? Noting that if you say yes. Ur admitting that there is some circumstance where even u may see it as moral to commit genocide.

Almost any man would. ..but should a God have to? I can also build a ship and sail to England to tell my aunt hello, but why do that if I possess the power of a telephone?
As we on the topic of unanswered questions...did you research the story of Christ and the whore being added? Is the information solid? You keep avoiding this

Im not avoiding it. It just isnt really important in my view. But i will check it out if u insist. I already know that some stories were created or editted for continuity. Like in such situations where the source parchment had been partially destroyed etc. The scholars would put their best foot forward to maintain the divine objective of the story, whether it was an ancient work of fiction or an actual historical account. Both would be meant and designed to portray a message. The message is more important than your qualms with the script. Once the script successfully conveyed the message it intended, then the objective was achieved, and that is what we have to take away for our spiritual growth.

U trouble urself with such trivial things which knowledge of would not grow your spirit one iota. Why do u waste time on such unbeneficial things?

[bluesclues]

I mean dude. The fact that there are some fiction in the bible is not even an argument. They taught us that in catholic PRIMARY school when getting ready for confirmation.

I mean, do u have a bible in your house anywhere? Open it. On the first page, the prolog or editor's foreword u will find words to this extent.

'The bible is not a book, but a library, joining together dozens of writings, history, STORIES, POETRY, and letters.'

I mean, this is not news.

[eitech]

Eitech .. you never answered my question....why don't you believe in hanuman?.
There are over one billion Hindus in the world , how can they all be wrong? I genuinely want your view on this.

Lol. only cuz u asked nicely.

Matthew 7:13-14 KJVS
[13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat: [14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it.

You can only know you have something if you have it. I don't believe in anything else because of my experience. Jus like u and brainchild had an experience. i know i have the truth so i can dismiss alot of false stuff. Call it whatever you like but thats the confidence i have.

May i ask a question to you? The actual process of salvation, that is, the moment u truly trust in Jesus, and you get saved, have you any idea how long that process takes? the transition from unbeliever to believer? how long you think it takes to convert?

[Dizzy28]

Hanuman, a Jewish carpenter and Allah gets in a fight...who will win??
My money is on the flying monkey!!

[crock101]

Eitech .. you do realize that the argument you used to claim that hindu gods are false, is the same argument that Hindus will use to claim that your Christian God is false..... if only the two groups knew just how right they both are.

[crock101]

Eitech I have no idea what the hell salvation is supposed to be , getting saved....from what exactly ? Tell me, a new born baby who died clearly didn't accept Jesus, doesn't that mean they can't go to heaven..after all, to get in, as you just said, you need to accept Jesus , right.

To go from unbeliever to believer , I have no idea what that process would look like, much less how long such a destructive process would take.
That being said ,I have never met anybody who was genuinely an atheist that then converted to theism, I have met people who claimed to be formerly atheist, but we're just people who didn't belong to a particular religion but still held outrageous beliefs in the supernatural.....this is not that same as being atheist.

[eitech]

Eitech .. you do realize that the argument you used to claim that hindu gods are false, is the same argument that Hindus will use to claim that your Christian God is false..... if only the two groups knew just how right they both are.

Well while that maybe true, either would defend their belief. i know mine to be the truth. They are being deceived. we will jus be goin around in circles here. lets not. dats what you feed on for ur arguments.

[eitech]

Eitech I have no idea what the hell salvation is supposed to be , getting saved....from what exactly ? Tell me, a new born baby who died clearly didn't accept Jesus, doesn't that mean they can't go to heaven..after all, to get in, as you just said, you need to accept Jesus , right.

To go from unbeliever to believer , I have no idea what that process would look like, much less how long such a destructive process would take.
That being said ,I have never met anybody who was genuinely an atheist that then converted to theism, I have met people who claimed to be formerly atheist, but we're just people who didn't belong to a particular religion but still held outrageous beliefs in the supernatural.....this is not that same as being atheist.

So you have no idea about salvation is or what it is for, or what it saved you from? I am shocked. And here i thought you had some bible knowledge. But no, you do have enough to pick and choose what you think you understand or what ur logic deems crazy.
You don't know how long salvation takes or what is the outcome of it?You dont know how it works but you already have ur opinion and bringing up a baby as an example? WOW. Sir, you are indeed a bigger fool than i originally thought. These are the questions you should be concerned about, but you wanna dwell on a talking donkey. I now realise who is the real talking donkey now.

Please do not ask the same questions over and over. you do not wish to know the truth, so you will never understand what i am saying, never.

[crock101]

Bible and knowledge, two things that have nothing to do with each other... just because you use a word like salvation doesn't mean you said anything of any value.

[eitech]

Bible and knowledge, two things that have nothing to do with each other... just because you use a word like salvation doesn't mean you said anything of any value.

Lol. you didn't understand. fair enough. move on.

[crock101]

The only people who know what salvation, is are the same people who know what the firmament is. These people are hold back civilization with their superstitious nonsense.

[eitech]

The only people who know what salvation, is are the same people who know what the firmament is. These people are hold back civilization with their superstitious nonsense.

Yes yes i know your thoughts already. We at the quarter mark on the circle now.

[Daran]

[eitech]

LMAO. Another noob who clearly has no clue. Salvation is a gift eh boss. Jesus paid the price. If you do not want to accept the gift, THATs TOTALLY UP TO YOU. Jus like if some offers you a gift, you can reject it or accept it. No one forces you. IT is not something you can work for either. A gift!!! Surely you can understand that. But dont take my word for it. Do your research instead of using someone else's pic. Hahaha

Ephesians 2:8-9 KJVS
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[crock101]

I have noticed a trend among the religious on the thread.. They put words together, that ,by themselves have meaning , but together don't make any sense at all, for instance " bible knowledge" or "religious scholar". And then they expect everyone else to play along and pretend that the value they place in their made up phrases should be respected by the rest of us.
It simply doesn't work that way.

[eitech]

I have noticed a trend among the religious on the thread.. They put words together, that ,by themselves have meaning , but together don't make any sense at all, for instance " bible knowledge" or "religious scholar". And then they expect everyone else to play along and pretend that the value they place in their made up phrases should be respected by the rest of us.
It simply doesn't work that way.

Half way. you really goin full circle huh?

[crock101]

Once again your sentences are making no sense.....I am no longer surprised.

[eitech]

Once again your sentences are making no sense.....I am no longer surprised.

likewise. lol

[GRIM]

What u are talking about has no correlation to the free will i am speaking about. I am aware of those studies ur talking about. and they do not address free will.

Free will is the ability to make choices. If u can make choices then you have free will. Left or right, do the cool thing or the right thing? Do the honest thing or the make you rich quick thing? Serve God, or dont have time for that just want to live and enjoy ur life. All are choices made with free will.

U have the free will to speed on the highway. But the consequence is ull get a ticket. U even have the free will to disobey the commandments, cheat on your wife, murder, but just like the ticket on the highway, there will be consequences. God doh sleep like the police. He always patrolling and seeing everything once yuh cross 80 a ticket will appear on yuh dashboard. Lol.. U have the free will to take up false Gods, the consequence is u would be abandoned by the real God. Titt... tatt. Cant have ur cake and eat it. This isnt heaven where that is totally possible lol.

did u just have a brain fart?.... i just said its possible to predict the choice someone would make before they were conscious of their decision. be it simple choices (for now).
so would you murder someone for no reason if you believe there was no god regardless of being prosecuted by man-made laws?

bluescclues i would like to know what your choice would be in this scenario given your self-proclaimed connection with god:
there is a train speeding down a track where 5 people are unconscious on the track, you can press a button which will change the train onto another track but there is 1 person unconscious on that track.
so basically 2 "choices" kill 5 or kill 1. which would you choose?

most people would choose to kill 1 but here is the disturbing thing with people like bluseclues if "god" told them to let those 5 people die, they would. there is very little (if anything at all) separating that "choice" than a sociopath or psychopath saying voices in their head told them to let those 5 people die

[brainchild]

@bluesclues Well you reach... without even checking the info you already willing to accept whatever changes the church and kings make to the Bible. So in the midst of your "enlightenment" you're anchored to a man made book.

[brainchild]

I mean dude. The fact that there are some fiction in the bible is not even an argument. They taught us that in catholic PRIMARY school when getting ready for confirmation.

I mean, do u have a bible in your house anywhere? Open it. On the first page, the prolog or editor's foreword u will find words to this extent.

'The bible is not a book, but a library, joining together dozens of writings, history, STORIES, POETRY, and letters.'

I mean, this is not news.

My problem with this is that you, like many others, can't differentiate between fiction and fact.

[eitech]

hear nah, if it could be proven to you all that God exists, and all therein the scriptures (bible) is true, will you be ready to accept that truth? lets make it simple, God in the bible. No other.

[GRIM]

hear nah, if it could be proven to you all that God exists, and all therein the scriptures (bible) is true, will you be ready to accept that truth?

i can can only speak for myself.
if god is proven to exist be it the christian god, allah, hindu god, hell even scientology then fine. i still will personally have alot of issues with god.
having to follow god if his reasons for allowing everything to be as it is, is exactly as religion says his reason is i.e. his will or punishment or saying he is mysterious i will still (most likely) come to the conclusion that god is not good or just, he is just what he is and i cannot forgive god for the things he does or fails to do.

[eitech]

hear nah, if it could be proven to you all that God exists, and all therein the scriptures (bible) is true, will you be ready to accept that truth?

i can can only speak for myself.
if god is proven to exist be it the christian god, allah, hindu god, hell even scientology then fine. i still will personally have alot of issues with god.
having to follow god if his reasons for allowing everything to be as it is, is exactly as religion says his reason is i.e. his will or punishment or saying he is mysterious i will still (most likely) come to the conclusion that god is not good or just, he is just what he is and i cannot forgive god for the things he does or fails to do.

ok jus to address ur issue: Imagine an all powerful, wise,infinite being. the creator of the universe. Do you think ur finite knowledge cud explain such a being? Or understand his mind why he does stuff? You can only see what ur human logic allows you. So my question again, do u think u would be able to understand the mind of God?

[bluesclues]

What u are talking about has no correlation to the free will i am speaking about. I am aware of those studies ur talking about. and they do not address free will.

Free will is the ability to make choices. If u can make choices then you have free will. Left or right, do the cool thing or the right thing? Do the honest thing or the make you rich quick thing? Serve God, or dont have time for that just want to live and enjoy ur life. All are choices made with free will.

U have the free will to speed on the highway. But the consequence is ull get a ticket. U even have the free will to disobey the commandments, cheat on your wife, murder, but just like the ticket on the highway, there will be consequences. God doh sleep like the police. He always patrolling and seeing everything once yuh cross 80 a ticket will appear on yuh dashboard. Lol.. U have the free will to take up false Gods, the consequence is u would be abandoned by the real God. Titt... tatt. Cant have ur cake and eat it. This isnt heaven where that is totally possible lol.

did u just have a brain fart?.... i just said its possible to predict the choice someone would make before they were conscious of their decision. be it simple choices (for now).
so would you murder someone for no reason if you believe there was no god regardless of being prosecuted by man-made laws?

bluescclues i would like to know what your choice would be in this scenario given your self-proclaimed connection with god:
there is a train speeding down a track where 5 people are unconscious on the track, you can press a button which will change the train onto another track but there is 1 person unconscious on that track.
so basically 2 "choices" kill 5 or kill 1. which would you choose?

most people would choose to kill 1 but here is the disturbing thing with people like bluseclues if "god" told them to let those 5 people die, they would. there is very little (if anything at all) separating that "choice" than a sociopath or psychopath saying voices in their head told them to let those 5 people die

U dont understand the depth of your setups. Wasnt one of your statements that 'free will may not really exist'?? No.. it really exists. Dont try to cop out.

Next, ur traintracks issue. I think ur crazy in ur assertion but nevertheless. Let us add some other peas to the pod.

What if i knew that the 1 on the traintrack, was the president of our country, or the only doctor/chemist in the world who could work on and solve the problem of a vaccine for some terrible disease threatening the world? Aids or zombie virus let's say. But you didnt know this. U would think i was mad for saving the 1 and letting the 5 die would you?

[bluesclues]

I mean dude. The fact that there are some fiction in the bible is not even an argument. They taught us that in catholic PRIMARY school when getting ready for confirmation.

I mean, do u have a bible in your house anywhere? Open it. On the first page, the prolog or editor's foreword u will find words to this extent.

'The bible is not a book, but a library, joining together dozens of writings, history, STORIES, POETRY, and letters.'

I mean, this is not news.

My problem with this is that you, like many others, can't differentiate between fiction and fact.

No the problem is that YOU find it too tedious to process allegory mixed in with fact and fiction. But there is a way to process it. And in that way, everything said is totally true. But if ur reading allegory or metaphor expecting it to be accurate history. Or reading fiction and expecting the reality, then that is why u will run into problems. U must understand the way the books are comprised, there is a lot, i mean a very big lot of symbolism going on. So there is alot of metaphor, alot of allegory, but all based on and around a single truth.

Thus when one says the bible is the truth. They dont mean that everything u read in it physically happened exactly as described therein. It means that what the collections of books and stories promise to guide u to and reveal if you follow the instructions is true. So u are guided by the messages of each story, the moral. Not to nitpick at imperfections in the script.


My point being. U might see God save the 1 and let the 5 die and ud think him immoral. Because u didnt have the amount of knowledge he had in the matter to make the better choice.

[brainchild]

@bluesclues...you make a very good point here, maybe if i saw this in action I would take it seriously. But since I've been following this thread I have seen you defend the most ridiculous things. Not once identifying a particular part of the Bible as being fiction, exaggeration, poetry or song. Even in our recent discussions here there are unanswered questions and half addressed issues.

[brainchild]

As you talk about allegory...are you familiar with the "allegory of the cave"? If not check it out. Also check out the "Epic of Gilgamesh" and lemme know what are your thoughts on it, seeing that he predates the Bible by about 10,000 yrs.