What is the PNM's plan for the economy?

[Numb3r4]

But weren't we told that "Massah day done"?

[Numb3r4]

Oh how far we've came.

[ingalook]

But weren't we told that "Massah day done"?

Yeah but "Massy Day" now start!

[Miktay]

But weren't we told that "Massah day done"?

Who said that ?

[Numb3r4]

^^It was uttered by Eric Eustice Williams on one of his now famous addresses to the people at Woodford Square on 22nd March 1961.

The Guardian made the statement that Sir Wight (a local white) had entered the political arena by joining the DLP, this made it the party of choice or should be the party of choice for the potential voters, that voters should follow his lead being white and all. Williams went on to state that the voters were too savy for this, that they would not fall for such statements. He then uttered the statement or rather told the Guardian "Massa Day done". Implying that the rule of the whites who only sought to use the Caribbean for its natural resources (at the time sugar) was over.

He did go on to explain that in his context "Massa" didn't specifically mean a people or a race but a system of subjugation, a time past, meaning that now we no longer wear the yolk of slavery......etc...etc...you get the idea. He also explained that there were some whites who fought for the African cause.

However maybe his words were ill timed or misunderstood or taken out of context or was simply what the populace wanted to hear ( maybe the population wasn't as savy or sophisticated as he had thought) as such it was interpreted and today still is interpreted at the very lowest level i.e. racially.

In all the term is now associated with the fact that we don't have to work as we once did, for to do so would mean that we were being controlled or used, that we are no longer beholden to any form or structure, structure is a representation of slavery, a construct of the imperials and colonizers.

Going forward it also had the conotation that we are now entitled to what was once the property of the colonizers. Key word being ENTITLED, combine that with what was said above about not wanting to work....and you can see where we are now, mentality wise.

[Miktay]

^^It was uttered by Eric Eustice Williams on one of his now famous addresses to the people at Woodford Square on 22nd March 1961.

The Guardian made the statement that Sir Wight (a local white) had entered the political arena by joining the DLP, this made it the party of choice or should be the party of choice for the potential voters, that voters should follow his lead being white and all. Williams went on to state that the voters were too savy for this, that they would not fall for such statements. He then uttered the statement or rather told the Guardian "Massa Day done". Implying that the rule of the whites who only sought to use the Caribbean for its natural resources (at the time sugar) was over.

He did go on to explain that in his context "Massa" didn't specifically mean a people or a race but a system of subjugation, a time past, meaning that now we no longer wear the yolk of slavery......etc...etc...you get the idea. He also explained that there were some whites who fought for the African cause.

However maybe his words were ill timed or misunderstood or taken out of context or was simply what the populace wanted to hear ( maybe the population wasn't as savy or sophisticated as he had thought) as such it was interpreted and today still is interpreted at the very lowest level i.e. racially.

In all the term is now associated with the fact that we don't have to work as we once did, for to do so would mean that we were being controlled or used, that we are no longer beholden to any form or structure, structure is a representation of slavery, a construct of the imperials and colonizers.

Going forward it also had the conotation that we are now entitled to what was once the property of the colonizers. Key word being ENTITLED, combine that with what was said above about not wanting to work....and you can see where we are now, mentality wise.

Thanks 4 that explanation numb...

There was a little thing called the 1970s Black power revolution that was ostensibly driven by the still perceived inequality in our system. So massa was perceived to be alive and kicking in the 1970s.

There were many reasons behind the 1970s attempted revo iin addition to perceived inequality...but look at the real sources of massa's power. Look at the economic and military power. Look at the big kid in the neighborhood.

Economic
The US $ iz supported by oil aka the petrodollar. Thiz iz the world's primary reserve and trading currency. It iz also the primary fight fright or flight currency. And several countries peg their local currency exchange rate to USD

How many of these supports does the TT dollar have?

Military
The US petro dollar iz also supported by 11 of these & their battle groups as well as numerous military bases around the world.



How many of these supports does sweet T&T have ?

We can summarize it like thiz. Massa has left the T&T plantation but iz still in control.

[EmilioA]

I wonder who will be paying for that brand spanking new 5 story EW memorial building that they gonna use for the PNM headquarters?

Is either Tax payers or party financiers ... And both options ain't sounding to Kosher.

Eh. So how you suggest the finance it ? BBQ sale ?

I suggest they don't build it ... Cause when they do it and they then need to pay their financiers 10 dollars for every dollar they spent on it, half of the country go cry "corruption" and then the other half go say "is we time now". The same cycle continues over and over ...

This is how hundreds of millions does go into fixing a stadium, a couple billion does go missing in building a gas to liquid plant and a building highway to south.

You suggest they dont build it.

You expect them to stick in the same 50 year old building without even renovating ?

When every single Government beyotch and he bredda crying tighten yuh belt, eat cassava, drive smaller, bull less? Fack yeah! Hello, you iz in de Govament now, you have millions of square feet of space available to you, so its not like Balisier House is critical to the functioning of the Government, and don't gimme any symbolism sheit, cuz den you dey woulda fnd de arse in Woodford Square.
Once again this Government fails to understand that the timing of this and other projects of dubious social or economic value is completely wrong. It is almost as if they are saying "fack y'all, we here for the time being so we go do wey we want!"

So you are suggesting that the PNM use Govt buildings for Party meetings and administration ? I thought we trying to separate Party from Govt ?

[redmanjp]

PNM's plan for the economy:
tax food
tax gas (Oct. '15)
tax cars
tax hose users
tax owners of unkept lots
tax gas more (mid year review)
tax online shopping
tax drivers going 81kph

[Habit7]

PNM's plan for the economy:
tax food
tax gas (Oct. '15)
tax cars
tax hose users
tax owners of unkept lots
tax gas more (mid year review)
tax online shopping
tax drivers going 81kph

Sounds like every Gulf and Scandinavian state dealing with sharp fall in oil prices.

Unless you prefer the Venezuelan model...?

[drchaos]

PNM's plan for the economy:
tax food
tax gas (Oct. '15)
tax cars
tax hose users
tax owners of unkept lots
tax gas more (mid year review)
tax online shopping
tax drivers going 81kph

Sounds like every Gulf and Scandinavian state dealing with sharp fall in oil prices.

Unless you prefer the Venezuelan model...?

Really?
Scandinavian countries/country have a speed limit of 80 kph? They charge duty, VAT and and online shopping tax for buying goods online? They instituting more taxes on new vehicles based on engine CC's? They reducing sales tax/VAT? They increasing their gas prices by 15% every 6 months?

Venezuela was sort of falling flat on their face even when oil prices were high. So not comparable here.

[Dizzy28]

^ Yall will sheit your pants when you see what personal income tax rates are in Scandavian countries!!!!

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

^ Yall will sheit your pants when you see what personal income tax rates are in Scandavian countries!!!!

Leave dem nah. Dem so have all the solutions and only know how to complain.

[Numb3r4]

^^It was uttered by Eric Eustice Williams on one of his now famous addresses to the people at Woodford Square on 22nd March 1961.

The Guardian made the statement that Sir Wight (a local white) had entered the political arena by joining the DLP, this made it the party of choice or should be the party of choice for the potential voters, that voters should follow his lead being white and all. Williams went on to state that the voters were too savy for this, that they would not fall for such statements. He then uttered the statement or rather told the Guardian "Massa Day done". Implying that the rule of the whites who only sought to use the Caribbean for its natural resources (at the time sugar) was over.

He did go on to explain that in his context "Massa" didn't specifically mean a people or a race but a system of subjugation, a time past, meaning that now we no longer wear the yolk of slavery......etc...etc...you get the idea. He also explained that there were some whites who fought for the African cause.

However maybe his words were ill timed or misunderstood or taken out of context or was simply what the populace wanted to hear ( maybe the population wasn't as savy or sophisticated as he had thought) as such it was interpreted and today still is interpreted at the very lowest level i.e. racially.

In all the term is now associated with the fact that we don't have to work as we once did, for to do so would mean that we were being controlled or used, that we are no longer beholden to any form or structure, structure is a representation of slavery, a construct of the imperials and colonizers.

Going forward it also had the conotation that we are now entitled to what was once the property of the colonizers. Key word being ENTITLED, combine that with what was said above about not wanting to work....and you can see where we are now, mentality wise.

Thanks 4 that explanation numb...

There was a little thing called the 1970s Black power revolution that was ostensibly driven by the still perceived inequality in our system. So massa was perceived to be alive and kicking in the 1970s.

There were many reasons behind the 1970s attempted revo iin addition to perceived inequality...but look at the real sources of massa's power. Look at the economic and military power. Look at the big kid in the neighborhood.

Economic
The US $ iz supported by oil aka the petrodollar. Thiz iz the world's primary reserve and trading currency. It iz also the primary fight fright or flight currency. And several countries peg their local currency exchange rate to USD

How many of these supports does the TT dollar have?

Military
The US petro dollar iz also supported by 11 of these & their battle groups as well as numerous military bases around the world.



How many of these supports does sweet T&T have ?

We can summarize it like thiz. Massa has left the T&T plantation but iz still in control.

No disagreement from me.

To add to that though the Black Power was also directed more inward than outward, in the sence that in the 60's (up til 62) we were still under the direct rule of "Massa" whereas in the 70's we were under out own governance but were still unable to truly break the "Massa" culture.

The Black Power did help some what when one considers the state of some of the financial institutions then and now, with the addmission of folks who were of darker skin tones.

Now we still are under a "yolk" of sorts when one considers how beholden we are to cheap consumable products and multinational companies. So in spirit "Massa Day" lives on, probably now in a more sophisticated and convoluted form.

With regards to the corporations they are now the tools of the former colonizers. Oddly enough it was the nation that rebelled (America) against the largest colonizer (Britain) that I would say fine tuned the use of corporations to build the new empire.

[Numb3r4]

The Trinbagonian people may just need to bite the bullet and endure the "harsh" measures, in all fairness such standards, taxes and rules are common in many developed nations which we are striving towards, so a little sacrifice isn't bad.

The problem is that the Trinbagonian people have the fear that despite their sacrifices they will not be put to good use, that it will be usurped by the select few. So why bother, why let someone else enjoy your hard earned money when you can? Don't be an ass and let someone else ride you.

No government has spent any time really cultivating the trust of the people.

[Pirate]

All ah alyuh only quarreling amongst alyuh self. As I said in a previous post, this new government was voted in to be a guiding and stable way forward, as we thought the former was supposed to be.

There has been a constant "we just considering it and will consult with the public" and then boom, implemented like a thief in the night!

It's not about supporting blindly...

Edit: not saying that I disagree with all measures implemented

[De Dragon]

^ Yall will sheit your pants when you see what personal income tax rates are in Scandavian countries!!!!

Leave dem nah. Dem so have all the solutions and only know how to complain.

Yes, but what is the level of their services? How is their health care, schools, infrastructure, public transport? These people don't mind paying high taxes because they know that their tax dollars go towards world class services. Fools here want to tax the sheit out of us and you have sheitty services, and bobol. You all seem to forget the purpose of taxation.

[Habit7]

PNM's plan for the economy:
tax food
tax gas (Oct. '15)
tax cars
tax hose users
tax owners of unkept lots
tax gas more (mid year review)
tax online shopping
tax drivers going 81kph

Sounds like every Gulf and Scandinavian state dealing with sharp fall in oil prices.

Unless you prefer the Venezuelan model...?

Really?
Scandinavian countries/country have a speed limit of 80 kph? They charge duty, VAT and and online shopping tax for buying goods online? They instituting more taxes on new vehicles based on engine CC's? They reducing sales tax/VAT? They increasing their gas prices by 15% every 6 months?

Venezuela was sort of falling flat on their face even when oil prices were high. So not comparable here.

I think you are missing the point. All petro-economies are tightening revenue collection.

Scandinavian countries are some of the highest taxed in Europe. VAT in Norway starts off at 25% then add duties to that and all your skybox goodies. Be prepared to pay up to 100% in taxes on a car, plus annual road tax. Fuel is taxed as well, TT has the 9th out of 172 in world diesel price at US$0.30, Norway is dead last at 172nd with US$1.64.

Venezuela could have sustained their welfare state with a high oil price, corruption and inefficiency was killing them. In like manner in 2010-2014 with high oil prices we were able to sustain our growing welfare state while the economy failed to grow. If you think life today in TT can go on with subsidised fuel, no restrictions on capital flight and inefficient collection of taxes then you in the wrong country, check next door and enjoy yourself.

[drchaos]

^ Yall will sheit your pants when you see what personal income tax rates are in Scandavian countries!!!!

Yall will piss yourself's to know the quality of life they get in exchange for the high taxes they pay ...

We will ramp up taxes and yet have no increase in the quality of life. Except of course the PP/PNM quality of life, that keeps going up no matter what taxes we pay.

[drchaos]

PNM's plan for the economy:
tax food
tax gas (Oct. '15)
tax cars
tax hose users
tax owners of unkept lots
tax gas more (mid year review)
tax online shopping
tax drivers going 81kph

Sounds like every Gulf and Scandinavian state dealing with sharp fall in oil prices.

Unless you prefer the Venezuelan model...?

Really?
Scandinavian countries/country have a speed limit of 80 kph? They charge duty, VAT and and online shopping tax for buying goods online? They instituting more taxes on new vehicles based on engine CC's? They reducing sales tax/VAT? They increasing their gas prices by 15% every 6 months?

Venezuela was sort of falling flat on their face even when oil prices were high. So not comparable here.

I think you are missing the point. All petro-economies are tightening revenue collection.

Scandinavian countries are some of the highest taxed in Europe. VAT in Norway starts off at 25% then add duties to that and all your skybox goodies. Be prepared to pay up to 100% in taxes on a car, plus annual road tax. Fuel is taxed as well, TT has the 9th out of 172 in world diesel price at US$0.30, Norway is dead last at 172nd with US$1.64.

Venezuela could have sustained their welfare state with a high oil price, corruption and inefficiency was killing them. In like manner in 2010-2014 with high oil prices we were able to sustain our growing welfare state while the economy failed to grow. If you think life today in TT can go on with subsidised fuel, no restrictions on capital flight and inefficient collection of taxes then you in the wrong country, check next door and enjoy yourself.

No boy habbit you missing the point ... Scandinavian countries already had high level of taxes even when oil was super dupper high.

"Sounds like every Gulf and Scandinavian state dealing with sharp fall in oil prices."

[De Dragon]

PNM's plan for the economy:
tax food
tax gas (Oct. '15)
tax cars
tax hose users
tax owners of unkept lots
tax gas more (mid year review)
tax online shopping
tax drivers going 81kph

Sounds like every Gulf and Scandinavian state dealing with sharp fall in oil prices.

Unless you prefer the Venezuelan model...?

Really?
Scandinavian countries/country have a speed limit of 80 kph? They charge duty, VAT and and online shopping tax for buying goods online? They instituting more taxes on new vehicles based on engine CC's? They reducing sales tax/VAT? They increasing their gas prices by 15% every 6 months?

Venezuela was sort of falling flat on their face even when oil prices were high. So not comparable here.

I think you are missing the point. All petro-economies are tightening revenue collection.

Scandinavian countries are some of the highest taxed in Europe. VAT in Norway starts off at 25% then add duties to that and all your skybox goodies. Be prepared to pay up to 100% in taxes on a car, plus annual road tax. Fuel is taxed as well, TT has the 9th out of 172 in world diesel price at US$0.30, Norway is dead last at 172nd with US$1.64.

Venezuela could have sustained their welfare state with a high oil price, corruption and inefficiency was killing them. In like manner in 2010-2014 with high oil prices we were able to sustain our growing welfare state while the economy failed to grow. If you think life today in TT can go on with subsidised fuel, no restrictions on capital flight and inefficient collection of taxes then you in the wrong country, check next door and enjoy yourself.

How many Norwegians use public transport so that the high diesel price does not affect them? I'm pretty sure that they have a super efficient and reliable service. How have we restricted capital flight and made tax collection more efficient? I for one never advocated that wastage via subsidies be perpetuated forever, but instead of gradually removing it while using the money saved to improve public transport, the Government pulled it in one fell swoop, left us with the same archaic public transport system, and actually made it more expensive to travel via the most reliable service( taxis and maxis).

[Redman]

Well sheeit...I agree with Dragon.
And Habit.
We can't be like Scandinavian countries....what we see is a result...not the beginning.

We need to emulate what we need ...tweak it and continually adapt as time goes by.
Most of the systemic issues originate from headwaters of old and out dated law.

[Habit7]

No boy habbit you missing the point ... Scandinavian countries already had high level of taxes even when oil was super dupper high.

"Sounds like every Gulf and Scandinavian state dealing with sharp fall in oil prices."

Norway has heavily taxed their citizens and banked their oil revenues so that they can survive days like this. Their action was not reactionary, it was sustained high taxes always, taxes you would have been bawling about if we did the same since 1970's, now we have to catch up.

How many Norwegians use public transport so that the high diesel price does not affect them? I'm pretty sure that they have a super efficient and reliable service. How have we restricted capital flight and made tax collection more efficient? I for one never advocated that wastage via subsidies be perpetuated forever, but instead of gradually removing it while using the money saved to improve public transport, the Government pulled it in one fell swoop, left us with the same archaic public transport system, and actually made it more expensive to travel via the most reliable service( taxis and maxis).

Norway has some of the most expensive public transport in the world to go along with the world's most expensive diesel price.

In 2012 my fuel bill increased by 44% and I took it like a patriot. Every economist worth their salt advise that now is the best time to remove the fuel subsidy, which is one of our biggest cause of foriegn capital flight.

How else to you propose to pay for our "archaic" subsidized high-speed catamaran water taxis/fast ferries, brand new turboprops inter-island flights, luxury coaches from Sando/PFortin/Arima/SGrande to PoS?

[Redman]

How else to you propose to pay for

our "archaic" subsidized high-speed catamaran water taxis/fast ferries

,

Sell advertising,sell Corporate bulk rates, allow monthly/annual tickets.
Make a hrly or 45 min schedule of departure and keep it.
Point and Felicity will open up both locations making two way traffic more likely
Reverse tender the provision of all services,-lets not get another Sue
Reclaim the land required(easy in the gulf)
There is actually a business plan that was submitted to Jack Warner when he was Minister of Wks and Trans...That explained this in detail.

brand new turboprops inter-island flights

Why cant we use something like this -from POS and or Sando-to Tobago?
Right alongside the water taxi and ferry system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ShinMaywa_US-2

now tobago is 20 min away.

This concept should be tested......

The Gulf is a maintenance free platform of infrastructure...why arent we using it?

[Habit7]

Lofty ideas...

But Water Taxi already sells advertising, govt still subsidizing +85% of the ticket http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/Wat ... 59171.html
Point Fortin and Waterloo are good ideas on paper but it would include further expense of dredging, building port facilities and still they would require subsidized bus transport because both ports would not be walking distance from the commercial centers esp. in the case of Chaguanas.
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/No- ... 69441.html

Sea planes operate at a lot more risk than conventional planes. Plus you would have to duplicate many of the facilities that are already present at the airports (fuel, repair, security, baggage handing and flight transfers). Plus I can't think of any stretch of water near SW Tobago that is calm enough for safe reliable operations of large sea planes, as soon as you leave Scarborough port huge wave rocks the ferries.

[drchaos]

No boy habbit you missing the point ... Scandinavian countries already had high level of taxes even when oil was super dupper high.

"Sounds like every Gulf and Scandinavian state dealing with sharp fall in oil prices."

Norway has heavily taxed their citizens and banked their oil revenues so that they can survive days like this. Their action was not reactionary, it was sustained high taxes always, taxes you would have been bawling about if we did the same since 1970's, now we have to catch up.

How many Norwegians use public transport so that the high diesel price does not affect them? I'm pretty sure that they have a super efficient and reliable service. How have we restricted capital flight and made tax collection more efficient? I for one never advocated that wastage via subsidies be perpetuated forever, but instead of gradually removing it while using the money saved to improve public transport, the Government pulled it in one fell swoop, left us with the same archaic public transport system, and actually made it more expensive to travel via the most reliable service( taxis and maxis).

Norway has some of the most expensive public transport in the world to go along with the world's most expensive diesel price.

In 2012 my fuel bill increased by 44% and I took it like a patriot. Every economist worth their salt advise that now is the best time to remove the fuel subsidy, which is one of our biggest cause of foriegn capital flight.

How else to you propose to pay for our "archaic" subsidized high-speed catamaran water taxis/fast ferries, brand new turboprops inter-island flights, luxury coaches from Sando/PFortin/Arima/SGrande to PoS?

Well you did suggest what the Scandinavian countries were doing was reactionary to falling oil prices hence my reply.
Agree that Norway was planning all along but for T&T closing the bag after the cat is gone not really gonna help.
I totally agree with fuel prices need to reach market prices and Trini's need to start paying for things at their actual market value.
But a Scandinavian taxation system would not work here, the main goal should be growing the economy and make the current tax system more efficient.
Only when revenue is on the way up then further taxation should be increased.

[Habit7]

Meanwhile...

[De Dragon]

Meanwhile...

So? What does this have to do with us? Is Suriname in the exact economic position that we are in? Is Jamaica? Grenada? The Government itself has admitted only days ago that we should embrace the measures proposed in the Budget/mid year review, or else fall into the clutches of the IMF. Has something drastically changed since then?

[drchaos]

If that next budget does not have drastic cuts in spending we will be in debt to the IMF very soon.
You can't spend 60+ billion when your revenues are in the 40+ billions. Unless you borrow of course. And with our bond ratings going down fast there won't be much people lining up at the door to lend us money.

[Habit7]

So? What does this have to do with us? Is Suriname in the exact economic position that we are in?

Yes.

In fact in CARICOM there isnt an economy more similar to ours than Suriname. Suriname is heavily dependant on commodity prices like us. After us, they are the largest producer of oil. Their reaction, like Azerbaijan, is indicative of how other govts like us dealt with the economic shocks from the oil price drop.

[bluesclues]

No boy habbit you missing the point ... Scandinavian countries already had high level of taxes even when oil was super dupper high.

"Sounds like every Gulf and Scandinavian state dealing with sharp fall in oil prices."

Norway has heavily taxed their citizens and banked their oil revenues so that they can survive days like this. Their action was not reactionary, it was sustained high taxes always, taxes you would have been bawling about if we did the same since 1970's, now we have to catch up.

How many Norwegians use public transport so that the high diesel price does not affect them? I'm pretty sure that they have a super efficient and reliable service. How have we restricted capital flight and made tax collection more efficient? I for one never advocated that wastage via subsidies be perpetuated forever, but instead of gradually removing it while using the money saved to improve public transport, the Government pulled it in one fell swoop, left us with the same archaic public transport system, and actually made it more expensive to travel via the most reliable service( taxis and maxis).

Norway has some of the most expensive public transport in the world to go along with the world's most expensive diesel price.

In 2012 my fuel bill increased by 44% and I took it like a patriot. Every economist worth their salt advise that now is the best time to remove the fuel subsidy, which is one of our biggest cause of foriegn capital flight.

How else to you propose to pay for our "archaic" subsidized high-speed catamaran water taxis/fast ferries, brand new turboprops inter-island flights, luxury coaches from Sando/PFortin/Arima/SGrande to PoS?

Because norway did it right. Pnm was spending like monkeys in a all u can eat banana buffet. Not saving, not investing in diversification. When times good save for when times are bad. The lack of wisdom in resource management is evident.