the right to bear arms

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

IMHO the TTPS has to prove me unsuitable-not me proving myself suitable

what would happen if we applied your logic to things such as advancement in the education system, employment, public office, medical staff and doctors, police officers etc.?

[Redman]

but ahm we talking about the right to bear arms.

Please don't hijack the people thread.

The current system has a series of requirements that have nothing to do with ones ability to use a fire arm.
Even if you meet the requirements your application is frustrated based on the personal whim of the Commissioner.

That's a policy ...enforced by...not enforcing another policy.

Makes no sense

[Chimera]

Yes Duane please try to stay on topic. Imagine a setta illegal Nigerians and Jamaicans could legally have guns under the guise of working for security companies yet the regular businessman cant get a license unless he pay a bribe. Even illegal Chinese getting gun license

[sMASH]

We are not saying to let guns loose all ovah de place.
No, we are saying that the present system for regulation is unjustifiably limited the number of responsible citizens to have legal firearms.
The bandits don't have so much redtape to cut and bearings to 'grease' to become armed.

Banning legally obtained firearms doesn't reduce gun violence conducted with illegal guns. That only increase the ratio of illegal guns to legal guns.

If u need to depend on the law to help u, or even people to abide by the law, u living in your own fantasy land.February made it one whole year that I have been driving with a tail light blown, the bulb fall out of the socket so all u see is reverse and indicator.
I have passed through approximately 11 road blocks, one or two twice as I had to pass back.

Just because u have respect for law and life, doesn't mean those around you will do so, and doesn't mean the authorities will enforce it for you.

When there was a strange car blocking my road so I couldn't get into my yard, I called police, but they did not come nor return the call. Over an hour passed before the owner came looking for his car.
... And this is in the surrounding area where willie was shot in pemberton street. One would think police would pay special attention to high risk areas such as these.

[sMASH]

Talking bout hide foreigners getting guns, they will shoot me if they tell me to put my hands in d air... Cause I will put them on my ear... Cause that is what they sound like to me.

[Slartibartfast]

Yes Duane please try to stay on topic. Imagine a setta illegal Nigerians and Jamaicans could legally have guns under the guise of working for security companies yet the regular businessman cant get a license unless he pay a bribe. Even illegal Chinese getting gun license

Now this is a good point. They should make it illegal for illegal immigrants to possess a firearm. Once they found with one they immediately deported.

For the businessmen, certain precautions can be put in place. Like built in safe to put all $100s that is only unlocked when going to the bank to deposit. Then security firms could be employed to provide an escort.

So let's say 1 team of armed guards can escort 5 people a day and each person does weekly deposits. That's 2 guns serving 35 people (i.e. 95% reduction in the required amount of guns). Not to mention it is easier to ensure that all of them are properly trained to use guns.

And 88sins you have any stats to back up what you said? Car accidents happen multiple times everyday in Trinidad. People being randomly ambushed and held up at gunpoint in their homes do not to my knowledge. But I'll hush my mouth if you provide some stats.

To me the issue with guns is mostly an issue of enforcement. Not an issue of unavailability.

[sMASH]

When u try to apply for it, is tractor loads of grease hst must be applied to get it. Guns are not denied because of logical, rational, definitive reason... Shearly on the mood of the CoP. Which may improve with application of copious amounts of grease.

[Slartibartfast]

I think it would be better to fix that problem than just allow everyone to have guns.

[88sins]

And 88sins you have any stats to back up what you said? Car accidents happen multiple times everyday in Trinidad. People being randomly ambushed and held up at gunpoint in their homes do not to my knowledge. But I'll hush my mouth if you provide some stats.

Firstly, nobody here talking about car accidents.
Secondly, I doh have time for yuh stats requirement, but hold some recent examples in d meantime

http://www.guardian.co.tt/news/2014-11- ... eco-forest
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/Fam ... 70211.html
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/Cas ... 44631.html

& there have been many many many other examples over the last several years.

So feel free to keep quiet now plz

[Redman]

I think it would be better to fix that problem than just allow everyone to have guns.

Show where anybody is advocating everybody having guns.

[cinco]

I WANT BEAR ARMS

[rollingstock]

I'll let you hold mine.

[Slartibartfast]

Sorry there 88sins, it looks like Redman quoted you by mistake on the car accident thing. So that comment shouldn't be aimed at you.

First case, who has $310,000 in cash in their house, smells like an inside job? Second case calls for better policing. Third case is definitely a tradegy but by no means the norm. All I am saying is that the right to bear arms seems like a lazy, poorly thought out "solution" that can potentially do more harm than good and I won't advocate it unless other provisions are put in place and fully enforced.

And 88 sins I was talking about allowing everybody to have guns (I.e. the right to bear arms). I not saying they going to issue guns to all citizens of age.

[Chimera]

First case, who has $310,000 in cash in their house, smells like an inside job? Second case calls for better policing.

.

Due to all the dotishness you have to go tru at banks when making large deposits, many many businessmen have taken to keeping large amounts of cash on hand. Contractors,security company owners, landscaping company owners, all the non-nlcb gambling places.....everyone need cash on hand to pay workers and pay bets

Lots of people keep large amounts of cash home now. Besides all the anti money laundering laws, the long annoying lines and the incidents of people getting robbed outside banks is a big cause for concern.

[cinco]

I'll let you hold mine.

Teehee

[Slartibartfast]

First case, who has $310,000 in cash in their house, smells like an inside job? Second case calls for better policing.

.

Due to all the dotishness you have to go tru at banks when making large deposits, many many businessmen have taken to keeping large amounts of cash on hand. Contractors,security company owners, landscaping company owners, all the non-nlcb gambling places.....everyone need cash on hand to pay workers and pay bets

Lots of people keep large amounts of cash home now. Besides all the anti money laundering laws, the long annoying lines and the incidents of people getting robbed outside banks is a big cause for concern.

Make sense. Now I understand if someone like them wanted to get a gun. With that kind of cash in house they become a traget.

[Redman]

First case, who has $310,000 in cash in their house, smells like an inside job? Second case calls for better policing.

.

Due to all the dotishness you have to go tru at banks when making large deposits, many many businessmen have taken to keeping large amounts of cash on hand. Contractors,security company owners, landscaping company owners, all the non-nlcb gambling places.....everyone need cash on hand to pay workers and pay bets

Lots of people keep large amounts of cash home now. Besides all the anti money laundering laws, the long annoying lines and the incidents of people getting robbed outside banks is a big cause for concern.

Make sense. Now I understand if someone like them wanted to get a gun. With that kind of cash in house they become a traget.

Its the perception of wealth is what makes a target.

Whether or not you actually have the money on location is irrelevant if they are already in your house.

What I would like to see is a serious system that is fair and transparent.With oppressive oversight.

So Slarti wants to carry a fire arm...

Medical,Dental Prints, on file
You agree to submit to regular and random drug tests.
Annual psych exam.
No criminal record.
Insurance bond..
Proper safe at home.


And membership at a range/organization that will facilitate training and certification on an annual basis.

Once you meet the criteria then within 90 days you are issued a permit etc.
It is then the TTPS responsibility to disqualify some one based on their records.

by way of example
as it is now Ive qualified on all the current criteria..on a 2008 application... but was not recommended because I live in a gated community-one of 4 town houses with an auto gate.
(that was the written reason)

At that time I was at serious risk ....making daily cash deposits(CIT was not dependable) and keeping late hrs in the business....


beyond the business sector the reality is that if I am a responsible citizen...and want to be able to defend myself and family if necessary I should be able to...THAT is a right.

[88sins]

First case, who has $310,000 in cash in their house.

On occasion I have had cause to keep as much as 275K in liquid cash either at home or on my person, these things happen.

Second case calls for better policing.

Son, there's only so much the police can do, & so much that can be expected of them. For everything else, there's self preservation & security methods that can be put in place by citizens to defend themselves

Third case is definitely a tradegy but by no means the norm.

Similar events have occurred prior to this one, just that they did not escalate to that extreme but easily could have. Many persons have been tied up, beaten, raped, robbed, & killed in their own homes by armed invaders that are only brave enough because they know the average citizen does not have a means to oppose them. That situ would have gone a lot differently if one or two of the victims were armed.

All I am saying is that the right to bear arms seems like a lazy, poorly thought out "solution" that can potentially do more harm than good and I won't advocate it unless other provisions are put in place and fully enforced.

I & others have mentioned several methods that would facilitate the proliferation of small arms to law abiding trained qualified citizens, that would minimize the risk of abuse of the privilege. Things like mandatory weapon registration, mandatory annual training, psych evaluations, no pistol permits for home protection-shotgun only, random drug tests prior to issue of permit & prior to renewal, applicant must be gainfully employed & a property owner or have permission from said owner, must have home owners insurance or liability insurance coverage in the event of an accidental or wrongful shooting or death, & many other suggestions. All those things are to weed out those that are potentially less than suitable to handle such responsibility.

For you to state that "the right to bear arms seems like a lazy, poorly thought out "solution" that can potentially do more harm than good" & that you "won't advocate it unless other provisions are put in place and fully enforced" is fine, that's your opinion. It just displays evidence that you haven't thoroughly read or comprehended the crux of what this thread is about, & that you have a lot of dependency on other persons & entities for your safety & security. And that's fine too.

If you have no problem depending on somebody else to keep you safe, that may or may not be around when the proverbial SHTF, or whether they may or may not find those guilty of a crime against you, there's nothing wrong with that either. That sort of thinking just shows a totally voluntary lack of independence & responsibility.
You can remain reactive, irresponsible & dependent for as long as you may desire.

I & many others prefer to be proactive, responsible & independent

[rspann]

A lot of people want guns for ranks. The talk about a firearm license like if it is a medal or a trophy,and often boast that they have a licensed firearm. The reason This COP has for not granting as much licenses is a valid one. The more firearms in society (legal) the easier it is for a bandit or aspiring bandit to obtain one .There are people who want firearms ,who drink and get delirious and two slap they lose their firearm.

I had to warn one of my good friend,who is a known car parts dealer about the tight shirt he was wearing showing off his gun. He said he would shoot anyone who try to take it from him. I asked him if he thinks they would announce when they coming ,just come to buy parts and BODOW!There are bandits ,some of them very young ,who ,if they know you have a firearm,would walk up to you and shoot you and take it off your dead body.

Owning a firearm is a serious responsibility and a lot of people who want it ,not ready as yet. I see men getting into minor arguments,who if they have a firearm would take it to another level. The persons clamouring, and paying men twenty thousand dollars to help them get licenses are most of the time not mentally prepared to deal with shooting someone or even taking a life. What you think, if you shoot a bandit ,that is the end of it ? What about if he lives and comes back for you or his brother and friends come knowing you have a gun? You think they coming to ask questions?

Fellas this thing so serious you won't even imagine. Sometimes it is easier to just hand over the cash or car or whatever and continue to live your life normally.

[Redman]

Absolutely valid points spann.

The CoP s position is BULLCHIT.

Its a personal opinion..that validates the protective services failures....also validating the need to empower the citizenry with the ability to defend themselves how they chose.

a weapon is a responsibility that approximates a watless child.....constant awareness is required.

[88sins]

Sometimes it is easier to just hand over the cash or car or whatever and continue to live your life normally.

Easier for whom? Not for the ones being robbed, who had to lose sleep & live thru acid reflux caused by the stress of working themselves to death to get what they have earned.

What about if he lives

highly unlikely, that's the magic of the triple tap

or his brother and friends come knowing you have a gun? You think they coming to ask questions?

I have never heard of an instance where alliances of criminals killed by FUL holders have tried to take retaliative action for their comrades demise, & there is two primary reasons for that.

1-Nobody is going to risk losing their life for the benefit of avenging a corpse
2-There's no loyalty among thieves.

[Chimera]

Yuh watch taken 1 and 2 too much times if yuh feel criminals coming to avenge their fallen comrades.

And its very easy as it is for a criminal to buy a gun.

[Chimera]

Another large group of people who need to keep large amounts of cash on hand are market middlemen. Them fellas does come market with 100000 or more every Friday night to buy goods

[Sundar]

i not gonna depend on someone else to ensure my own personal safety. safety of d community yes. it just easier to get an illegal firearm and keep it hidden. people can't keep a secret and that's how bandit know u have a firearm.

[Slartibartfast]

First case, who has $310,000 in cash in their house, smells like an inside job? Second case calls for better policing.

.

Due to all the dotishness you have to go tru at banks when making large deposits, many many businessmen have taken to keeping large amounts of cash on hand. Contractors,security company owners, landscaping company owners, all the non-nlcb gambling places.....everyone need cash on hand to pay workers and pay bets

Lots of people keep large amounts of cash home now. Besides all the anti money laundering laws, the long annoying lines and the incidents of people getting robbed outside banks is a big cause for concern.

Make sense. Now I understand if someone like them wanted to get a gun. With that kind of cash in house they become a traget.

Its the perception of wealth is what makes a target.

Whether or not you actually have the money on location is irrelevant if they are already in your house.

What I would like to see is a serious system that is fair and transparent.With oppressive oversight.

So Slarti wants to carry a fire arm...

Medical,Dental Prints, on file
You agree to submit to regular and random drug tests.
Annual psych exam.
No criminal record.
Insurance bond..
Proper safe at home.


And membership at a range/organization that will facilitate training and certification on an annual basis.

Once you meet the criteria then within 90 days you are issued a permit etc.
It is then the TTPS responsibility to disqualify some one based on their records.

by way of example
as it is now Ive qualified on all the current criteria..on a 2008 application... but was not recommended because I live in a gated community-one of 4 town houses with an auto gate.
(that was the written reason)

At that time I was at serious risk ....making daily cash deposits(CIT was not dependable) and keeping late hrs in the business....


beyond the business sector the reality is that if I am a responsible citizen...and want to be able to defend myself and family if necessary I should be able to...THAT is a right.

This I could get behind. An allowance to bear firearms once you show you are of sound mind and character as well as meet the other criteria on an ongoing basis.

I think one of the main reasons for the arguments is that most of you don't realise what a "right" is. If there was the right to bear arms then that means anyone can go into a Guns'r'us and buy a gun and live ammunition combo and walk out. This I would never support in Trinidad.

[rspann]

I know of people who shot bandits and paid for it with their lives, Bunny Samlal a real estate dealer,comes to mind, and I know of others . While I agree with the right to bear arms, you have to balance it with the society we live in and the mentality of some trinis who can't control their temper.Also the little monsters who have no regard for life who would kill you for your gun,must be given some consideration. I know of people who fight for their rights and are dead. Remember the young guy in St Augustine who fight for his civic and got killed? Bandits serious when they coming and there are businessmen who are not able to defend themselves even with a firearm.

[rspann]

i not gonna depend on someone else to ensure my own personal safety. safety of d community yes. it just easier to get an illegal firearm and keep it hidden. people can't keep a secret and that's how bandit know u have a firearm.

[rspann]

That's true but it's more like they want everybody to know they packing.

[88sins]

Rights are different to privileges, in that rights must not & cannot be denied. And there is no right greater or more important than one's right to self preservation.

Self defense is a right we are all born with everywhere, it's just that in T&T that we are denied the tools to properly exercise that right.
Right now as is, if you are found with a knife in your pocket while in public you can be arrested & charged with carrying an offensive weapon & make a jail. All because you prefer not to wait for the popo while some deviant decides to end your existence.

[Redman]

I know of people who shot bandits and paid for it with their lives, Bunny Samlal a real estate dealer,comes to mind, and I know of others . While I agree with the right to bear arms, you have to balance it with the society we live in and the mentality of some trinis who can't control their temper.Also the little monsters who have no regard for life who would kill you for your gun,must be given some consideration. I know of people who fight for their rights and are dead. Remember the young guy in St Augustine who fight for his civic and got killed? Bandits serious when they coming and there are businessmen who are not able to defend themselves even with a firearm.

Well for me -if some one is after my car wallet etc take it.
If I find you in the car...I really will just call the police ....I probably will not intervene.

My sole concern is family ....if I wake up and you in the house I think you are fair game.
I want the RIGHT to shoot first.

I think that is my right-in these times the reality is that weapons are available to any one who wants one.
So Im at a disadvantage if Im expected to be in a confrontation, to assess justifiable force and then react.....a house invasion at 2 in the AM isnt about borrowing a cup of sugar.