N/A anyone?

[RASC]

It has just been a little observation of mine...

How come i dont hear any good stories of naturally aspirated honda engines running back home in trini..to me its like everybody taking the easy way out and jus boosting the sheit out of their motors...nobody in my honest observations has been taking the time to do some major N/A work...to the degree im seeing over in the states... WHY IS THAT?

[kes_vtec]

nah man... my twincam project is N/A... i boosting the SOHC to learn about boost... i am one of the honda guys that don't really like boosting hondas....

[RASC]

cool man..cause it just seems as if honda tuners home missing the point of high compression engines/vtec and reliabilty...men just turning up the boost, and calling that george...i not hearing of tuners doing any major port work, boreing of blocks....type R cams+b16a bottoms...well you get my idea..most men just wanna turn up the boost and see what happens

i glad you are one of the few..what exactly are you running?

[kes_vtec]

right now .. 1.5 sohc vtec hondata, buyin' turbo parts still buying... the twincam goin tuh be a 9 mouth build before it goes in the car... hopping to build a high compression high rev killer...

[X2]

Don't frighten meng... I've raced some impressive B16's down here so far. I don't think many people are going all out with aftermarket cams and port work, etc... but you never know what's under the hood next to you.

The reasons you might not see big n/a builds are many. One of course is the lure of turbo... easy power.... and many people are mis informed and build time bombs. The other is displacement. Not many B18's or larger were brought into the country, so if you want big displacement, you're gunna pay out the wang. So why don't they sleeve and bore ? Sleeving is a precise operation... thus far I don't know any shops that can do it reliably. Even big shops in the states run into problems when they try it and do it wrong.

As for ported heads, etc... that's a black art that must learnt from an expert or from YEARS of practice... every manufacturer's head is different, so you'd need someone with lots of Honda experience... again... hard to find here, and if you gotta bring one in Trini... imagine the cost... $800-$1000 USD PLUS core charge (head), shipping, duty... egad.... not to mention the cost of new cams, springs, seals and all the shipping, duty, etc... for what ? Less power than the most inexpensive of turbo setups ? People just not willing to do it, I figure.

The last reasons and my #1 & 2 complaints ? No dedicated n/a tuners and we can't rely on the quality of the octane. If anything, aside from displacement, compression is what will make n/a power... and pump gas octane will limit our compression ceiling. If we had a constant quality 93... we could prolly see mid 12's on daily driven cars... but do you trust NP to supply ? I for one will say... on 2 different tanks of gas....my engine which is well below 12:1, started pinging like a mofo when I threw some aggressive timing at it on our '95'. (The tune I used was made with US 93 octane from Shell)

I love boost, but I am working on an n/a setup for the time being. My goal is to get into the 13's minimum (at Wallers !) straight up n/a.

[TriniParts.com]

i belong to the n/a club

AND i non-vtec too. i will reach my limit of about 160whp soon (with only bolt on performance).

[dragaholic]

MEEEEE TO.

[crazybalhead]

Doh worry, it have men, they just don't talk on Trinituner much.

[DrunkenMaster16]

im N/A..... B16a2 allmotor baby! ( id rather be boosted.)

[skindog]

I'm building N/A if only i can my sh!t to work right....

[RASC]

X2 love the responce..and other tuners thank you...

Well i think the mentality has to be chagned ecspecially with you honda guys back home...its soo easy to jus put a turbo on..i mean in comparrison to a N/A build up...if you really think about it if you a die hard and hardcore i say go N/A and firetruck up all them men talk boost this boost that because frankly for all them men running boost out there and jus doing 13's thats real shiet i seeing men at the track here doing 13's all night and driving that LS motored hatch home NOW THATS WHAT I CALL A KILLAH

and for any TUNER out there who can have a N/A build doing numbers like that home...MAJOR PROPS for going against the norm and i respect you for that and for the men building up such projects all the best of luck

[skindog]

Cool bro.. my view is that most honda ppl not willing to take up the challenge or the extra expense to build N/A so it's easier for them to just slap on a turbo kit and run with that.... just my view....

[havokkk]

the merits of engine-building SHOULD better understood. n/a projects really make builders out of drivers you see and the complexities of engine tuning becoming less and less intimidating as tuners learn just how the mill makes power.

that said... engine-building is costly and time consuming, more than an f/i or sprayed project with equivalent power output. cost really becomes limiting (at least it's been for me .) shipping, import duties and tax drive up the cost of these high end n/a parts as well. an' if ah spen' any more money on de car... ah feel dat gyul go leave meh fuh shure. steups

so anyways... n/a will be a long term project for me, with boost in the short run, that i could still zip around... sorta the opposite of you guys, i know... but it's what i can afford.

and HUTRINI... wha's de deal with dat avatar, hoss?!

[RASC]

^^^you real late meng..thas mih gyal sweet eh

[R. Mutt]

There's a sincere brutmess and artful soul to N/A tuning. It's like "The Engine that could"....and I love it. There is so much time, money and passion that goes into that kind of buildup that the owner and mechanic end up becoming one with the car. I can definetly see where your coming from with respect to earning that 13 second timeslip with a N/A car 4 banger.

If I have the opportunity later in life to have to build one, I will definetly go through with it.

[X2]

If I have the opportunity later in life to have to build one, I will definetly go through with it.

Last nite, my wife put it best when DrunkMaster asked about doing a build, her response was, "It's not easy, be prepared for the heart-ache."

Couldn't have put it better myself.

[RASC]

yeh and thats the sad thing im seeing at home...men dont wanna go through and do that sheit properly...they just wanna go fast..and not even do it properly and thoughfully...even if its boosted or N/A...they jus thing.."damn i go buy a turbo from so and so...get a intercooler do that ...run 880 injectors and i go be boosting to like 30 psi and mash up everybody"..like the arseholes they are they will go now do that sheit and run for about a day and a half..firetruck blow up and through the motor away...ppl back home not ready jed..they just not on that hardcore level yet..IMHO, most of what i seeing is ppl following...jus following what they read and what they hear..not realising that most ppl dont tell all their secrets...ECSPECIALLY FOR THOSE MAGAZINE ARTICLES YOU READ
Half these cars back home wouldnt even make it on a track up here..they would get tear the firetruck up from some small man with a small n/a hatch...all them men who play they boosting and only running 14 thas real sheit...TIME TO STEP UP PEOPLE...i gone

[X2]

Doh get tie up eh... there are real men going REAL fast down here... just not many Hondas. I see a turbo integra (rsx) down here... the man running anywhere from mid 15's to mid 13's... lorse... I felt sorry for the RSX men that day...lol

But what's going on down here I see, is that too many fellas want quick power, so they go boost and when they do... is a set of ratchife (sp?) Men trying to run the cheapest alternative and expect to get the best results. Many don't understand that sometimes... a motor can take months and months before it blows. If you are going turbo... just like anything else... you should do it the right way, not the cheapest way. Mis-matched turbos, badly sized i/c's, wrong fueling, bad or no tuning... hey... so WHAT ? Better for me when I rest it on dem with no boost and no juice....

[RASC]

turbo rsx running 13's only kinda weak man...i mean there a number of guys...far more than my fingers and toes..up by me running 12's-13's naturally...so a turboed rsx only doing 13's seems weak to me

but again the point you making is valid...jus solidifying what im saying...

[W2J]

what is the cost to build a NA vers Turbo ? what kind of Fuel is needed on a High Compression vers Turbo engines for Daily driving ? What kind of Temp you go be running with that high Compression daily driven here in the tropics ? How much noise of a High Compression engine have to make vers a Turbo engine ? Some food for taught. BTW I drive a Mitsubishi not a Honda and there were built NA Hondas that ran very good time here in Trinidad. Hutrini you also have to remember because of Factors like Temperature, Road or Track Conditions, Sea Level (pressures) those same 12's Honda will not do that here in Trinidad. Ask X2 he is a perfect example. I think it take much more skill to Build, Tune a Turbo engine that a NA.

[RASC]

^^example of a guy who doesnt know much of what he speaks...it takes more to build a turbo than a N/A..damn thats some high grade sheit you smoking man

[RASC]

you seem to forget that the united states of america during the summer months gets hotter than you have ever experienced in trini..(continental interior)..firstly...secondly the main reason why the car wont run 12's back home is because of the sheit track..and the lack of know how on mixing fuels and octane boosters properly etc etc..so do try to come chain up my head with yuh talk...sea level..florida is flat as can be..and a difference in sea level as in trini vs..... lets take fl again for an example, isnt going to be so much that its going to adversely affect your time ...and finally..dont be refering me to ask no man how he did his sheit...dont ever judge a book by its cover or its post count SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT

Its simple, men jus dont wanna take the time man...and i know with a little patience and a lil bit more technical knowledge trinis could more than pull off them times...so dont sit there trying to preach to me with yuh lame arse EXCUSES.

[R. Mutt]

what is the cost to build a NA vers Turbo ? what kind of Fuel is needed on a High Compression vers Turbo engines for Daily driving ? What kind of Temp you go be running with that high Compression daily driven here in the tropics ? How much noise of a High Compression engine have to make vers a Turbo engine ? Some food for taught. BTW I drive a Mitsubishi not a Honda and there were built NA Hondas that ran very good time here in Trinidad. Hutrini you also have to remember because of Factors like Temperature, Road or Track Conditions, Sea Level (pressures) those same 12's Honda will not do that here in Trinidad. Ask X2 he is a perfect example. I think it take much more skill to Build, Tune a Turbo engine that a NA.

I agree with you on alot of this stuff: namely the noise and octane factors associated with built na engines. Just as a well built turbo engine uses low compression pistons a na built engine should utilize high compression pistons. I get where your coming from with the octane factor but turbo cars have to deal with that as well...though it plays a significant role as compression increases drastically. I am sure you know all this as you are a hardcore tuner...so I'm not dictating.

I just think that Hutrini (though he didn't say it precisely like this) is regarding na tuning as a more technical than turbo. As he stated it is not uncommon to see guys utilize custom turbo setups with variable diameter piping throught the engine, an extra injector for fuel and larger fuelpump without an adjustable fuel regulator. Both na and turbo tuning, when done properly cost money...hence everyone wants the easy route.

I don't think local na tuners are afraid to go this route..I think the two main factors that work against them are the expeses of this route after bolt-ons. Let's face it, after your bolt-ons there is nothing left for those men to start building the head...and then if they complete that: the block. This is where the financial aspect kicks in an ost people are fuked. While you can go about doing custom work like X2 explained to get a turbo kit setup there ain't no easy way out for na tuning after u max out the bold ons. You either spend the big bucks or salt.......cool we all understand this

NOW: Americans have the luxury of ebay, a variety of shops and a close netted frame work of tuners to assist them with obtaining valves, retainers, valve springs, cams etc. Have you noticed the trend with na tuning might be to throw on type R cams? Well that's somewhat accessable to us because of the market...but not these high end brands like Skunk2, Edelbrock, Jun etc. We talkin money man...and many guys have a budget that are running na. They have a family, mortgage and all kinda drama. The fun comes after that.

The American market is saturated with second hand parts and junk yards. I'm a resident Assistant at my university and am responsible for my floor. One of the guys on the floor has a fukin R34 GT-R, he and his padna found it in a junk yard up state and bought it between themselves...just college students...now with the help of their padnas they stripped it, fixed the damage and race it...imagine that. It is highly unlikely that such a scenario would play out in Trinidad....they know what you want and how much to sell it.

I'm saying that there is a different kind of access to parts here and locally. Before all these youths spent their money on turbo kits they would spend alot of money on n/a parts...and when it came time to move on to bigger things like boost, they would sell the parts and use whatever they have to help fund the next mod. Look at Mr.Aboud struggling to sell those expensive high end parts on 2nr...but I'm confident he already knew that when deciding that he was going turbo.

All I am saying jed...as all of u know, it boils down to where ur located and cash....cash is king.

[W2J]

^^example of a guy who doesnt know much of what he speaks...it takes more to build a turbo than a N/A..damn thats some high grade sheit you smoking man

Clearly you dont know who I am or what I drive. If you did you would not even attempt to make that assumption. I will leave it at that.

[RASC]

mr. mutt or whatever

you seem to forget that up here they import those things from japan at rediculous prices...where as we get JDM direct...and very very cheap compared to how much parts cost in america..you know that, i know that, everybody does...the prices of cars ..now thats another issue

In trini we have the big luxury of the bamboo...which has everything JDM...now you know when you tell yuh american tuner buddies about that their eyes get big big as if they saw a miilion dollars on their door step--ebay cant compare to the amount of stuff we have JDM in the bamboo...price wise and MAYBE quantity wise...

[Dirty Face]

hutrini, it takes just as much, if not more, tuning wise to build a turbo engine, just like w2j said.

I think the main limitation in TT to buidling n/a is the lack of sleeving, I mean if your going to go all out you need to get a bigger bore and end up having to sleeve, since no one in TT is sleeveing than you have to send it to the us. Since the cost of sleeving for turbo and NA is the same the men (and with $$ tight is only a few) who have to spend all that money to sleeve and buy new pistons and rods, cam, headwork etc, (we already talking like 5K us) figure well what the hell Im going through all that already why limit myself to 250 or 300 WHP (about the max end NA)when I could just slap on a turbo and make a couple other changes and get 500 WHp instead. Furthermore no one in TT is going to tune my NA motor to the level that it needs to be to extract every single HP and get those numbers, where with turbo seeing I have so much HP to play with I could afford to lose a couple here or there.

Additionally TT has no "all-motor" class, its by time whether you running bOost spray na or whatever. In the US there are all motor classes so there is a payoff to running NA, literally. So the drive is not there financially.

Furthermore the NA boys in the US get a huge break in their 60 Ft times where they make a killing over the turbo guys.. in TT because of poor track conditions even that advantage is lost.Your comparing apples and oranges.

Lasly we look at TT pride In tt, if I raced you for $100 and you beat me and I was NA and you were boosted few people come away saying "yeah biy he lose eh but that was pretty good for all motor" instead you may get " Well he is ah ass what he expect and the man running turbo and he only have a stupid na 4 cylinder" (well you get my drift) so the NA man saying but wait I spend a 10k US between engine and ecu and suspension etc and only getting so and so times with my 250 WHP while a 5 K us would have gotten me a stock gsr engine with boost making over 300whp.


I love all motor...yuh ever hear a ctr engine with no intake when vtec open?? SWEET...but all in all I cant blame them.

[hilux junkie]

^^example of a guy who doesnt know much of what he speaks...it takes more to build a turbo than a N/A..damn thats some high grade sheit you smoking man

WTF this man talking bout i find w2j made some very good points. you had to be a lil boy going to school... btw u have a car as yet?.. cause surley u talking real sheit breds. when yuh doh know nuttin u must keep quiet.. the man was not saying that turbo is better than n/a read before u post brother

[X2]

W2J... boy, you demonstrating plenty restraint. Props.

But here's my $0.02 on what has been said...

what is the cost to build a NA vers Turbo ? what kind of Fuel is needed on a High Compression vers Turbo engines for Daily driving ? What kind of Temp you go be running with that high Compression daily driven here in the tropics ? How much noise of a High Compression engine have to make vers a Turbo engine ?

As far as fuel... you can make MUCH more power on the same octane w/ boost than n/a. N/A cars are affected by ambient temps much more also (they lose lots of power on a hot day) The cost to build ? I've done full builds on both, same platform, same engine and N/A costs more hands down.

...you also have to remember because of Factors like Temperature, Road or Track Conditions, Sea Level (pressures) those same 12's Honda will not do that here

Has ALOT to do with the track... BUT I believe the humidity in Trini is higher than most states (even FL), high humidity isn't good for power production.

I think it take much more skill to Build, Tune a Turbo engine that a NA.

Gotta disagree there... as I mentioned, an N/A build is more expensive and more meticulous than turbo. If you wanna know why... I'll list just a couple things... N/A tolerances run much tighter than for an FI app. The pistons will be more vulnerable to detonation, so piston prep methods must be strict. N/A makes power by revving HIGH... that puts a hurting on the bearings and oiling system. Head Work ? Blah... headwork on a turbo car is EASY compared to an N/A head. (Not that port work is easy, eh... I talking 'relative') make a mistake on an N/A head and it's bye-bye powerband. I can go on and on... but let's talk tuning ! Turbo cars are pretty easy to tune by comparison... you can actually tune a boosted car 'safely'... but N/A tuning is dangerous meng... n/a pretty much runs on the ragged edge of fuel and timing. Ever little bit counts, you can't turn up the boost to make more power when you're n/a... you must work with what you got... and when what you got runs out of juice... you need to make magic happen on the dyno. I've seen MANY tuners back off timing or drop boost levels to be 'on the safe side' You'll rarely see than happen on a serious n/a tuning session.

and the lack of know how on mixing fuels and octane boosters properly etc etc..

HAHA... doh chain up yuhself... fellas in the states don't know how to mix fuel at all. I only know ONE man that could... an ole school domestic tuner. Majority of US tuners have no clue about fuel blending (I'm sure the same holds true here)

A turbo engine can have dynamic compression ratios WORLDS away from what any n/a car can run on the same octane ! No octane booster in the world is gunna get you there.

Look at Mr.Aboud struggling to sell those expensive high end parts on 2nr...

Those parts will sell to people who KNOW what they're worth. Most locals will just shop based on price... and it's sad to say... that's not the way you build a high quality, top notch setup. Cost should be looked at second... quality/performance first...that's how you build a monster.

[RASC]

^^example of a guy who doesnt know much of what he speaks...it takes more to build a turbo than a N/A..damn thats some high grade sheit you smoking man

WTF this man talking bout i find w2j made some very good points. you had to be a lil boy going to school... btw u have a car as yet?.. cause surley u talking real sheit breds. when yuh doh know nuttin u must keep quiet.. the man was not saying that turbo is better than n/a read before u post brother

As far as I am concerned, everyone on this site has the right to say what they please with out you so called "police" trying to attack them. Secondly I may be young but that does not make me a "lil boy" or what ever derogatory term you wish to call me. Thirdly I bet if you knew me you wouldve never made those type of comments, I dont like to create enemies and I'm usually in a happy mood, so I'm sure W2J isnt going to kick up a fuss over my comments, it's all part of the forum and the discussion---boy. I never said a turbo was better either, clearly you didnt read what i said. I just noted the its more difficult for N/A applications and tuning. Oh yeh I have owned a car, but honestly thats none of your business.

And anyway what or who are you...oh sheit lemme guess another one of those "balls lickers" I so accustomed to see on this site i could just imagine you after writing that responce....thinking in your mind "Damn I hope they accept me now ET4L, ESSSSSRRRR, THAT HAVE VTECKKK?"

So in conclusion , breaking from character--->NEXT TIME YOU POST IN THIS FORUM READ WHAT YOU TYPE BEFORE YOU POST OR ELSE JUST STFU BEFORE YOU GET FAWKED UP!

Now back to the dicussion at hand

[RASC]

X2's Post would be a bit long to quote so im just going to refer to it...scroll up to get a better hand on what he says.

Thank You, it is much more intense when it comes to n/a tuning, alot of blood and sweat, from what i have witnessed with their rides out here, its downright killer. Men slave over their rides just to achieve that extra 5 whp, working from what they have got. I'm not saying that doesn't happen with turboed cars but its a little bit more time consuming and stressful when you dealing with N/A high compression motors.
The comment with the mixing of fuels, I have to agree with you many of what you see over here is not gold and most certainly not always correct It's just like i not seeing that much talk going on in trini where men going into the chemical proceedures they go to achieve more power with mixing fuels, men just doing trail and error proceedures(correct me if I'm wrong.)
The original question was why arent more men going the all motor route...many valid and some irrelevant reasons where posted...most valid being the fuel octane we have home, the sheit track and the lack of professionals doing the jobs
all other reasons to me sound like excusues...cause if you really wanted to earn respect trust me ...seeing a N/A hatch killing an STI, then being driven home...i say no more.