The Religion Discussion

[megadoc1]

But you are missing the point

how so? I only stated a fact!!!!!.. advancement in science came this far even in a time when there was more religious control or influence, how can there be a problem now? can you answer this?

The people may have been religious but what role did religion or religious teachings play in the development of technology? None!

two points
1.show me the source along with your data and maybe I would consider to make an effort to refute.... but as for now this is just "HOT AIR"
2. this have nothing to do with the issue I raised, in fact most think that religion was against or anti science, so religion, not having a roll in science is not the issue here but the opposition to science is what I am talking about..my point was, in the midst of all this, science came thru..so what is the problem now? seeing that things are not like it was back then when there was more religious control/influence...

Bill Nye may have an agenda however just as you feel religion should be taught in schools, he feels children should be taught science.

correction! bill nye thinks only the IDEA of evolution should be taught in schools but not the IDEA of an intelligent creator ..note:both IDEAS cannot and have not been proven at this time..

From what I gather, atheists don't put effort in promoting atheism the way religions promote themselves and try to convert the masses. Atheists do encourage science though.

lol...same difference!

so duane do you agree that religion is holding back science?

[AdamB]

Bill Nye probably trying to bring up the literacy level of Americans. The problem is not religion because it's not taught in their schools. Possibly the problem is the high cost of college education which it's ironic if they cut the high budget in their SPACE PROGRAMME then maybe they could afford to give free science education!!

[AdamB]

How Islam kick started science

Keith Devlin on the debt of influence that science, culture and technology owe to Islam

The Guardian, Thursday 5 September 2002 02.54 BST

Today, mention of the word Islam can, to some, conjure up images of terrorists flying planes full of people into buildings, all in the name, they say, of God.
In an equally sad vein, the word Baghdad brings to mind Saddam Hussein. Both images are as unrepresentative as they are understandable, a sad reflection on the ease with which a handful of fanatics can hijack not just a plane but an entire cultural heritage and its associated religion.

For those of us in mathematics, the sadness is even greater. For the culture that these fanatics claim to represent when they set about trying to destroy the modern world of science and technology was, in fact, the cradle in which that tradition was nurtured.

For all present-day mathematicians and scientists are children of Islam. Following the advent of Islam in the seventh century, Islamic forces attacked and conquered all of North Africa, most of the Middle East, and even parts of Western Europe.

The capital of this empire, Baghdad, was established on the Tigris River. Its location made it a natural crossroads, the place where East and West could meet. Baghdad quickly became a major cultural centre. With the emergence of a new dynasty, the Abbasids, in the 8th century, the Islamic Empire started to settle down politically, and conditions emerged in which mathematics and science could be pursued.

Early in the 9th century, the Abbasid caliphs adopted a deliberate approach to the cultural and intellectual growth of the empire. They established the House of Wisdom, an academy of science, and gathered manuscripts in Greek and Sanskrit, and scholars who could understand them.

Important Greek and Indian mathematical books were translated and studied, leading to a new era of scientific creativity that was to last until the 14th century. One of the first Greek texts translated was Euclid's classic geometry text Elements.

This had a huge impact; Arabic mathematicians then adopted a very Greek approach, formulating theorems precisely and proving them formally in Euclid's style. Like Greek mathematics, which was defined more by the common language in which it was written and carried out than the nationality of the practitioners, Arabic mathematics was determined largely by the common use of Arabic by scholars of many nationalities, spread throughout the Islamic Empire.

One of the earliest and most distinguished of the Arabic mathematicians was the 9th century scholar Abu Ja'far Mohammed ibn Musa Al-Khwarizmi, an astronomer to the caliph at Baghdad. His full name can be translated as "Father of Ja'far, Mohammed, son of Moses, native of the town of Al-Khwarizmi".

Al-Khwarizmi wrote several enormously influential books. One, in particular, describes how to write numbers and compute with them using the place-value decimal system we use today, which had been developed in India some time before 600 AD.

This book would, when translated into Latin 300 years later, prove a major source for Europeans who wanted to learn the new system. Today, we know it as the Hindu-Arabic system. It is taught to schoolchildren worldwide.

Many translations of the book began with the phrase " dixit Algorismi " ("so says Al-Khwarizmi"), a practice that led to the adoption in medieval times of the term "algorism" to refer to the process of computing with the Hindu-Arabic numerals.

"Algorithm" is an obvious derivation. Another of Al- Khwarizmi's manuscripts was called Kitab al jabr w'al-muqabala , which translates roughly as "restoration and compensation".

The book is essentially an algebra text. It opens with a discussion of quadratic equations, then goes on to some practical geometry, followed by simple linear equations, and ends with a long section on how to apply mathematics to solve inheritance problems. The Englishman Robert of Chester translated the algebra book from Arabic into Latin in 1145. Such was the influence of this work that the Arabic phrase al jabr in the book's title gave rise to our modern word "algebra". After Al-Khwarizmi, algebra became an important part of Arabic mathematics.

Arabic mathematicians learned to manipulate polynomials, to solve certain algebraic equations and more. For modern readers, used to thinking of algebra as the manipulation of symbols, it is important to realise that the Arabic mathematicians did not use symbols. Everything was done in words. It was largely through translations of the Arabic texts into Latin that western Europe, freshly emerged from the Dark Ages, kick-started its mathematics in the 10th and subsequent centuries, paving the way for the scientific revolution in the 17th century and thence to the scientific and technological world we now take for granted.

Without the dedication of the Islamic scholars of the 9th to the 14th century, it is not clear that Western Europe would have become the world leader in science and technology. And it is also unlikely that the United States would have inherited that leadership role.
I suspect that Osama bin Laden, as an educated man from a wealthy family, is fully aware of the crucial role played by Islam in the development of the West's scientific tradition. I doubt the same is true for his supporters in the streets of Iraq and Pakistan.

Ignorance, we used to say, is bliss. Maybe that was once the case, although I doubt it. The clear message of September 11 and the events that have unfolded since then, is that ignorance is dangerous, leaving gullible individuals open to manipulation by evil men. It is also deeply sad, particularly for mathematicians and scientists.

[AdamB]

Islam’s scientific heritage may be one reason why Muslims in general seem untroubled by modern science. There is also a popular belief that science tends to confirm, rather than contradict, what is written in the Qur’an. Many Muslims claim that their holy book contains scientific information which could not possibly have been known to the Prophet or anyone else in seventh-century Mecca – and this is cited as evidence that the Qur’an must have come directly from God. One of the best-known examples is the claim that the Qur’an accurately describes various stages in the development of the foetus; another is that when the Qur’an talks about a “protection” against the sun it is referring to the ozone layer. As far as evolution is concerned, the Qur’an provides less than the Bible for anti-Darwinists to get their teeth into. It portrays God as the creative force behind the universe but – unlike the Book of Genesis in the Bible – does not go into detail about the creation process. It says God made “every living thing” from water; that He created humans from clay and that He created them “in stages. In the view of many Muslims, this clearly allows scope for evolutionary interpretations

Farida Faouzia Charfi, a science professor at the University of Tunis, notes that even the most fervent religious believers can be enthusiastic about science. “In those countries where fundamentalism has taken hold among the youth in the universities, it is striking to observe that the fundamentalist students are in a majority in the scientific institutions,” she writes – adding that “fundamentalists are even more numerous in the engineering than the science faculties”.
This, Charfi says, often surprises westerners because they tend to assume “that a scientific mind is of necessity modern”, but Islamists reject modernity only up to a point: they “want to govern society with ideas of the past and the technical means of modernity”. One example she cites is an election rally in Algeria where Islamists used laser technology to project the words “Allahu akbar” (“God is greatest”) on to a cloud in the sky. Al-Qa‘ida’s activities – its use of videos and the internet plus, of course, crashing airliners into buildings – provide numerous other examples.

[pioneer]

Well if islam believes in science they would understand the elementary concept that in order for something to exist, it must be relative to space and time.

Even thoughts exist, think about it.

You speak of education, why it is most if not all muslims insist that their daughters do not become educated but instead subject themselves to a man to bear offspring?


Again, what's with all the copypasts with no source?

Oh right, that's how the koran was created, copy/paste/regurgitate what other religions said.

[AdamB]

Well if islam believes in science they would understand the elementary concept that in order for something to exist, it must be relative to space and time.
Space and time is not required for the existence of ALLAH. HE is the Creator of those things and everything HE has created needs HIM for their continued existence and sustenance.
ALLAH has the POWER and ABILITY to do ALL THINGS!!!

Even thoughts exist, think about it.
Even down to our thoughts (and actions) ALLAH has created, you think about it. For you may have assumed that these concepts are new to Islam but rather muslims are the true PIONEERS!!

You speak of education, why it is most if not all muslims insist that their daughters do not become educated but instead subject themselves to a man to bear offspring?
Muslim women have always been the most educated when compared to others. Right here in T&T muslim women are doctors, lawyers, engineers, whatever field you can think of, even Parliamentarians and the current Deputy Speaker of the House.
You are confusing the culture of some people with the ideals of the religion. That's two totally opposite realities. People of the Middle East have a culture of tribalism and natural hardship due to their desert climate. Despite that muslim women have been business owners, teachers and have had the right to own property from 1400+ years ago. I challenge you to say from how long ago women in the West have had the same right.

Again, what's with all the copypasts with no source? Because if I said it, you would say I am only expressing MY OPINION. However, I have posted from a source outside of the Islamic fraternity (UK Guardian) to show you that the information is not biased and can be verified (a requirement for continuous improvement, mr Kaizen...U AWARE??).
Just for you:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2002/ ... h.science2
http://www.al-bab.com/arab/islam_and_evolution.htm

Plus a bonus: http://www.scienceislam.com/evolution_creation.php
Oh right, that's how the koran was created, copy/paste/regurgitate what other religions said.

The Qur'aan was NOT CREATED!! It is the WORD of ALLAH. Neither ALLAH Nor HIS ATTRIBUTES (incl the Qur'aan) is CREATED.

[stickman]

I haven't visited this thread in a while and you're still trying to justify Islam.

Funny that you mention the word "objective" a few posts ago. There is no objective proof of God/Allah. You can only believe in him via faith which clouds your logic and and ability to think unbiased.

[AdamB]

I haven't visited this thread in a while and you're still trying to justify Islam.

Funny that you mention the word "objective" a few posts ago. There is no objective proof of God/Allah. You can only believe in him via faith which clouds your logic and and ability to think unbiased.

Wrong!! Logic and ability to think unbiased is what instils faith in the heart of the believer.

[MG Man]

The Qur'aan was NOT CREATED!! It is the WORD of ALLAH. Neither ALLAH Nor HIS ATTRIBUTES (incl the Qur'aan) is CREATED.[/quote]

proof?

[AdamB]

The Qur'aan was NOT CREATED!! It is the WORD of ALLAH. Neither ALLAH Nor HIS ATTRIBUTES (incl the Qur'aan) is CREATED.

proof?[/quote]
MG,
It's what we believe and to us (believers) it's as real as the sun rising in the east each day.

Seeing is not believing when it comes to faith. That's like the Pharoah in the time of Moses who WHEN THE WATER OF THE RED SEA WAS RELEASED TO DROWN HIM AND HIS SOLDIERS THEN HE PROFESSED FAITH IN THE GOD OF MOSES!! BUT FOR SOME WHEN DEATH IS IMMINENT, THEN IT IS TOO LATE FOR REPENTANCE AND PROFESSION OF FAITH (IN ORDER TO BE SAVED FROM THE FIRE OF HELL).

[MG Man]

then rephrase your statement to say 'we believe the koran was not created etc etc etc

[AdamB]

then rephrase your statement to say 'we believe the koran was not created etc etc etc

MG,
This is a religion discussion and you of all ppl should know by now that we post what WE BELIEVE.

Why don't you reciprocate to the atheists (and others) who don't have REAL PROOF of their scientific theories and statements, etc?

[MG Man]

then rephrase your statement to say 'we believe the koran was not created etc etc etc

MG,
This is a religion discussion and you of all ppl should know by now that we post what WE BELIEVE.

Why don't you reciprocate to the atheists (and others) who don't have REAL PROOF of their scientific theories and statements, etc?

I am so glad you have stated this eh
if this is what you BELIEVE, then now can you possibly condemn the beliefs of others?
How can you categorically say hindus and christians and bhuddists and atheists are all wrong, when you know to yourself that your chosen path is based purely on personal belief and not rooted in fact?
The only way you can categorically tell people you are right, is by having the facts to back it up....otherwise you are damn wrong in condemning others

[AdamB]

then rephrase your statement to say 'we believe the koran was not created etc etc etc

MG,
This is a religion discussion and you of all ppl should know by now that we post what WE BELIEVE.

Why don't you reciprocate to the atheists (and others) who don't have REAL PROOF of their scientific theories and statements, etc?

I am so glad you have stated this eh
if this is what you BELIEVE, then now can you possibly condemn the beliefs of others?
How can you categorically say hindus and christians and bhuddists and atheists are all wrong, when you know to yourself that your chosen path is based purely on personal belief and not rooted in fact?
The only way you can categorically tell people you are right, is by having the facts to back it up....otherwise you are damn wrong in condemning others

I glad you feel glad, thank Allah for that.

I don't look at it as condemning but rather as WARNING from imminent doom!! My basis, logic and statements of the revealed texts. Real verifiable evidence would reveal that they have been tampered with (except the Qur'aan) so man now follow their misguided desires, NOT approved by GOD ALMIGHTY.

These statements I think is applicable on this thread subject.

[MG Man]

sorry eh but for a hundred years after le prophet's death, there were differing versions circulating befor everyone agreed on the final edit
do your research and see for yourself

[Kasey]

then rephrase your statement to say 'we believe the koran was not created etc etc etc

MG,
This is a religion discussion and you of all ppl should know by now that we post what WE BELIEVE.

Why don't you reciprocate to the atheists (and others) who don't have REAL PROOF of their scientific theories and statements, etc?

I am so glad you have stated this eh
if this is what you BELIEVE, then now can you possibly condemn the beliefs of others?
How can you categorically say hindus and christians and bhuddists and atheists are all wrong, when you know to yourself that your chosen path is based purely on personal belief and not rooted in fact?
The only way you can categorically tell people you are right, is by having the facts to back it up....otherwise you are damn wrong in condemning others

I glad you feel glad, thank Allah for that.

I don't look at it as condemning but rather as WARNING from imminent doom!! My basis, logic and statements of the revealed texts. Real verifiable evidence would reveal that they have been tampered with (except the Qur'aan) so man now follow their misguided desires, NOT approved by GOD ALMIGHTY.

These statements I think is applicable on this thread subject.

I really really really really really dont think you got the point, nor properly understood the posts of certain people like Duane, d_spike, and MG.

Old Chinese saying:
"One cannot reason with a closed mind"

You dont belong here if you dont have respect for other's beliefs.
Why do you give "Warning"??? Isnt it because you "believe" you have to?
Well if I am to consider your "warning", consider mine too nah: you are on the wrong path............you will be doomed in your next life.

[AdamB]

You're right I don't belong here for the real life is the Life of the Hereafter!!
Why don't you post what you really believe, but no you're a COWARD who is unsure and insecure!!!

[AdamB]

Kasey,
I said it before and I will say it again: For the last almost 100 pages on this thread YOU have not contributed any discussion of VALUE to the subject.
And I challenge you to show me what of value you contributed before that.

[MG Man]

sooooooooo now we on kasey case um?

[pioneer]

Well if islam believes in science they would understand the elementary concept that in order for something to exist, it must be relative to space and time.
Space and time is not required for the existence of ALLAH. HE is the Creator of those things and everything HE has created needs HIM for their continued existence and sustenance.
ALLAH has the POWER and ABILITY to do ALL THINGS!!!

Even thoughts exist, think about it.
Even down to our thoughts (and actions) ALLAH has created, you think about it. For you may have assumed that these concepts are new to Islam but rather muslims are the true PIONEERS!!

You speak of education, why it is most if not all muslims insist that their daughters do not become educated but instead subject themselves to a man to bear offspring?
Muslim women have always been the most educated when compared to others. Right here in T&T muslim women are doctors, lawyers, engineers, whatever field you can think of, even Parliamentarians and the current Deputy Speaker of the House.
You are confusing the culture of some people with the ideals of the religion. That's two totally opposite realities. People of the Middle East have a culture of tribalism and natural hardship due to their desert climate. Despite that muslim women have been business owners, teachers and have had the right to own property from 1400+ years ago. I challenge you to say from how long ago women in the West have had the same right.

Again, what's with all the copypasts with no source? Because if I said it, you would say I am only expressing MY OPINION. However, I have posted from a source outside of the Islamic fraternity (UK Guardian) to show you that the information is not biased and can be verified (a requirement for continuous improvement, mr Kaizen...U AWARE??).
Just for you:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2002/ ... h.science2
http://www.al-bab.com/arab/islam_and_evolution.htm

Plus a bonus: http://www.scienceislam.com/evolution_creation.php
Oh right, that's how the koran was created, copy/paste/regurgitate what other religions said.

The Qur'aan was NOT CREATED!! It is the WORD of ALLAH. Neither ALLAH Nor HIS ATTRIBUTES (incl the Qur'aan) is CREATED.

lolwut?...u makin no sense

Actually I heard a LOCAL lecture (in trinidad) by a very popular shake who is well known and respected amongst the local muslim community. HE was a strong advocate against education for muslim women. He said muslims are so caught up in "wordly things" like education and pride that they send their daughters off to university instead of "marrying them of as soon as possible in other to reproduce more muslims into the world". To support his point he said by the time a woman finishes school she is old and "no man will desire her".

He got pretty emotional about the subject and firmly believed muslim women should NOT be educated. My very own neighbours share this point of view, so how can you say this is some extreme middle eastern culture? You're clearly not aware and seem to live in a bubble or just pure ignorance.

Muslim women in the middle east not allowed to drive, not allowed to talk to a man in public, must conceal themselves from head to toe, can be "mercy-killed" for a plethora of reasons including being the victim of a rape, outcast if they divorce, outcast if they become a widow etc etc etc. Then you want to speak of women rights in the west?

Man seriously, take your foolish sh1t somewhere else.

[Kasey]

sooooooooo now we on kasey case um?

yeah, thats the general idea i get from the muslim religion. Ridicule, taunt, and shun all other beliefs and cultures, call them cowards, "challenge them".

Never have I called anyone here a coward. My beliefs are none of your business Adam. Its that simple. Its amusing how you get on the defensive so quickly, and then start back with the under-the-belt name calling and so on. You have very little control over your temper. Typical of your sort.

I never claimed I am righter than anyone, I never even claimed that I believe anything, Why should i take up your challenges? Who are you? Some idiot who ridicules anyone, who you feel makes you uncomfortable? You get upset with people if they dont tell you what their beliefs are.

My beliefs are none of your business. I am discussing what is said here on the forum. It was your choice to spout your garbage here. It is my choice to keep quiet. What will you do? Blow me up? Ha ha, or will you continue to ridicule me.

Go on, your response will tell if you are the typical Muslim stero type.

Again I say, you are wrong in your BELIEFS.

[Kasey]

You're right I don't belong here for the real life is the Life of the Hereafter!!
Why don't you post what you really believe, but no you're a COWARD who is unsure and insecure!!!Thats ur opinion, Muslim, only an opinion!!

Kasey,
I said it before and I will say it again: For the last almost 100 pages on this thread YOU have not contributed any discussion of VALUE to the subject. Another untrue opinion, that many may disaggree with
And I challenge you to show me what of value you contributed before that. I have better things to do than that. Like watching grass grow. Getting your temper up is amusment enough

[maj. tom]

One can extrapolate that AdamB started foaming at the mouth at 10:36 am today.

Ha Ha, charade you are!

[AdamB]

One more time for Kasey case um, as it seems that this is what caught your attention:

I don't look at it as condemning but rather as WARNING from imminent doom!! My basis, logic and statements of the revealed texts. Real verifiable evidence would reveal that they have been tampered with (except the Qur'aan) so man now follow their misguided desires, NOT approved by GOD ALMIGHTY.

Keep deluding yourself away from the TRUTH!!!

[AdamB]

Kasey,
I said it before and I will say it again: For the last almost 100 pages on this thread YOU have not contributed any discussion of VALUE to the subject. Another untrue opinion, that many may disaggree with. WHO ARE THESE MANY? LIST ONE OR TWO NAH?
And I challenge you to show me what of value you contributed before that. I have better things to do than that. Like watching grass grow. Maybe in your next life you will be rewarded by returning as a COW!!

Getting your temper up is amusment enough.
quote]

[size=150]Bring your evidence, IF YOU ARE TRUTHFUL!!

[AdamB]

One can extrapolate that AdamB started foaming at the mouth at 10:36 am today.

Ha Ha, charade you are!

don't be a trolling lolcow please.

[d spike]

I don't look at it as condemning but rather as WARNING from imminent doom!! My basis, logic and statements of the revealed texts. Real verifiable evidence would reveal that they have been tampered with (except the Qur'aan) so man now follow their misguided desires, NOT approved by GOD ALMIGHTY.

I am getting tired of this regurgitated nonsense about the tampering of religious writings/scriptures of non-muslim religions.
When one questions the spouters of this diatribe, they can only deliver two arguments:
1. Known errant translations;
2. The very fact that all scripture (apart from the Koran) has been translated.

The First Heap of Bulldung
How do they know that certain Christian translations were in error? Simply because Christian scholars themselves pointed out these errors! The fact that the scholars had to be aware of the correct translation IN ORDER TO identify the errors somehow escapes these gum-bumpers like a bin Laden among the Afghanistan mountain caves...
The KJV, the JW's version, and many other errant scriptural translations AS WELL AS THEIR ERRORS have been well documented over the decades.

The Second Heap of Bulldroppings
For a group of people who were so focused on academia centuries ago, it is so sad to see the blinded ignorami that some evolved into. How is it that AdamB can explain Koranic scripture (which is written in Arabic) in English? Because he can TRANSLATE.
The proper translation of a document is not dependent on what religion it serves as scripture for, but on who is doing the translation.
Words, imagery, idiom, emotions - all these can and have been translated faithfully over the centuries. Just because some folks are totally hopeless when it comes to language (hence the reliance on digital scissors and glue) doesn't meant that all others are.

I'm sure megadoc et al can quote the scriptural line about "my words will never pass away"... so either this isn't "scripture" (and de man wuz lyin') or the said scripture is still acceptable...

Furthermore, what proof does anyone have that "God" does not approve of scripture? This I'd love to hear... unless it is a quotation from a specific scripture saying it alone is proper scripture, in which case you need to take another look at Duane's napkin.


Cheers

[Kasey]

One more time for Kasey case um, as it seems that this is what caught your attention:

I don't look at it as condemning but rather as WARNING from imminent doom!! My basis, logic and statements of the revealed texts. Real verifiable evidence would reveal that they have been tampered with (except the Qur'aan) so man now follow their misguided desires, NOT approved by GOD ALMIGHTY.

Keep deluding yourself away from the TRUTH!!!

Writing in Bold, red words does not make the codswallop you write any righter. The truth is that you are in error in the way you think, not the scripture you so selflessly defend. You dont even get point.

[Kasey]

Kasey,
I said it before and I will say it again: For the last almost 100 pages on this thread YOU have not contributed any discussion of VALUE to the subject. Another untrue opinion, that many may disaggree with. WHO ARE THESE MANY? LIST ONE OR TWO NAH?
And I challenge you to show me what of value you contributed before that. I have better things to do than that. Like watching grass grow. Maybe in your next life you will be rewarded by returning as a COW!!
HOORAY!!!! So you do know about the Hindu practices!!! I know I came here for a reason. Keep it up, you may very well have a hopeful Karma

Getting your temper up is amusment enough.

Bring your evidence, IF YOU ARE TRUTHFUL!![/quote]
you confuse being truthful with the right to one's own opinion and keeping it to oneself. You have no respect for any one's beliefs or privacy. Again.........its typical of your ilk.

[Logic42]

don't mean to barge in, but i'll just leave this here. i lol'd