Need a TTASA Question Answered

[fiveforward]

Need an answer here or am i just going mad;

Was going through the list of recognised NSo in Trinidad & Tobago
http://msya.gov.tt/home/images/stories/ ... sports.pdf
and realized that Motorsport is nowhere to been seen although they do have pigeon racing
quite prominent.

My question is how can Motorsport not be recognised as an official sport considering that there is a "functioning" association representing the better interest of Motorsport on the whole in Trinidad. If anybody from TTASA can answer this for me I would be VERY appreciative.

And if I choose to financially "sponsor" something/ somebody would I get a write off of some kind or is that dead money.

Anybody please.

[foss]

inside...

PM user 'link' on the forum.

[kual]

sponsor me a couple pigeons nuh so they could race. racing pigeons cost a great deal of money too!

[cinco]

Need an answer here or am i just going mad;

Was going through the list of recognised NSo in Trinidad & Tobago
http://msya.gov.tt/home/images/stories/ ... sports.pdf
and realized that Motorsport is nowhere to been seen although they do have pigeon racing
quite prominent.

My question is how can Motorsport not be recognised as an official sport considering that there is a "functioning" association representing the better interest of Motorsport on the whole in Trinidad. If anybody from TTASA can answer this for me I would be VERY appreciative.

And if I choose to financially "sponsor" something/ somebody would I get a write off of some kind or is that dead money.

Anybody please.

i suggest you ask your affiliate club

[sMASH]

sponsor me a couple pigeons nuh so they could race. racing pigeons cost a great deal of money too!

dem pigeons have insurance? yeah, they charge money to enter, maybe not spectate, but that may not be enough to cover insurance.

[dread_2002]

insurance covering racing..hahahhaha
i work in insurance..
and most companies agreements will never cover any racing!
its an exclusion on the policy

[Razkal]

how is contract bridge a sport!?

[wagonrunner]

insurance covering racing..hahahhaha
i work in insurance..
and most companies agreements will never cover any racing!
its an exclusion on the policy

ask your supervisor to explain public liability insurance to you. Most sporting bodies, if not all except TTASA has that for each of their events.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Need an answer here or am i just going mad;

Was going through the list of recognised NSo in Trinidad & Tobago
http://msya.gov.tt/home/images/stories/ ... sports.pdf
and realized that Motorsport is nowhere to been seen although they do have pigeon racing
quite prominent.

My question is how can Motorsport not be recognised as an official sport considering that there is a "functioning" association representing the better interest of Motorsport on the whole in Trinidad. If anybody from TTASA can answer this for me I would be VERY appreciative.

And if I choose to financially "sponsor" something/ somebody would I get a write off of some kind or is that dead money.

Anybody please.

but it's there on the first page, 4th item is the section "AUTOMOBILE". TTASA is there, TTRC is there and TTKA is there

[wagonrunner]

And if I choose to financially "sponsor" something/ somebody would I get a write off of some kind or is that dead money.

Anybody please.

but it's there on the first page under the section "Automobile".

What about that part?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ that is a big grey area
from past national Budget Presentations there have been 100% and even 150% tax write-offs proposed for companies sponsoring sporting events in T&T. However it has been difficult to get, not only for motorsport alone. Some accountants / companies have been able to get it and some havent.

I can't see how it's "dead money" though, the idea of sponsoring is to support the sport. The tax write-off is an incentive, not a motive.

[link]

fiveforward wrote:
And if I choose to financially "sponsor" something/ somebody would I get a write off of some kind or is that dead money.

Anybody please.

official sponsors are eligible for sponsorship claims up to 1 million dollars......please ensure ALL your legal documents/agreements/contracts are in order.
Of course...this assumes YOUR organisation is a registered entity with Min.of Sports
.
lots more....ain't as simple as attaching a 'bill' to yr tax returns...
if Duane cud find that info so easily (doh mine it outdated).........
.
rgds

[fiveforward]

but it's there on the first page, 4th item is the section "AUTOMOBILE". TTASA is there, TTRC is there and TTKA is there

I know it's there but there are 4 organisations representing Motorsport on that list; out of which one do I turn to for drag racing specifically or do I liaise with all four; in which case something is fundamentally wrong if I have to liaise with all four in order to get to one.

I know that
TTASA hosts circuit events as an association
TTKA hosts karting events only as an association
TTRC hosts rally events only as an association

Who is the association representing drag racing in an official capacity
so that sponsorship benefits the organisation and therein the participants
and the sport (drag racing). Because I don't think sponsored money derived by rally club
through their hard work is used to develop karting/ solodex/ drift. Unless I'm mistaken.

some corporate people want some answers to some questions.

[link]

fiveforward
Please ctc the motor sport National Governing Body for relevant info
The current President of the NGB is Mr. Mohammed Ali - tel 389-8169
.
rgds

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

I know it's there

I could have sworn you said

Motorsport is nowhere to been seen

anyway...

TTASA has not hosted a circuit event since 2005-2006 AFAIK

TTASA has been having Drag Racing events at Camden again since November 2011.
They are currently running a national Drag Racing Championship of which the 3rd event will be held this Sunday 27th May 2012.

TTASA formed the T&T Motorsport General Council which is made up of clubs which are affiliated to TTASA.

TTRC, CARS, ARA and TTKA are not affiliated and so are not on the T&T Motorsport General Council. The representatives for Drag Racing sitting on the T&T Motorsport General Council are two clubs: TTUNDRA and Horizon Motorsport. While these clubs should be the ones hosting the drag racing events, TTASA has the lease for Camden and so they have been having the events. According to TTASA, ALL proceeds from these events go towards a fund that TTASA keeps for the development of a motorsport facility that will support every discipline of motorsport.

TTASA is the National Governing Body for Motorsport in T&T.
TTRC and TTKA were stripped of their NSO status when TTASA urged the Ministry of Sport that there can only be one NSO/NGB for a sport.
The PDF link you posted seems to list sporting clubs, not only NSOs/NGBs

[link]

TTASA is the National Governing Body for Motorsport in T&T.
TTRC and TTKA were stripped of their NSO status when TTASA urged the Ministry of Sport that there can only be one NSO/NGB for a sport.

Duane...above statement is CORRECTLY represented below :

'TTRC and TTKA were stripped of their NSO status when the Ministry of Sport resolved their error in creating multiple NSOs, understanding (through the FIA definition below) that there can only be one NSO for motor sport. MSYA further renamed these bodies 'NGB' to further cement & reinforce the authority of the NATIONAL GOVERNING BODY.'
.
Taken from the FIA statutes :

ARTICLE 4 – Sporting Power
The General Assembly of the FIA shall be the sole
international body governing motor sport, that is to say it
shall hold the exclusive right to take all decisions
concerning the organisation, direction and management
of International Motor Sport.
The FIA shall recognize in each country and for all
branches of motoring only one Sporting Power which
under all circumstances shall remain responsible to the
FIA; the holder of this power is the direct motor sport
representative of its country within the FIA and is
entrusted with having the international regulations laid
down by the International Sporting Code of the FIA
enforced in its country.
.........

[fiveforward]

hmmmmmmmmmmm

TTASA has not hosted a circuit event since 2005-2006

wow well if that is the case then circuit doesn't have a functioning association as well, just like drag racing. Or is it that TTASA still is the defacto NGB for circuit, as well as being the NSO for motorsport, as well as the ASN for FIA, as well as host for drags despite there being "clubs" to do that.

TTASA has been having Drag Racing events at Camden again since November 2011.

But isn't TTASA the one's who formed the motorsport council; so in essence you're saying that once TTRC, CARS, ARA and TTKA and the like join the council then TTASA is responsible for their events or do the clubs maintain a level of autonomy in running their own affairs with TTASA overseeing total motorsport development.

TTUNDRA and Horizon Motorsport. While these clubs should be the ones hosting the drag racing events, TTASA has the lease for Camden and so they have been having the events.

How can there be more than one NGB for the same sport. I know Motorsport is Motorsport but there are different branches under the same tree. So there are effectively 2 NGB's representing the National interest of 1 sport and the head of the NGB hosting it. How come I don't see that in other sporting organisational structures with NSO status, there is always 1 which everybody has to go through, so for drags is either the corporate people go thru TTASA or should they go thru TTUNDRA and HORIZON which are merely clubs.

TTASA has the lease for Camden and so they have been having the events. According to TTASA, ALL proceeds from these events go towards a fund that TTASA keeps for the development of a motorsport facility that will support every discipline of motorsport.

TTASA is the National Governing Body for Motorsport in T&T so I can understand them getting the lease, but how come TTUNDRA or Horizon as clubs are NOT able to host their OWN drag racing events, arn't they the one representing drag racing. TTASA is just the holder of the compound unless of course they were given the charge by the leaser to host events as well. In which case why ONLY drag racing, why not a V8 something as well. An if the leaser is the government then there is something not right in the mix.

And why MUST all the revenue derived from drag racing go towards the development of MOTORSPORT. I don't see revenue derived in cricket go towards basketball/ the money that the rally club gets is used to develop rally and throw rally events (e.g. Rally Trinidad). If you tell me a dedicated drag strip for 24/7 drag racing then I will say cool. But why are the drag racers footing a large chunk of a bill for a motorsport facility that will not really benefit them. How are the other association contributing to this facility to be built. Is there publicly available documents to see the value of this fund cause i think associations representing the government and national interests supposed to have open books.

Call me selfish by why should monies that corporate issues for the development of drag racing be used to fund a Motorsport facility. Of what benefit is that to them and please don't tell me goodwill.

Could someone draw me an organisational chart so I can follow how Motorsport is structured cause right now i lost and this isn't looking to good.

FIA

Link correct me if I am wrong but does FIA put on F1 events because I just went through almost all of http://www.fia.com and nowhere does it say host/ promote event or any ONE discipline

It does say that FIA (a sanctioning body) is dedicated to representing the rights of motoring organisations and motor car users throughout the world via campaigns and activities that defend their interests. On issues such as safety, mobility, the environment and consumer law. The FIA is also the governing body for motor sport worldwide and administers the rules and regulations for all international four-wheel motor sport.

FIA makes money through member dues, sanctioning fees, licencing fees and the kind donations of billionaires. I have yet to see them ACTIVELY make money from BTCC, WRC and F1, then take that money, bank it and use it to build a facility. I can be wrong eh.

So if I think that drag racing is being victimized to the highest, who do I report to? TTASA (NSO), TTASA (ASN), TTASA (Circuit NGB), TTASA (Leasee), TTASA (FIA rep), TTASA ( Drag NGB), TTASA (drag event promoter)

Just askin.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

hmmmmmmmmmmm

TTASA has not hosted a circuit event since 2005-2006

wow well if that is the case then circuit doesn't have a functioning association as well, just like drag racing. Or is it that TTASA still is the defacto NGB for circuit, as well as being the NSO for motorsport, as well as the ASN for FIA, as well as host for drags despite there being "clubs" to do that.

there is no NGB for circuit. The Ministry changed the term NSO to NGB. Link had said there can only be one NGB for all of Motorsport.

TTASA has been having Drag Racing events at Camden again since November 2011.

But isn't TTASA the one's who formed the motorsport council; so in essence you're saying that once TTRC, CARS, ARA and TTKA and the like join the council then TTASA is responsible for their events or do the clubs maintain a level of autonomy in running their own affairs with TTASA overseeing total motorsport development.

A TTASA rep will have to answer that. however the latter is how I understand it to be. Though I think the General Council should be the NGB and TTASA can remain the ASN, but I was told this cannot work for various reasons.

TTUNDRA and Horizon Motorsport. While these clubs should be the ones hosting the drag racing events, TTASA has the lease for Camden and so they have been having the events.

How can there be more than one NGB for the same sport. I know Motorsport is Motorsport but there are different branches under the same tree. So there are effectively 2 NGB's representing the National interest of 1 sport and the head of the NGB hosting it. How come I don't see that in other sporting organisational structures with NSO status, there is always 1 which everybody has to go through, so for drags is either the corporate people go thru TTASA or should they go thru TTUNDRA and HORIZON which are merely clubs.

wha? There is only one NGB for ALL of motorsport. TTASA is the NGB for ALL of motorsport in T&T. TTUNDRA and Horizon REPRESENT Drag Racing on the T&T Motorsport General Council. TTUNDRA and Horizon are not NGBs! Nothing is wrong with having numerous Drag Racing clubs, however they all need to vote among themselves to decide which members among them will represent their sport at the MSGC.

TTASA has the lease for Camden and so they have been having the events. According to TTASA, ALL proceeds from these events go towards a fund that TTASA keeps for the development of a motorsport facility that will support every discipline of motorsport.

TTASA is the National Governing Body for Motorsport in T&T so I can understand them getting the lease, but how come TTUNDRA or Horizon as clubs are NOT able to host their OWN drag racing events, arn't they the one representing drag racing. TTASA is just the holder of the compound unless of course they were given the charge by the leaser to host events as well. In which case why ONLY drag racing, why not a V8 something as well. An if the leaser is the government then there is something not right in the mix.

You are not the only one who shares that sentiment. Infact I remember FIA informing TTASA that the ASN should not be hosting events - hosting/promoting/organising should be done by the clubs/promotion companies etc and TTASA would sanction said events if needed.

And why MUST all the revenue derived from drag racing go towards the development of MOTORSPORT.

that is a directive of the current TTASA administration, you would have to contact them directly to find out. Link is the Vice President so maybe you can PM him.

I don't see revenue derived in cricket go towards basketball/ the money that the rally club gets is used to develop rally and throw rally events (e.g. Rally Trinidad).

Cricket has an NGB and basketball has an NGB. Windball cricket falls under the cricket NGB. The same way Track and Field has an NGB, Motorsport has an NGB. You dont see an NGB for 100m, another NGB for pole vault and another NGB for relay, that would be chaos for the ministry to have to deal with 200 NGBs!; similarly there is no NGB for Rally, another Circuit and another for Drags, instead there is one NGB for all Motorsport.

If you tell me a dedicated drag strip for 24/7 drag racing then I will say cool. But why are the drag racers footing a large chunk of a bill for a motorsport facility that will not really benefit them.

that is a TTASA decision to have Drag Racing events at Camden . Considering Camden is a strip and not a rally stage I think that had alot to do with which sport they would have there. Also I am sure the fact that drag racing has proven to be a lucrative sport in T&T is also another reason.

How are the other association contributing to this facility to be built. Is there publicly available documents to see the value of this fund cause i think associations representing the government and national interests supposed to have open books.

you would have to contact TTASA on that one - please let us know what you find out!

Call me selfish

I prefer to call you fiveforward

by why should monies that corporate issues for the development of drag racing be used to fund a Motorsport facility. Of what benefit is that to them and please don't tell me goodwill.

corporate? I dont think TTASA has gotten any funding from the government so far because the Ministry of Sport is withholding funds until all of motorsport is unified.

TTASA has gotten sponsorship for events at Camden, however this is money companies spend towards the event itself - I don't think by sponsoring an event the sponsor imagines his money will end up going towards a motorsport facility.

Could someone draw me an organisational chart so I can follow how Motorsport is structured cause right now i lost and this isn't looking to good.

this is the way motorsport is structured in T&T right now (I may have missed out a few clubs, but you get the idea)



An argument was made that the clubs that are NOT on the motorsport general council (TTRC, ARA, TTKA, CARS and DWO etc) have all been having championship events for years, some for over a decade and others for decades now. While the clubs who ARE on the motorsport general council have never had a single event, except for TTRA which has navigational and fun rallies.

FIA

Link correct me if I am wrong but does FIA put on F1 events because I just went through almost all of http://www.fia.com and nowhere does it say host/ promote event or any ONE discipline

It does say that FIA (a sanctioning body) is dedicated to representing the rights of motoring organisations and motor car users throughout the world via campaigns and activities that defend their interests. On issues such as safety, mobility, the environment and consumer law. The FIA is also the governing body for motor sport worldwide and administers the rules and regulations for all international four-wheel motor sport.

FIA makes money through member dues, sanctioning fees, licencing fees and the kind donations of billionaires. I have yet to see them ACTIVELY make money from BTCC, WRC and F1, then take that money, bank it and use it to build a facility. I can be wrong eh.

So if I think that drag racing is being victimized to the highest, who do I report to? TTASA (NSO), TTASA (ASN), TTASA (Circuit NGB), TTASA (Leasee), TTASA (FIA rep), TTASA ( Drag NGB), TTASA (drag event promoter)

Just askin.

Link or someone from TTASA would have to answer that

[ek4ever]

"TTRC, CARS, ARA and TTKA are not affiliated and so are not on the T&T Motorsport General Council. The representatives for Drag Racing sitting on the T&T Motorsport General Council are two clubs: TTUNDRA and Horizon Motorsport. While these clubs should be the ones hosting the drag racing events, TTASA has the lease for Camden and so they have been having the events. According to TTASA, ALL proceeds from these events go towards a fund that TTASA keeps for the development of a motorsport facility that will support every discipline of motorsport."

Does TTASA publish audited year-end financials for the paying public to see? Or does the Ministry require audited financials and can a member of the public access this info? How far are we from getting this facility? Is there a plan available showing how this will be achieved? What is the target date for acquiring this facility?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ Regarding TTASA financials, Link would have to answer that too

As far as I know only TTASA members are privy to TTASA financial reports.

How far are we from getting this facility?

the minister of sport said he will not sign off on any lands to build a motorsport facility until there is unity in motorsport (meaning all clubs under on umbrella/NGB). However the Minister of Tourism announced this month that he would look into lands in Valencia / Sangre Grande to develop a facility, though no confirmation on which piece of land or the size has been give as yet.

I think we are years away from this facility.

[ek4ever]

^ Regarding TTASA financials, Link would have to answer that too

As far as I know only TTASA members are privy to TTASA financial reports.

How far are we from getting this facility?

the minister of sport said he will not sign off on any lands to build a motorsport facility until there is unity in motorsport (meaning all clubs under on umbrella/NGB). However the Minister of Tourism announced this month that he would look into lands in Valencia / Sangre Grande to develop a facility, though no confirmation on which piece of land or the size has been give as yet.

I think we are years away from this facility.

All well and good. Are we saying that a facility is not possible without government help? If there is serious private investment for a facility, local, foreign or both and there is need for much less gov't assistance will this still be a problem? Has TTASA really 'shopped' around for investors? I would think that a sound business plan and strategic roadmap could attract enough local and foreign investment to at least signify to govt the viability and seriousness of the motorsports fraternity to establish the facility. The govt would probably be more amenable to assist if they see some move to meet them part way.

Just saying....

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Check this thread
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=435746
the minister of sport has said he has a plan on his desk for a world class motorsport facility that will include govt and private investment. However he will not sign off on anything until there is unity.

TTASA would like the govt to provide the land as this would remove a large cost out of the development of a facility.

I havent seen any very big corporate sponsors putting sponsorship dollar towards TTASAs events currently, but that may just be a marketing issue - so I don't know if this will change if TTASA gets land to build a facility. Speaking to TTASA officials they say that they will get corporate support and substantial financial support from FIA, but only if they get land from the gov't.

[wagonrunner]

Speaking to TTASA officials they say that they will get corporate support and substantial financial support from FIA, but only if they get land from the gov't.

Is there any proof (Promisary notes / contracts / legally binding documents stating FIA is giving them money if they obtain such) of that?

[link]

The govt would probably be more amenable to assist if they see some move to meet them part way.

TTASA is on record telling Govt that all the ASN needs is a lease on adequate lands & funding/technical assistance will be made available (to the ASN...NOT GOVT).
.
I guess 'some' ppl have to 'pull een' their pardners somehow....(ipo...popio...rfp...cepep...)
.
rgds

[wagonrunner]

The govt would probably be more amenable to assist if they see some move to meet them part way.

TTASA is on record telling Govt that all the ASN needs is a lease on adequate lands & funding/technical assistance will be made available (to the ASN...NOT GOVT).
.
I guess 'some' ppl have to 'pull een' their pardners somehow....(ipo...popio...rfp...cepep...)
.
rgds

is TTASA on record here as well? from http://www.trinituner.com/v3/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=428872

DON'T MISS THIS OPPORTUNITY TO WITNESS FIRST-HAND WHICH RACE TEAMS TRY TO QUALIFY FOR SELECTION TO BE ON THE T&T NATIONAL TEAM TO CHALLENGE ST. LUCIA

A record of lies is no collateral.

[Computerman]

Duane...above statement is CORRECTLY represented below :

'TTRC and TTKA were stripped of their NSO status when the Ministry of Sport resolved their error in creating multiple NSOs, understanding (through the FIA definition below) that there can only be one NSO for motor sport. MSYA further renamed these bodies 'NGB' to further cement & reinforce the authority of the NATIONAL GOVERNING BODY.'
.
Taken from the FIA statutes :

ARTICLE 4 – Sporting Power
The General Assembly of the FIA shall be the sole
international body governing motor sport, that is to say it
shall hold the exclusive right to take all decisions
concerning the organisation, direction and management
of International Motor Sport.
The FIA shall recognize in each country and for all
branches of motoring only one Sporting Power which
under all circumstances shall remain responsible to the
FIA; the holder of this power is the direct motor sport
representative of its country within the FIA and is
entrusted with having the international regulations laid
down by the International Sporting Code of the FIA
enforced in its country.
.........

This response only further solidifies my statement in another thread about "those who don't know any better" and TTASA's "sales tactics"!
YES, FIA will 'deal' with one body! YES, there should be one NGB for Motorsport! But nowhere in there does FIA say they have to be the same body. TTASA is just connecting dots that do not exist to continue to fool the weak minded!

The govt would probably be more amenable to assist if they see some move to meet them part way.

TTASA is on record telling Govt that all the ASN needs is a lease on adequate lands & funding/technical assistance will be made available (to the ASN...NOT GOVT).

Great, so we can establish that all FIA funding goes to TTASA directly! Who is TTASA accountable to for that $$?!

[link]

I apologise here BEFORE I post, because, obviously y'all don't care to read :

But nowhere in there does FIA say they have to be the same body. TTASA is just connecting dots that do not exist to continue to fool the weak minded!

.
person...
please refer to T&T National Sport Policy (national governing bodies- requirements)...then revisit above statement...
.
rgds

[wagonrunner]

so.................... from http://www.msya.gov.tt/home/images/stor ... policy.pdf
and did a search for requirements. found the below two uses of the word.

7. SAFETY/RISK MANAGEMENT

The issue of physical safety in sport be it in relation to equipment, sport facilities or the conduct of sporting activity itself must form an integral component of the thrust to develop sport. In this regard the following is proposed

7.1 All public and private sporting facilities must be covered by public liability insurance.

7.2 Coaches, trainers and Health & Physical Education teachers must be trained in safety measures and First Aid/CPR.

7.3 Facilities and equipment must conform to international safety requirements.

7.4 The public must be sensitized to the importance of safety at sports competitions.

TTASA and the underlined, wow. yeah. right.
and on page 14.

A Code of Ethics for coaches, medical personnel, trainers and administrators shall be established, and checks and balances put in place in order to avoid the abuse and /or harassment of athletes. This code shall be consistent with the requirements of the relevant International Sporting Federations.

Can that be said of TTASA based on the comments in this thread

TTASA really needs to know their place.

So what yuh really trying to tell computerman?

[AutoSport]

Amazing to read ALL of the comments and simple questions asked.And why do we all feel that the MSYA also not reading and looking on. And why should the Minister just hand over Govt. lands to people who have absolutely no respect or regard for others.No desire to respond to a simple question of why no Treasurer? Or why did the elected treasurer resign. Why the bodies with a record of building and staging well organized events just refuse to be part of a mickey mouse set up? And why this mickey mouse team, or is it a trio, feel that by pulling together a group, none of whom ever staged one single event, can fool the Minister into accepting their version of a general council as acceptable best practice.

No shame in saying is only the Rally Club to come on board. Do they not also have their own version of a rally club on board? So why wait for TTRC? Do they have a Karting body on board? (Since is only the rally club to come on board)

Did they not publish the staging of a NACAM Rally back in Nov. 2011.
And the selection of a Nation Drag Racing Team to represent T&T in St. Lucia.
Why no response to the driver, who they are demanding should apologize for the disgraceful behavior of their President.
Suggested allegations or questions on Public Liability Insurance.

On and on, and as some say, what do you expect from those that are suffering from delusions of grandeur and expecting the intelligent to follow a bunch of fools.

[X2]

The FIA shall recognize in each country and for all
branches of motoring only one Sporting Power which
under all circumstances shall remain responsible to the
FIA; the holder of this power is the direct motor sport
representative of its country within the FIA and is
entrusted with having the international regulations laid
down by the International Sporting Code of the FIA
enforced in its country.

Part of the first things they say... the area in bold must be rather important to the legitimacy of the NSO.