Secrets of the Legacy SQ build discusion thread

[SR]

Car was not build for sq competition but just personal listening as well as a test vehicile for auditioning different front stage speakers from 2 way comps and coaxials with passives

Head Unit
Pioneer P99RS pioneer's flagship head unit
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/ ... /DEX-P99RS

Front Stage
DLS Rs6n 2011 2 way components which repalced the older Rs6 a components
http://dls.se/en/car/prod.html?produkt=en_844

Subs
1 pr of DLS iridium 10" subwoofers
http://dls.se/en/car/prod.html?produkt=en_484

Front Stage Amplifier
DLS TA2 vacuum tube amplifier
http://dls.se/en/car/prod.html?produkt=en_209

Subwoofer Amplifier
DLS A6 mono
http://dls.se/en/car/prod.html?produkt=en_109

Subwoofer enclosure
Bassworx factory sealed enclosure separate chambers stuffed with polyfill
http://www.bassworx.com/hsr.html

Power cables
Jl audio 2 gauge wiring kit
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_conn ... ?cat_id=16

Signal Cables
Jl audio Blu series
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_conn ... p?cat_id=6

Speaker wires
Jl Audio 8 gauge on the subwoofer 12 gauge to front stage
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_conn ... ?cat_id=19

Battery upgrade
Vmax charge tank for subaru oem fit
http://www.vmaxchargetank.com/

Alternator
Stock

big 3 upgrade still to be done

[Aaron 2NR]

SR your legacy sounded really good...another simple DLS machine...the front stage is well executed

[SR]

will get into the actual build process of the front doors tonight
sorry didnt take any pics but i will go into full detail

[Aaron 2NR]

what i was most impressed about what the locations of the tweeters, everything's in stock locations and yet scored so well in competition.......

[pay1093]

what i was most impressed about what the locations of the tweeters, everything's in stock locations and yet scored so well in competition.......

x2

I cant wait to see the build process.

[SR]

no pics


here are the details on the front doors

mid bass installed in oem location
area behind the mid bass speaker on the door skin has a square patch of sound dynamat about 10" sq
the rest of the outer door skin as a couple strips of dynamat applied across it approx 1.5" wide and about 8" long on each strip
this provides sufficient sound damping of the door
mounting ring made out of 5/8" mdf
door panel was sound dampened arounf the oem speaker hole mounting ring was installed using proper pan head metal screws (no drywall or any other substitute should be used) this provides a secure installation of the ring
the ring is then sound dampened as well from the ring to the door panel to an area of about 2" around the ring itself on the door panel
mid bass speaker is then installed using metal screws which go straight tru to the door panel itself and not jsut the mdf ring

tweeter installed in oem location on the door
original tweet was at a 30degree tilt upwards and straight across
bracket was modded to install the tweet at a 45 degree angle up with a 15 degree tilt forward
tweeter had to be installed a bit lower to allow for the 45 degree angle up to claer the door panel

the aim was the achieve the best possible sweet spot for the tweets while maintaining the oem look
there is still room for improvement though

there is no damping material between the door panel and the skin
there is no gasket around the tweet

[nigel1977]

I didn't expect anything fancy with the install so Im not dissapointed when I didnt see build pics. Ive never known Shazad to be good with snapping pics while he is working.

Jonathan and myself critically listened to the car, primarily at tonality. We didnt get past track 7.

Myself, having gone thru the iasca Judges training a couple times, listened from a judge's point of "view".

I have not seen SR's tonality scoring breakdown, but a 97 should indicate a couple 20's. I suspect he got them in the midrange and high.

Subbass was good on track 6, but a bit too much on track 5. The progression of notes were not easily discernible. Maybe cus of his damn loud exhaust.
Midbass had adequate attack, but I felt it lacked fullness and warmth. Adding too much of those 2 things can also be bad for stage height. So I assume he took the high road.

There were a great many people who sat in the subaru, and a great many mixed opinions.

There are no smoke and mirrors in this score. Its plain and simple tuning.
As a judge, Shazad knows exactly what is required. And he gave it in spades.

I strongly suspect, this is not his daily tune. What I heard, was hardcore competition tune.

Not bad. Not bad at all.

[HCCA]

Question: how well would those components stand up to 100W of daily use power
seeing it's an under rated 100W x 2 @ 4 ohm tube amp you're using?

[SR]

your ears do you well

20's in mids and highs
19's in sub and midbass and acording to the comments you are correct in what you heard as well too much sub bass which also affected the attack of the mid bass

car was tuned for competition 5 minutes after fawwaz entered to compete

major tuning was done by seat adjustment and not anything on the deck but by pushing the seat far back and the angle of the back rest combined with a little too much sub bass it cause the lsitening postion score to suffer

generlly the car is tuned for daily listening the only adjustment was the on board seating position time alignlemt setting which was jsut thrown in for competition and no fine tuning was done to it and probably never will

thanks for the comments
hope others who took a listen will comment as well

i have no intentions of returning to hard core competitions but will jump in every now and then to make sure i can still be competitive as it helps me become a better judge

[SR]

doors are crossed at 50hz high pass will check and see if its at 12 or 18 db subs are crossed at 50hz low pass 18db

[SR]

Question: how well would those stand up to 100W of daily use power
seeing it's an under rated 100W x 2 @ 4 ohm tube amp you're using?

depends on what you mean
many amps boast 100watts but at a single freq and not full bandwidth

[HCCA]

Question: how well would those stand up to 100W of daily use power
seeing it's an under rated 100W x 2 @ 4 ohm tube amp you're using?

depends on what you mean
many amps boast 100watts but at a single freq and not full bandwidth

No i meant in your setup, checked out that amp online and it actually puts out over 100wrms at 4 ohms at 12.5 and 14.4Volts nah.

[nigel1977]

Let sully get a breather. He NEEDS to get back in the lanes as well.

[fuzz_174]

Let sully get a breather. He NEEDS to get back in the lanes as well.

The way things going, Bibi might be judging sound just now

[Aaron 2NR]

^ lols...

[Sully]

The warranty on my car ends in March or May (Can't remember exactly, but I know that it starts with an 'M'). When that is done, I'll start the install on my car. I have about 50% of the equipment that I intend to run. Looking for sound damping (though I don't foresee using much), amplifiers and subs.

I will be maintaining the stock HU, for better or worse. Right now it's a toss up between Motus Labs and Audison for OEM integration and signal processing. Suggestions are welcome.

[nigel1977]

motus.
designed for MOST.

[SR]

Question: how well would those stand up to 100W of daily use power
seeing it's an under rated 100W x 2 @ 4 ohm tube amp you're using?

depends on what you mean
many amps boast 100watts but at a single freq and not full bandwidth

No i meant in your setup, checked out that amp online and it actually puts out over 100wrms at 4 ohms at 12.5 and 14.4Volts nah.

the trick is not in the power but the headroom

yes the amp puts out over 100watts and the speakers are rated at 50rms 80 peak

gains on the amp are at minimum and as such the amp does not have to be driven full steam to power the speakers

this makes for a cleaner sounding system that sounds powerfull without ever running the amp at "max"

not because a speaker is rated at small wattage means it will not sound good or play loud

in the audiophile to everyday listening world this works just fine

[silent_riot]

I listened to the car twice, and will give my subjective impressions.
The first time, in the driver's seat, the second time in the passenger seat with Dinelle in the driver's.
Midrange and highs were exceptional. The midrange didn't have the dynamics of live instruments. Otherwise, no faults in midrange and highs. Roger had better midrange in his car a few years back. Very high scores were deserved for midrange and highs. No colouration, and no distortion I can hear.

Midbass lacked a lot of lower end, and wasn't pleasing to the ear. The sound presented was very thin, and I can imagine if I drove with this tune, I will get listening fatigue quite quickly. It sounded restricted, like woofers which were not fully broken in.

Subbass was too loud and boomy, and drowned out the front stage, but did the lower notes very well. There was way too much ~50Hz sound coming from the sub. The bass was distracting as well, I would probably would have liked to hear this car with the sub off.
Spectral balance: definitely a lot of cars at the show with better spectral balance in my opinion. Everything together did not sound like live acoustic performances I've attended. The lack of midbass and overpowering bass being the most prominent facets, and overall did not sound natural, nor did I get any impression of the space the recordings were performed in.

However, I was glad for the opportunity to finally hear a car with multiple 20s by IASCA's criteria in tonal accuracy, and I will use this information to tune my car in future.

[Soundstream_626]

What was the depth like in this vehicle? I have my midrange in my kickpanel now running 200hz to 6.3k and saw no change in depth score from when I had a 2 way pillar and door setup. any ideas how to fix?

[SR]

i will post the entrie breakdown of the score sheet tonight or tomorow

i ...like you suffer from too much sub bass so listening position suffered

[~Vēġó~]

riveting comments...I like very much!!!

[jeff]

I listened to the car twice, and will give my subjective impressions.
The first time, in the driver's seat, the second time in the passenger seat with Dinelle in the driver's.
Midrange and highs were exceptional. The midrange didn't have the dynamics of live instruments. Otherwise, no faults in midrange and highs. Roger had better midrange in his car a few years back. Very high scores were deserved for midrange and highs. No colouration, and no distortion I can hear.

Midbass lacked a lot of lower end, and wasn't pleasing to the ear. The sound presented was very thin, and I can imagine if I drove with this tune, I will get listening fatigue quite quickly. It sounded restricted, like woofers which were not fully broken in.

Subbass was too loud and boomy, and drowned out the front stage, but did the lower notes very well. There was way too much ~50Hz sound coming from the sub. The bass was distracting as well, I would probably would have liked to hear this car with the sub off.
Spectral balance: definitely a lot of cars at the show with better spectral balance in my opinion. Everything together did not sound like live acoustic performances I've attended. The lack of midbass and overpowering bass being the most prominent facets, and overall did not sound natural, nor did I get any impression of the space the recordings were performed in.

However, I was glad for the opportunity to finally hear a car with multiple 20s by IASCA's criteria in tonal accuracy, and I will use this information to tune my car in future.

I would imagine that jon and dinelle have quite a bit of experience listening to cars so i would take it for granted that loud and boomy means loud and boomy. Dinelle also commented that the sub bass was too much. I was wondering how does "too much" and "loud and boomy" equate to 19?

Jon and Dinelle also commented that the midbass lacked warmth no fullness, no low end and sounded thin. How does this also equate to 19?

I am in no way attacking the scores i am just wondering how these 2 very credible listeners commented on these two sections in this way but yet it scored as such.

Unfortunately i can only comment on the comments and i was out of the country on that date but i would definitely like to get a first hands listen to it

anyone can comment on the imaging and staging?

[evolution7tt]

Finally I can comment here.

I share the same sentiments as Jon. I heard the car from the driver's seat, one time.

I told SR first off, that the car was way to bright for my ears, the tweeter, though free from distortion, was a lot louder than the midrange. I asked where the midwoofers were crossed and was told that it was 50Hz. The midrange by itself is quite good and if that tweeter is turned down, can blend well on the higher frequencies.

BUT..
I heard no continuity between the lower end of the midrange and the upper end of the subwoofer's range, the subbass, as stated above, was excessively loud, had a lot of energy in the 45-55Hz region and imo, even louder than the contraption I brought to last year's finals.

Listening position was at the near end of the dashboard, stage width was excellent. Height hovered around 2 inches or less above the dash. The tracks I listened to were not pure SQ tracks, however, from what I heard, there was a very diffused center image. It also wandered a bit wrt frequency.

[ruffneck_12]

Can someone clear this up for me? :1. The Ultimate Iridium sub has a Fs of around 40Hz yet its freq range is down to 25Hz... sup with that?

2. I thought a low Fs is good for a SQ sub

(I'm a n00b still)

[Sully]

I would imagine that jon and dinelle have quite a bit of experience listening to cars so i would take it for granted that loud and boomy means loud and boomy. Dinelle also commented that the sub bass was too much. I was wondering how does "too much" and "loud and boomy" equate to 19?

Not very much and both deal with loudness. -1 for that.

Jon and Dinelle also commented that the midbass lacked warmth no fullness, no low end and sounded thin. How does this also equate to 19?

The rules state "A Judge will use the six basic characteristics that describe a tone when evaluating Tonal Accuracy and Spectral Balance; Loudness, Pitch, Timbre, Modulation, Duration and Attack & Decay."

Warmth, and fullness is not something that I could score. The low end of the midbass frequencies were handled by the subwoofer. The low end of the midbass suffered from the same problems as the sub, -1 for that. The rest of the midbass sounded fine. Although some systems don't sound warm or full it does still sound technically correct.

I am in no way attacking the scores i am just wondering how these 2 very credible listeners commented on these two sections in this way but yet it scored as such.

Unfortunately i can only comment on the comments and i was out of the country on that date but i would definitely like to get a first hands listen to it

anyone can comment on the imaging and staging?

Imaging and staging was not that great. I'd say middle of the pack.

[SR]

welcome all the comments and opinions


somthing to note

this car was not built for sq competition and was presented as it was tuned for everyday listening
only changes done were actual position of the seat
automatic time alignment from the head unit for right side seating position
-3db down on the gain for the subwoofer and based on the judges opinion it seems that it wasnt enough and when re listening to the car i agree the subwoofer does take away from the lower end of the mid bass very slightly as well as it does pull the sound back thus affecting lsitening position scoring
in my opinion the midrange and high freq response is near perfect and on checks with the rta when the car was being tuned it shows there are no excessive peaks on the high freq response in relation to the midrange
there is however a huge peak from 80hz go down
this has been rectified somewhat as the xover pt on the sub has been lowered from 50hz to 40hz
these speakers were brand new when the car was judged and since then has been broken in a bit more and the lower freq ext has improved however i now have very slight door panel rattle


personally these speakers sound fantastic for its price range and it has shown it can run with many other higher priced speaker systems

keep in mind the car was judged according to a rule book and test disc and i personally have heard many cars worldwide that score well but would not be my choice to listen to on a daily basis

this car is pleasing to listen to on a daily basis and thats the reason it was built this way

[nigel1977]

I would imagine that jon and dinelle have quite a bit of experience listening to cars so i would take it for granted that loud and boomy means loud and boomy. Dinelle also commented that the sub bass was too much. I was wondering how does "too much" and "loud and boomy" equate to 19?

Not very much and both deal with loudness. -1 for that.

Jon and Dinelle also commented that the midbass lacked warmth no fullness, no low end and sounded thin. How does this also equate to 19?

The rules state "A Judge will use the six basic characteristics that describe a tone when evaluating Tonal Accuracy and Spectral Balance; Loudness, Pitch, Timbre, Modulation, Duration and Attack & Decay."

Warmth, and fullness is not something that I could score. The low end of the midbass frequencies were handled by the subwoofer. The low end of the midbass suffered from the same problems as the sub, -1 for that. The rest of the midbass sounded fine. Although some systems don't sound warm or full it does still sound technically correct.

I am in no way attacking the scores i am just wondering how these 2 very credible listeners commented on these two sections in this way but yet it scored as such.

Unfortunately i can only comment on the comments and i was out of the country on that date but i would definitely like to get a first hands listen to it

anyone can comment on the imaging and staging?

Imaging and staging was not that great. I'd say middle of the pack.

Please allow my comments...

In music, timbre ( /ˈtæmbər/ tam-bər or /ˈtɪmbər/; French: [tɛ̃bʁ]) is the quality of a musical note or sound or tone that distinguishes different types of sound production, such as voices and musical instruments. The physical characteristics of sound that mediate the perception of timbre include spectrum and envelope. In psychoacoustics, timbre is also called tone quality and tone color. (Wiki)

Terms like warmth, fullness are attributes of timbre, and is directly related to the quality of the tone. Question, did the drum sound like a drum? I'd say no, it lacked the fullness in sound of a real drum. End of story. I'm not going to merit what score it should get.

Did the xylophone sound real, no, but it was very close.

Did the cymbals crash sound real, reluctantly, I would say yes.

Did the pipe organ blast sound real, no, It was over exaggerated and loud.

Ignoring crossover points, and where the sound came from, i.e what location, listening position... the car TECHNICALLY scored good.



Subjective listening will always have difference in opinions. Personally, regardless of price point of speaker, or intended marketing, this car was not tonally accurate, (by iasca standards it was). The spectral balance needs some improvement. Whether this car was built for daily driver, the speakers were a bess deal, they were gotten from a raffle or whatever, the car competed. The car was prepared for a sound competition, That fact negates everything else. The cost of the speakers is irrevalant. Thats a marketing strategy and deserves no creedence.

A lot of people will read this thread, and go away with either two impressions...
1. People fighting down the 97

or

2. People justifying the 97.


Ive recieved 20's in my history of car audio competitions, and I have heard other cars that didnt get 20's that sounded better, to me. Does that mean that Iasca's weighting system is flawed? I would say no. Iasca needs to spend more effort explaining how they score. I have attended no less that 3 sets of judges training, 2 in trinidad and one in atlanta, with 3 different trainers and the one common thing I learnt is, ... does a snare sound like a snare? It boils down to a point of reference. A musician will have the best terms of reference. Someone who attends church where there is a church choir and a band will have a better reference.

In closing, Shazad's car did not sound like real instruments except for coming very close to with the midrange and treble,.For a daily driver, I could not listen to this car. The sound was not involving, there were not instances where the sound or a particular note invoked me to raise the volume, meaning, wow that sounds great, lets hear that again. Perhaps it was the loud exhaust, perhaps it was the loud subbass.






What are my terms of reference?

Pipe Organs... best pipe organ in san fernando.. RC church. I attended san fernando boys rc. I KNOW that sound.

Drums/Percussion... 1. My family has Tassa and a kirtan group So I KNOW Dhantal, Dholak and Majeera, I practiced with them, Im no expert, I Know the sound, 2. Hours and hours of scouts marching band practice time

Woodwinds... My cousin plays concert level Oboe and Piccolo.

Strings...1. Cousin Plays Sitar, 2. I'm learning to play guitar.

[SR]

damn loud exhaust but i dont have the heart to remove it when i heard what it cost

[evolution7tt]

I don't think ANY car there was built with the primary goal being IASCA competition. They are all daily drivers.