Soca Monarch prediction thread...

[Humes]

I really didn't like how he (Machel) felt it necessary to disrespect Bunji and Fay Anne. The other piccong was fine, but that "Fay Anne is the man, Bunji is the woman" thing was going a lil too low. Why would a "golden child" have to sink to such levels any way, if he knew he was going to be the outright winner?

It's attitudes like this that have Machel feeling he could do/walk over, anyone he wants, when he wants, with no consequence.

Once yuh see yuh getting into the personality zone, I hadda start questioning where yuh coming from. Because out of his "robbed" competitors, one allegedly dragged their own mother out on to the street and beat her, one is a known vapid diva who physically attacked another performer unprovoked, one is a notoriously pigheaded soca mafioso and one has written gunman tunes (both before and after promising to never write gunman tunes again).

So I focus on the music and performances, because me eh friends with none of them.

I think the bigger issue at play here is anti-Machel sentiment. And that sentiment is directly related to the realisation that the only reason people like Bunji and Iwer have been as successful in Soca Monarch over the years is because Machel didn't take part. People (not necessarily you) totin feelings because the big fish has returned.

Yuh doh hadda be a Machel fan to acknowledge his status and accomplishments. They there in black and white. And all these poor underdogs who get tief...them have multiple road march and soca monarch behind dey name.

But i'd argue that it was people like Superblue, who infact were the pioneers and Machel simply took what they did and made it more relevant to younger generations.

Have you been reading my posts? You keep repeating everything I say to somehow contend what I've already said:

For better or for worse, Big Truck was the tune that defined the type of soca that Super Blue pioneered.

[Humes]

You keep contradicting yourself. you admit that machel had been a local icon way before "big truck" came along?
And by this time he had made a considerable name for himself?
Yet you don't think that it took Machel singing this song to make it a hit.
You think if ANY other artist sang that song, it would have been the hit that it was?
It took the right song, by the right artist, at the right time...that's right! it took the hype surrounding Machel and his "name" to make the song what it apparently is.

No, you keep either misunderstanding or intentionally twisting my points.


Machel was known and beloved by many. But he wasn't an icon. As I wrote very clearly, "Machel wasn't even Machel yet." So yes, his name carried some weight...but it definitely didn't ensure him any soca success. The song was bigger than he was.

In fact a common sentiment at the time was, "That is Machel Montano?" The irony is that many of the older heads who found him so impressive and cute when he sang "Too Young to Soca" were flabbergasted by the tune, and later began to feel alienated from Carnival by the trend it started. Most young people only knew Machel from that one tune and their parents' adoration for him.

In later years, sure, people came to expect road march hits from the performer who redefined the road march, but at that point Machel didn't equate to Road March Hit at all.

Had anyone else sang that tune, it would have been just as huge. The fact that Machel sang it worked more to his benefit, as part of his unique career narrative, than to the tune's success.

[shogun]

Once yuh see yuh getting into the personality zone, I hadda start questioning where yuh coming from. Because out of his "robbed" competitors, one allegedly dragged their own mother out on to the street and beat her, one is a known vapid diva who physically attacked another performer unprovoked, one is a notoriously pigheaded soca mafioso and one has written gunman tunes (both before and after promising to never write gunman tunes again)..

Nah, would never defend Bunji and Fay-Anne's personality, because they aint no saints either, from what i've heard. Just saying if people don't start listening to the songs and not just going along with whatever crap is handed out to them, because is ah "big artiste." The quality of the music only going to get worse. Or giving the big artiste the "win" just because of the name he/she has in the business.

But i'd argue that it was people like Superblue, who infact were the pioneers and Machel simply took what they did and made it more relevant to younger generations.

Have you been reading my posts? You keep repeating everything I say to somehow contend what I've already said:

For better or for worse, Big Truck was the tune that defined the type of soca that Super Blue pioneered.

[/quote]

Yeah, read that. yet you still wrote this:

Bunji and all dem others know their place because without Machel and Xtatic, they wouldn't even exist as they do today.

That eh no hype...that is reality.

So i just wanted to show how you're playing both sides of the fence in a way.
In other words, i'm saying, that even if Machel wasn't the huge artist, he appears to be now. I think we would still have a healthy soca scene and many of the artists we have now.

Hear wah, lewwe juss be glad the man win $2M nah? ... meh hand tired.

[Humes]

So i just wanted to show how you're playing both sides of the fence in a way.
In other words, i'm saying, that even if Machel wasn't the huge artist, he appears to be now. I think we would still have a healthy soca scene and many of the artists we have now.

I'm saying that Big Truck, via Machel, is what started the trend that all of them have been riding for the last decade plus.

I eh saying soca would have somehow died or never changed ir Machel wasn't around...but he was a critical catalyst for what it's become.

Just saying if people don't start listening to the songs and not just going along with whatever crap is handed out to them, because is ah "big artiste." The quality of the music only goig to get worse.

I agree, but that is not a Machel issue. That is a soca industry and cultural issue. Every one of the "robbed" artistes...almost every finalist in that competition, have benefited from that kind of thinking.

The soca scene (hell, the international music scene) is like professional wrestling. It fundamentally rigged. But that doh mean it devoid of entertainment value, or that none of the performers deserve their success.

[shogun]

So i just wanted to show how you're playing both sides of the fence in a way.
In other words, i'm saying, that even if Machel wasn't the huge artist, he appears to be now. I think we would still have a healthy soca scene and many of the artists we have now.

I'm saying that Big Truck, via Machel , is what started the trend that all of them have been riding for the last decade plus.

I eh saying soca would have somehow died or never changed ir Machel wasn't around...but he was a critical catalyst for what it's become.

Just saying if people don't start listening to the songs and not just going along with whatever crap is handed out to them, because is ah "big artiste." The quality of the music only goig to get worse.

I agree, but that is not a Machel issue. That is a soca industry and cultural issue. Every one of the "robbed" artistes...almost every finalist in that competition, have benefited from that kind of thinking.

Not true. when Fay Anne got her first big win, she was the underdog to Destra and it's only because her song was better/more relevant, that she rightfully won. Same with Bunji after Iwer had been the frontrunner for years, but again his songs gave him more relevance and therefore the win.

The soca scene (hell, the international music scene) is like professional wrestling. It fundamentally rigged. But that doh mean it devoid of entertainment value, or that none of the performers deserve their success.

I would never begrudge any artist their success, they ALL work hard.

[RASC]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

I wanted Iwer to win..

Machel's performance was MUCH better, hence he deserved the win.

The reasons for entering, the political banter etc matters NOT-an Iwer victory would've been a one in a million chance, WHY? Because he just cannot perform...I'm sorry to break it to you-his breathing is poor and stag presence robotic.

Congrats to Mr. Montano.
Now let's end all the blabber on the REAL BOSS of Live Performances:



^^^TALK NAH /fin

[shogun]

^You sir are hereby Knighted..... naice vid.

[Humes]

Not true. when Fay Anne got her first big win, she was the underdog to Destra and it's only because her song was better/more relevant, that she rightfully won. Same with Bunji after Iwer had been the frontrunner for years, but again his songs gave him more relevance and therefore the win.

There's much more at stake than the win. All of these people you're mentioning came out strong and then benefited from mafia overexposure in later years. All won Road Marches and Soca Monarchs. All have been accused of winning wrongly or tiefing some title.

All have benefited from the same kind of unthinking support you're accusing Machel fans of.

By the way, I'd be very careful about claiming Faye-Ann's song was "better/more relevant" than Destra's. For a man who remembering public debates about the quality of Big Truck in 1997, I find yuh forgetting the outright cries of corruption from 2003. That was one of the controversies that brought the existence of the soca mafia to the attention of the public. It have a lot more to Faye-Ann and Bunji's emergence (and Destra, and Iwer) than "underdog" success.

[Lucian-2nr]

[shogun]

Not true. when Fay Anne got her first big win, she was the underdog to Destra and it's only because her song was better/more relevant, that she rightfully won. Same with Bunji after Iwer had been the frontrunner for years, but again his songs gave him more relevance and therefore the win.

There's much more at stake than the win. All of these people you're mentioning came out strong and then benefited from mafia overexposure in later years.All won Road Marches and Soca Monarchs. All have been accused of winning wrongly or tiefing some title.

All have benefited from the same kind of unthinking support you're accusing Machel fans of.

By the way, I'd be very careful about claiming Faye-Ann's song was "better/more relevant" than Destra's. For a man who remembering public debates about the quality of Big Truck in 1997, I find yuh forgetting the outright cries of corruption from 2003. That was one of the controversies that brought the existence of the soca mafia to the attention of the public. It have a lot more to Faye-Ann and Bunji's emergence (and Destra, and Iwer) than "underdog" success.

What are you trying to say? because i'm lost. You're saying they "came out strong" yet you're also saying they didn't deserve their initial wins because of corruption?.
And i didn't give their initial wins credit because of "underdog success" because, i don't know what that is.

I agree, but that is not a Machel issue. That is a soca industry and cultural issue. Every one of the "robbed" artistes...almost every finalist in that competition, have benefited from that kind of thinking.

I was saying that even though a competition might have a frontrunner usually the "big artiste", it doesn't mean another artist (lesser known, or expected to win) can't pull it off. Like happened when Faye Anne stole it from Destra and Bunji from Iwer. And yeah, i do think Fay Annes song was more relevant than Destra's, when she first won, because lots agreed with the result, she won the followng year and has been enjoying "big artist" status ever since...so that couldn't be luck alone.
So, in other words, even though they are the "underdogs", they could still win, with the right song....because to me, the term "underdog success" would be kind of a misnomer.

Oh! and BTW, the cries of corruption were happening even before 2003.

[Humes]

You work hard and show your worth to the powers that be. Then you either play along with the mafia or you dare to go against it. Work with them and they help with your exposure, which is enough to push you from talented underdog to champion.

Very few artistes are bigger than that equation. Faye-Ann and Bunji definitely aren't.

Can an underdog's composition become so popular on its own that it wins without help from the powers that be? Sure, but it's a risk few artistes take.

[shogun]

You're saying that Faye-Anne's "meet Superblue or heavy-T" would not have become popular on it's own?
I understand the strangle hold they, (the mafia), has on the industry, but you're giving them too much credit...i still think word of mouth, live performances, and reaction when being played in parties, factors in also.

[Humes]

You're saying that Faye-Anne's "meet Superblue or heavy-T" would not have become popular on it's own?

Dread.

Any song can become popular on its own. But few can gain a Road March/Soca Monarch level of airplay and exposure without help from the powers that be.

[shogun]

Okay, so a song becomes popular. People ask for it in parties, c.d's are being sold, it's being played out of everyones car/home and it garners grass roots support. You're saying the mafia can make another song win the road march inspite of that?. i agree they can help the song bcome an even bigger "hit" or try to covince the public that another song is the contender. but at the end of the day the bands have to obey the wishes of their patrons and play the song they most request.
Like the Destra/ Faye -Anne situation, where inspite of them beating us over the head with Destra's song "it's carnival" with Machel, no less....Faye-Anne's "display" still pulled it off....how do you explain that? i thought he was teh "golden boy?"

[Humes]

Okay, so a song becomes popular. People ask for it in parties, c.d's are being sold, it's being played out of everyones car/home and it garners grass roots support. You're saying the mafia can make another song win the road march inspite of that?. i agree they can help the song bcome an even bigger "hit" or try to covince the public that another song is the contender. but at the end of the day the bands have to obey the wishes of their patrons and play the song they most request.
Like the Destra/ Faye -Anne situation, where inspite of them beating us over the head with Destra's song "it's carnival" with Machel, no less....Faye-Anne's "display" still pulled it off....how do you explain that? i thought he was teh "golden boy?"

Well yuh hadda be something special when a song ends up being a close contender for Road March just because it contains your back-up vocals. Imagine if he'd actually been the main performer. /facetious

When you control what is played on the radio, you control what rises to the top. It's as simple as that. You yourself admitted it that plenty people will just embrace whatever is played/hyped the most. Great songs and performers can be stifled. When last yuh hear Ataklan?

The same way you saying Destra tune was beat over people heads, people was saying Faye-Ann tune was forced down their throats. And up to this day Destra's tune remains much more popular than Display, which I doubt most people can even clearly remember now.

I not defending either, just telling you very plainly that yuh underestimating the very stranglehold you described earlier. And doh doubt for a second that bands will play songs that their masqueraders don't want. Doh doubt that for a second. There were several years well when masqueraders from the big bikini-beads bands complained about that very situation.

[shogun]

Well yuh hadda be something special when a song ends up being a close contender for Road March just because it contains your back-up vocals. Imagine if he'd actually been the main performer. /facetious

you know with that one, you let it be known that yuh biased for the man.

When you control what is played on the radio, you control what rises to the top. It's as simple as that. You yourself admitted it that plenty people will just embrace whatever is played/hyped the most. Great songs and performers can be stifled. When last yuh hear Ataklan?

Because Ataklan is in no way a commercial artiste, doesn't write with expectations of road march or wide spread radio airplay..it's purely for artistic purposes. Does he deserve more airplay?...yeah!
But thats like asking why Radiohead doesn't have a charting hit on the US pop charts.

The same way you saying Destra tune was beat over people heads, people was saying Faye-Ann tune was forced down their throats. And up to this day Destra's tune remains much more popular than Display, which I doubt most people can even clearly remember now.

Well, i remember being in a few fetes, parties etc, and people were asking for Faye- Annes song repeatedly.

I not defending either, just telling you very plainly that yuh underestimating the very stranglehold you described earlier. And doh doubt for a second that bands will play songs that their masqueraders don't want. Doh doubt that for a second. There were several years well when masqueraders from the big bikini-beads bands complained about that very situation.

You have to remember the number of masqueraders in those "bikini-beads", big bands eh! it's alot harder to gain consensus on a favorite song when you have two, or even three contenders and EVERYONE wants their own way.

[Humes]

Because Ataklan is in no way a commercial artiste, doesn't write with expectations of road march or wide spread radio airplay..it's purely for artistic purposes. Does he deserve more airplay?...yeah!
But thats like asking why Radiohead doesn't have a charting hit on the US pop charts.

Road March? shogun, you were around during the 90s?

In the mid-nineties, Ataklan was a rising rapso star with several big hits ("Put It Up", Spanish Girl, Flood on the Main Road among them) that played in and out of the Carnival season. He also had a significant underground following for his less commercial stuff. One of the few local artistes to enjoy that privilege. He had a well-known falling out with *a big radio station owner* (allegedly because *said owner* refused to pay him royalties as that was the implied price of his exposure), and that was the end of Ataklan as we knew him.

You have to remember the number of masqueraders in those "bikini-beads", big bands eh! it's alot harder to gain consensus on a favorite song when you have two, or even three contenders and EVERYONE wants their own way.

Exactly. Which makes it even easier for the mafia to operate with impunity.

[shogun]

Because Ataklan is in no way a commercial artiste, doesn't write with expectations of road march or wide spread radio airplay..it's purely for artistic purposes. Does he deserve more airplay?...yeah!
But thats like asking why Radiohead doesn't have a charting hit on the US pop charts.

Road March? shogun, you were around during the 90s?

In the mid-nineties, Ataklan was a rising rapso star with several big hits ("Put It Up", Spanish Girl, Flood on the Main Road among them) that played in and out of the Carnival season. He also had a significant underground following for his less commercial stuff. One of the few local artistes to enjoy that privilege. He had a well-known falling out with *a big radio station owner* (allegedly because *said owner* refused to pay him royalties as that was the implied price of his exposure), and that was the end of Ataklan as we knew him.

Did i miss something?
Ataklan came out, at a time when the rapso movement had more mainstream appeal. He got good airplay when he enjoyed a position on the cutting edge of that movement....and you attribute his "disappearance", solely on the squabble he had with "said owner" of a big radio station? and nothing to do with the fact that the music changed, got less lyrical and more focused on tempos, rhythm, repitition and wildness?
I guess you think if Ataklan's early, more "radio friendly" works were released today, they'd stand a chance, mafia or no mafia?...lol.

You have to remember the number of masqueraders in those "bikini-beads", big bands eh! it's alot harder to gain consensus on a favorite song when you have two, or even three contenders and EVERYONE wants their own way.

Exactly. Which makes it even easier for the mafia to operate with impunity.

Or! easier for people that don't get their personal choice played, to say *yeah! is the mafia!... that's why they played that other song more*

[Humes]

Did i miss something?
Ataklan came out, at a time when the rapso movement had more mainstream appeal. He got good airplay when he enjoyed a position on the cutting edge of that movement....and you attribute his "disappearance", solely on the squabble he had with "said owner" of a big radio station? and nothing to do with the fact that the music changed, got less lyrical and more focused on tempos, rhythm, repitition and wildness?

You really underestimating the influence of people who control what is played on the radio. Music trends doh just develop on their own. They're nurtured or suppressed depending on exposure.

The downfall of rapso's mainstream appeal can be traced almost directly to Ataklan's fall from grace. He was easily the biggest rapso performer at the time. Remove the torchbearer from the equation, especially under antagonistic circumstances, and an already niche genre loses its footing. It's not like people were getting bored of him or his music.

The rise of repetition and wildness is moot because Ataklan gained plenty of his popularity out of the Carnival season. One of his tunes was specifically marketed as the hottest post-Ash Wednesday local tune. He was gaining popularity as an alternative.

And I think you're forgetting that lyrical compositions actually enjoyed quite a bit of popularity soon after that period in the form of dancehall soca. Hell, up to last year one radio station spent half the year dedicating significant amounts of airtime to playing lyrics-heavy local non-soca music...again, out of the Carnival season.

I guess you think if Ataklan's early, more "radio friendly" works were released today, they'd stand a chance, mafia or no mafia?...lol.

The 1990s commercial work of plenty spotlight artistes wouldn't stand a chance today. But they developed their music according to mainstream tastes over time. Ataklan wasn't given that chance, so we could only wonder what about what could have been.

[AllTrac]

wow.....boring thread is boring....