m15a, m16a camshafts

[Ignorant Ignis]

so far the line up is



greddy
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... ystem.html

monstersport
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... guage%3Dja

Working angle max lift
monster in 256 ext 256 int/ext 8.5mm
greddy in 248 ext 248 int/ext 9.0mm
RRP in 264/ ext 264 ?/?
stock in 240 / ext 240 int/ext 8.3/7.8mm






R's racing

Thank you for your inquiry from RRP website. (http://www.rsrs.jp/en/)
The degrees of cam Both IN and EX are 264 degree and best match for high rpm but in
low rpm, the torque will be little lacking. Regarding 2000 - 3000 rpm, the camshaft we are
developing is the best one for Swift Sport even in Japan, except JWRC Swift car.
This cam was designed by the best cam designer in Japan.
The rev limiter cut in your stock ECU should be re-programmed at your side. Please find
a trustable garage at your side.
As you might know about cams, only changing the stock cams to RRP cam will not perform
the best power gain. The adjusting and installation to the car is very sensitive and required
the skills of worker for shims and valve timing. The valve clearance should be 0.18mm to
0.22mm and the skill of worker will be required the sensitive adjustment.
Even Greddy camshaft, if the technical expert fitted to the car, it might have a power expected.
Anyway, RRP High camshaft series is a high performance than Greddy one, we guarantee.
We will be able to estimate camshaft set, valve spring set, lifter and inner shim set but we
are planning to start to sell those parts in this coming December.
So, please let us estimate you in December again with exact price and shipping fee.
Thanks again for your interest to our products.





which one would you choose and why ?

[Swifted]

you need to come by and have a run in the sleeper. then you'll find it easy to decide!

[Alpha_2nr]

Is this for your car......or an SSS customer?

I can't say I've reached that far down the mod-path......but I'd go with the RRP just for their customer service. I have yet to buy any parts from them (was thinking of a simple thermostat for starters), but even so, they've been more than willing to help / quick to respond to any and all questions.

The RRP angles seem really aggressive though.......are you tuning / what are you using to tune with this? Any exhaust work / intake to work on either end of the engine?

Also, any changes to your valve springs (if going for higher rpm?). IIRC Monster recommends updated springs with their cam set for the ZC31S........

[Ignorant Ignis]

monster sport has been great with there customer service as well ..... very fast response and very cheap shipping with several options to choose from.

another factor is price ....... rrp prices are out of the roof...so i can only imagine how much they gonna cost.

these mods are for my car as all the cams listed work in both the SSS and the IS and has been confirmed by all companies.

valve springs will be changed .... one of the main reasons i am persuaded to go with monster sport.

tuning wise .... dasteck unichip Q+
intake will be a custom built manifold with 48mm itb's that i already have.

i already have extractors ... but i have sourced some relativity cheap stainless steel 4-2-1 that is a better design and size than what i have now. ( modified 4age 20v blacktop)

additional mods will be
4.38 ver1 SSS final drive (ver2 does not bolt up)
sss con rod
low temp thermostat
oil cooler
high pressure read cap
aem uego wide band
and hopefully have the head cleaned up with slight shave.
3 angle valve job (recommended by monster sport)

[Alpha_2nr]

^^Nice lineup there

I see R's mentions that a "too low temp" thermostat can affect VVT operation. IIRc, the 4AGE cars had a similar thing, whereby their variable valving system would not operate when the engine was cold.....not sure if it's a marketing gimmick on R's part or not for the M16A/M15A...but still.....just thought I'd throw that out there........



The ver1 SSS has a 4.38 final drive? I thought that the ver 1 was only a 4.1 and the ver2 had the shorter final drive????



Other than that.....dude...you've gotta document this mini-build/cam-installation&tune. Looks like it's gonna be wicked

[Ignorant Ignis]

^^Nice lineup there

I see R's mentions that a "too low temp" thermostat can affect VVT operation. IIRc, the 4AGE cars had a similar thing, whereby their variable valving system would not operate when the engine was cold.....not sure if it's a marketing gimmick on R's part or not for the M16A/M15A...but still.....just thought I'd throw that out there........



The ver1 SSS has a 4.38 final drive? I thought that the ver 1 was only a 4.1 and the ver2 had the shorter final drive????



Other than that.....dude...you've gotta document this mini-build/cam-installation&tune. Looks like it's gonna be wicked

don't worry about the thermostat issue .... i am under the belief they were speaking about temperate countries ..... it is true when the engine in cold the VVT does not kick in .... you can actually hear the cams rattle

your are right about the final drive my mistake ...... 4.1:1

[Swifted]

monster sport has been great with there customer service as well ..... very fast response and very cheap shipping with several options to choose from.

another factor is price ....... rrp prices are out of the roof...so i can only imagine how much they gonna cost.

these mods are for my car as all the cams listed work in both the SSS and the IS and has been confirmed by all companies.

valve springs will be changed .... one of the main reasons i am persuaded to go with monster sport.

tuning wise .... dasteck unichip Q+
intake will be a custom built manifold with 48mm itb's that i already have.

i already have extractors ... but i have sourced some relativity cheap stainless steel 4-2-1 that is a better design and size than what i have now. ( modified 4age 20v blacktop)

additional mods will be
4.38 ver1 SSS final drive (ver2 does not bolt up)
sss con rod
low temp thermostat
oil cooler
high pressure read cap
aem uego wide band
and hopefully have the head cleaned up with slight shave.
3 angle valve job (recommended by monster sport)

interesting ...then the cylinder heads may be the same after all!

[Ignorant Ignis]

monster sport has been great with there customer service as well ..... very fast response and very cheap shipping with several options to choose from.

another factor is price ....... rrp prices are out of the roof...so i can only imagine how much they gonna cost.

these mods are for my car as all the cams listed work in both the SSS and the IS and has been confirmed by all companies.

valve springs will be changed .... one of the main reasons i am persuaded to go with monster sport.

tuning wise .... dasteck unichip Q+
intake will be a custom built manifold with 48mm itb's that i already have.

i already have extractors ... but i have sourced some relativity cheap stainless steel 4-2-1 that is a better design and size than what i have now. ( modified 4age 20v blacktop)

additional mods will be
4.38 ver1 SSS final drive (ver2 does not bolt up)
sss con rod
low temp thermostat
oil cooler
high pressure read cap
aem uego wide band
and hopefully have the head cleaned up with slight shave.
3 angle valve job (recommended by monster sport)

interesting ...then the cylinder heads may be the same after all!

i now for sure all m series blocks are the same ...... not sure about the head in the low comp engines

[Alpha_2nr]

^^Well chances are your M15A head might be different to the M15A found in the std / GLX swift now? IIRC, the 1.5 swifts run sign. lower compression than in the H*81S cars.

[Swifted]

i really think it's time someone sat down in front a parts catalogue, and figure out the part number differences. it'll help out a bunch!

[rado]

so far the line up is


Working angle max lift
monster in 256 ext 256 int/ext 8.5mm
greddy in 248 ext 248 int/ext 9.0mm
RRP in 264/ ext 264 9.00 MM
stock in 240 / ext 240 int/ext 8.3/7.8mm


which one would you choose and why ?

My prefference would always be RRP. The reason, besides their good service ethic; they have perhaps invested the most time and effort developing the the SSS; not just churning out products to sell!

They have developed the car as a whole, from body, to suspension to engine. They are actively involved in racing the SSS, and also significnatly involved with the enthusiast scene in Japan where the car has quite a following.

I'm also impressed by the time they take to test and develop thier products. I know it may cost an arm and leg, but they have been testing those cams for the better part of this year now, before releasing them to the public.

BTW as I'm sure you know the stock valve springs are a weak point for anyone pushing NA power on these engines, or anyone flirting with rev limit. The RRP cam package is just that; a package with shims, retainers, springs and the cams.

When you consider you have to pull the engine to change the cams, you might as well do the head gasket too!

If you needed any more encouragement... the package is rumoured to produce over 150 HP at the wheels

I telling you... if I win de lotto saturday, I'll hook myself up with that package ASAP. Till then I'll live vicariously though you guys

[Ignorant Ignis]

^^^^^ i agree with your there with RRP's reputation ..... but monster sport has spent even more time developing the M series engine........and suzuki's on the whole.
with years of experience in hill climb ...JWRC and even the short stint in WRC.

they have been very helpful and sent me alot of very usefull information ....stuff most companies would never send to an end user for trade secret reasons. specific info on polishing and shaving, 3 angle valve job, shimming and valve clearances.

one of my main concerns though is reliability and drive ability. so i think i have more or less made up my mind with the monster sport cams and springs.

i am not aiming for big power ..... I AM NOT BUILDING A DRAG CAR OR HIGHWAY TOP END RACER.

as a matter of fact ...the car will have even less top end when i'm done due to the shorter final drive.

this is a autocross/solodex build so low end TQ can't be compromised.

[Alpha_2nr]

^^I tend to agree with unkle Ignis here on this one.

Out of curiosity though, what was Monster's take on the cams w.r.t. the daily driving torque band? I know you say you're looking for low end torque....but how will the torque spred be with these cams?

Can't say for the IS, but at least for the SS, it does indeed feel a little torque-ier than the average 1.6l even in mid range rpm, which is nice as you can overtake even on 5th with no issues.

Also, what redline rpm are you looking at......and any changes to ensure reliability at sustained higher rpms (rebuild?) ?

BTW as I'm sure you know the stock valve springs are a weak point for anyone pushing NA power on these engines, or anyone flirting with rev limit. The RRP cam package is just that; a package with shims, retainers, springs and the cams.

rado, weren't the valve springs uprated for the version 2 cars?

[rado]

I hear you!

I dont know much history about monster, but from your account they seem quite solid. I think that we agree that its valuable to go with a company with history in developing an engine platform. Also it is wise to go with a "package" from one source with proven results.

For your build, being mindful of your goals, I would guess either option would be reliable. Perhaps you should pay close attention to the dyno charts for each product.

I suspect you will be more intrested in the characteristic of the power delivery rather than the peak or max figures. Tourque cures will be a factor too. You may want the flatter torque curve with the broadest power band possible.

This will be your challenge. You don't want to "live" at the red line. But the thing is, anytime you increase power on a small displacement engine, through VE improvements, it usually comes at the top end, and at the expense of low end driveability.

One possible alternative you may consider is raising compression with the stock cams tuned to broaden the mid range!

what do you think????

[rado]

BTW... I did this with my last motorcycle [1000CC Yamaha] with very good results, so I have some history with this.

[rado]

^^

BTW as I'm sure you know the stock valve springs are a weak point for anyone pushing NA power on these engines, or anyone flirting with rev limit. The RRP cam package is just that; a package with shims, retainers, springs and the cams.

rado, weren't the valve springs uprated for the version 2 cars?

Hey Knight1

I think the "uprated springs" is a comparison between the regular swift and the sport. The sport springs are fine with the stock cams and the stock rev limit, but changing either in search of performance is not advised. My conversations with RRP confirm this.

The R's tuned e-manage ultimate raised the rev limit from 7200 to 7600, but this is now standard for the version 2 SSS.

I've seen some you tube stuff with guys raising the rev limit to 8000 on stock engines. Well, sure it would last a while... but not recomended for long term use.

Donsn't make much sense also since peak power on a stock SSS drops off after 5500! Talk about VE limitations

[Ignorant Ignis]

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... -2264.html


all valve spring rates listed there .....
monster's website has more information when u translate the Japanese
rather than using the English website.

the information sent to me is in PDF format ...so i don't think i can post it here.

[Ignorant Ignis]

Spring rate

29.20N/mm 29.20N/mm - monster 8200 - 8500rpm

21.25N/mm 21.25N/mm - version 1 7000rpm

21.85N/mm 21.85N/mm - version 2 7500rpm

[Swifted]

I hear you!

One possible alternative you may consider is raising compression with the stock cams tuned to broaden the mid range!

what do you think????

this I know as a fact will improve the torque band!

i am not aiming for big power ..... I AM NOT BUILDING A DRAG CAR OR HIGHWAY TOP END RACER.

as a matter of fact ...the car will have even less top end when i'm done due to the shorter final drive.

what is the stock ratio? and what are you lowering it too? I've gone from 4.1:1 to 4.38:1 and it makes quite a difference to acceleration!

[Ignorant Ignis]

3.8 to 4.1

[Swifted]

that's not too different from mine. you'll finally be able to get out of 2nd, lol!

[Alpha_2nr]

Hey Knight1

I think the "uprated springs" is a comparison between the regular swift and the sport. The sport springs are fine with the stock cams and the stock rev limit, but changing either in search of performance is not advised. My conversations with RRP confirm this.

The R's tuned e-manage ultimate raised the rev limit from 7200 to 7600, but this is now standard for the version 2 SSS.

I've seen some you tube stuff with guys raising the rev limit to 8000 on stock engines. Well, sure it would last a while... but not recomended for long term use.

Donsn't make much sense also since peak power on a stock SSS drops off after 5500! Talk about VE limitations

Yep...but see Unkle Iggy's post above, the ver 2 cars have the uprated valve springs over the ver 1 SS's for the slighter higher rev limit.

Doesn't matter though, as both will probably give you float north of 8500 rpm anyways

[rado]

monster's website has more information when u translate the Japanese
rather than using the English website.

....

ok I'm now officially a fan of this google translate thing....

[rado]

Hey Knight1

I think the "uprated springs" is a comparison between the regular swift and the sport. The sport springs are fine with the stock cams and the stock rev limit, but changing either in search of performance is not advised. My conversations with RRP confirm this.

The R's tuned e-manage ultimate raised the rev limit from 7200 to 7600, but this is now standard for the version 2 SSS.

I've seen some you tube stuff with guys raising the rev limit to 8000 on stock engines. Well, sure it would last a while... but not recomended for long term use.

Donsn't make much sense also since peak power on a stock SSS drops off after 5500! Talk about VE limitations

Yep...but see Unkle Iggy's post above, the ver 2 cars have the uprated valve springs over the ver 1 SS's for the slighter higher rev limit.

Doesn't matter though, as both will probably give you float north of 8500 rpm anyways

I believe you are correct sir!

[Swifted]

^^the beauty of light Valve train components (OHC FTW!).

on the GTi, the standard Valve springs can go safely to 8,600rpm! it's just that peak power occurs at 6,800 with stock bump sticks, so it don't make any sense, hence they limit them to 7,400.

[rado]

Here's a possible reliability issue.....

not sure if the monster setup includes retainers; if not,

does anyone have info on the ability of the stock retainers to hold up under the stress of the monster valve springs??

[Swifted]

the main reason for replacing the retainers is actually to lighten the valve-train. Unless of course the manufacturere chose to use sintered type material which wouldn't be very reliable under hi-load/hi-rpm conditions. Titanium is the obvious choice for srength, low weight & reliability.

[jm3]

anyone actually ordering cams for sss?

[Ignorant Ignis]

^^^^^^don't think any sss owners ready to pull there engine out

[jm3]

im getting there lol