Proposal for regularising Crowd pleaser competitions

[SR]

This is my proposal

ALL crowd please vehicles must go thru preliminary rounds b4 competition
and this will be done on the meter

round 1 30 sec peak spl
round 2 30 sec average spl

both these score will be totalled and the 2 highest scoring cars will proceed to the arena


this eliminates having a dozen cars in the arena at the same time and having the crowd split across the width af the arena making it difficult to ascertain which car the corwd cheered louder for when it was split over 100ft

this also ensures that the 2 loudest cars in each category are in the arena eliminating cars that jsut dont cut the grade for the competition field at a particular event ie does make sense wasting time on cars that just are not as loud as the rest of competition on that day

with only 2 cars now in the arena then there can only be 1 winner and its easier now for the crowd to decide who they like

and even with that it can be decided on the meter as the mic can be placed and measure the crowds response and it will be seen on the displays so there can be no dispute as to who the crowd cheered louder for


All categories remain the same all rules regarding categories remain the same
note
prelimnary rounds can be done the same time spl competiton is being done so that by 6 or 7pm crowd pleaser can start on time
2 vehicles per category
and then leave enought time for any "clash" afterwards





What does this do ......

1 Speeds up the competition process
2 Ensures fair judging and no cheating
3 Eliminates cars that just are not loud enough but have walked with a maxi load of people to cheer

4 Encourages competitiors to build better vehicle to become more competetive rather than relying on crowd support

5 Improves the standard of the vehicles in competition

Gives crowd satisfaction of actually being able to hear the loudest vehicles in the category

[kyle]

I like this idea.

But how about you have 3 cars in the arena instead of 2.

It will be more exciting that way. The spectators will have more fun i suppose

[casper]

i like the idea of using meter to measure crowd response but i dont agree with the preliminary rounds...

IMO....EVERYONE should deserve arena time whether you banging or not....you fail to realise how fast competitins are growing SR...just last year around this time MAXIMUM power used on a single sub averaged to be around 3000rms.....now you seeing all kinda 5000rms....7000rms etc on a SINGLE sub....

^^^you asking yourself where i getting with this right???...you ever realise that there are young ones now comming up in the game that CANT afford these high end equipment but still want to try because of their passion and love for the sport....even if these ppl sounding shiddy...they STILL deserve to get a chance....and with this preliminary rounds i can assure you that the young ones now comming in will feel discouraged...it may not even be a case of a young one cant afford high end equip to b able to reach arena...it could very well be a case of an individual just not finding it feasible to spend alot of money just to keep up with the others so he could get "arena time"

there are alot of competitors in these shows whose SPL arent as high as the other cars in their categories but they sound wayyyy cleaner and more balanced....the meter testing SPL alone will not take into consideration if the car sounding balanced or not....next ting yuh know yuh end up with one setta cars in the arena with hard bass and they mids sounding $hitty no a$$....what will be ure proposal then???

the judge category that we have not only focuses on bass alone....but on how your mids sound and also how well your bass and mids balance...as i said...we not officially trained but i can safely say that we are experienced enough to know what a good system should sound like...since MK recruited riad and myself as judges we getting alot of great reviews on the outcome of the judged categories in his shows these days....

the MK forum is filled with sound boyz (actual competitors) and after each show they come and post their thoughts on the forum....

http://z11.invisionfree.com/mktrinieven ... 440&st=220

^^^in this example....look riad iz a judge for us and for this particular show he played a curse by mistake....disqualification in he MC

http://z11.invisionfree.com/mktrinieven ... 106&st=320

^^^read this too

[MBC Autotronix]

SR's proposal seems fair.
However, if there are more than 2 cars in the arena, maybe instead of lining them up horizontally across the arena (in front the crowd) and having them play, maybe they should form a line behind each other at a central spot after one car plays, it can drive off then the other one behind it plays etc.
That is probly another method of elminating the crowd cheer after it's split over 100ft

[edhardy]

^^^^^^^^^^^
Well thought out casper
Spl only limited to the bassline.

However i agree with sr to a point, it would be nice to have SPL scoring integrated into the criteria in some way.

[shotcaller]

^^^^ casper makin alot of sense.... my vehicle is a caravan wt 2 600rms 10s.. i cud neva make in spl bt i may sound gud in d arena..

[silent_riot]

3 cars sounds like a good idea.
However, what if one just comes with a bassline and a crowd i.e. no midrange of any sort, that person can still win over people who have better spectral balance, due to metering better and louder crowd response.

IMO the midrange and highs should be judged as well on a meter basis.
We tried something like this in the ICE club, where the CP cars were RTA'd with IASCA CD pink noise outside the car at 90dB iirc.

The car was 6ft away from the meter, it doesn't matter of the orientation of the car. Two of the cars who participated produced RTA curves which are scorable.
However, we found that in order to make the test more accurate, the environment needs to be quiet and less windy, or the cars need to play pink noise louder, which isn't healthy for the spectators.

Reproducing a quiet environment in a car show is difficult as is, but it can be done in preliminary judging during the day, and will ensure there are no late comers. It would also "train" the crowd to pay attention to the balance of a system, rather than mainly on its loudness.

[altec]

then measure the spl at a reasonable distance from the vehicle, with the top 3 doing battle.

[SR]

i have more thoughts on this but want responses first

casper if you say eevryone deserves arena time

then create categories for the smaller players

as now

lets say single 12 with existing rules

a man with 1 pioneer champion seires 12 has to go up against a man with 1 DD 12
1 man runs 500 watts on the pioneer 12 the other runs 2000 watts on the dd 12

is that fair??

because if it is then the small man has no place in the arena

he doesnt stand a chance unless he walks with a maxi load

so again whats in it for the small man?


3 cars can work
under my suggested format

[pyromaniax]

how about instead of placing them in categories of how many subwoofers and their sizes why not make it a power classifications?

2000rms
3000rms
5000rms
8000rms
10 000rms
and then anything over.

using the meter for the crowd is a good idea and having a limit on the cars in the arena. cuz yes when there is aobut 8 cars for one category some sounded shiddy it its restless.

how about for the preliminaries have a musical track for each car to play and place d meter a certain distance infront of the car and the 3 highest score gets to participate in the arena

[infinite_RPM]

then create categories for the smaller players

X5

my thoughts exactly...

I was tinking to separate 1 12", 2 12", 1 15" and 2 15" each into two categories.....Lightweight an Heavyweight..

Light-500-2000WRMS Per sub
Heavy - 2000+WRMS per sub

but more categories mean that the carshow will have to start earlier..
also way more competitors...But we could always use SR's method to eliminate leaving 3-5 cars.. but this light category will be fair seeing that there is a limit of 2000Wrms per sub.. And the small players can get a chance in on the action.. and maybe more competitors = more supporters...

[infinite_RPM]

........

[audioholic big D]

i agree wit casper,abit butSR, does have a pt but again as pyromaniax, said why can't classification be a way as well like what iasca does for smaller men in de game so that way no one can feel left out or get turned away from the sport ....after all we all do it for the love of the sport right...they could have a rookie , intermediate and expert categories each depending on equipment ..u still get less cars in the arena and a competitive field being generated as well..

[- Rovin's car audio -]

u c d power class categorizing that will fail : - trinis so damn sneaky they will hide amp\s in d spare tire well & have a lil boss amp "to show" that is what they using or hide amps in d sub boxes ....this y iasca stop using "power" as a classification in their comps , also ppl can mod or use cheater amps like how they used to do with orion for example long time ...

[DJ Q]

^That's easy to overcome. Just get a clamp to measure the power going to the sub.

And SR, because one man is using 500w vs 2000w, remember install is the key. I used to be running 750w on a premier and couldn't even reach 130dB.

Light and Heavyweight makes sense to me.

[riadb]

the judged category was introduced to eliminate any aspect of crowd input into the decision.

you could have the LOUDEST vehicle and the LARGEST crowd and still loose in the judged category..

Take the twisted concepts wagon....sometimes the crowd doesn't even acknowledge that the car is in the arena but he's won 1st place judged for the past 3 MK shows for the year....

Using SPL as a way of eliminating competitors is like telling an old man he is "too old" to compete in a marathon.....ketch my drift?? Crowdpleaser will loose alot of competitors this way..

as casper said i got DQ in hillview....my first CP show. Although i didn't mind the DQ it was a nice experience. Imagine building a system, spending your time and money on it, literally putting your blood and sweat into it and then being told you cannot compete because ur numbers aren't enough and you can't even get to buss a tune in the arena???

There is a reason why CP has worked like this for the past decade or so and hasn't changed, making any drastic changes to the already WORKING methods might lead to the end of the sport...

[shaker]

Crowd pleaser is like steelpan music ....... That,s our culture and no matter how much u try to be fair or make things fair in a show there will always be complaining , I mean this is Trinidad.................... Take Iasca shows for example there are still people who feel that they shouldn,t be in a certain category and feel they were cheated no matter how fair the classification was...........Crowd pleaser is we thing leave it alone................

[fuzz_174]

^^

that judged category is real bullshiet in my opinion.. For the last few shows,myself and other members viewed the crowdpleaser competition, and on every occasion, the best sounding vehicle wasnt given the "judged prize"

How is the winner determined in the "judged" class? what is the criteria?

[riadb]

well prolly we need new judges then?????

how about SR, fuzz174, and the other IASCA officials who are present at these shows lend a hand for the judging category??

seems we other judges are missing something when it comes to evaluating sound systems.

[- Rovin's car audio -]

i doubt any of d iasca trained ppl wud want to subject themselves to d kinda mess i hear from some of these vehicles ...besides who going to stand up near some of seriously loud mids stacked on top a vehicle to hear if its sounding clean - not worth messing my ears (2 of d reasons i declined being asked to "judge" CP) ... not worth next day ur ears ringing


so we back to square 1 ....

[riadb]

so daz it then?? discussion was useless??

[- Rovin's car audio -]

well i wouldnt say that - its like all d great new ideas we have at election time yet we go back doing d same mess again & again because that is what d ppl want ....


i like d idea of metering d music from a set point outside d car - who will share d expense of charging for that service & cost of d trophies is up to d show promoter & metering ppl , cost might have to passed on to entrants or if sponsors willing to help ...

[silent_riot]

Peak SPL, Average SPL, RTA, top 3 total scores per class get judged by the crowd response.

My suggestion is that in addition to letting the crowd hear the loudest vehicles according to SR proposals, let them hear the ones that are the best spectrally balanced as well.

You need the crowd involvement if the thing is called crowd pleaser, but not have the whole thing judged by the crowd response.

If judging is to be done, imo it should be done with a fixed set of tracks. Using different tracks in different cars will not work. Humans respond to music too differently for the tracks to be varied.

riadb, please explain:

Using SPL as a way of eliminating competitors is like telling an old man he is "too old" to compete in a marathon.....ketch my drift?? Crowdpleaser will loose alot of competitors this way..

[riadb]

riadb, please explain:

Using SPL as a way of eliminating competitors is like telling an old man he is "too old" to compete in a marathon.....ketch my drift?? Crowdpleaser will loose alot of competitors this way..

it's like telling the man he's too old to compete when actually he might be more fit and in better shape than everybody else..

There are instances where CP vehicles have failed miserably at SPL but perform well at CP. I have seen it happen before.

certain vehicles/equipment layouts/box designs work wonders for SPL, doesn't mean they work well for crowd pleaser.

IMHO the SPL meter can be used to measure the crowd's response..that might put it to better use.

[xeon]

IMHO the SPL meter can be used to measure the crowd's response..that might put it to better use.

i always used to wonder how that will work out

[fuzz_174]

well prolly we need new judges then?????

how about SR, fuzz174, and the other IASCA officials who are present at these shows lend a hand for the judging category??

seems we other judges are missing something when it comes to evaluating sound systems.

I am willing to offer my assistance in whatever way i can, however i value my hearing too much, to stand in front of most of these vehicles..

Just to make it a lil more clear. Its not the "spl" meter that would measure the crowd response, its the old RTA/SPL type mic would be used, which measures a wider range of frequencies.

[riadb]

your help would be appreciated

yea i know....it's the same meter we use at the test and tune

[noyztoyz]

hmm interesting, i think the crowd pleaser thing needs to be dug up a little.

I saw in a show a crew walked with plenty ppl, and won trophies for every single category of 1 12, 2 12, 1 15, 2 15, in one of the categories the had more than one crew member and dey bawl d same way for all.

Its like take the cars out of the arena and leave the driver/owner, and the crowd pleaser competition would go on as usual.. and trophies will be distributed in the end...

but then again dats the name of a, i think senseless competition, that probably was introduced to bring more ppl into a show so more money would be made and the validity of it is now being questioned?... because many ppl are complaining.

what yall think?

[SR]

let me throw this in here


team x has a car in 3 different categories
team x walks with a crew of about 40 people
this crew cheers only for team x in each category and is deemed the winner due to it being the loudest cheering team

is this fair???


then now there is the "judged" category which is suppose to be the flip side to the above situation

but then

no standards used regarding type of music material
basically you play what you want then its up to the judges to decide who they found sounded the best

but based on what

yes i know somthing was stated in a post above but what training does a judge have to determne this??

as well as after being subjected to the dj system for most of the evening are you even aware it reduces your ability to hear properly
we have also seen judges who have been consuming alcohol
we have seen judges who ensure vehicles from a particular shop win
we have seen judges who's vehicles from thier own shop win




IASCA is willing to work with you on this and even offer a judging team to assist
however there must be a given set of rules and standards and it must be available to everyone and not made up at each show



This post comes out of our observation of these event over the last couple of years

and while some may say its working
some dont
and looking in from the outside it is not a fair competition
while crowd pleaser will never be fully controllable regarding fairness there should still be some standards implemented to ensure everyone gets a fair chance


the question is
are you willing to make that step up and raise the standard of the competition

[xeon]

SR i agree totally.