Evolution VS Creation

[.:PROZAC:..]

Semantics,come better than that.

[pandu]

Everything temporary, like this world, the body, the piece ah galvanise in the bush, was created. God, who is eternal, has no creator.

[996vtwin]

What?

It's a logical question, the creator must have been created.

Everything that exists has a creator.

Omnipotence dude, google it.

[Strauss]

my humble question is, who created god?

Being "created" means that one is within linear space/time. And all that is created must have an end.

But if a being exist OUTSIDE of time, then there would be no starting or ending. That being just IS.

Time is only relevant to those who actually live inside it. It's physics at its best.

[Strauss]

What?

It's a logical question, the creator must have been created.

Everything that exists has a creator.

You still thinking in only 4 dimensions.

The Big Bang theory implies that there was a "creator".

Before the big bang, there was nothing (as we know it)... not even SPACE. And a universe cannot start at random, although everything else a millionth of a second after the big bang you can pass off as random.

[John_Doe]

my humble question is, who created god?

Being "created" means that one is within linear space/time. And all that is created must have an end.

But if a being exist OUTSIDE of time, then there would be no starting or ending. That being just IS.

Time is only relevant to those who actually live inside it. It's physics at its best.

yea but i dont think that an object without time would be able to move, seeing that time and velocity are proportional...therefore how can it do anything???

[.:PROZAC:..]

ahahha, allyuh using man made laws of physics to describe God beign able to work outside these laws.... seeing the conundrum?

[John_Doe]

ahahha, allyuh using man made laws of physics to describe God beign able to work outside these laws.... seeing the conundrum?

'Man' dont "make" laws of 'physics',
'man' "discovers" laws of 'physics'

[Alpha_2nr]

Being "created" means that one is within linear space/time. And all that is created must have an end.

But if a being exist OUTSIDE of time, then there would be no starting or ending. That being just IS.

Time is only relevant to those who actually live inside it. It's physics at its best.

Well put! It's just as Prof. Stephen Hawking alluded to in his book, "A brief history of time" - one cannot really think of "time" before the "creation" of the universe, as time itself as we know it, is a function of the universe that "IS" now....and not independent of it.

The Big Bang theory implies that there was a "creator".

Yep. If you stop and think about it, the theory of the occurence of a Big Bang, which creates a universe in which order (as opposed to sheer randomness and chaos) exists, according to certain laws (e.g. laws of physics) almost can be interpreted as the work of a greater being.

Or it may not.

[kes_vtec]

scientist are now finding that the smallest particles of atoms are vibrations
god spoke everything into been

spoken word: vibrations
bang or a loud shout

[MG Man]

my humble question is, who created god?

Being "created" means that one is within linear space/time. And all that is created must have an end.

But if a being exist OUTSIDE of time, then there would be no starting or ending. That being just IS.

Time is only relevant to those who actually live inside it. It's physics at its best.

....and why must there only be one being in this realm?
Why can't it be a race of beings? A committee?

scientist are now finding that the smallest particles of atoms are vibrations
god spoke everything into been

spoken word: vibrations
bang or a loud shout

^^^^^
Hindu philosophy right there
Hinduism is the only religion I have come across that accomodates the big bang theory, as it basically measures the universe's beginning to end as one day in god's life..........but for that to work, the Big Crunch needs to apply, and so far current theories point to a big freeze, ie the universe will continue to expand forever, rather than reach a finite limit of expansion and then begin contracting back on itself, back to a singularity again, and then restart.....

[Strauss]

....and why must there only be one being in this realm?
Why can't it be a race of beings? A committee?

Hindu philosophy right there
Hinduism is the only religion I have come across that accomodates the big bang theory, as it basically measures the universe's beginning to end as one day in god's life..........but for that to work, the Big Crunch needs to apply, and so far current theories point to a big freeze, ie the universe will continue to expand forever, rather than reach a finite limit of expansion and then begin contracting back on itself, back to a singularity again, and then restart.....

I not arguing "God" in the sense of religion, but I am arguing that there MUST be a Creator.

There can't be nothing-ness then one day something random happen to cause the Big Bang. Then we ask, who or what created the big bang? I assume, Kev, that you believe in the Big Bang just as I do.

And who is to say that there aren't beings outside of time?

We only know and think of time as linear because our existence is based on it. Just like we are carbon-based and we require oxygen... most of us closed-minded cannot phantom LIFE based on any other molecules.

[Strauss]

ahahha, allyuh using man made laws of physics to describe God beign able to work outside these laws.... seeing the conundrum?

Physics, maths, philosophy... can tell you:

* how old the universe is
* where the big bang took place
* the size of our spacial universe
* the matter in our universe
* how life started from basic molecules

BUT...

We still don't know WHY?

If this world didn't have a "creator", then WHY did the Big Bang take place? WHY did life randomly appear? Why did quarks, electrons, atoms, molecules, elements, proteins... why did DNA appear?

DNA - our building blocks... and maps each life on the planet before they are born...

Call it God, call it a race of beings, the word or whatever you want... they must have been a "Creator" to will something to happen. There must be purpose for the Big Bang.

[Monk BANzai]

but...why argue on a whole?

[MG Man]

I not totally convinced a bout the 'purpose' thing...........sounds all too human for me
The same way it 'must' have a purpose, the same odds are it just 'is'
Who knows..........but if there is a mastermind, it / they do not deserve the to be glorified.....I still feel we are just some alien kid's version of a red bean seedling in a bottle of wet toilet paper

[RBphoto]

^^^Sometimes I think that we are the toilet paper in that experiment and the developed worls is the redbean, sucking our natural resources dry....or is that just the PNM?

[Strauss]

I not totally convinced a bout the 'purpose' thing...........sounds all too human for me
The same way it 'must' have a purpose, the same odds are it just 'is'
Who knows..........but if there is a mastermind, it / they do not deserve the to be glorified.....I still feel we are just some alien kid's version of a red bean seedling in a bottle of wet toilet paper

Life is about purpose.

I can prove a creator through sciences easily. But the real question is WHY? Why do we have a purpose to begin with? Random life... this 'accident' that happened called the Big Bang and formation of protein into DNA.... randomness can't have a purpose.

And too many people are tied up in the awe of religion to accept that there might be higher forms of beings out there. And those aliens are what some people call Eohim.

If you believe in angels and demons, then you have to realize that they are alien life. Think about it. They are supposedly multi-dimensional, can be invisible, have greater powers over the weather, soil etc.

[MG Man]

I can believe in a mastermind, but not in the sense of a God.....that concept is more perverse than midget porn ........as for the motive / purpose? I don't think there is any grand purpose. We are too insignificant to factor into any purpose......it would be like an amoeba trying to find it's purpose on this earth, other than being a link in the food chain.....purpose? I suppose....grand / divine....naaaaaah

[Monk BANzai]

I can believe in a mastermind, but not in the sense of a God.....that concept is more perverse than midget porn ........as for the motive / purpose? I don't think there is any grand purpose. We are too insignificant to factor into any purpose......it would be like an amoeba trying to find it's purpose on this earth, other than being a link in the food chain.....purpose? I suppose....grand / divine....naaaaaah

yu believe in this?

[MG Man]

for every good one, there are a million oglee ones

[Strauss]

MG Man.. lemme drop some maths on you and you will see why I want to know the purpose...



Let's say there is no grand purpose and it's purely random.

I have two dice, that when I roll snake's eyes, an evolutionary jump takes place. If I roll it 10 times, chance might be that I DON'T get 1's. But, you know from statistics, that the greater the sample you will see that you might get snake's eyes 1 in every 21 times, but you might only see this ratio clearly if you roll the dice over 200 times.

So lets say the Big Bang happen, expands, condenses. The universe rolls the dice 100 times and gets snakes eyes.... yippy... I get helium from those smaller-than-electron dust particles. Now I have gas and its heavy and suns form. Roll some more dice... snakes eyes and I get other elements as electrons, protons, neutrons form atoms and combine into other molecules.

Can you imagine how long it would take to jump from those simple elements to DNA? We not even talking about simple cell organisms yet.. no plankton, amoeba etc... But DNA is SO COMPLEX. I have to roll the dice a million times just to get a single strand to form in the right order to map out a single organism.

The universe is 15 billion years old. With all the variables, even at RANDOM chance, it's not enough time just to get anywhere close to DNA.

So someone or thing is making these things happen in the right order, given the age of our universe. ALL THE LIFE can't even evolve in the 5 billion years the Earth is here, if it was random chances to make evolutionary jump and sciences will say the same.

So we get back to the question... WHY did it take so short of time for evolution?

[MG Man]

DNA is complex compared to what?
What is your benchmark?

[RBphoto]

Improbable is not impossible Strauss.

[MG Man]

Tonight, on an ALL NEW Impossible Strauss, our Hero goes in search of the elusive Symmetrically Perfect Pumpum!

[Strauss]

DNA is complex compared to what?
What is your benchmark?

Water - our basic need.

After our sun cooled down enough and planets took form, millions of years, we have H2O.

Now, randomly, we jump to DNA... after atoms form molecules of C, N, O and H into adenine and thymine... and get this.. in the RIGHT sequence to make thousands of genes --> chromosomes --> DNA?

Man... the BASIC building block of life which is DNA, needs more than 15 billion years to happen at RANDOM, given basic laws STATISTICS.

And we haven't started talking about complex life yet, or sentient life... where an organism becomes aware of itself and the world around it.

[Strauss]

:lol:
Tonight, on an ALL NEW Impossible Strauss, our Hero goes in search of the elusive Symmetrically Perfect Pumpum!

I found it already. It's not symmetrical anymore.

[MG Man]

:lol:
Tonight, on an ALL NEW Impossible Strauss, our Hero goes in search of the elusive Symmetrically Perfect Pumpum!

I found it already. It's not symmetrical anymore.

Divine Intervention?
..........or long division?

[996vtwin]

Show me one piece of evidence of evolution, one fossil that fills in the link....