Universal Basic Income benefits for T&T?

[MaxPower]

This sounds like socialism which has failed in every corner of the world. It will create a dependency syndrome and encourage even less productivity. You mentioned people can quit more stressful jobs but then who will do said jobs. Who will pick up trash if the garbage man can get 3000 to do nothing?

Awaiting OPs comments.

Very good post though DPD, but this is also of a concern.

[88sins]

The government looking to extend the retirement age both for NIS and Pension because they don't have enough money and men talking about universal basic income.

You think we can't afford it? We actually can

Working on the crazy idea that 1/3 of the population qualify for and receive this, that equates to TTD$1.4 per month. Doable? Maybe. Sustainable? Nope.
What you gonna do about when everyone that selling anything increases their prices because they absolutely certain that people have at least $3K more to spend? And what's the plan for the entitlement syndrome that's gonna kick in, as well as for when the lazy and unmotivated people that didn't have or want a job before start getting "free money" and develop an extreme sense of dependency on government giving them free food, clothing, shelter, weed/coke money, etc?

[The_Honourable]

How do you propose UBI be implemented in T&T? Increase taxes? Reduce social programs? Rich and poor getting a check? UBI according to tiers? How much?

I'm asking because many have UBI in mind but have different ways to implement and fund such which is understandable as we dealing with diverse populations, cultures, beliefs, finances, etc.

Tell me what you think is best for Trinidad

Right now, rationalize transfers and subsidies since it consumes over 50% of our national budget per year.

In terms of UBI, as mentioned earlier, at out current financial position we would have to give up most of out current social programs and subsidies plus adjust our taxes upwards to further support it, more than likely VAT.

How do you propose UBI be implemented in T&T?

[jm3]

Who paying t to fund this programme though , more shaft for the taxpayers I guess

As usual pay for everything for everyone else and get little in return for it.

[SR-B14]

I remember when this was called C.O.L.A. Cost Of Living Allowance, which was paid seperately on your paystub, then it was absorbed into your salary.

[hover11]

I remember when this was called C.O.L.A. Cost Of Living Allowance, which was paid seperately on your paystub, then it was absorbed into your salary.

They should rename that as it's not really a cost of living allowance

[88sins]

I remember when this was called C.O.L.A. Cost Of Living Allowance, which was paid seperately on your paystub, then it was absorbed into your salary.

They should rename that as it's not really a cost of living allowance

Kinda pointless to rename something that doesn't exist anymore. That cut since Robbie was pm.

[Dizzy28]

A man create a thread without defending the thread then leave it like a bastard child.

Daran still hasn't said how it can be funded only that it can.

[timothymcdavid]

Strangely enough I was just talking to a co-worker about this in the context of what is happening in the US with their payouts to their residents (yes residents tax paying illegals getting $$$ to apparently).

We will have to seriously address this cause in essence we are already doing this through the inefficiencies in the public service and state enterprises. We have to move to this eventually cause in the near future their wont be jobs for everyone as automation, AI continues to gain ground and wages keep increasing.

How much subsidies do state enterprises like CAL, TTEC, WASA get? I am seeing between 2010-2020 about 300 billion TTD in subsidies overall.

How over staffed are these institutions?

We can afford a form of universal income if we really got serious about staffing, subsidies and collecting revenue.

Where is the revenue authority? We have too many persons not paying their taxes persons who are paying PAYE are getting hit for six and small business owners, professionals (doctors & lawyers) have you paying cash to avoid paying their fair share.

[Dohplaydat]

A man create a thread without defending the thread then leave it like a bastard child.

Daran still hasn't said how it can be funded only that it can.

I was busy hoss.

Strangely enough I was just talking to a co-worker about this in the context of what is happening in the US with their payouts to their residents (yes residents tax paying illegals getting $$$ to apparently).

We will have to seriously address this cause in essence we are already doing this through the inefficiencies in the public service and state enterprises. We have to move to this eventually cause in the near future their wont be jobs for everyone as automation, AI continues to gain ground and wages keep increasing.

How much subsidies do state enterprises like CAL, TTEC, WASA get? I am seeing between 2010-2020 about 300 billion TTD in subsidies overall.

How over staffed are these institutions?

We can afford a form of universal income if we really got serious about staffing, subsidies and collecting revenue.

Where is the revenue authority? We have too many persons not paying their taxes persons who are paying PAYE are getting hit for six and small business owners, professionals (doctors & lawyers) have you paying cash to avoid paying their fair share.

Thanks, so let's say we reduce it to $2000 a month for every adult between 18 and 65. That's roughly 950k adults.

This works out to be 2B a month or 24B a year.

If what timothymcdavid says is true, i.e. 300B in 10 years (which seems oddly high), that's 30B a year.

https://trinidadexpress.com/news/local/ ... 29100.html

Subsidies and transfers have accounted for more than 50 per cent of the country’s annual budget between 2010 and 2020.

In ten of the 11 years between the 2010 and 2020 fiscal periods, the three administrations of that period (PNM, the former People’s Partnership, and PNM) spent or allocated to spend $301.94 billion on transfers and subsidies.

The total expenditure in that period was $578.63 billion, which means that over 52 cents of every dollar spent by the Government between the 2010 and 2020 fiscal years was allocated to transfers and subsidies.

So already you can see we can afford it there. Infact, if the 300B is correct then we could bump it up to $2500.

Eitherway, you only considering the cost, there is a lot of benefits here including a lot more tax collection via VAT, stimulating the local economy significantly which creates jobs and more wealth for everyone.

[timelapse]

Communism doesn't work anywhere other than paper.What will happen is that we become a welfare state.Add to that Trini laziness and smartmanism.We will become the next Venezuela.

[Dizzy28]

A man create a thread without defending the thread then leave it like a bastard child.

Daran still hasn't said how it can be funded only that it can.

I was busy hoss.

Strangely enough I was just talking to a co-worker about this in the context of what is happening in the US with their payouts to their residents (yes residents tax paying illegals getting $$$ to apparently).

We will have to seriously address this cause in essence we are already doing this through the inefficiencies in the public service and state enterprises. We have to move to this eventually cause in the near future their wont be jobs for everyone as automation, AI continues to gain ground and wages keep increasing.

How much subsidies do state enterprises like CAL, TTEC, WASA get? I am seeing between 2010-2020 about 300 billion TTD in subsidies overall.

How over staffed are these institutions?

We can afford a form of universal income if we really got serious about staffing, subsidies and collecting revenue.

Where is the revenue authority? We have too many persons not paying their taxes persons who are paying PAYE are getting hit for six and small business owners, professionals (doctors & lawyers) have you paying cash to avoid paying their fair share.

Thanks, so let's say we reduce it to $2000 a month for every adult between 18 and 65. That's roughly 950k adults.

This works out to be 2B a month or 24B a year.

If what timothymcdavid says is true, i.e. 300B in 10 years (which seems oddly high), that's 30B a year.

https://trinidadexpress.com/news/local/ ... 29100.html

Subsidies and transfers have accounted for more than 50 per cent of the country’s annual budget between 2010 and 2020.

In ten of the 11 years between the 2010 and 2020 fiscal periods, the three administrations of that period (PNM, the former People’s Partnership, and PNM) spent or allocated to spend $301.94 billion on transfers and subsidies.

The total expenditure in that period was $578.63 billion, which means that over 52 cents of every dollar spent by the Government between the 2010 and 2020 fiscal years was allocated to transfers and subsidies.

So already you can see we can afford it there. Infact, if the 300B is correct then we could bump it up to $2500.

Eitherway, you only considering the cost, there is a lot of benefits here including a lot more tax collection via VAT, stimulating the local economy significantly which creates jobs and more wealth for everyone.

Total transfers and subsidies were around 27b in 2019 and less in previous years.

You propose the govnt takes all that away from where they normally go and just give it to individuals as the monthly allowance?

[Dohplaydat]

Dizzy28,

Yes that's the whole idea of UBI. remove all sudsidies (except on health) and put the money in the hands of citizens instead.

[timelapse]

Dizzy28,

Yes that's the whole idea of UBI. remove all sudsidies (except on health) and put the money in the hands of citizens instead.

Define 'citizens'

[Dizzy28]

I would suggest you read the following article by some local economists on transfers and subsidies.

You can't just stop them as it would amplify inequality not end it.

https://trinidadexpress-com.cdn.ampproj ... 29100.html

Dizzy28,

Yes that's the whole idea of UBI. remove all sudsidies (except on health) and put the money in the hands of citizens instead.

[timothymcdavid]

UBI is a subsidy and i would say it is more efficient than having a bunch of individuals in ministries and public corporations being paid 10s of thousand of dollars to essentially do nothing better you pay 4 or 5 people them UBI than to have these so called employees sit around on them fat arses.

This country is run in a very very inefficient manner taxpayers arent getting value for their dollars. IMHO UBI shouldnt be universal should have some conditions attached off the top of my head u got to be over 18+ and have a job paying less than X.

This whole pandemic situation should have highlighted to all reasonable minded persons we cant continue to put up with this nonsense in govt with this duopoly these politicians are playing citizens for fools and have no real vision unless it is enriching themselves, kith and kin.

Bess we demand and get better before the national patrimony run out and this is basically the 11th hour.

[Ted_v2]

horrible idea, too much money in the wrong hands, if i getting a extra 2k a month i looking to blow it out.
PC parts, van parts, parts for meh laurel. it comes like free money that i ain't work for so i don't really care about it.

money i work for however ,i does think more than once about spending it honestly, money that comes from my deals and transactions are easy come easy go and rarely ever hits my savings acc.

[Dohplaydat]

horrible idea, too much money in the wrong hands, if i getting a extra 2k a month i looking to blow it out.
PC parts, van parts, parts for meh laurel. it comes like free money that i ain't work for so i don't really care about it.

money i work for however ,i does think more than once about spending it honestly, money that comes from my deals and transactions are easy come easy go and rarely ever hits my savings acc.

That's exactly the point though, UBI money will stimulate the economy this increasing employment and tax revenues

[sMASH]

U ibis fur the economy, not the indvidual.
Some, even most will waste it, but u will get some people who will use it to innovate a lot more and a lot faster without being constrained by worrying budgeting.

[Ted_v2]

I see, I now understand.

[Dohplaydat]

U ibis fur the economy, not the indvidual.
Some, even most will waste it, but u will get some people who will use it to innovate a lot more and a lot faster without being constrained by worrying budgeting.

Yea that's the point, aside from basically humans being bros to other humans and letting people have a minimum standard of living.

That said, if we give up all subsdies what are we looking at exactly?

Gas, TTEC, WASA being at least double.....what else?

[Blaze d Chalice]

When the figure too low to support the latest Jordans and zess every single day, what you think will happen?

[justheretoreadthecomments]

Back when I was in UWI, I did one of those "summer programmes" to assist the Min of Social Development in the revamping of the food card programme. As you may already know, this programme is... or should be targeted to persons earning in a particular income bracket. The data collection form asked about members of the household, level of education, other qualifications and earnings. What I noticed was that there are alot of persons within that economically active age group, able bodied, but are home, unemployed. Many of them had certificates or some level of training where they could be self employed but choose simply not to do so. The handouts to get food on the table was enough for them, rather than to work and get much more than bare minimum.

With that being said, when you listen to the words of economists like Thomas Sowell, who is strongly against these social protection programmes, giving free money encourages unproductivity. It lead to a rise in the dependency syndrome, and persons staying in certain situations so as maintain "qualification" for Government handouts. There's no hierarchy of needs and need for self actualization for some people, to want to achieve more. They are ok with just getting by. My view is that this should not be encouraged. Persons may find themselves in certain situations and may need some assistance, yes, but these programmes should be temporary and must be conditions based- get a job, get some sort of education etc in order to be self sufficient. I definitely do not agree with taking tax payer's money to support persons who choose to be bums. So much is already free here, there are even training programmes that pay participants to learn (like Ytepp). Go out and work.

[timelapse]

When the figure too low to support the latest Jordans and zess every single day, what you think will happen?

Ent.There are already enough parasites on the welfare system spending money dotish

[Devourment]

Back when I was in UWI, I did one of those "summer programmes" to assist the Min of Social Development in the revamping of the food card programme. As you may already know, this programme is... or should be targeted to persons earning in a particular income bracket. The data collection form asked about members of the household, level of education, other qualifications and earnings. What I noticed was that there are alot of persons within that economically active age group, able bodied, but are home, unemployed. Many of them had certificates or some level of training where they could be self employed but choose simply not to do so. The handouts to get food on the table was enough for them, rather than to work and get much more than bare minimum.

With that being said, when you listen to the words of economists like Thomas Sowell, who is strongly against these social protection programmes, giving free money encourages unproductivity. It lead to a rise in the dependency syndrome, and persons staying in certain situations so as maintain "qualification" for Government handouts. There's no hierarchy of needs and need for self actualization for some people, to want to achieve more. They are ok with just getting by. My view is that this should not be encouraged. Persons may find themselves in certain situations and may need some assistance, yes, but these programmes should be temporary and must be conditions based- get a job, get some sort of education etc in order to be self sufficient. I definitely do not agree with taking tax payer's money to support persons who choose to be bums. So much is already free here, there are even training programmes that pay participants to learn (like Ytepp). Go out and work.

It's easy to predict what happens in a future where UBI is the norm.

Think about what's happening right now in the west.

More and more men are ending up single, alone and addicted to videogames.

Women on the other hand are fighting over the the top 20% of men, it will always seem like they're unavailable though but it's just a Ferris wheel they on, one top man would be rotating women. Leaving them some what's satisfied, and most likely knocked single mothers in the 30s. The successful ones would have landed one of the top 20% of men in marriage.

What is the point of this dose of red pill?

The upcoming next gen of video games will relieve the 80% of men of their failures and loneliness. They'll be addicted to these games every waking hour.

UBI facilitates this and allows big corporations to keep profiting of these people.

Of course many will have jobs, but they'll be low skilled possibly part time jobs.

Once they can eat and buy GPUs and other online subscriptions they will be happy.

This might my be our future, but it will be the future kids.

Kinda sucks but I've been in some deep rabbit holes with this and it's by far our most likely future.

Perhaps the ratios might be off but definitely 50% of men will prefer to live life in a fake reality where they get all their needs met.

[Blaze d Chalice]

Sou Sou will be on the rise.
(NOT the real Sou Sou)