the right to bear arms

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

half the population cannot even handle a car properly / responsibly.....gi dem guns??
O_o

stop pulling stats out yur bamcee plz, nuh bcuz.ppl.doh come "race" in carpark doh mean dey cant drive

but it usually does

drivers who compete in well enforced motorsport events are known to be better drivers on the road - and that is worldwide.

[rocknrolla]

I wonder if Duanes wife and children were raped and abused in his own house while he watches on impotently if he would still have the same opinion!

I am not basing my decision on a petty concept that "oh I'm not affected" that is not the case at all. I think I am absolutely affected and while I do feel more secure mentally with a firearm I do not think that is the answer to our core problem.

I've been held up at gun point and stuffed in my own trunk already (2001) and I still feel the same way about arming citizens.

the point I'm making is that we need to address the issue of bandits coming into people's houses in the first place rather than find a plaster for a sore that would soon fester and next thing we have the wild west where bandits come with a rocket launcher by your house - what then?

there is only one solution that will provide the utopia u speak of. and that is to provide a decent and dignified quality of life and standard of living to every man woman and child in the country so that they are not tempted to risk incarceration and resort to crime for survival/money/jordan sneakers.

and that eh happening no time soon. at least not till i am PM. so in the mean time, keep calm and legalize d gun.

[[X]~Outlaw]

Duane you're talking about escalation but right now law abiding citizens have no means to defend themselves.

If things do escalate and bandits do get "bigger" guns that would still be better than now. Why? Because at least then you have a fighting chance to retaliate, now..you have NONE.

if you are using ratio as an argument i.e. "bigger guns give us a better fighting chance", then should the government allow everyone to carry as much firepower as they feel necessary so as to increase their chances? where is the legal limit set?

Exactly! I'd walk with a tank

[sMASH]

I would like the right to defend myself against attackers . I do not want to suffer and then hope I live to make a report.
I would like the assurance and piece of mind that miscreants would have reason to reconsider attempting attacking me. And when they do they would have their lives equally threatened

[Redman]

Who else is in?

That eh hard -I have a maxi load a men waiting to sign up

I wonder if Duanes wife and children were raped and abused in his own house while he watches on impotently if he would still have the same opinion!

This is crap.

Why? This is a reality! It has happened in trinidad many times!

Someone is breaking into your house in the middle of the night. What do you do?
What is the recommendation from the Police?
How can you defend yourself?
What are the options?
When you know the bandits coming in fully armed?

If you need to bring these kinda extreme scenarios into an argument to make a point you don't have one.

pal dat i reality, it happens right thru in trini, that aint extreme, is the norm.

come up for some air plz

Reality or not setting an extreme hypothetical scenario proves nothing.
In any argument.

As an aside, since it happening right through , post a link to a newspaper article on the last time there was a situation as you described.and the one before that.
In Trinidad.
Shouldn't be too hard since as you say it ain't extreme and it's the norm.
I eh holding my breath,pal

[Redman]

the problem there then is the enforcement of the rules of the race. The solution in such a race CANNOT be to let everyone break the rules[/quote]!!!

No I am saying adjust the rules to level the playing field.

I am all for that, but if done properly alot of people who think they deserve a firearm license will not get one unless that screen process is relaxed.

There is no screening process now.its at the sole DiSCRETION of the Commish
I'm suggesting more transparent,but stringent criteria.

probably because of the current process to get a licensed firearm?
relax the process and make it easier to get a licensed firearm and that will change.

Just indicate where I said make it easier. My point is that the 50 odd private citizens that I know carry guns are not primal to use your word and extremely serious about their conduct.

The challenge we have is in fact to maintain an oversite process that is effective,implemented and maintained.

if we apply that to a crime plan then the gun problem will not exist in the first place and citizens will not need to arm themselves.[/quote]
Maybe but it hasn't happened yet.what happens in the interim.

I'm suggesting a clear system that is fair,on going and requires on going re certification.
Like any profession.
A gun is a huge responsibility,and should be a priveledge not a right.
That said a suitably qualified person has the undeniable right to protect his family against those who intend to harm them.

[rocknrolla]

these guys not living in the real world nah. criminals will ALWAYS find a way to gain the upper hand for criminal activity. u really gonna catch corrupt politicians and other big boys bringing in guns at the port. theres just no way short of building a dome around the country.

imagine that here now.. law abiding citizens have to fight for the same rights as criminals.. lol

[kjaglal76]

Who else is in?

That eh hard -I have a maxi load a men waiting to sign up

I wonder if Duanes wife and children were raped and abused in his own house while he watches on impotently if he would still have the same opinion!

This is crap.

Why? This is a reality! It has happened in trinidad many times!

Someone is breaking into your house in the middle of the night. What do you do?
What is the recommendation from the Police?
How can you defend yourself?
What are the options?
When you know the bandits coming in fully armed?

If you need to bring these kinda extreme scenarios into an argument to make a point you don't have one.

pal dat i reality, it happens right thru in trini, that aint extreme, is the norm.

come up for some air plz

Reality or not setting an extreme hypothetical scenario proves nothing.
In any argument.

As an aside, since it happening right through , post a link to a newspaper article on the last time there was a situation as you described.and the one before that.
In Trinidad.
Shouldn't be too hard since as you say it ain't extreme and it's the norm.
I eh holding my breath,pal

nah dont hold it, say what u plz, who feels it knows it, again, its a norm, buh u wont see that, u bz nut-hugging

[rocknrolla]

Who else is in?

That eh hard -I have a maxi load a men waiting to sign up

I wonder if Duanes wife and children were raped and abused in his own house while he watches on impotently if he would still have the same opinion!

This is crap.

Why? This is a reality! It has happened in trinidad many times!

Someone is breaking into your house in the middle of the night. What do you do?
What is the recommendation from the Police?
How can you defend yourself?
What are the options?
When you know the bandits coming in fully armed?

If you need to bring these kinda extreme scenarios into an argument to make a point you don't have one.

pal dat i reality, it happens right thru in trini, that aint extreme, is the norm.

come up for some air plz

Reality or not setting an extreme hypothetical scenario proves nothing.
In any argument.

As an aside, since it happening right through , post a link to a newspaper article on the last time there was a situation as you described.and the one before that.
In Trinidad.
Shouldn't be too hard since as you say it ain't extreme and it's the norm.
I eh holding my breath,pal

there was one a couple months ago and quite a few during the soe.

[Firewall]

I am not basing my decision on a petty concept that "oh I'm not affected" that is not the case at all. I think I am absolutely affected and while I do feel more secure mentally with a firearm I do not think that is the answer to our core problem.

I've been held up at gun point and stuffed in my own trunk already (2001) and I still feel the same way about arming citizens.

the point I'm making is that we need to address the issue of bandits coming into people's houses in the first place rather than find a plaster for a sore that would soon fester and next thing we have the wild west where bandits come with a rocket launcher by your house - what then?

Can you please provide TWO verified examples of where providing access to firearms to citizens has resulted in this escalation of which you speak?

It is becoming a bit "rantish" if your main reason is "bandits with rocket launchers and/or tanks" when there is no posted evidence to support it.

Apparently the police/coast guard/customs have all gone on holiday in you scenario where all bandits get tanks et al.

What then? The only response to that would the equally inane "sharks with laser beams...."

[PariaMan]

Rapes for the Year

Rapes, Incest and Sexual Offences 2013 Jan 41
Rapes, Incest and Sexual Offences 2013 Feb 54
Rapes, Incest and Sexual Offences 2013 Mar 50
Rapes, Incest and Sexual Offences 2013 Apr 44
Rapes, Incest and Sexual Offences 2013 May 45
Rapes, Incest and Sexual Offences 2013 Jun 30
Rapes, Incest and Sexual Offences 2013 Jul 40
Rapes, Incest and Sexual Offences 2013 Aug 33

[PariaMan]

Mere hours after a Central mother and her 17-year-old daughter were raped and robbed at their family home, two suspects were held in connection with the incident. The men, both 23, were arrested at their homes on Construction Street, Enterprise, and Penco Street, Longdenville, Chaguanas, late Thursday evening. The sexual assault and robbery were alleged to have taken place at around 3 am on Thursday at upscale Penco Lands community when four armed men stormed the family’s home. The 49-year-old mother of three and her 17-year-old daughter were allegedly gang-raped while her two sons were restrained in another room.

[PariaMan]

Twin brothers from Chaguanas were held by police yesterday after a report that one of their neighbours was gang-raped in front of her seven-year-old sister. The brothers, 34, were held at their home around 8 am by officers of the Chaguanas CID, led by Inspector Wayne Lawrence. The siblings’ 24-year-old friend, who also lives in the area, was also held in connection with the incident.

Investigators said the trio was well known to them. They said the 24-year-old suspect was also being sought in relation to an incident in Chaguanas in which a group of police officers were shot at during an anti-crime exercise three weeks ago. According to reports at around 2.30 am on Saturday, three armed men entered the victim’s home.

[PariaMan]

I must admit I am astoundedat the number of rapes per month reported knowing full well that there are numerous unreported ones!

[kjaglal76]

nice posts there, hope Redman sees what i meant when i said its pretty normal

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

I am not basing my decision on a petty concept that "oh I'm not affected" that is not the case at all. I think I am absolutely affected and while I do feel more secure mentally with a firearm I do not think that is the answer to our core problem.

I've been held up at gun point and stuffed in my own trunk already (2001) and I still feel the same way about arming citizens.

the point I'm making is that we need to address the issue of bandits coming into people's houses in the first place rather than find a plaster for a sore that would soon fester and next thing we have the wild west where bandits come with a rocket launcher by your house - what then?

Can you please provide TWO verified examples of where providing access to firearms to citizens has resulted in this escalation of which you speak?

It is becoming a bit "rantish" if your main reason is "bandits with rocket launchers and/or tanks" when there is no posted evidence to support it.

Apparently the police/coast guard/customs have all gone on holiday in you scenario where all bandits get tanks et al.

What then? The only response to that would the equally inane "sharks with laser beams...."

you want examples in trinidad? Because examples in another society would be irrelevant. Japan has very low gun ownership while the US has the highest per capita.

You accuse me of rantish behaviour but you seem to get aggravated with each response. I stated my point of view earlier, I'm not sure why you think it is an issue that demands justification.

Higher powered weapons are making their way into the country despite police/coast guard/customs NOT being on holiday.
Sep 20, 2013 - http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/Man ... 02951.html

Sep 12, 2013 - http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/Cri ... 64481.html

MB: How do the guns come in?

CB: Is from Venezuela we does get we thing you know it easy we does pay the Coast Guard man it come in on a dingy it reach half way we keep it off the radar with the money we pay him for a little while cause is really the bigger boats they does pick up.

MB: What kind of guns are we talking about here?

CB: We have AR 15s AK nines we dealing with we don’t sell any gun that is to protect we self and we turf.

MB: How much guns we talking about here?

CB: Sometimes we go send for 5-6 hand guns two big guns to protect yourself because you seeing other places with bigger guns so the more firepower the better and the more ammunition you send for.

and this is for unlicensed firearms used for turf wars. When The Gov't allows citizens to bear arms and makes it easier this same mentality will continue with legal firearms where you want a bigger gun than the other person to protect yourself. The gangs going to start to bring in even heavier weapons than what is legal, soon after... rocket launchers

[88sins]

Not making sense Duane.
Rockets & propulsion devices are nowhere near as easy to conceal & carry as small arms and in addition they cost a lot more to acquire (whether you access them through the black market or go thru legal channels where available) and are nowhere near as cheap as handguns or bullets, never were, and never will be. Not to mention there is a very high probability of an untrained idiot attempting to use this kind of weaponry & ending their own life in the process.

Now people lets not go to war with each other for a simple difference of opinion. As Duane has pointed out there are still significant amounts of illegal weapons entering the country, while the CG, AG, TTR, & TTPS are all actively trying their best. The issue is that their best is at quite bluntly insufficient, and it's primarily because of the nature of the beast that is the criminal element of the nation. Rapists, murderers, thugs & thieves don't wear ID bands stating their chosen profession, and are very adept at evading police capture more often than not. They attack the innocent when the police or anyone they feel can give them opposition is absent or unaware. And they can't put a police officer on every corner of every highway main road side street & track 24/7 or in every house and building. They need the assistance of the public in keeping the peace in many ways, not just as informants (that get snitched on themselves, & I'm being kind to say we have a piss poor witsec program here if one could call it that), but as a deterrent to those that would flout the law & cause harm to others. An aggressor usually loses a great deal of their aggression & determination upon the realization that they may not survive their opponent. As well as an officer outnumbered by armed thugs will always appreciate any assistance he can get, be that it comes from his brothers in blue, or Samuel the accountant on his way home from work (only if the NEED arises in order to help save the life of a peace officer as this is an absolute worst case type scenario, hopefully never to occur here). This is a potential benefit to the small scale granting of arms.

At the end of the day all the public wants is the tools to ensure they have at the very least a fighting chance if faced with an immediate threat to life & safety. That is all. A fighting chance. The way it this issue exists now only allows citizens to fight to keep from dying till the ambulance arrives and struggle to keep their blood from running on the ground.
Don't you believe your family, friends, neighbors and colleagues deserve a fighting chance?

[kjaglal76]

duane many states in the US ppl are allowed to have guns, yet i.nvr heard abt bandits with RPGs & tanks

[pugboy]

should we remove burglar proofing and leave doors open before/whilst we wait for the police to reduce guns and bring crime down ?

It is not only about having a fighting chance, but the mere fact that for some bandits
they will deterred to know that they don't have it easy robbing people.
If at least one bandit could be deterred that is one less possible murder/robbery

As it stands any bandit with a gun knows he has a 99.9% of not being harmed

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

My mention of rocket launchers are only an extreme example. I very well understand how impractical and cumbersome such a weapon would be to walk around with.

Again and hopefully for the last time: big guns will beget bigger guns... as the gang leader stated they already do here in T&T

[Firewall]

I am not basing my decision on a petty concept that "oh I'm not affected" that is not the case at all. I think I am absolutely affected and while I do feel more secure mentally with a firearm I do not think that is the answer to our core problem.

I've been held up at gun point and stuffed in my own trunk already (2001) and I still feel the same way about arming citizens.

the point I'm making is that we need to address the issue of bandits coming into people's houses in the first place rather than find a plaster for a sore that would soon fester and next thing we have the wild west where bandits come with a rocket launcher by your house - what then?

Can you please provide TWO verified examples of where providing access to firearms to citizens has resulted in this escalation of which you speak?

It is becoming a bit "rantish" if your main reason is "bandits with rocket launchers and/or tanks" when there is no posted evidence to support it.

Apparently the police/coast guard/customs have all gone on holiday in you scenario where all bandits get tanks et al.

What then? The only response to that would the equally inane "sharks with laser beams...."

you want examples in trinidad? Because examples in another society would be irrelevant.

Really? I mean.....really? This answer honestly baffles me. Mainly because to consider any policy, one of the the first steps is to see where it has been done before and how successful/unsuccessful it has been considering factors including economic, political and social. So i guess to claim irrelevance of examples due to society is astounding

Japan has very low gun ownership
while the US has the highest per capita.
And guns go bang...........

Neither of the three statements above exemplify anything about the escalation "theory"
(Loosely called a theory because apparently this cannot be universally tested) .

You accuse me of rantish behaviour but you seem to get aggravated with each response.
I honestly didn't realize we were playing that game now.......
The appropriate response would be what?
To either now get aggravated with your accusation, thus proving your point? or start a back and forth accusing you something instead? Achieving what exactly?

I honestly do not think that the tone of my posts reflects aggravation seeing that I was actually enjoying the discussion, and as you are someone who usually posts sensible arguments I was expecting more of the same. However, to date all i've gotten is rocket launchers and escalation.


I stated my point of view earlier, I'm not sure why you think it is an issue that demands justification.

Again forgive me for thinking this was a discussion, where while not demanding it, justification may have been nice to understand how you arrived at your point of view.

Higher powered weapons are making their way into the country despite police/coast guard/customs NOT being on holiday.

I was actually referring to this same interview/article earlier when stating that criminals have assault rifles but citizens have no access. Clearly citizens without firearms access cannot remotely be linked as a causal factor for this.

Sep 20, 2013 - http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/Man ... 02951.html

Sep 12, 2013 - http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/Cri ... 64481.html

MB: How do the guns come in?

CB: Is from Venezuela we does get we thing you know it easy we does pay the Coast Guard man it come in on a dingy it reach half way we keep it off the radar with the money we pay him for a little while cause is really the bigger boats they does pick up.

MB: What kind of guns are we talking about here?

CB: We have AR 15s AK nines we dealing with we don’t sell any gun that is to protect we self and we turf.

MB: How much guns we talking about here?

CB: Sometimes we go send for 5-6 hand guns two big guns to protect yourself because you seeing other places with bigger guns so the more firepower the better and the more ammunition you send for.

and this is for unlicensed firearms used for turf wars. When The Gov't allows citizens to bear arms and makes it easier this same mentality will continue with legal firearms where you want a bigger gun than the other person to protect yourself.

So in your scenario, the gov't would allow citizens to own assault rifles or "bigger guns"? To what end?

Fact is a firearm pointed at someone does not beg the question......is this gun "big enough" to harm me? I honestly don't think that thought enters the minds of either civilians or criminals.

"Big" or "Small" all guns do the same job as an equalizer if both parties are armed.

Where is this "mentality" that you keep referring to derived from and again, where is the empirical evidence to support?

OR

Is it a "Trinidadian thing" that does not occur anywhere else in the world?

The gangs going to start to bring in even heavier weapons than what is legal,

Did you proof read your post for continuity? Because a couple lines up you posted a link where they are actually doing what you claim may happen.

soon after... rocket launchers
................

[Firewall]

My mention of rocket launchers are only an extreme example. I very well understand how impractical and cumbersome such a weapon would be to walk around with.

Again and hopefully for the last time: big guns will beget bigger guns... as the gang leader stated they already do here in T&T

Sorry eh, i was typing that monstrosity above and going wild with the color and quoting...............and didn't see your post.

Bigger guns will beget bigger guns.........but will a smaller gun kill the bandit attacking your loved ones any less "dead"?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ after reading all your posts above I have only one thing to say:
You do not have to agree with a statement or point of view for it to be sensible.

Regarding continuity: reread what I wrote.

[sMASH]

All we need is a fighting chance .
The lack of guns in the population will not automatically mean the bandits would only keep smaller arms. There are other reasons for having high powered weapons.
They would not have them , use them against their rival gangs, then put them away and use the smaller pew pews because the populace is not armed .

Bigger guns for the criminals will inevitably occur.
Whether they come with a hand gun , glok, or ak , if we are allowed hand guns and shot guns for protection of self , family, and property , then we have a chance

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ Criminals will always find ways to increase their chances over their victims, that is what makes crime happen! If criminals know that citizens all have guns then they will just get bigger guns or start using grenades, gas canisters etc.

this is satirical but it makes a point


Gun control has been very successful in Australia. As of 2007 only about 5.2% of Australians own and use firearms and they only use it for purposes such as hunting, controlling feral animals, collecting, and target shooting, not for self defense.

"Researchers Andrew Leigh and Christine Neill found that the gun buybacks were responsible for an 80 percent drop in firearm suicides and a sharp drop in gun homicides as well, although the latter could not be as precisely tied to the new laws. Today's firearm death rate is less than half of what it was in 1996. The sharpest declines in firearm deaths occurred in the states with the greatest number of gun buybacks. The number of stolen weapons, too, declined sharply following the reforms."

Brazil holds the world record for civilian gun deaths, reaching close to 40,000 in the early 2000s.

Robert Muggah, research director at Igarapé Institute in Rio de Janeiro, says that Brazil's major cities were virtually uninhabitable or in full crisis mode by the late 1990s. In 2003, a comprehensive new law banned gun carrying by civilians...

Researchers Daniel Cerqueira and Joao De Mello of Rio's Catholic University found that firearm availability dropped following the law's introduction and estimated that it may have reduced total homicides in Brazil by 7.4 percent. Gun deaths had declined by about 5,000 by 2010.

Gun sales have also declined dramatically in recent years due to the tough screening of potential buyers. Brazil has attempted to tackle the gun culture by launching a series of national campaigns in which soccer and soap opera stars urge people to voluntarily give up their guns. There is still a long way to go but Brazil is taking constructive steps that are producing results.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-0 ... gun-owners

[Firewall]

A buyback scheme was established to compensate gun owners for banned weapons.
"Researchers Andrew Leigh and Christine Neill found that the gun buybacks were responsible for an 80 percent drop in firearm suicides and a sharp drop in gun homicides as well, although the latter could not be as precisely tied to the new laws. Today's firearm death rate is less than half of what it was in 1996. The sharpest declines in firearm deaths occurred in the states with the greatest number of gun buybacks. The number of stolen weapons, too, declined sharply following the reforms."

Reforms included the banning of automatic and semi-automatic long arms, a uniform licensing and registration system in all eight states and territories, gun safety training for all first-time license applicants; a uniform standard for the storage of firearms; and the need for all gun sales to proceed through licensed dealers.

The above paragraph should IMO be the foundation of successful firearm legislation, not a reform. However, there is no need for a citizen to own Auto/Semi-Automatic long Arms

Brazil holds the world record for civilian gun deaths, reaching close to 40,000 in the early 2000s.

Robert Muggah, research director at Igarapé Institute in Rio de Janeiro, says that Brazil's major cities were virtually uninhabitable or in full crisis mode by the late 1990s. In 2003, a comprehensive new law banned gun carrying by civilians...banned guns over .38 caliber, increased the minimum age of gun purchases to 25 years, added 15 requirements to gun applications (e.g., passing a psychological exam, knowledge of gun safety, and payment of a $1,000 fee), established a national gun registry, and created new penalties for gun offenses.

Again should be at the foundation of successful legislation

Researchers Daniel Cerqueira and Joao De Mello of Rio's Catholic University found that firearm availability dropped following the law's introduction and estimated that it may have reduced total homicides in Brazil by 7.4 percent. Gun deaths had declined by about 5,000 by 2010.

Gun sales have also declined dramatically in recent years due to the tough screening of potential buyers. Brazil has attempted to tackle the gun culture by launching a series of national campaigns in which soccer and soap opera stars urge people to voluntarily give up their guns. There is still a long way to go but Brazil is taking constructive steps that are producing results.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-0 ... gun-owners

The parts you left out of the quote would paint this in a different light.

So, let's say that we were thinking of introducing the privilege to bear arms:
Firstly, we can see from the examples posted above that there are proven guidelines which can be used as the basis for our legislation. After all, they have been successful in Brazil and Australia so far from the research....

Additionally, legal guns aren't cheap.
Price would also play a role in determining ownership. For instance, locally a shotgun isn't cheap.
If handguns were available, after a rigorous screening process (such as in Brazil) but was priced to ensure it was viewed as a "luxury good" (or a privilege) and not a necessity, how many would consider the purchase?

For instance to use an analogy that is not directly related but close enough.......
I would like to have a car, but there is no pressing need for me to have one as my daily commute is a 10 minute walk.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ don't confuse "existing legislation" with "right to bear arms". It is perhaps just as difficult if not more difficult now for a civilians to get a gun in Australia or Brazil than it is to get here in T&T currently.

Also are you suggesting price discrimination would play a part? Because having money should never be a criteria for owning a gun. A person can be wealthy and still be arrogant and irrational with a short temper. Also with criminals admitting that they spend $30K on a gun smuggled in from Cedros, it seems they are willing to spend as well. The criminals already consider the purchase, so I do not see that as being a valid point of control.

What is YOUR "pressing need" to have a gun?

[MonsterPower]

point to add is that if a criminal is found to have prints on a gun or to borrow a csi term gun shot residue (if there is some sort of testing locally) then automatically jail without bail until the gun could be processed or tied to a crime ,which the trial and sentence will be death or life

[sMASH]

Our society may be more in line with the Brazil model.
A gun ban for legal guns saw a drop in gun related deaths by around 7.4 %. So that wood mean legal firearms accounted for 7.4% of all gun related deaths. The other 92.6% was due to illegal guns. How much of that 7.4% was for self defense?

What we need stats on are on crime rate since then; robberies, murders, rapes, kidnappings, hijackings etc

[sMASH]

We don't want to reduce deaths from guns. We wan to increase the ability of the average civilian to deter and defend them selves if they are IN a crime situation