.::The Official General Election 2015 Thread::.

[UML]

All this set ah beat up from PNM tuners and bill still pass, well its off to the senate now.

I guess those who highfiving eachother over the passing of the bill missing the point. The fact that such a fundamental bill of our democracy passed without widespread popular support is condemning the gov't. Even more so that there were 2-3 dissenting voices on the gov't side is also showing a wide rift in the gov't. This doesn't bode we'll for them in 2015.

Plus although all the gov't needs is one independent vote in the senate, these are the same senators who voted against the solider/police bill. The writing is on the wall for the PP.

SO SHE WAS ABSENT but quick to jump up and cause bachannal to say it wasnt part of the discussion. I am not surprised!

It still wasn't part of the public consultation.

but didnt she say she never hear bout it and it was never discussed?

how could it be part of the consultations when the CRC recommended that something be done whe they SUBMITTED their report?!!!

[Slartibartfast]

It don't matter if the bill was to give every citizen $100. It should not be able to pass without proper public consultation. We don't want to set a precedent of it being OK for the government to amend the constitution without proper public consultation. That by itself is enough to stop it so that it can go back out to the public IMO.

[Slartibartfast]

Tell me when to stop eh. Cause I know u like ur ass teared up lol

Says the guy with every UNC d!ck to ever exist balls deep in him.

you come to "handle yuh property!!"

Nah padnah you look like you gettin more handle dan a chester drawers. Plus if you was my property I was putting yuh in a plastic garbage bag to give away

[eliteauto]

the PNM Chief Whip needs to be replaced, the presentations of Alicia Hospedales, Nileung Hypolite and Fitzgerald Jeffery were horrible, they seemed very unprepared, the standard of debate needs to be improved

[zoom rader]

All this set ah beat up from PNM tuners and bill still pass, well its off to the senate now.

I guess those who highfiving eachother over the passing of the bill missing the point. The fact that such a fundamental bill of our democracy passed without widespread popular support is condemning the gov't. Even more so that there were 2-3 dissenting voices on the gov't side is also showing a wide rift in the gov't. This doesn't bode we'll for them in 2015.

Plus although all the gov't needs is one independent vote in the senate, these are the same senators who voted against the solider/police bill. The writing is on the wall for the PP.

SO SHE WAS ABSENT but quick to jump up and cause bachannal to say it wasnt part of the discussion. I am not surprised!

It still wasn't part of the public consultation.

In every goverment there will always be a few that dont share the same view and that is healty and which goes to shows that democracy is alive. The PM did remove the whip and told the parliment to vote as they see fit. Free thinkers is what is needed and not what one of the PNM election songs says "Follow the leader".
If the independent senators votes against it then that is in their right and that is what they are there for as a neutral balance.

[UML]

It don't matter if the bill was to give every citizen $100. It should not be able to pass without proper public consultation. We don't want to set a precedent of it being OK for the government to amend the constitution without proper public consultation. That by itself is enough to stop it so that it can go back out to the public IMO.

were you part of the consultation for the Constitution?

was there public consultation for the Constitution?

[Slartibartfast]

It don't matter if the bill was to give every citizen $100. It should not be able to pass without proper public consultation. We don't want to set a precedent of it being OK for the government to amend the constitution without proper public consultation. That by itself is enough to stop it so that it can go back out to the public IMO.

were you part of the consultation for the Constitution?

was there public consultation for the Constitution?

You realise this will make it OK for PNM to amend the constitution in the future without giving you, UML, a chance to oppose it in the future as well right? Are you saying that you are OK with PNM amending the constitution without proper public consultation?

[UML]

e
PNM afraid of majority rule
PNM afraid of majority rule
Published:
Tuesday, August 12, 2014
Kalifa Clyne


Housing Minister Dr Roodal Moonilal says Opposition Leader Dr Keith Rowley has underestimated the political maturity of the country and that the People’s National Movement (PNM) is afraid of majority rule.

He made the comment during his contribution to the debate yesterday on the Constitution (Amendment) Bill 2014 in Parliament.

Insisting that the bill would be passed, Moonilal said the Government did not intend to fool anyone.

“This is no sham. We did not come here to fool anybody. We came to implement a promise of reform,” he added.

He insisted that the Government would pass the bill and said the current dissenting voices to the bill were coming from people who were afraid of change.

“What do you think will happen, the sky will fall?” he questioned.

Moonilal likened the debate to a runoff between two sides, those who support majority rule and those who support minority rule.

“To support the rule of a minority is wrong,” Moonilal said.

He said the PNM was against the measure because it did not believe it could win with majority rule.

“There are MPs who are here because the majority of people that went to the polls decided I don’t want you but they find themselves in Parliament, so that the will of the people who came out to vote, that will is defeated.

“There are Members of Parliament who are in the House who defeat the will of the majority and they sit in the House for five years,” he added.

He said the bill would mean the end of minority rule.

“A fundamental aspect of democracy is to respect the will of the majority,” he added.

Moonilal said he was shocked that members of the Social Movement Network had started a campaign to stop the debate.

He said the Opposition had fallen into the belief that somehow majority rule was a green-eyed monster, noting this was because it had benefitted from minority rule.

Moonilal argued that contrary to some views, third parties would actually benefit from the proposed legislation, adding that third party politics had been dead for 40 years.

“It is today that the third parties can breathe life because in the first election everybody can go. At the second poll, you will have two and give people a second choice to vote.”

He called on the Opposition members to bring amendments that Government could consider instead of being “merchants of fear and doom and gloom.”

He quipped that Rowley was afraid he might be recalled as an MP as Government had done a lot of work in his Diego Martin West constituency.
http://www.guardian.co.tt/news/2014-08- ... ority-rule

#plaintalkbadmanners

[UML]

It don't matter if the bill was to give every citizen $100. It should not be able to pass without proper public consultation. We don't want to set a precedent of it being OK for the government to amend the constitution without proper public consultation. That by itself is enough to stop it so that it can go back out to the public IMO.

were you part of the consultation for the Constitution?

was there public consultation for the Constitution?

You realise this will make it OK for PNM to amend the constitution in the future without giving you, UML, a chance to oppose it in the future as well right? Are you saying that you are OK with PNM amending the constitution without proper public consultation?

We had no say before. They continuously demand constitutional change but oppose it. They had the opportunity when they were in government for numerous years and did nothing!

[Slartibartfast]

We had no say before. They continuously demand constitutional change but oppose it. They had the opportunity when they were in government for numerous years and did nothing!

And you are perfectly OK with that? Like I asked before, Are you saying that you, UML, are OK with PNM amending the constitution without proper public consultation?

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

UML will never answer you Slartibartfast. Expect a totally unrelated propoganda response.

[RASC]

The PNM is fighting for the ILP's survival knowing fully well that third parties will split the vote thereby enabling the PNM to win. Excluding the run off the rest of the proposals are good will benefit the electorate.

Why is it that PP supporters positioning this as PNM vs PP?

The members from COP and TOP gave their representatives strict instructions not to vote for the bill too.

Duh they're PNM also!

[UML]

As i said I/we never had a say before so it makes no difference to me.

in other words Yes I have no problem.

[Slartibartfast]

... Like I asked before, Are you saying that you, UML, are OK with PNM amending the constitution without proper public consultation?

UML will never answer you Slartibartfast. Expect a totally unrelated propoganda response.

... it makes no difference to me.

in other words Yes I have no problem.

Is this... history in the making. The day that UML finally admitted he don't care who bending him over, as long as he getting fcuked. Well UML, you on your own there.

... this real sad hoss

[Crackpot]

The precedent has been set for I say so legislation in the future.

Plenty ppl vote for me so that means I have a mandate to do what I want.

i hope ppl understand that the so called " Majority" of ppl in this society are usually unable to understand short/medium/long term effects of all this but carry on

[j.o.e]

I have faith the Senate will slap that bill away....so wha allyuh wha in d Budget? Is next month the bag of goodies comin

[Crackpot]

... Like I asked before, Are you saying that you, UML, are OK with PNM amending the constitution without proper public consultation?

UML will never answer you Slartibartfast. Expect a totally unrelated propoganda response.

... it makes no difference to me.

in other words Yes I have no problem.

Is this... history in the making. The day that UML finally admitted he don't care who bending him over, as long as he getting fcuked. Well UML, you on your own there.

... this real sad hoss

UML just like that old-lady unc supporter who tv6 interview yesterday.

when asked why is she there and if she knew what was going on she looked at the camera like

Then she said, " I here to support de Prime Minister"

Blind loyalty at its finest

[Arcmanov]

Bill pass?



...buh like is no big ting in 'sweet T and T' ...all Tribe costume sell out arready. Study DAT.

[toyota2nr]

^^lol... The gov't is being very general about the cause and effect of this whilst the opposition including Jack warner have been specific about the process/consequences/possibilities etc

Could please explain these consequences to me. I am a bit unclear.

What are the consequences of term limits, fixed election dates, recall.....

[toyota2nr]

Timeline of runoff provision
Published:
Monday, August 11, 2014


March 2, 2013- Cabinet appoints a National Commission on Constitutional Reform to engage in public consultation on constitutional reform. 12 June 2013 - Legal Affairs Minister Prakash Ramadhar says $4 million is spent on consultations.

27 December 2013 - The Report of the Constitution Reform Commission (CRC) is submitted to the Prime Minister.
30 April - A meeting is held and the CRC agrees to some proposals selected from the report, to be taken to Parliament. The runoff is not discussed.
9 July - Another meeting is held to discuss recommendations. Commissioner Merle Hodge says she was absent from this meeting in which the runoff ballot is discussed.
4 August - Prime Minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar reveals that second ballot runoff voting, right of recall, fixed election dates and two term limits for Prime Ministers will be part of the new constitutional reform.
6 August - Opposition leader Dr Keith Rowley describes the proposed legislation as “dangerous” saying it had the potential for a defeated party to hold on to power while secondary elections are held.
7 August - Constitutional Reform Commission Member, Dr Merle Hodge says the contentious runoff proposal was not in the People’s Partnership manifesto, the main consultations around the country or in the commission’s final report. She calls for the parliamentary debate to be postponed.
8 August - Attorney General Anand Ramlogan says commissioners were “handsomely paid” and attacks Hodge saying she was upset by the defeat of the Winston Dookeran faction by the Ramadhar faction in the Congress of the People’s (COP) internal election.
8 August - Former attorney general Ramesh Lawrence Maharaj says the bill will trigger political instability in T&T if it becomes law. He vows to mount a legal fight to stop the bill.
9 August - Former Senator Subhas Panday also predicts dire consequences for T&T if the bill is passed, saying it is an attack on democracy.
9 August - Non-governmental organisation Fixin T&T mounts a protest outside the Prime Minister’s Philippine residence. They are chased off by government supporters led by chairman of the Penal/Debe Regional Corporation Premchand Sookoo.
10 August - Movement for Social Justice also calls for the postponement of the debate and issues a call for COP and TOP parliamentarians to withdraw their support.
10 August - Congress of the People calls for a delay in the vote of the legislation to allow for wider analysis.
http://www.guardian.co.tt/news/2014-08- ... -provision

SO SHE WAS ABSENT but quick to jump up and cause bachannal to say it wasnt part of the discussion. I am not surprised!

What I find strange was that she missed the meeting but didn't bother to find out after what was discussed.

She's trying to tell the nation that she signed off on it and didn't know about the addendum.....dereliction of duty perhaps.

[toyota2nr]

the PNM Chief Whip needs to be replaced, the presentations of Alicia Hospedales, Nileung Hypolite and Fitzgerald Jeffery were horrible, they seemed very unprepared, the standard of debate needs to be improved

It's PNM. Were you expecting anything different?

[toyota2nr]

... Like I asked before, Are you saying that you, UML, are OK with PNM amending the constitution without proper public consultation?

UML will never answer you Slartibartfast. Expect a totally unrelated propoganda response.

... it makes no difference to me.

in other words Yes I have no problem.

Is this... history in the making. The day that UML finally admitted he don't care who bending him over, as long as he getting fcuked. Well UML, you on your own there.

... this real sad hoss

UML just like that old-lady unc supporter who tv6 interview yesterday.

when asked why is she there and if she knew what was going on she looked at the camera like

Then she said, " I here to support de Prime Minister"

Blind loyalty at its finest

So PNM have no blind supporters right? Every single one is intellectually superior university graduates?

[Slartibartfast]

^^lol... The gov't is being very general about the cause and effect of this whilst the opposition including Jack warner have been specific about the process/consequences/possibilities etc

Could please explain these consequences to me. I am a bit unclear.

What are the consequences of term limits, fixed election dates, recall.....

I didn't watch the debate but from my understanding, the run off election for a constituency MP has the potential to be very problematic. Basically, if the winning electorate does not get more than 50% of the votes, there will be another election held 15 days later. That means, all the tra la la of elections have to happen again.

Now if you talking about general elections where it is one election then that is different. But we talking about multiple minor elections here. There is just too much potential for chaos. And while the re-election is waiting to be held, the existing party will stay in power, meaning that if the people can't make up their mind they getting stuck with what they currently have.

I may be wrong. Can someone who knows more about this please comment to clarify?

[toyota2nr]

And I agree that some tweaking needs to be done with the run off section to prevent problems as mentioned previously but I would love someone to explain why the PNM is opposing the rest. Opposing for opposing sake?

[kaylex]

There are many implications re this bill..
One that really stands otu is the cost of elections and byelections ( run off)

To host an election is so costly far more to utilise run off's will be ridiculous.. we could use the monies to do something better..

[Crackpot]

^^lol... The gov't is being very general about the cause and effect of this whilst the opposition including Jack warner have been specific about the process/consequences/possibilities etc

Could please explain these consequences to me. I am a bit unclear.

What are the consequences of term limits, fixed election dates, recall.....

Good sir, in response to you here are the following:

(1) Firstly nobody ever said there were consequences to the above. It is juvenile to pick put the good parts that exist in order to make your argument seem strong.
The current amendments being proposed stops you from a third term as PM, however you can come back after the 15th year. There is nothing saying no one cannot ever serve again. This is open to manipulation for e.g Putin and how he had a puppet installed, called all the shots anyways and then came back. Who is to say term limits in our current system is bad? Suppose someone can do their best work in their third term? Orville London is in his fourth elected term, would you have denied him of this? Whatever your feelings on this are subjective anyway as we all have our own opinions.

(2) No one ever said fixed election dates was bad here and to even throw that out is distracting at best and is a waste of our time

(3) You cannot just say recall etc without being specific. The act itself is not bad, it is the process that is impractical and open to many difficulties. The various problems with a recall as the gov't proposes will leave you with a right you cannot exercise. The elements of which have been repeated ad-nauseum.

Therefore do not be selective and pick out certain things that clearly no one is against to make ppl who are against these amendments seem unreasonable. That is simple-minded and base and you can do better if you tried

[toyota2nr]

It is not picking and choosing I am referring to the most talked about parts of the bill. Using the example of Orville London in his third term is a very bad example for obvious reasons as Tobago is a runaway horse right now. By his second term Patrick Manning had caused the near collapse of our society, would you have wanted him to have a third term? Term limits are there for a reason...

I had mentioned everything that the PNM had opposed without good reason. As I said there needs to be some tweaking but to throw out everything simply because doesn't like it is extremely myopic.

[Crackpot]

It is not picking and choosing I am referring to the most talked about parts of the bill. Using the example of Orville London in his third term is a very bad example for obvious reasons as Tobago is a runaway horse right now. By his second term Patrick Manning had caused the near collapse of our society, would you have wanted him to have a third term? Term limits are there for a reason...

I had mentioned everything that the PNM had opposed without good reason. As I said there needs to be some tweaking but to throw out everything simply because doesn't like it is extremely myopic.

Those are not the most talked about parts of the bill my friend

There are many talked abt parts of the bill that show and prove that it is nonsense but this bill does not need tweaking it needs rubbishing.

Would you click in the drop down box, go to Car classifieds and buy somebody project car that not even wired or running or need engine/transmission work a/c etc??? After you get into it you cannot get out easily.

Don't insult us and tell us that by spitting on us eventually we will get clean.

Relax with you anti-pnm agenda and understand what this will do to T&T in the long run

[UML]

^^lol... The gov't is being very general about the cause and effect of this whilst the opposition including Jack warner have been specific about the process/consequences/possibilities etc

Could please explain these consequences to me. I am a bit unclear.

What are the consequences of term limits, fixed election dates, recall.....

I didn't watch the debate but from my understanding, the run off election for a constituency MP has the potential to be very problematic. Basically, if the winning electorate does not get more than 50% of the votes, there will be another election held 15 days later. That means, all the tra la la of elections have to happen again.

Now if you talking about general elections where it is one election then that is different. But we talking about multiple minor elections here. There is just too much potential for chaos. And while the re-election is waiting to be held, the existing party will stay in power, meaning that if the people can't make up their mind they getting stuck with what they currently have.

I may be wrong. Can someone who knows more about this please comment to clarify?

all dat to say you cant answer his question?

There are many implications re this bill..
One that really stands otu is the cost of elections and byelections ( run off)

To host an election is so costly far more to utilise run off's will be ridiculous.. we could use the monies to do something better..

since when the PNM concerned about saving money?...dey put we in expense....GTL plant, OPV ripoff deal, Lara Stadium, Renting Guardian Holdings private jet with the aim of buying a private jet, MS Su, Tall Buildings, Train Study, Udecott, Steelpan deal, Church for the Obeah woman with a hotel included, Housing Pena at UTT's expense, UTT Corruption..too many to list?!!

[Slartibartfast]

Crackpot, care to elaborate. I didn't get chance to watch the debate so I honestly just looking to hear the arguments that were presented.

UML, shhhhhh, big people talkin