This anti-gang bill that is being debated in the house

[RASC]

VERY-Where your only possible fighting chance is going through the hassle of the legal system. And why would any businessman/woman want to go through the trouble of "lawyering up", jail time, court fees and awaiting trail?


Under This segment of the Bill:

(3) A police officer may enter and search any place
or premises not used as a dwelling house without a
warrant if he has reasonable cause to believe that a
gang member may be found in such place or premises.


Scenario with Multiple Outcomes:

1Police Vehicle
2Police Officers
You a Businessman/woman with a warehouse(property of none dwelling)

They monitor who owns which warehouse. They see you, the owner of the warehouse making his routine stop by and check up on inventory. The officers pull up.

"Sir do you own this warehouse? We come to do a search"
"Wait, hold up do you have a warrant?"
"NO, but under the Anit-Gang Bill we have reasonable suspicion to believe you and your warehouse are harboring gang members, and their paraphernalia. We are allowed to search property that is not used as a dwelling without a warrant legally."
"Nah that doh sound right, furthermore I am a legitimate businessman and would have no dealings with those kind of people."
"Well then you wounldn't mind us looking around, besides it'll only take a few minutes to find them-I sure they still hiding in here...wait outside please while we conduct the investigation...we were chasing a few of them guntas last night, and 3 of them jumped into this property and successfully evaded our presence. They had to know where they were going"
"But from last night to this morning, why the hell would they still be here..that doh make no sense"
"Sir just stand over there please...here is a copy of the bill if you don't believe us"
"...... "

All they have to do, is plant a brick of cocaine or ammunition for a gun, or compressed marijuana on the inside, hell even a gun...and your arse going down!

"Sir hear what, we find drugs and ammunition here, and guess what you is a big boy...and you importing and exporting everyday-who is your supplier"
"What the hell...I dunno where that mess came from"
"Doh play chupid with us...hear what we can do this two ways, either all 3 of us figure out a way to sweep this under the rug now, or we going to central booking"
"Buh wha de..."
"Look I don't wanna put you through all that stress of locking you up, getting lawyer, and of course this making the press...you eh want all that headache...let we organise some form of payment and we go forget this ever happen"

S I M P L E

Everything is left up to the police officers out there. The same police officers that stripping allyuh tint, taking bribe on the streets and rat always eating the cocaine and drugs in the precinct. Thas who allyuh trusting to carry out raids at THEIR own discretion WITHOUT a warrant? Without a balance in your favor?

Allyuh must be mad. This Bill has my support, but in its current form it is ULTIMATE nonsense! Because you'll be charged under three infractions:

Harboring and Concealing-The officer just said they knew to come into YOUR property and were able to flee from the cops.

Possession of firearms and ammunition-for use by gang members.

Possession of illicit drugs for the financial gain and promotion of the gang.

All listed below:

7. A person who has in his possession or under his care
or control a bullet-proof vest, firearm or ammunition,
whether lawfully obtained or not, which he intends or
ought to know will be used for the benefit of or at the
direction of a gang, or any gang member, commits an
offence and is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine
of four hundred thousand dollars and to imprisonment
for fifteen years.

8. A person who harbours or conceals a person whom
he knows is a gang member and whom he knows is
wanted by any member of the law enforcement authorities
commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to
a fine of one hundred and fifty thousand dollars and to
imprisonment for five years.

I just thought this up off the top off my head. Now imagine too crooks with the POWER and legality to do something like this. Easy pickings for them. No WARRANT and a LEGALLY binding search, arrest and prosecution? It's your word against TWO cops. You're an importer/exporter and you have a warehouse with guns, ammunition and drugs...which businessman would wanna go through that to PROVE their innocence in court?

[Humes]

I was with yuh until you implied that a businessman could be touched by the law.

[RASC]

I was with yuh until you implied that a businessman could be touched by the law.

It does not have to be a businessman. It could be anyone who owns a property of none dwelling. I used it as an example.
Furthermore not every business man in T&T are rolling in dough. What about the smaller proprietors? They would be even easier targets because the officers know they would not have the resources, time, nor patience to battle it out in court.

[Humes]

I want you to imagine a lolcat picture with a cat sticking out its middle claw and snarling at you.

The caption reads: SHUT THE FCK UP. REALLY. SHUT...THE FCK...UP.

Imagine a picture like that.

Just imagine.

[sMASH]

this bill so full of 'kinks' i could use it instead of galvanize.
there needs to be a lot of regulations to protect the citizens from corrupt officers.
before they pass something so extreme, they need to GUARANTEE that the persons enforcing them will not abuse the liberties afforded by it.

that being said, it to vague and abusive to even reach to parliament, this needed much more deliberation.

they have good intentions, but poor method and reasoning.

if it was twice as dotish, and intended to allow money to pass though some minister's hands, i might have taken it to be a pnm bill.

[RASC]

I can't believe the PP tried to push this on the People of Trinbago.

It doesn't properly define a Gang.
It doesn't identify properly what a Gang Leader may be.
It doesn't present a balance to the accused in anyway.
So many loop holes and kinks, can easily be exploited.
It has MAJOR breeches in the sovereignty of land ownership.

This Bill would be the perfect tool for a corrupt official to exploit. LEGALLY.

[RASC]

this bill so full of 'kinks' i could use it instead of galvanize.
there needs to be a lot of regulations to protect the citizens from corrupt officers.
before they pass something so extreme, they need to GUARANTEE that the persons enforcing them will not abuse the liberties afforded by it.

that being said, it to vague and abusive to even reach to parliament, this needed much more deliberation.

they have good intentions, but poor method and reasoning.

Oh is now you see what we've been talking about. Welcome to the light

Take this as an example: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=345835&p=4955643#p4955643

Everyone wants more extreme measures to snuff out these criminal elements, but this is going over and beyond insane.

[RASC]

I want you to imagine a lolcat picture with a cat sticking out its middle claw and snarling at you.

The caption reads: SHUT THE FCK UP. REALLY. SHUT...THE FCK...UP.

Imagine a picture like that.

Just imagine.

Did you read the Anti-Gang Bill 2010?
Are you in agreement with it?

[zcarz]

ent they have another thread like this?

[Yofoot]

Why is this a new thread when the Exact topic is being discussed in another top level thread?

[RASC]

ent they have another thread like this?

No. I am presenting a scenario where and how the bill can be exploited.
That thread is just highlighting that the Bill exists. Totally different IMHO.

[sMASH]

the next thread covers what u trying to do in this, but title now defunct so that could be locked and this one succeed it.

btw,

[RASC]

the next thread covers what u trying to do in this, but title now defunct so that could be locked and this one succeed it.

btw,

Did you read the Bill?

[RASC]

If anything they should be merged and not locked/deleted. I presented a very sound argument, which should not go unheard.

[sMASH]

yes, more or less. i actually have only now heard about it. i am not against the PP, just this bill, that allows for so much abuse of the normel citizen that it seems like manning in control of the gov't again.

[RASC]

yes, more or less. i actually have only now heard about it. i am not against the PP, just this bill, that allows for so much abuse of the normel citizen that it seems like manning in control of the gov't again.

I suggest you get a copy of the bill and open your eyes to the amount of foolishness contained within it. Your gov't wrote it so it should not be hard for you to get a copy

[RASC]

Wait...all these ppl directing insults towards me have not even read the Bill.
Why don't you guys concentrate your efforts in educating yourselves on the foolishness the PP is putting towards the people of T&T as LAW.

Stop attacking me, and start attacking the Bill.

[janfar]

You have a link yo???

[zcarz]

this reminds me of the talking on phone and driving bill, but is has good intention, needs to be refined though

[S_2NR]

this reminds me of the talking on phone and driving bill, but is has good intention, needs to be refined though

i agree, also...it have so many corrupt police officers in trinidad..they need to get rid of them first, or else it wouldn matter what laws or bills u pass..d crime will continue..

[sMASH]

most problems is because the citizens want to do bad, say what, dey could want to do what dey want. the problem happens when the enforcers not doing their job. the police not policing properly, the police not effective. the people in charge of the police responsible for making the police effective. the people who had majority control and majority power and majority responsibility to maintain and improve the police is the pnm.

pnm fail.

[sMASH]

^^ i read what u posted, that is enough to put the brakes on that bill, and not go further.

nah seriously, dat bill not good enough to even reach parliament to debate, yet.

[sMASH]

1skuurks

[zoom rader]

Wait...all these ppl directing insults towards me have not even read the Bill.
Why don't you guys concentrate your efforts in educating yourselves on the foolishness the PP is putting towards the people of T&T as LAW.

Stop attacking me, and start attacking the Bill.

Where you to complain when the Housing tax gave the power to break down your door steal your suff and sell for not paying the PNM housing tax

[zoom rader]

yes, more or less. i actually have only now heard about it. i am not against the PP, just this bill, that allows for so much abuse of the normel citizen that it seems like manning in control of the gov't again.

I suggest you get a copy of the bill and open your eyes to the amount of foolishness contained within it. Your gov't wrote it so it should not be hard for you to get a copy

The bill is a very good and must be put into law.We need to get hold of the PNM crime problem that they created.
99% of the gang crime is people that voted for the PNM.

[sMASH]

^^^^^ oooooooohh oohhhh

he was in 'merica, so he coulda care less.

if he was here, he would glad to know that he had to pay 10000 tax cause he have 2 toilet in a split level, and dat is cause the valuator feeeel it could worth dat much

[zcarz]

so what about gang-banging? is this now illegal?

[RASC]

yes, more or less. i actually have only now heard about it. i am not against the PP, just this bill, that allows for so much abuse of the normel citizen that it seems like manning in control of the gov't again.

I suggest you get a copy of the bill and open your eyes to the amount of foolishness contained within it. Your gov't wrote it so it should not be hard for you to get a copy

The bill is a very good

You standing alone on that one buddy, not seeing anyone in agreement so far.

[zoom rader]

yes, more or less. i actually have only now heard about it. i am not against the PP, just this bill, that allows for so much abuse of the normel citizen that it seems like manning in control of the gov't again.

I suggest you get a copy of the bill and open your eyes to the amount of foolishness contained within it. Your gov't wrote it so it should not be hard for you to get a copy

The bill is a very good

You standing alone on that one buddy, not seeing anyone in agreement so far.

The bill hits the nail on head to deal with gangs. peolpe were crying out for a crime plan and the law to start fighting crime.I told u all before when u bring out laws like these the only people that will find it harsh is those who are involved in crime and support the PNM.
U are going to get People that are going argue that the rights of people are being abused.If u want tobe tough on crime then u need tough laws. Guntas and Businessmen are to blame for crime. You may think that a "good citizen" Businessmen are saints, but how many cheat the tax systerm and pay bribes to customs for selling curtains.How many cheat the vat systerm.Do guntas have the means to import guns or the businessmen?

[RASC]

yes, more or less. i actually have only now heard about it. i am not against the PP, just this bill, that allows for so much abuse of the normel citizen that it seems like manning in control of the gov't again.

I suggest you get a copy of the bill and open your eyes to the amount of foolishness contained within it. Your gov't wrote it so it should not be hard for you to get a copy

The bill is a very good

You standing alone on that one buddy, not seeing anyone in agreement so far.

The bill hits the nail on head to deal with gangs. peolpe were crying out for a crime plan and the law to start fighting crime.I told u all before when u bring out laws like these the only people that will find it harsh is those who are involved in crime and support the PNM.
U are going to get People that are going argue that the rights of people are being abused.If u want tobe tough on crime then u need tough laws. Guntas and Businessmen are to blame for crime. You may think that a "good citizen" Businessmen are saints, but how many cheat the tax systerm and pay bribes to customs for selling curtains.How many cheat the vat systerm.Do guntas have the means to import guns or the businessmen?

Did you read the Bill?