The Religion Discussion

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Oh how about telling me what to do with the scriptures I have posted....

start by showing us what makes your translation of them more right than that of others.

[sMASH]

i do not know all of u personally, but i do not need to. i think i have ur logic structure down, since i was in it an all. some teachings of the bible are good and admirable, as there are in most of the other major religions of the world. but they are not made mandatory to fulfill ur criterion for being saved, which is the point of being a christian. most other religions teach about preservation, fair treatment, and minimal disruption, and make it part of their aspirations. salvation in christianity is not dependent on preservation of the environment. technically, someone could be a wife beater, child molester, and animal terrorist, still go to church every sunday mornin, and believe in the lord and sing his praises, and still go to heaven, because the the only criterion for entry into heaven is belief that jesus is god/son of (astagfirallah)

many of the christians do follow the rest of the book, that is why there is the red cross and aid to africa and pakistan, but it is not a mandatory thing.

in the western world, where most of the values were christian based, blacks were only legally considered people as soon as 200 years ago, women allowed to own property up to 100 years ago, blacks and women allowed to vote up to 50 years ago. and the predominant value system was christianity.

when u compare that to what was made law for a nation over 1400 years ago, that women could own property, a dowry was paid to the woman for marriage, the woman was to choose her husband, that if one man seeks the interest in a woman for marriage, no others should make proposal until she has officially rejected the previous offer, that all men are equals, that women, when they work could keep all they earn for themselves they own property and businesses, when they inherit they inherit a lesser sum than their brothers, but because the brothers' inheritances is to be shared among the members of his family, but hers is for herself alone. slavery was not banned, but when someone is regretful of a sin, and and wishes to atone for it here, the first thing that is advised is to free a slave, if one has no slaves then the other things like giving charity and helping widows and orphans and lastly in addition fasting and prayer. and the guide lines for treating a slave was as that as a worker, who belonged to a union which has links to the uncop, so u cant really mistreat them.

these things were made law over 1400 years ago, and adherence or rather breaking them resulted in punishment here, and we are advised that if god sees fit, in the hereafter as well.


but in my observation, people are people. in this country, they work, they make the house, they watch dong the young ting gion to skool. they wash their cars, gossip over the fence or ole talk by de bar. it doesn't matter what race or religion; if u is Old Chap u goin to a pastor for weddings and playing kaiso in the bar wit stag, if u is anoda u go to the pundit and lime with chutney and puncheon. all oman does carry news and worry bout what the neighbor daughter doin wit what ever man.

nobody have time or interest to think about the plants, and the stars, and the way water does flow. when the cast a drain, is for the water right there, at that time. they dont think about if it good enough to handle water from a real good thunderstorm or if they want to make a garage next to it in the near future. like a neighbor make two apartment in the downstairs level. he put the two apartments one behind the other, and their entrances on the same side, so that the back people have to pass in front of the front people entrance all de time. now there is confusion as to who cleaning the moss from the ground, and the privacy of the front people is intruded when ever the back people have to pass. these simple intrusions could have been avoided if the neighbor thought about how it goin to play out, and make their entrances on opposite sides or put them both side by side so their entrances were both in front, neither a bother to the other.

this inability or disinterest in considering more than what is necessary i find very mundane a sheep like. some one here, either qg or toyo say they sponsor children in africa or some where and give part of their time or income to some charity. i find that admirable and should be an example to every one. they do not stay as much in their sphere of comfort as the rest of us and do what not the norm, which is going about the day to day trying to get as much as u can for as little as u would give, disinterested in the wider universe.
the only thing that matters to them is only what affects them. like clico investors. they dont care that is tax money being used to give them back money, all they want is their money, and they dont care that is a risk they take and that only what was insured was mandatory to pay back and even so, is a kind gesture that the govt making to keep the company form disbanding and making all contracts null and non redeemable. they put their money and want it back, and they dont care about if the other investors get it back and if the other people have more critical issues to deal with than them.
and this selfishness is not limited to any specific religion or race, but is symptomatic of all. most of the times is because the religious people fail to investigate their own teachings past the obvious parts and dont see the necessity to try to understand the finer parts. religion to them is just a type of clothes, kind of song and a place to go, and nothing more.

but while some scriptures make that indifference a punishable sin, others make it a nice thing to do, with no bearing on the salvation of that person.

[sMASH]

fleck, that was really like 3 posts... i leave the pc to do all kinds of things all over de place.

[megadoc1]

Mr MegaDoc1 sir!!! My message is very similar but is how you go about in doing it!
I believe in Jesus Christ, but I don't expect everyone to share my beliefs.
it is not about what we expect, it what we are commanded to do
that is spread the word Of God,now if you believe the word of God is truth
then you will know for sure that anything else is a lie and as long as you preach what you hold as truth you will offend people agreed?
question is do you put the fear of offending people (because the word of God will always seem as offending)before what your lord require of you?
Scientists try to prove Evolution over God, that don't give us the right to condemn the Scientist nor call Hawkin a MadMan!! you can just compare him to the word of God
The man just doing what he was born to do.agreed that is to call your lord a liar..ent Jesus knew Judas was going to betray him?? Then why would Jesus sit and have Suppa with Judas, and not condemn/kill him??
Jesus knows that anyone not receiving him will face eternal death
you know this too would you forsake your job as a Christian for fear of offending someone?



Tell me something Megadoc1, after all the Scriptures that you, Bluefete and others (myself) posted from the Bible, did Mg Man, Duane, Kasey and others accepted Christ yet?
it don't look so but that aint mean we should stop[
should we quit preaching the word of God because no one appears to be listening?


Are you going to get a Bator and beat them until they believe in Christ?
I think you strayed far enough from the bible

We did what we can, it's up to them to accept or reject! Who wants to bash Christianity, LEAVE THEM BE!! Throwing Fire back will not solve NOTHING!
You and other Christians know exactly that Jesus would not do that, so don't fight back! by chance can you explain how we are fighting back?

You fight back when people attack Christianity! If someone from another religion attacks you for what ever reason...do not bother to fight back...just keep preaching for the Lord!
I hear you bro I must admit though that when I started I was a bit too rough
and it was all because I couldn't stand seeing people talking and mocking a God
who have just proven himself to me, to be true and faithful,
a God who I have just seen exercised his power against the demonic realm
just to deliver me from death and to show me how much he loves me
soon I realized that the very ones that mocked him needed him most
and that he(Jesus) himself only responds to their mockery in love...... so in a way I was wrong but I am human
however I decided that if my God is to be mocked it is nothing for me to receive part of it
because he is faithful and true to me
and I will tell the truth no matter who is offended because now, I want them to receive what I have received not only because it is the will of God but out of love for them,

where ever I go whoever I meet
the message from the God of Israel remains the same even if it costs me my life



I will not forsake my job as a Christian for no Human!! I preach to anyone and tell them about Jesus...if they don't want to believe me that's fine, everything wll be in the hands of God! great keep it up remember this, even when Jesus spoke he was mocked and stoned because somehow, his words always seemed to have offended someone
and he said the same way they hated him is the same way they will hate us but they only hate us because they hated him first

[megadoc1]

Oh how about telling me what to do with the scriptures I have posted....

start by showing us what makes your translation error of them more right than that of others.

it is not his translation ,.....if it is the bible you are talking about choose
one that is suitable for you or get your own translator and try the original language
he did show how he arrived at his beliefs based on the the scriptures posted now he put them there to be refuted
wait ...you ignored that

[d spike]

So why not keep your opinion to yourself
Why? Wasn't this a discussion where folks voiced their opinions?

I think I have played fair
And? You want a cookie? I have been quite fair, in my estimation. I'm sure Megadoc has been fair, in his own estimation. Even the character who popped in from time to time in a previous religious thread, and spoke of Jesus as an alien, or another who claimed Satan as his 'owner', I'm sure they thought they were quite fair. Who do you think considers their own actions unfair?

I have not only put my opinions on the table but have also show the scriptures that back my belief giving others a chance to show me where I am in error of interpreting these verses
That was your choice. No one said this was supposed to be a "I show you mine, you show me yours" contest... This was a discussion. Carry on.

You claim to teach Christianity well show me how your belief is formed so that I can understand
It does not work that way, I'm afraid. What I do, is done in a far more formal, structured environment, with those who are able to grasp previously accepted concepts. I don't run a carny show...

as we both know it won't change my mind
...neither do I enjoy wasting my time.

but I would like to see how people come to these conclusions based on scripture
Then direct your conversation in this regard to Megadoc, QG, Smash, and the many others who are happy to show and explain why they believe what they believe. I honestly think you will be kept quite busy for some time with these gentlemen.

That dear sir is why I have been needling
Oh, so once you honestly want to know something, that is a good enough excuse to be unpleasant, eh? That explains a lot...

I do not care for your opinion, if you do not care to show me how you have come to such a conclusion/opinion
This was (up until this point) an open and free discussion. Whether you care for my opinion, or not, doesn't change it's value - just your opinion of it. Facts can be queried. My opinion is precisely that - my opinion. I certainly don't have to attempt to defend it in the face of those who clearly are seeking targets to spit at.

You seem to think that you are not guilty of the because we/i say so mentality that you accuse others of having
I have never said such a thing - in fact, quite the opposite. I have clearly stated that all persons will have their 'bias', due to personality, culture, upbringing, experiences, and so forth. Our personal choices are truly our own when we make them based on our exposure, experiences and learning. "To thine own self be true". The sign of maturity is in using one's own bias to judge what is right for oneself, but not letting it cloud one's judgment of others.
"You seem to think...", eh? You clearly have passed judgment on me already without truly considering what I have said here (the only facts before you) and this is a clear case of prejudiced thinking. In light of this, you really think I will feel comfortable discussing my religion with you?

How can one have a discussion on religion which includes Christianity and not discuss the death and resurrection of Christ
I never said one mustn't. If you wish to, go right ahead. That's how a discussion works. One person raises an issue, someone else responds, So feel free, go right ahead. Just don't be so crass and out of place to demand that I answer you, especially when I have shown that I have declined to do so. Go shake some other tree.

including the catholic church that you have said that doc and I don't appreciate
Was I mistaken? You do appreciate the Catholic Church? What about the Messianics? The Mormons? The Copts?
If you don't appreciate them as true Christians, why discuss them? That's like stating at astronomy class that stars are probably the souls of dead fireflies... is that going to be discussed? Or would you be considered as wasting time?
I don't like my time to be wasted... I have no idea how little I may have left.
Why would you want to discuss something you clearly do not approve of? I think you just want target practice. Just as I wouldn't want any Catholic to use me for target practice, I will not allow myself to be accused of helping you in your sport.

Just like you there are many schools of thought that follow the beliefs I hold
That's very nice.

So what makes you right about Christianity and me wrong
I could very well ask you that question... but I won't. I have my beliefs, and they are based on my life's experiences and those that have gone before me, as well as my studies... I trust you, Smash, and all the others can say the same. You follow the path of your own choosing... not the one you have been badgered by someone else into following.

So if I am not asking to much voice your opinion on the death and resurrection of Christ and the bases for such and opinion as found in the scripture, that you say we misread
Rereading my responses above will clearly answer this. I believe I am not here to teach - that is for somewhere else. I am merely acting as a guide. All I will suggest is that you carefully review your tenets, and more importantly, the actions their influence encourages you to perform. I will not be as crass as some to demand you explain why you think what you think. Unlike such characters, I respect the choice of belief of others - until they start disrespecting such a choice. I hope to ask the same of others is not asking too much.

unless there is something to hide?
I have nothing to hide. My students and those who know me well (ask MG) will tell you that, among friends, speaking of such topics is a favourite activity of mine. If you cannot appreciate privacy, I can't explain it. I am happy with my body, but I am not going to walk around naked in public! I see no reason to expose my private thoughts for public ridicule... and you are out of place to demand that I do. And you have made it very clear in this post (and others) that my opinion is not regarded very highly by your good self... so why all this needling? It's not like my answers will mean much to you... your rudeness alone shows that.

Oh how about telling me what to do with the scriptures I have posted
Considering the choice of tone in the above post, believe you me, I am strongly tempted to tell you exactly what you could do with the material you have posted... your keyboard and PC as well...

It is very clear that some here only respect the views of those who share similar views. Dissimilar views can be derided and scorned. While I enjoy the rollicking banter of Trinituner, I see no reason to subject myself to unnecessary hardship at the hands of a clearly antagonistic few.

I used to read this, Bluefete's "God" thread, in amazement (while not the most accurate word, that's the most polite word I can use to describe how I felt), but I never even wished to voice an opinion. This decision was based on my experiences regarding discussions amongst differing faiths. While it sounds like a good idea to compare differences, observe similarities, and generally learn of different ways of looking at the same thing, this never works for religion, unless the persons involved share a strong sense of trust, respect, wisdom and maturity - as well as a very good grasp of language.
Thus it is that whenever average people discuss religion (especially Christianity) it soon turns into either a competition, an evangelistic affair, or a fight - or all three, in that order.
But then someone I know, who is fed up of the nonsense that passes for the fundamentalist view on Tuner, started a 'religiously-themed' thread just to see how foolish these goodly folk could get - and lad, did they ever.
Then I realised that the only view representing those who consider the teachings of the Christ more than just interesting, were a handful of blinded literalists whose only knowledge of scripture was what they were fed.

And here was my conundrum: When I read Bluefete's thread, I was quite certain the spouted nonsense I came across was precisely that - because of what I knew. Suppose I didn't know... then my assumption would be that despite whatever sense Jesus' words might make, his followers are all complete imbeciles. If a drink has a magnificent bouquet, but all who drink it go mad - then bet your last cent I ain't tasting it.
And so I decided (against the better judgment of most of my peers) to attempt to be the voice of reason - not for the benefit of Bluefete, or Sir Civic, or this Megadoc1... but for the curiously minded who might otherwise shy away from delving into what could result in a better understanding of why we all are here.

[sMASH]

can u trace the steps from which they left jesus' mouth to the document u have today? can u account for the writers who penned the words?
even some of the books, as i understand, are attributed to people who did not write them but were the famous person of the time.

those can be additions, or modifications.

[QG]

At least I hope u see and understand where I coming from megadoc1. A lot of ppl are looking at us Christians asv the baf ones due to some of our actions. You read the news where an American Pastor wanted to burn the Muslim Prayer Book on the day after Eid??? God will never accept those actions; his actions will only promote more Hate!! I keep saying that there are ways in which people can handke situations without the need to dis-regard other's beliefs

For when a man mock our faith, they mock not us but God!
I speak to all religions alike (Muslims, Hindus, Christians etc) if our Gods wanted to abolish each others religions, he would have done so a long time ago! We are all here co-existing together for a purpose and reason. So let's all stop the Hating and try to learn from each other!

[sMASH]

ok, the pastor, u say that action of mocking the other religion would never be accepted by the god. what happens to him for making that statement or if he did burn it, what should happen to him for doing so? would he go to hell for it, would he go to hell for a time for it, would he still go to heaven but get a stern look of dissatisfaction or would he go to a lesser heaven or enjoy lesser comforts than if her were never to commit those acts?

i am not tryin to mock this time, i am trying to figure out how it works.

if u have an answer, please provide it, if u dont, u dont need to put sumting or quote sumthing in replacement, just say ur not sure or u need to get back. when u quote sumting, u leave the interpretation up to the reader, and i would interpret sumthing of my own design and when i say sumting based on that, u would get vex and say i eh understand... but when asked to clarify u did not clarify, u left it up to me to get my own version.

in other words, if u know answer the question outright, dont dance like mega. if u dont know, is no scenes.

[d spike]

if u have an answer, please provide it, if u dont, u dont need to put sumting or quote sumthing in replacement, just say ur not sure or u need to get back. when u quote sumting, u leave the interpretation up to the reader, and i would interpret sumthing of my own design and when i say sumting based on that, u would get vex and say i eh understand... but when asked to clarify u did not clarify, u left it up to me to get my own version.

in other words, if u know answer the question outright, dont dance like mega. if u dont know, is no scenes.

Smash, if you had said this a lot earlier (and all stuck to this line of thought) perhaps this thread would have been a lot shorter...

[toyo682]

i do not know all of u personally, but i do not need to.I guess if I think that way all muslims would be bomb carrying terrorist, but we know better. i think i have ur logic structure downthink again my friend, since i was in it an allyou were in my logic structure? when?. some teachings of the bible are good and admirable, as there are in most of the other major religions of the world. but they are not made mandatory to fulfill ur criterion for being saved, which is the point of being a christian. most other religions teach about preservation, fair treatment, and minimal disruption, and make it part of their aspirations. salvation in christianity is not dependent on preservation of the environment. technically, someone could be a wife beater, child molester, and animal terrorist, still go to church every sunday mornin, and believe in the lord and sing his praises, and still go to heaven, because the the only criterion for entry into heaven is belief that jesus is god/son of (astagfirallah)wrong these people will not if the bible is true.

many of the christians do follow the rest of the book, that is why there is the red cross and aid to africa and pakistan, but it is not a mandatory thing.Well it is, I'll let you in on a secret half of the people in the church aren't save they are merely religious. That is why polls can be bias, I have family who if asked will say they are Christian yet they only go to church for weddings and funerals, don't read their Bible or pray, but in many surveys they would be counted as guess what a Christian. Maybe you should see that not every person who call themselves Christian is follow Christ. going to Church or practicing religion does not save a person it is a life change relationship with Christ. Didn't Jesus have issues with the religious people of his time, who like many today mistake religion for righteousness.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:8-10

[toyo682]

ok, the pastor, u say that action of mocking the other religion would never be accepted by the god. what happens to him for making that statement or if he did burn it, what should happen to him for doing so? personallly I thought this man was a backside, but like I said not everyone who is in church or stands on a pulpit to preach they are saved. The Bible tells is that "by their fruits you will know them." There is a fruit of salvation, which is why eph 2:10 says we are saved to do good works. This brings to life the story of the good Samaritan. You see the Jewish man did not mind doing good to other Jews, but the Samaritans was another story. That is why he tried to justify who his neighbor was the Bible tells us. Now while many here already think I am disrespectful I cannot help that, I have posted the scriptures you be the judge. While I preach Christ is the only way and yes to some if not many that is offensive I would never, take up arms to convert people, burn temples,etc etc. Nor do I teach the people under me to do so. I merely speak what the Bible says. In fact those who know me well know that I am critical of Christianity, because many people as you have said do not live up to it. I have learned however that when it boils down to it my relationship with Christ cannot be shaped by what I see it others but what I see in the word of God. Belief in Christ is not a rocking chair that is what James as talking about. Your salvation is justified by what you do, that meaning, if you say you are saved the fruits of such salvation would be evident in the way you live your life. Paul and James did not contradict each other as many believe. Like Peter said in 1 Peter 3:16 many at that time had misunderstood the hard teachings of Paul, which was the reason for James saying what he said. would he go to hell for it, would he go to hell for a time for it, would he still go to heaven but get a stern look of dissatisfaction or would he go to a lesser heaven or enjoy lesser comforts than if her were never to commit those acts?would he go to hell, well you be the judge based on what I have said, I can only hope for him and many Christians out there that we see the error of our ways each day and strive to correct them. My greatest fear is to stand before him and have him say depart from me I never knew you.

i am not tryin to mock this time, i am trying to figure out how it works.

if u have an answer, please provide it, if u dont, u dont need to put sumting or quote sumthing in replacement, just say ur not sure or u need to get back. when u quote sumting, u leave the interpretation up to the reader, and i would interpret sumthing of my own design and when i say sumting based on that, u would get vex and say i eh understand... but when asked to clarify u did not clarify, u left it up to me to get my own version.

in other words, if u know answer the question outright, dont dance like mega. if u dont know, is no scenes.

[cacasplat3]

a few days ago, a friend was watching a 'smallie' in a bit of an suspect way......then he smiled and said.....'whey boi......i have to start back going to church'...........i realised that, for him, going to church gave him some guidance to avoid the things that he may consider to be wrong........i understand that everyone is different, and everyone has different ways of dealing with their shortcomings.......but i never understood why soo many millions of people believe they can find the answers in a church/mosque/temple etc.

for myself and a few people i know, the answers and help we needed have always come from within.........a few minutes of silent pondering, whether its done while sitting on the throne in the morning, or while kicking around a football after work, or while actually working. this has yet to fail me, as i consider my personal life to be quite healthy and fulfilling...............and from that, i have always asked......is it that the people who seek help from the church are really genuinely dependant on the church for help? or has it become a sort of entrapment by the church, where its members are fed (possibly a lie) that they have to continue following the church to lead a good life?................it may all be subconscious by both the congregation and church leaders, but the term "blind sheep" continues to pop into my mind.........




by the way, while i respect others beliefs and opinions.........mdoc needs to stop this "i know god exists" things......truth is he believes......
whatever he has seen or experienced, may appear to him as acts of god, but in the eyes of a true sceptic, i'm sure it would be different......

[sMASH]

so what i gather from ur last post there toyo, after u become a christian, u do good works or u supposed to do good works? i think about the scenario back in the 1900's, and before where the people thought that non-whites were not human, women were also property, and other things not approved of. i am not talking about one person doing all that. i am talking about like a plantation owner who sponsors a school, he goes to church e'ry sunday, and treats blacks worse than the beasts which till the soil. is not that he does evil, he believes in god and believes in the bible, most people who know him hold him in great esteem, but he is a slave owner and very stern/harsh with his animals, four and two legged.

he believes that non whites are no more than longer monkeys but also is a christian

i forgot to put the question, they do something which we hold to be wrong, and do not ask forgiveness but he believes in the jesus, does he go to heaven or to hell? i am under the impression it supposed to be either/or...
-what happens to the good person who does some bad and what happens to the bad person who does some good, with neither of them repentant
-what happens to the good non christian, and what happens to the christian who has taken to the bottle a little more than other people. or the christian who is given to a bit of rage and often has to make use of it as he is a prison officer.n the prison officer u say may ask forgiveness, but after a time, his baton may become verb and the brutality we think of it as would be his nature in there; that it doesnt seem weird at all.

would they go to hell forever or would the go to heaven forever?

[d spike]

can u trace the steps from which they left jesus' mouth to the document u have today? can u account for the writers who penned the words?
even some of the books, as i understand, are attributed to people who did not write them but were the famous person of the time.

those can be additions, or modifications.

Smash, if memory serves me right, most of what you have said agrees with basic Christian doctrine. While my opinion might not seem to meet the approval of some, I certainly do agree with many of your points.
I can appreciate the fervour of the Muslims, where ensuring that their scriptures remain exactly the way they were written, thus maintaining perfect originality of their writings through time.
The bible, however, is quite different in the way it was compiled, the multiplicity of authors of the individual parts (their idiom, personality, and even religious beliefs varied) and the time-span that it covers.
These writings were compiled almost 400 years after Christ's crucifixion, and some of it is made up of even smaller compilations.
The writings that were finally considered for membership in the Christian book club (aka the bible) at that time fell into three categories: protocanonical books (those everybody accepted as scripture), deutercanonical books (those that some accepted and some didn't), and apocrypha (books that weren't seen as scripture - the word is Greek for "writings").

When Luther came along and began his rant, he decided that it was a lot easier to solve the mess the Western Church was in by rejecting the parts of scripture that referred to the issues he had problems with. He ended up throwing some out onto the garbage heap of "not truly inspired" (seven deutercanonical books from the Old Testament and Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelations from the New Testament) but later Protestants dragged them back inside the house - only the New Testament ones, though.

All these books are generally accepted as scripture by Christians, because of what they speak about (the belief that they contain revealed truth) not because of who wrote them. ("Accepted as containing revealed truth" and "accepted as being literal truth" are two totally different things, but that is another story.)

While in our time, someone producing work under the name of another would be seen as fraud, this was not always so. I always maintain that to properly understand scripture, one must study the culture and idiom of the author first.

Literalists date all of Paul's epistles before his death circa 65 AD.
Many theologians believe that there is some material embedded in some of Paul's epistles that is actually much more recent material from other Christian sources - e.g. hymns, creedal formulas, confessions of faith. They seem to date from as late as the middle of the second century AD, some 85 years after Paul's death.
A.Q. Morton completed an analysis of these Epistles. He assumed that Galatians was written by Paul, and did a computer study of the style of the remaining letters using that epistle as a reference. His computer found that only Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, and Philemon matched the precise writing style of the author of Galatians. He assumed that the remaining 8 were written in the name of Paul by persons unknown.
Most liberal scholars of New Testament theology believe that:

Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Philemon, Galatians, Philippians and 1 Thessalonians were written by Paul.

Colossians may have been written by Paul.

2 Thessalonians and Ephesians probably were not.

1 and 2 Timothy and Titus were definitely pseudonymous (written by a unknown person, passing the writings off as Paul's.) They were written 35 to 85 years after Paul's death. Although such a writer would be considered a forger today, the practice was quite common in the 1st century AD, and was considered acceptable behavior.
Fr. Raymond E. Brown, is a member of the Vatican's Roman Pontifical Biblical Commission, and was described by Time magazine as "probably the premier Catholic scripture scholar in the U.S." He has expressed his beliefs concerning the authorship of these epistles:

In his opinion, of the thirteen epistles which say that they were written by Paul, critical scholars have reached a near consensus that seven are Paul's: 1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Philippians, Philemon and Romans.

Agreement that he did not write:

1 & 2 Timothy and Titus is about 90%

Ephesians is about 80%

Colossians is about 60%

2 Thessalonians is a slight majority.


The clear majority of scholars do not believe that Paul wrote the letters to Timothy that were written in his name. They say that 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy are clearly second century epistles and were therefore written long after his death. A follower used Paul's name to give the epistles the appearance of authenticity, but they were never sent to Timothy. The purpose was to expound a Christian doctrine from a Pauline perspective, giving the author's views the imprimatur of the apostle Paul.

Cheers, lad. Keep strong

[sMASH]

ok, lets explore the smallie.... situation.


the man watch the samllie, and gone to church, calm dong himself, and after august holidays done, the smallie come back home, and is the same church they attend...
he interacting with the flock, and start to talk with samllie. he cool, and tryin to keep so. then they end up in one of the rooms in the back alone, ting start to go on. prob u may not like that this happening in church, so lets say they have a function by her neighbor and he attends to help out. they manage to reach in she garage and the ting start to go on. but they stop, saying is immoral an ting... but pressure done build, both sides. then they bonx up in trincity and they lime, and then start to go home in one car, as one of them come up with another group. lo and behold the expected goes on before they reach home. then when the put on some clothes they get run over by junior sammy and dead.
they believe in jesus but performs premarital sex, and den did not get time to beg forgiveness. do the go to heaven for believing in christ or do they go to hell for repeatedly indulging their lust till satisfaction?

[megadoc1]

At least I hope u see and understand where I coming from megadoc1.yes sir I do A lot of ppl are looking at us Christians asv the baf ones due to some of our actions. You read the news where an American Pastor wanted to burn the Muslim Prayer Book on the day after Eid??? yes but that is not our job that is for Jesus to do when he comes back our job is only to preach the word,cast out devils,heal the sick etcGod will never accept those actions; his actions will only promote more Hate!! very true it more like provocation
I keep saying that there are ways in which people can handke situations without the need to dis-regard other's beliefs but in preaching the word of God that cannot be avoided
now if it was a thread where Muslims or Hindus were having a discussion and i go in there and start to do what I do here, then one can say that I am disrespectful but all what we say
was said in a thread based on the true and living God and those coming in to mock heard
and became offended, they not even thinking that they were being rude in the first place

For when a man mock our faith, they mock not us but God! true ....just let them know that our God respond in love to their mockery but just dont leave this life without making peace with him
I speak to all religions alike (Muslims, Hindus, Christians etc) if our Gods wanted to abolish each others religions, he would have done so a long time ago!good good and that is the same reason why it is wrong for us to burn other religious texts,burn people at the stake ,release pigs into a mosque,run in the catholic church and demand that they stop preaching lies,shoot at obeah man and witches and whatever else one can come up with because God respects their free will and the same grace that was made available for us is available for them too but they have to choose it not be forced to take it (although some people think we ,preaching the word alone is actually forcing them to do so but how can they choose if they don't hear?) We are all here co-existing together for a purpose and reason. So let's all stop the Hating and try to learn from each other!

[d spike]

ok, lets explore the smallie.... situation.

...they believe in jesus but performs premarital sex, and den did not get time to beg forgiveness. do the go to heaven for believing in christ or do they go to hell for repeatedly indulging their lust till satisfaction?

Well, according to a really great 'sig' of someone on Tuner, "it isn't premarital sex if they have no intentions of getting married".

But seriously...
You have raised a very important point that will never be properly answered by a fundamentalist, because of the gaps in their doctrine... so various folks of that ilk will mumble something and rapidly change the subject - invariably by suggesting that as you are aware of this possibility of going to hell, what is your situation, and are you saved?

The question is this: If only pure and undefiled things can enter heaven, and evil-doers end up in hell... then what about those who die with a minor transgression that has not been dealt with, or a sinner that truly recants at the last moment... in other words, most of us will most likely not be totally pure and undefiled at the time of death... where would we end up?

Fundamentalists, who by their nature have everything in black and white, are stymied by this... for rules are rules, and it is very clear what is not allowed to enter the very presence of God. So they twist other beliefs in order to get the answer... rather like the frustrated child completing a jigsaw puzzle by clipping or damaging a piece, in order to make it fit - for to do otherwise (admit error, take it apart, start again) would be too much for their ego to suffer.
So they claim that salvation actually comes from knowing and admitting the Boss' name ("mention my name and you'll get a good seat") and so their followers are already saved, and thus pure (and do good deeds out of gratitude)...
The problem that is apparent to all is that their followers are human, and will therefore tumble headfirst back into the mire of temptation and transgression.
They solve this impediment by referring to the bountiful forgiving nature of God... their followers are contrite, forgiveness is doled out, the ticket is still good.

However, when it is pointed out to them that God is forgiving to all, the bickering starts.
Only the 'saved' were being referred to, when forgiveness was being spoken about? Or that laughable supposition, that claims that while god's forgiveness is given to all, only the 'saved' can benefit from it...
Or the glorious twist that since "Christ died for the sins of men", then obviously all sins are already forgiven... when they occur isn't important.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

I must admit though that when I started I was a bit too rough
and it was all because I couldn't stand seeing people talking and mocking a God
who have just proven himself to me, to be true and faithful,
a God who I have just seen exercised his power against the demonic realm
just to deliver me from death and to show me how much he loves me

How is God faithful to you for what you believe as opposed to not being faithful to someone else with other beliefs? and what is the demonic realm you talking about? Do you have proof of it?

Oh how about telling me what to do with the scriptures I have posted....

start by showing us what makes your translation error of them more right than that of others.

it is not his translation ,.....if it is the bible you are talking about choose
one that is suitable for you or get your own translator and try the original language
he did show how he arrived at his beliefs based on the the scriptures posted now he put them there to be refuted
wait ...you ignored that

spin how you want, it is YOUR translation: You have already proven here that your beliefs are not exactly that of bluefete, Toyo or QG; you each have varying nuances of belief and what you believe should be literal and what should be figurative or less important.

So my question remains very valid. Prove that YOUR translation and beliefs are more right than that of others.

[d spike]

Oh how about telling me what to do with the scriptures I have posted....

start by showing us what makes your translation error of them more right than that of others.

it is not his translation ,.....if it is the bible you are talking about choose
one that is suitable for you or get your own translator and try the original language
he did show how he arrived at his beliefs based on the the scriptures posted now he put them there to be refuted
wait ...you ignored that

spin how you want, it is YOUR translation

Okay, Duane, I think the word you mean is "interpretation". Megadoc KNOWS this, and is just playing with semantics. (Be grateful. That means he actually has started using a dictionary!)

So my question remains very valid. Prove that THE CONCEPTS THAT YOU HAVE DERIVED FROM YOUR INTERPRETATION and beliefs are more right than that of others.

Fixed.

[toyo682]

ok, lets explore the smallie.... situation.


the man watch the samllie, and gone to church, calm dong himself, and after august holidays done, the smallie come back home, and is the same church they attend...
he interacting with the flock, and start to talk with samllie. he cool, and tryin to keep so. then they end up in one of the rooms in the back alone, ting start to go on. prob u may not like that this happening in church, so lets say they have a function by her neighbor and he attends to help out. they manage to reach in she garage and the ting start to go on. but they stop, saying is immoral an ting... but pressure done build, both sides. then they bonx up in trincity and they lime, and then start to go home in one car, as one of them come up with another group. lo and behold the expected goes on before they reach home. then when the put on some clothes they get run over by junior sammy and dead.
they believe in jesus but performs premarital sex, and den did not get time to beg forgiveness. do the go to heaven for believing in christ or do they go to hell for repeatedly indulging their lust till satisfaction?

You still seem to be missing what I am saying, your faith is justified by your actions, ie your salvation produces fruit. repentance is not about saying sorrow or feel sorrow alone it is also about turning away from sin. let me quote James,You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. The mere belief that Jesus exist does not mean a person is saved, how you have come to that conclusion I do not know. There must be a turning away from sin and turning to Christ. We are saved by faith in Jesus but the evidence of our salvation is seen by what we do "good works". So a person who says they believe in Jesus yet continues to blatantly sin, their faith is in vain, they have missed the mark by miles.

Smash I note that you are pointing out the flaws of Christianity by these things, but you seem to ignore the things that Islam has done. Islam is one of the most violent religions on the earth right now, but I guess you will say that Osama is not really Muslim nor are the extremist, funny how that works every person who calls themselves Christian whether they be good or bad seem to be true Christians in your eyes. My wife's missionary friends just had to flee turkey where Muslims are now killing Christians but I am sure you will say they are making that up. The message you preach here about Islam and the Islam we see in the middle east is two different religions my friend.

[toyo682]

So my question remains very valid. Prove that THE CONCEPTS THAT YOU HAVE DERIVED FROM YOUR INTERPRETATION and beliefs are more right than that of others.

Fixed.

Now this makes more sense, I was wondering how Duane came up with the TNIV being my efforts of translation.

However my answer to the question is read what it says and comprehend what it says. And when in doubt check the Greek to see how the translator came up with what they did. That is what I do when I find a exegesis that is different from those of the school of though I follow.

[toyo682]

so what i gather from ur last post there toyo, after u become a christian, u do good works or u supposed to do good works? i think about the scenario back in the 1900's, and before where the people thought that non-whites were not human, women were also property, and other things not approved of. i am not talking about one person doing all that. i am talking about like a plantation owner who sponsors a school, he goes to church e'ry sunday, and treats blacks worse than the beasts which till the soil. is not that he does evil, he believes in god and believes in the bible, most people who know him hold him in great esteem, but he is a slave owner and very stern/harsh with his animals, four and two legged.

he believes that non whites are no more than longer monkeys but also is a christian

One more note on this these sort of things happen when people ignore what the Bible says...

[megadoc1]

[

Smash I note that you are pointing out the flaws of Christianity by these things, but you seem to ignore the things that Islam has done. Islam is one of the most violent religions on the earth right now, but I guess you will say that Osama is not really Muslim nor are the extremist, funny how that works every person who calls themselves Christian whether they be good or bad seem to be true Christians in your eyes. My wife's missionary friends just had to flee turkey where Muslims are now killing Christians but I am sure you will say they are making that up. The message you preach here about Islam that the Islam we see in the middle east is two different religions my friend.

wow ...I for so long wanted to say that
he claims to know what Christianity is about but the islam he preached here is clearly not the islam
that came fort from Muhammad so is either he don't even know what his own religion is about or he is simply trying to decieve someone

[d spike]

ok, lets explore the smallie.... situation.


the man watch the samllie, and gone to church, calm dong himself, and after august holidays done, the smallie come back home, and is the same church they attend...
he interacting with the flock, and start to talk with samllie. he cool, and tryin to keep so. then they end up in one of the rooms in the back alone, ting start to go on. prob u may not like that this happening in church, so lets say they have a function by her neighbor and he attends to help out. they manage to reach in she garage and the ting start to go on. but they stop, saying is immoral an ting... but pressure done build, both sides. then they bonx up in trincity and they lime, and then start to go home in one car, as one of them come up with another group. lo and behold the expected goes on before they reach home. then when the put on some clothes they get run over by junior sammy and dead.
they believe in jesus but performs premarital sex, and den did not get time to beg forgiveness. do the go to heaven for believing in christ or do they go to hell for repeatedly indulging their lust till satisfaction?

You still seem to be missing what I am saying, your faith is justified by your actions, ie your salvation produces fruit. repentance is not about saying sorrow or feel sorrow alone it is also about turning away from sin. let me quote James,You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. The mere belief that Jesus exist does not mean a person is saved, how you have come to that conclusion I do not know. There must be a turning away from sin and turning to Christ. We are saved by faith in Jesus but the evidence of our salvation is seen by what we do "good works". So a person who says they believe in Jesus yet continues to blatantly sin, their faith is in vain, they have missed the mark by miles.

Smash I note that you are pointing out the flaws of Christianity by these things, but you seem to ignore the things that Islam has done. Islam is one of the most violent religions on the earth right now, but I guess you will say that Osama is not really Muslim nor are the extremist, funny how that works every person who calls themselves Christian whether they be good or bad seem to be true Christians in your eyes. My wife's missionary friends just had to flee turkey where Muslims are now killing Christians but I am sure you will say they are making that up. The message you preach here about Islam that the Islam we see in the middle east is two different religions my friend.

Don't you just love the concise and articulate way in which Smash's question was answered?

But seriously...
You have raised a very important point that will never be properly answered by a fundamentalist, because of the gaps in their doctrine... so various folks of that ilk will mumble something and rapidly change the subject...

Smash wasn't talking about BLATANT sinning. Two young kids with hormones pouring out of their ears, aren't blatant sinners, just unknowing fish in a shore pool at the onset of low tide...

Paul writes about this 'condition', stating that perhaps marriage is best... and good Christian folk, well past adolescence - and their memories of it - love to quote him. However, a study of this work and the early Christian culture it was set in, shows that it was a common belief that the Christ was returning very soon, and so, long term things like settling down and watching the kiddies grow old, was not considered a priority - neither was it considered an eventual reality. (It took the passage of time and the death of the original Jesus crew, to make the young church realise that the bus may be a little late...)
So in Paul's mind, if the young 'uns are too hot n' sweaty, give them a room and the Church's blessings... let them work it out of their system, and get back to working in the vineyard.

[megadoc1]

I must admit though that when I started I was a bit too rough
and it was all because I couldn't stand seeing people talking and mocking a God
who have just proven himself to me, to be true and faithful,
a God who I have just seen exercised his power against the demonic realm
just to deliver me from death and to show me how much he loves me

How is God faithful to you for what you believe as opposed to not being faithful to someone else with other beliefs? oh very simple God stands by his word ,we act on what it says and the results are just how he said it would be,thats how we know God word is truth but if you believe in a word that does not come from God (the bible)no matter how sincere your faith is,it means nothing ,
therefore God cannot be faithful to something he never uttered and what is the demonic realm you talking about?it is the kingdom of darkness where satan and his followers (demons)seek to steal ,kill and destroy the souls of mankind and they use everything at their disposal to keep man in bondage. Do you have proof of it? do you want to see?

[d spike]

I must admit though that when I started I was a bit too rough

A bit?!?!? Are you kidding???
The first thing you did was to claim MG had demons and his master was Satan (when all he did was make a crass response; just one of many others made by others and ignored by you)... and the second post was to rebuke me in large red letters, simply because you were told to be a little more mannerly.
A bit rough? You were a mannerless, little upstart, whose antics were only outdone by his lack of lucidity.

[megadoc1]

I must admit though that when I started I was a bit too rough

A bit?!?!? Are you kidding???
The first thing you did was to claim MG had demons and his master was Satan (when all he did was make a crass response; just one of many others made by others and ignored by you)... and the second post was to rebuke me in large red letters, simply because you were told to be a little more mannerly.
A bit rough? You were a mannerless, little upstart, whose antics were only outdone by his lack of lucidity.

doh take it on....I did remember telling you guys that God loves you and that you should turn from those wicked ways because they only leads to eternal death

[d spike]

That is what I do when I find a exegesis that is different from those of the school of though I follow.

I can easily believe that you follow "a school of though".

[d spike]

am....I doubt very much that sMASH was speaking about temptation

Very good! You are attempting to read the posts of others... that is wonderful progress on your part... keep it up! Now, look at my post again, for neither was I speaking about temptation... but the fact that the kids weren't blatant sinners.
Perhaps you would try to make a better attempt at answering Smash's question on what happens to those who slip a little on the way up?