Chopper Chat Thread

[bgh]

de new chopper smell was nice, I actually had a great 35min nap

[mrtrini45]

im surprised non of you have pics of our new c++ yet i will upload some for you tonight when i get home from work.

that's cool new pics

[Sasquat007]

saw 1 of sautt copters flyin real low up maracus st joesphs , real action , dont hav pics , real real low , it waz rite over meh head lol ah think some1 got arrested

[NorStar2K]

What stealth chopper(s) invaded/crashed on Osama's compound?



The May 2 raid on Osama bin Laden’s luxury compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, had it all: painstaking intelligence-gathering, a heroic Navy SEAL assault team, satellite and drone surveillance, and biometric forensics.

And now this: a possible super-secret, stealthy helicopter, unknown to the wider world before one crashed during the assault.

Aviation specialists are picking apart pixel-by-pixel the dozen-or-so photos of the copter that have appeared online. They’re assembling digital mock-ups of the aircraft and comparing them to lost stealth designs of the 1980s and ’90s. Speculation abounds, and so far no one from the government is commenting. But depending on what the copter turns out to be, it could shed new light on everything from the abilities of U.S. commandos to the relationship between the United States and Pakistan.

Opinions about the copter seem to fall into three basic camps. The most-cautious observers believe the wreckage is from a conventional chopper that got so badly mangled during the crash that it became unrecognizable. In the center, there are those who think the helicopter is an Army MH-60 Blackhawk tweaked to make it quieter and more stealthy. On the fringes, the true believers are talking about a brand-new, radar-evading helicopter design.

Considering the proliferation of bewildering photos from the crash site, the conservative viewpoint seems unlikely. Equally, the notion of a brand-new “black” helicopter seems far-fetched, especially considering the Army’s long history of heavily modifying existing rotorcraft for secret missions.

That leaves an upgraded, stealth-optimized MH-60 as the most likely candidate — a conclusion that jibes with CIA director Leon Panetta’s assertion Tuesday that the 25-man strike team was “carried in two Blackhawk helicopters that went in.”

A story by ace reporter Sean Naylor in Army Times, published just minutes after the initial version of this post, supports this conclusion. Naylor quotes a retired Special Forces aviator saying the special Blackhawk, modified by Lockheed Martin, has “hard edges, sort of like an … F-117″ stealth fighter from the same company.

According to a source who spoke to our own Spencer Ackerman, the modifications might have taken place with the help of a mysterious Army organization called the “Technology Applications Program Office,” located at Fort Eustis, Virginia. The rumored nickname? Airwolf. That’s right, like the cheesy ‘80 TV show.



side from one IT consultant who unwittingly live-tweeted the bin Laden raid, reports from Pakistani sources of a crashed helicopter were the first evidence that something was going down in Abbottabad. “According to eyewitnesses, a low-flying helicopter crashed in a populated area, and as a result two houses were engulfed in flames,” a Pakistani news service reported.

One local news agency claimed the downed bird was Pakistani. It wasn’t until several hours later that U.S. government sources clarified the initial stories. “We lost one helicopter due to mechanical failure,” a senior U.S. official said. “The aircraft was destroyed by the crew, and the assault force and crew members boarded the remaining aircraft to exit the compound.”

The official’s insistence — echoed later by Panetta — that there were just two choppers involved in the 25-man raid raised some eyebrows.

According to Capt. Crispin Burke, a U.S. Army Blackhawk pilot and Danger Room pal, two of the copters together can just barely squeeze in 25 people plus their weapons and other gear. But it’s inconceivable that a single surviving Blackhawk could have transported all 25 members of the assault team. Anyone who’s ridden in a Blackhawk knows that.

More than two choppers were present over bin Laden’s compound, despite what the administration was saying. That was the first indication that, as far as helicopters were concerned, something unusual was afoot.

Then came the photos. When the sun rose in Abbottabad, enterprising photographers with the European Press Agency and the Associated Press snapped pics showing the remains of the destroyed U.S. helicopter. The snapshots apparently depicted features not found on standard Blackhawks. Late on May 3, the first headlines appeared announcing the existence of a previously unknown “stealth helicopter.”



The Invisible Rotorcraft

So what was it that betrayed the downed choppers’ secret roots? Nearly rivetless skin, odd control surfaces, a shrouded tail rotor and special infrared-absorbing paint, for starters.

“Note how the UH-60 has a large stabilator [horizontal fin] with plenty of rivets,” Burke commented. “The one in the crash is much smaller, very smooth and swept back. Strange.”

A “round shield-like affair over the tail-rotor hub is an airflow diverter, designed to eliminate the turbulence around the rotor hub, making it more efficient,” wrote “Bill” from the milblog Arrgggh!. The diverter “probably has a secondary effect of reducing the noise of the tail rotor by making it directional.”

A very clear photo of that “shield” was given to Reuters, and appear at the top of this story.)

“The aircraft skin is interesting,” Bill continued. “It’s perfectly smooth, and I have a nagging hunch it’s something I’ve seen before, back in the late ’80s” — on an experimental OH-6 “Loach” scout chopper.

To him, the paint on the wrecked chopper appeared to be a “variation on the Invisible Loach — a light-emitting appliqué film which, coupled to directional cameras, will exactly reproduce the light and color patterns on the opposite side of the aircraft. Think of the aircraft as being made of glass.”

The stealthy copter also has a “special coating” on its windshield to scatter radar waves, Naylor asserts in his Army Times story.

Combined, the details imply a helicopter design that is more stealthy than standard choppers in every sense of the term. “Such a helicopter would not be invisible or silent, but would be harder to detect and track using an X-band or Ku-band radar, and quieter than a conventional helicopter,” said Carlo Kopp, joint head of the Air Power Australia think tank.

Based on the evidence, and the assumption that these improvements were applied to a basic Blackhawk airframe, aviation artist Ugo Crisponi produced a quick rendering of what the secret chopper might look like. The components depicted in the new Guardian photos — plus Naylor’s detailed description — match Crisponi’s concept pretty closely.

Historians and analysts were quick to point out precedents for the elusive bird. The obvious example is the Army’s überexpensive RAH-66 Comanche, killed off in 2004. That bird, Copp said, featured “shrouded rotor heads and unspecified absorbent materials” just like the mystery craft from Abbottabad.

John Pike, from Virginia-based Globalsecurity.org, highlighted the “MH-X,” a low-signature transport chopper project from the 1980s that was reportedly tested alongside the F-117 stealth fighter and B-2 stealth bomber.

Based on Naylor’s reporting, it appears that a handful of special Blackhawks — probably no more than four — indeed originated from the MH-X program, but plans for a large, permanent unit to fly these birds was cancelled “within the last two years.” Instead, Army Special Forces aviators took turns training on the stealth copters in Nevada, possibly at the secretive base known by some as “Area 51.”



Though the evidence is mounting that the newly revealed black chopper is more angular Blackhawk derived from the MH-X program, it could be a while before we know for sure. The Pentagon is slow to reveal its most-advanced aircraft.

Nearly two years have passed since the Air Force admitted it possessed a stealthy spy drone, the RQ-170 — and we still don’t have an official photo of that bird. Moreover, statements from Washington seem intended to obscure the issue of the mystery chopper.

In any event, the implications are potentially enormous. For one, the existence of a stealthy helicopter means we must revise upward our assessment of U.S. Special Operations Forces’ ability to strike fast and unseen, all over the world.

Second, we should take with a grain of salt all the recent hand-wringing over the supposed decay in the American military rotorcraft industry. If we really have already fielded the world’s first radar-evading helicopter, there’s less reason to worry that the United States might have lost its chopper-making skills.

Third, the fact that the Pentagon was willing to risk its most secret whirlybird “shows the importance of the mission in the eyes of U.S. commanders,” according to Aviation Week’s Bill Sweetman, who was, as usual, among the first to report on the new chopper.

Finally, the black helicopter sheds new light on the military’s suspicion of possible Pakistani interference in the bin Laden raid. In his speech announcing bin Laden’s death, President Barack Obama heaped praise on Pakistan. “Our counter-terrorism cooperation with Pakistan helped lead us to bin Laden.”

But Panetta later admitted that the United States had deliberately not told Pakistan of the impending raid. That “could jeopardize the mission,” because Pakistan “might alert the targets.”

Moreover, Joint Special Operations Command wasn’t comfortable simply arriving on the scene in its decidedly radar-visible Army Chinooks or Air Force MV-22 tilt-rotors. That would’ve meant essentially barging into Pakistani airspace, and hoping that Islamabad would refrain from targeting the attackers with surface-to-air-missiles.

No, JSOC felt it was necessary to stay off Pakistani radar displays for as long as possible. The unavoidable inference is that the commandos feared Pakistan might actually shoot at unannounced American choppers. That revelation, more so than the mere existence of a stealthy helicopter, could be the most compelling news of all.

Photo: Reuters, Associated Press.
Satellite image courtesy GeoEye.
Illustration courtesy David Cenciotti.

www.wired.com/dangerroom

[NorStar2K]

Conspiracy Theorists come forth.......................

[Type Rated]

Conspiracy you say.....

The tips of the blades are swept and anhedral to counter the tip speed breaking the sound barrier and creating the associated sonic boom....

The Tail rotor.... well the above explanation seems ok

stealth paint and all..... Seal team 6 did a good job of destroying the body but failed with the Tail section as it was over the wall.... but other pics of the charred wreckage show similar rotor head design to the MH 60 blackhawk

0.02

[qwkwhip]

good stuff there.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15749 ... r-25132130

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

the CNN story on this:

Bin Laden raid's lone glitch could be headache for U.S. military
By Larry Shaughnessy, CNN Pentagon Producer
May 6, 2011 -- Updated 2049 GMT (0449 HKT)



Washington (CNN) -- The one major problem for the Navy SEALs who killed Osama bin Laden was the crash of one of their helicopters.
It was no ordinary military chopper. Numerous aviation experts say they see several telltale signs of stealth technology in photos of what was left after the SEAL team tried to destroy the craft.
Some think it was a secret aircraft.
"Had this particular helicopter not crashed, we still would have no idea of its existence," said Gareth Jennings, the aviation desk editor for Jane's Defence Weekly.
Jennings and other aviation experts say the helicopter may have been a heavily modified version of the UH-60 Black Hawk, a mainstay of the military's helicopter fleet.
But it may include stealth technology developed for the now-canceled RAH-66 Comanche helicopter. That aircraft was designed to be an armed reconnaissance craft capable of carrying only two people.
Two of the aircraft were built for test flights before the Army canceled the program in 2004, not because of performance but because it needed money to upgrade existing helicopters. At the time, Les Brownlee, then acting secretary of the Army, said, "We will retain relevant technologies developed in the Comanche program."
At the same 2004 briefing about the cancellation of the Comanche, then-Army Chief of Staff Gen. Peter Schoomaker said, "much of what we've gained out of Comanche we can push forward into the tech base for future joint rotorcraft kinds of capabilities as we look further out."
The helicopter in question was left on the ground at the al Qaeda leader's compound during the raid early Monday.
The SEALs were able to destroy much of the main body of the helicopter when it became clear it couldn't fly. But the tail rotor assembly came down on the other side of the compound wall and was left largely intact deep inside Pakistan when the SEALs finished their mission.
Pakistani troops were seen hauling the wreckage away on trucks covered with tarps. The Department of Defense, which would not comment about any speculation about a "stealth helicopter," also wouldn't say whether it's asked Pakistan to give the wreckage back to the United States.
"Given the very strong defense ties that Pakistan and China currently have, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see this wreckage end up in Beijing," Jennings said.

"And that has to be of great concern to the U.S. Department of Defense, because with that technology, the Chinese or any third party could either incorporate that technology into their own aircraft or they can figure out ways to defeat that technology, thereby rending stealth technology like this largely useless in future operations," he said.
What makes the experts think the aircraft that crashed in Abbottabad was a secret "stealth helicopter?"
• "The first thing that stood out, and it may seem like a small thing, is the color scheme. Whereas most Black Hawk Army helicopters are painted olive green, this particular one is gray. Not just any gray; it's infrared-suppressant gray, and the purpose of the IR gray, as it's known, is to help reduce the vulnerability of the helicopter to ground-launched heat-seeking missile systems," Jennings told CNN Pentagon Correspondent Chris Lawrence.
• Photos from Abbottabad show that the chopper had a five-bladed tail rotor. "On a conventional Black Hawk, you have four blades. The addition of the extra rotor blades on the tail rotor hub reduces the acoustic signature of the helicopter there by making it hard to hear, giving the SEALs that extra few minutes to get over the compound before anyone on the ground quite knows what's going on," according to Jennings.
• Those five tail rotor blades are partially covered by a disk-like object that Jennings called a "hub-mounted vibration suppression system." He believes it provides more noise suppression and some possible protection for the tail rotor from bullets of shrapnel. And it's not typical on military helicopters. "No, I've never seen that on an operational helicopter before," Jennings said. But he added that a similar system was part of the Comanche helicopter design.
• The blades on that tail rotor also appear to be shorter and thinner than typical Black Hawk helicopter's blades. One former Army Black Hawk pilot, who asked not to be identified, said, "More blades and shorter blades means the helicopter would make less noise in flight."
It's not just the tail rotor blades that are different. "On the main rotor assembly that was actually destroyed by the SEAL team on the ground the blades themselves are threaded, which signify that these are carbon composite rotor blades as opposed to conventional metal rotor blades, which again signifies aspects of stealth technology that have been incorporated into this particular helicopter," Jennings said.
• Some photos show parts of the helicopter appear similar to non-secret stealth aircraft. "What's left of the tail section of that helicopter, the shape of the fuselage, it's canted. It's angled. It's a shape that's synonymous with fixed-wing stealth fighters such as the F-22, the F-35. Essentially, it's designed to defeat radar. If you eliminate right angles in an aircraft design, radar waves can't bounce back," Jennings said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/US/05/06/bi ... elicopter/

[NorStar2K]

Well as you ALL know by now (LOL) the TTAG AW139s (2 0f 4) are FINALLY here.

Tomorrow is the official commissioning. See article:

AW139 Commissioning

[hot blue]

were the original pics really mumford'd ?
wow
for those who didn't make it in time!

[pablo_tt]

Why are they not in the TTAG colours?

[mrtrini45]

were the original pics really mumford'd ?
wow
for those who didn't make it in time!

Real nice cant wait to see them Airborne

[NorStar2K]

Wait no longer. Look skyward peeps. N220YS is airborne.

[pablo_tt]

*grabs camera*

Let's see who can get pics first!

[mrtrini45]

*grabs camera*

Let's see who can get pics first!

Hey was waiting for you guys to post pics of 9Y-NCN but no one did so i feel i would have to post up some

[mrtrini45]

long Awaited 9Y NCN

[hot blue]

I must say... I like the hummingbird in the Roundel on the tail of the AW139. Nice touch!

[pablo_tt]

Is this the final paint scheme? Are they keeping the November reg?

[Type Rated]

They can't keep the N reg. my guess is it'd be same type of reg as the merlins. What would be more interesting would be the callsigns.

[pablo_tt]

More than likely "Air Guard" *shrugs*


nice pics of 9Y-NCN btw

[jm3]

sorry guys i dropped the ball with taht one ill get you something better than pics tomorow night

[mrtrini45]

sorry guys i dropped the ball with taht one ill get you something better than pics tomorow night

Pics

[sbmvv]

X-posting from the AW139 thread:

Thanks to all for the information and the photos - fantastic.

I am advised - won't say by whom - that the AW139s have come with provision for 2 GPMGs - one each side - and the the potential to carry FFAR pods.

I am trying to get an estimate on the helicopter strength of the country at present and would appreciate any corrections on the following:

former SAUTT : 2 Bo-105, 1 AS355 and 1 S-76C

TTAG: 2 AW139 plus 2 on order

NHSL: 4 Bo-105 and 4 S-76 (not sure of what models)

As I say, any corrections and input much appreciated.

[jm3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

[jm3]

i will do a better video of the avionics tomorow i ended up going to sort out a problem o another aircraft before i put external power on to show the efis and gps and stuff

[jm3]

X-posting from the AW139 thread:

Thanks to all for the information and the photos - fantastic.

I am advised - won't say by whom - that the AW139s have come with provision for 2 GPMGs - one each side - and the the potential to carry FFAR pods.

I am trying to get an estimate on the helicopter strength of the country at present and would appreciate any corrections on the following:

former SAUTT : 2 Bo-105, 1 AS355 and 1 S-76C

TTAG: 2 AW139 plus 2 on order

NHSL: 4 Bo-105 and 4 S-76 (not sure of what models)

As I say, any corrections and input much appreciated.

nhsl has 2 bo105's, 2 s76c++, 3 s76a++ and 2 s76a

[hot blue]

If you are counting ALL helis in Trinidad then you have to count Bristow Bell412's and I believe Briko still has the Twin Star

[NorStar2K]

Hey jm3, FYI, Capt. de Gannes (Dir. Flt. Ops.), as you know, doesn't approve of pix taken inside the NHSL hangar (whether you're staff or a offshore pax). He's going to trip when he hears about those. We are being 'watched' after all.

[sbmvv]

Ok, let's add the Bristow units - I think I saw 4 212s but I am unclear as to the fleet strength of Bristow.

Thanks for the NHSL figures - I take it the 2 SAUTT Bo-105s are ex-NHSL aircraft, including the one that had been previously painted blue ?

[mrtrini45]

Ok, let's add the Bristow units - I think I saw 4 212s but I am unclear as to the fleet strength of Bristow.

Thanks for the NHSL figures - I take it the 2 SAUTT Bo-105s are ex-NHSL aircraft, including the one that had been previously painted blue ?

The Blue and white one still flying high 9Y-TIC



9Y-TIC