question about Noah's ark.............

[MG Man]

there are many ancient documents that are proven fakes.

such as the bible

Well, how many of those people started off from such a lowly insignificant social position and changed the entire world to the extent that our modern western civilization has its basis upon the words he spoke. How many of those people were able to influence hundreds of millions of people to prefer to go to their deaths rather than deny him?
He only had a few followers during his lifetime but his life changed the world..

what percentage of the world is christian?
how many people were put to death or forced to become christians under threat of death?
how many people have died and suffered as a result of HIS presence and legacy 2000 years ago?

[d spike]

d spike, the reason I asked you for the source of the quote you used is because there are many ancient documents that are proven fakes. They were written at much later dates by people who were trying to contradict or discredit the Church. If you cannot prove the authenticity of your quote then your argument could be based on a lie.

Whenever you read a book it is important to check the bibliography for the source documents. Documents written 4 and 500 years after the birth of the Church cannot be authentic and many people quote such documents to deceive others into believing a false argument.

Wow! By golly, oi never thought o that! Who would believe such a thing!!! Lies, eh...

Listen laddie, I didn't start doing research into my beliefs 10 years ago, or get serious about it after a few weekends of listening to some fanatic ranting... I have been doing this for a lot longer, and as I told you already, am not interested in continuing this line of discussion with querulous youths who attempt arguments with non-christians and then base their arguments on the bible! Quote information that would be held as valid by both parties. You want to know where I got my information from? From doing years of research, carefully sifting fiction and non-fiction... Have fun looking... I couldn't care less at this point... Those that I have to teach, I teach as best as I can and they learn as best as they are able - and I had no right to get involved in such a discussion on such a forum.

[d spike]

what percentage of the world is christian?
how many people were put to death or forced to become christians under threat of death?
how many people have died and suffered as a result of HIS presence and legacy 2000 years ago?

You know that when it was decided to make christianity the national religion in Russia, entire villages were baptised at the point of the spear - literally, for the soldiers urged the people across a nearby river, while a priest performed the baptismal rite...

(waiting for some onk to respond to this post with "If true, then..."... or say that I read this in a text that was falsified...)

[d spike]

A global flood would have produced evidence contrary to the evidence we see.

How do you explain the relative ages of mountains? For example, why weren't the Sierra Nevadas eroded as much as the Appalachians during the Flood?

Why is there no evidence of a flood in ice core series? Ice cores from Greenland have been dated back more than 40,000 years by counting annual layers. A worldwide flood would be expected to leave a layer of sediments, noticeable changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios, fractures from buoyancy and thermal stresses, a hiatus in trapped air bubbles, and probably other evidence. Why doesn't such evidence show up?

How are the polar ice caps even possible? Such a mass of water as the Flood would have provided sufficient buoyancy to float the polar caps off their beds and break them up. They wouldn't regrow quickly. In fact, the Greenland ice cap would not regrow under modern (last 10000 years) climatic conditions.

Why did the Flood not leave traces on the sea floors? A year long flood should be recognizable in sea bottom cores by

(1) an uncharacteristic amount of terrestrial detritus,
(2) different grain size distributions in the sediment,
(3) a shift in oxygen isotope ratios (rain has a different isotopic composition from seawater),
(4) a massive extinction, and (n) other characters.

Why do none of these show up?

Why is there no evidence of a flood in tree ring dating? Tree ring records go back more than 10,000 years, with no evidence of a catastrophe during that time.

[djaggs]

there are many ancient documents that are proven fakes.

such as the bible



what percentage of the world is christian?
how many people were put to death or forced to become christians under threat of death?
how many people have died and suffered as a result of HIS presence and legacy 2000 years ago?

To answer your first statement, bring your evidence that the bible is fake and we will disuss it. To answer your other questions....




This is an estimate of the amount of Christians killed for their faith.

 Christian martyrs: 70M
 20th Century: 45.4M
 At the hands of...
 Atheists: 31,689,000
 Muslims 9,121,000
 Ethnoreligionists: 7,469,000
 Christians: 5,538,000
 Quasi-religionists 2,712,000
 Mahayana Buddhists: 1,651,000
 Hindus: 676,000
 Zoroastrians: 384,000
 Martyrdom at Soviet hands:
 1921-50: 15M Christians in prison camps
 1950-80: 5M Christians in prison camps
 Orthodox: 14.5M k. by Stalin, 2.7M of them martyrs (1929-37)
 Roman Catholics (1925): 1.2M martyrs
 By Mongols
 1214: Genghiz Khan massacres 6M Christians: 4M martyrs
 1214: Diocese of Herat sacked by Genghiz Khan: 1M
 1258: massacre in Baghdad by Hulaku Khan: 1.1M
 1358: Tamerlane destroys 15-million-strong Nestorians: 4M martyrs
• The Ottawa Citizen (20 Dec. 1998)
o 15M Christians d. in Soviet prison camps because of their faith.
o citing Paul Marshall, Their Blood Cries Out
 ca. 400,000 Chinese Christians died during the Cultural Revolution.
 ca. 100,000 Christians k by Idi Amin (out of 300,000 total k.)
 Up to 500,000 Rwandan Christians died as witnesses to their faith (out of 700,000 total k.) (1994)


Well the first time people were forced to covert to Christianity under threat of death was around 300 to 350 ad when Constantine emperor of Rome made Christianity the official religion of Rome. This practice of forced conversion was not a legacy of Jesus, nor is there any scriptural support for forced conversion. It was more a political decision rather than a spiritual one. The end result was the assimilation of many unregenerate followers into the Church. An unregenerate follower is someone who has not experienced the spiritual conversion of the Holy Spirit and is thus a carnal Christian, not led by the Spirit of God but his or her carnal self ( Romans 8:13-15 ).

In order to pacify these forced converts he allowed them to continue some of their pagan customs which were assimilated into the Church, just to keep them happy. These forced conversions and the politically expedient decisions made by Constantine was the start of the downfall of the Church. It became a Church filled with Carnal leaders which you can see by looking at some of the excesses practiced by some of the Bishops and Popes coming down thru the ages from Constantine. Forced conversion is not Christian doctrine and was never taught by Jesus nor any of his followers. Even the look of the Church changed. It went from being small groups of people meeting informally in homes to big religious organizations meeting in huge grandiose palace like cathedrals. A very far cry from the Church planted by the Apostles that met in the upper room. Constantine spent lots of money building a Church that was in his eyes fit for a king, himself.

The bible foretells this event in

Thessalonians II 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Jesus never intended the Church to be led by carnal men but the result is the excesses you see in history. The falling away from the truth of the Gospel. However, over the centuries God has raised up reformers at various times to restore the Church to its original intent and purpose.

The most common excess cited by detractors is the crusades. The crusades were Europe’s response to its invasion by foreign moslem hordes. It was not a religious war in the sense that it was spiritually motivated. Briniging God into it was meant to motivate the soldiers to fight who were also promised great financial rewards by the Church if they went to war. Land and wealth. However, if you look at the amount of people killed during the crusades it is a lot less than the amount of Christians martyred for their faith. I can post statistics to illustrate if you wish.

The actions of carnal men who corrupted the Church is not the legacy that Jesus has left, if you want to see His legacy you need only to read his words….this is His legacy….

Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

[MG Man]

Jesus never intended the Church to be led by carnal men but the result is the excesses you see in history. .[/i]

christianity is man made, just like all religions
all religious books can be used to corrupt
every line every verse is a double edged sword that can be twisted to suit man's need for social control
this god you speak of is one sick bastard, writing a book full of riddles, contradictions and vagaries that can be used for so much evil..........but we digress.....this is about the logistics of filling a wooden boat with animals for a 40 day cruise.......

[RBphoto]

djaggs, Dem figures for the hindus include drunken injuns in 120y trying to jiff rong ah canefield dirt road corner and bunxin dong the christian cell phone camera man who ketch everything on flims?

[djaggs]

djaggs, Dem figures for the hindus include drunken injuns in 120y trying to jiff rong ah canefield dirt road corner and bunxin dong the christian cell phone camera man who ketch everything on flims?

LOL, Nah.

[d spike]

To answer your first statement, bring your evidence that the bible is fake and we will disuss it.

Wait, wait, wait... in order for a discussion to be rational, logic must be used. If you cannot remain rational or fair, then your argument carries no weight.
(This is why I should not get involved in these sort of discussions on the internet... I always demand these archaic things like logic and reason...)

How come when you maintain an item as truth, others who disagree must prove it false, yet when I maintain a similar stance, I have to prove that it is true... What sort of imbalanced rationale is this? Fairplay, laddie...

[Chimera]

[devrat]

[d spike]

From my understanding, and as far as i know, ancient writings, the early Christians were persecuted because they refused to bow down to Caesar.
When the apostle says,.....That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
again this was confrontational doctrine. These letters were being read to the Church all over Rome.
When Christians prayed and declared "in the name of Jesus" this was an affront to Caesar...
Try and remember when you read St. Paul's letters and other early Christian writings, that the early Christians fully expected Jesus to return in their lifetime. (Don't take my word for it, go and study - formally - this era under some scriptural historian, preferably belonging to whatever religion you follow.) Due to this concept, their idea of Christ's Kingdom was more "worldly" than our own. The main world power at the time was the Roman Empire, so Jesus' Kingdom obviously was going to supplant the Romans. With that in mind, "We is on de winnin' side!" would have been a fairly common mindset among the younger, more vociferous ones, who weren't quite clear on the entire concept, and this obviously was projected in their attitude towards the authority - sounds familiar? The more things change, the more they stay the same...

influential people in the society like priests, sought to persecute the Christians because they were losing followers and were turning them away from their religious traditions.
Quite right. But as in all civilised societies, one required assent from the authorities before one took action on a large scale. The fact that Christians met quietly, and thus gave themselves the reputation of having a "secretive" nature, didn't help much (there were quite a few secret cults at the time, so obviously, being secretive wasn't seen as a problem in itself) and gave their detractors more ammunition. Life for the early Christians was actually rather peaceful between the persecutions which were directed by an Emperor.

Early Christians were actually despised by those in society, they were looked down upon because they were ususually poor and considered social outcasts.... Well, who do you think would be mainly attracted by a new religion that claims equality, love and fairness for all? Slaves and servants? Or the wealthy people who became and remained wealthy due to the system of a classed society which required slaves to support it? So much in life is common sense - but common sense ain't that common any more...


Do not make the mistake of taking what is palmed off as Christianity today as a reflection of what it was originally when it was first planted by the Apostles.
If Paul saw the Church today he would not recognise it and would probably cry.
...So when Christ said, "Upon this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall never prevail against it..." he was: a) mistaken; b) lying; c) basing his concept on falsified documents?

As I had to tell someone else earlier in this same thread, you are on the right track, but you need to study more of the early Church's history with a side-helping of theology (especially studying what the early Christians believed). Knowing what the Bible says is all well and good, but as far as the history of the time of the apostles, it contains very little and can't be used for an in-depth study of the times, or the mind-set of the people of those times.

[MG Man]

[d spike]

this god you speak of is one sick bastard
No he isn't... he is a kind, loving god who smites the evil, stomps on the heartless, and strikes down the unbeliever, and is viewed by his followers in fear and trembling, especially since he flooded the world, drowning everyone, and has promised to destroy his creation with fire nex' rounds. Because of his all-encompassing love for me, I be going to heaven - whether he likes it or not. Beam me up, Jesus!

writing a book full of riddles, contradictions and vagaries that can be used for so much evil
No he didn't... he told some fellahs what to write...and they each wrote what they thought he meant, ignoring what was written before sometimes... kinda like when you ask a fellah to build arched windows and he does you know what... so you live with it and refuse to discuss it...

..........but we digress.....this is about the logistics of filling a wooden boat with animals for a 40 day cruise.......
Sorry boss, will stop farting around in this thread too...

Since we're talking about the logistics of filling a wooden boat with animals for an ocean trip, here are some excerpts that are taken from translations done in 1862, from clay tablets with cuneiform writing. These tablets and their script are at least 1300 years older than Homer’s Odyssey. They were uncovered in 1845 when the library of Ashurbanipal (the last great king of Assyria, 668-627 B.C.) was found. Scholars believe that these stories were part of an oral tradition that was then written down in about 2100 B.C.
While the stories are about the hero-king Gilgamesh, I am focusing on the part that concerns the topic of the Flood, which is probably the specific, catastrophic flood that occurred in southern Mesopotamia in approximately 2900 B.C. that MG Man referred to in an earlier post, and the King of Shuruppak, Utanapishtim, who built a large ark to survive the flood.

Utanapishtim tells Gilgamesh about the great flood: “You are familiar with the city of Shuruppak, on the banks of the Euphrates. When both the city itself and the gods within it were already old, the gods decided to bring forth a great flood. Enlil, ruler of all the gods, called them together in assembly.
“The people who live upon the broad earth have become numerous beyond count, and they are too noisy,â€

[MG Man]

u still want dem mirrors fadda?

[Chimera]

even the mmorpg's getting in on it yes

Or they just mocking?

[d spike]

u still want dem mirrors fadda?

Yeth pleathse...

Yuh ha' dem pappi? Pass fuh it? Ah ha' tuh shave mih leg?

[wagonrunner]

u still want dem mirrors fadda?

Yeth pleathse...

Yuh ha' dem pappi? Pass fuh it? Ah ha' tuh shave mih leg?

umm yes please.
There seems to be a team of scientists following up on vague reports of a Yeti population / descendants in the Caribbean.
Confused how a normally cold-climate loving creature made it here, and flourished, even successfully breeding. They are utilizing a sizable portion of their budget in these harsh economic times.
The worse seems yet to come though, as the trail led to them to believe that said YETI pilots a red VIVA, throwing into even further, theories on it's assimilation into "normal" society.

So please, for the love of our nation's reputation, perform the highlighted, and throw off the trail.

[d spike]

u still want dem mirrors fadda?

Yeth pleathse...

Yuh ha' dem pappi? Pass fuh it? Ah ha' tuh shave mih leg?

umm yes please.
There seems to be a team of scientists following up on vague reports of a Yeti population / descendants in the Caribbean.
Confused how a normally cold-climate loving creature made it here, and flourished, even successfully breeding. They are utilizing a sizable portion of their budget in these harsh economic times.
The worse seems yet to come though, as the trail led to them to believe that said YETI pilots a red VIVA, throwing into even further, theories on it's assimilation into "normal" society.

So please, for the love of our nation's reputation, perform the highlighted, and throw off the trail.

Soooo, yuh been watchin' mih leg, eh? Nastyman!!! Yuh see how I does ketch allyuh? Little duttyness...

[wagonrunner]

Soooo, yuh been watchin' mih leg, eh? Nastyman!!! Yuh see how I does ketch allyuh? Little duttyness...

Is my emotions yuh toying with.............. always have something to tell MgMan............ don't feel i don't see.
hadda keep an eye on allyuh so.

[MG Man]

jealousy will get u everywhere

[d spike]

jealousy does not become you, WR!

[d spike]

(taking a break from Babylonian writings... here's a taste of Cockney (as best as I could remember it)...

One evening while Noah was putting green oil in the starboard-side lamp
His wife came up and said, “Noah! Summats wrong. Yon cabin is getting quite damp.â€

[MG Man]

[TRAE]

How dare you question religion, it was written in a book dammit

not questioning, just asking about the mechanics of the thing.....religions generally urge people to inquire and seek truth yadda yadda

Modern Man cant explain Pyramids properly yet...but either way you gotta believe in something or be like the ones outside laying on the pavement, brains all over their mother's blouse...

[RBphoto]

TRAE, Thanks for making no sense whatsoever.

[MG Man]

How dare you question religion, it was written in a book dammit

not questioning, just asking about the mechanics of the thing.....religions generally urge people to inquire and seek truth yadda yadda

Modern Man cant explain Pyramids properly yet...but either way you gotta believe in something or be like the ones outside laying on the pavement, brains all over their mother's blouse...

really? ego inflated ruler breaks the empire's bank to build big stone crypt using thousands of labourers over a period of two decades..... no rocket science there
basic tools, inclinde ramps made of sand, lots of blood and sweat.....

[devrat]

How dare you question religion, it was written in a book dammit

not questioning, just asking about the mechanics of the thing.....religions generally urge people to inquire and seek truth yadda yadda

Modern Man cant explain Pyramids properly yet...but either way you gotta believe in something or be like the ones outside laying on the pavement, brains all over their mother's blouse...

really? ego inflated ruler breaks the empire's bank to build big stone crypt using thousands of labourers over a period of two decades..... no rocket science there
basic tools, inclinde ramps made of sand, lots of blood and sweat.....

but ent the aliens helped...they had a stargate after all

[MG Man]

How dare you question religion, it was written in a book dammit

not questioning, just asking about the mechanics of the thing.....religions generally urge people to inquire and seek truth yadda yadda

Modern Man cant explain Pyramids properly yet...but either way you gotta believe in something or be like the ones outside laying on the pavement, brains all over their mother's blouse...

really? ego inflated ruler breaks the empire's bank to build big stone crypt using thousands of labourers over a period of two decades..... no rocket science there
basic tools, inclinde ramps made of sand, lots of blood and sweat.....

but ent the aliens helped...they had a stargate after all

the aliens showed the pharoah how to use mass mind control to get workers and convince the high priests who were skeptical.....
seriously tho, the pyramids are nothing more than examples of egocentricity at its best.....build monuments to ME and my greatness while simultaneously destroying the economy.....sound familiar?

[devrat]

^^^history continues to repeat itself