Government achievement thread (PNM EDITION 2015-2025)

[Redman]

So you can't say why a simple majority is a dictatorial move.

Just fits your personal narrative,because the PNM doing it.

Of course simple majorities were written into the constitution for a reason. SM have been used this far without the world coming to an end.The UNC used it for the election run off bill,but of course that was not dictatorial.cuz is your people that do it.

Must be a simplistic life to render a qualitative judgement on something you are yet to have any information on.

Still a little emo there pal.

[Redman]

The PNM do it?
Dragon ent you does blaze the PNM when they blame UNC?

Hypocritical sycophant much?

[drchaos]

Allu realize we F#(Ked in 10 years when all these bonds the Government issued mature ...

Well we had no choice. Reccurent expenditure was towering for years without an alternative revenue stream. If the government had engaged in mass layoffs to bring the expenditure down, it could have resulted in an economic shock which is what occurred when bauxite prices collapsed in Jamaica and Guyana in the 70s

One extreme to another ... You do know that there is a middle ground?

[eliteauto]

Allu realize we F#(Ked in 10 years when all these bonds the Government issued mature ...

Well we had no choice. Reccurent expenditure was towering for years without an alternative revenue stream. If the government had engaged in mass layoffs to bring the expenditure down, it could have resulted in an economic shock which is what occurred when bauxite prices collapsed in Jamaica and Guyana in the 70s

One extreme to another ... You do know that there is a middle ground?

Gov't bonds aren't an extreme tbh, they aren't new either, bonds are a good way to mop up liquidity esp now as there aren't that many capital projects to attract investment hence their all being over-subscribed. As for their maturity and us being screwed that's predicated on an assumption of economic stagnation over the next decade, that's highly unlikely

[Trinispougla]

Allu realize we F#(Ked in 10 years when all these bonds the Government issued mature ...

Well we had no choice. Reccurent expenditure was towering for years without an alternative revenue stream. If the government had engaged in mass layoffs to bring the expenditure down, it could have resulted in an economic shock which is what occurred when bauxite prices collapsed in Jamaica and Guyana in the 70s

One extreme to another ... You do know that there is a middle ground?

Gov't bonds aren't an extreme tbh, they aren't new either, bonds are a good way to mop up liquidity esp now as there aren't that many capital projects to attract investment hence their all being over-subscribed. As for their maturity and us being screwed that's predicated on an assumption of economic stagnation over the next decade, that's highly unlikely

Exactly. Why do you think international loaning and developmental agencies are trying to work with the country? Agencies such as the IDB(who I have heard some 2ners say is a body solar to the IMF). These agencies operate on the proviso that at some point in time, you would be able to pay back the loans or the bond or else they would not enter into the agreement with you in the first place. E.g Citibank will never engage in a bond with Haiti because realistically, they would not be able to pay up in the stipulated time.

[Trinispougla]

Allu realize we F#(Ked in 10 years when all these bonds the Government issued mature ...

Well we had no choice. Reccurent expenditure was towering for years without an alternative revenue stream. If the government had engaged in mass layoffs to bring the expenditure down, it could have resulted in an economic shock which is what occurred when bauxite prices collapsed in Jamaica and Guyana in the 70s

One extreme to another ... You do know that there is a middle ground?

Drchaos I mentioned those two countries because they suffered similar crashes in commodity prices. I didn't just pull them out of the air. Your views are extreme and not based on any data or noted projection

[drchaos]

Listening to Trinipougla one would think T&T could not get by with a sub 60 Billion dollar budget.

There is a reason why our Credit rating is falling like a rock now, because our government continues to borrow at an unsustainable level.
As the international market continues more and more to view our ability to pay back as less and less of a chance you have to be smoking some real high grade to defend this kind of fiscal behavior.

Borrowing and borrowing is a unsustainable while borrowing and making a serious dent in wastage, increasing fiscal responsibility and efficiency and cutting spending to levels that we can maintain and possibly pay back makes it more likely that we can pay back our debts and we dont have to dig out we eye when "the man" comes to collect.

Every economic situation is unique and for you to treat T&T as a text book case like Jamaica and Guyana shows you only know how to read and regurgitate projections from countries that had vastly different economies from a vastly different time (46 years ago) and different world economy.

Lastly not all commodities are the same and the economies that are dependent on different commodities are therefore very different.

This will probably fly over your head as "extreme" due to the amount of lead in your brain, you should try some chelation my friend it may help.

[Trinispougla]

Listening to Trinipougla one would think T&T could not get by with a sub 60 Billion dollar budget.

There is a reason why our Credit rating is falling like a rock now, because our government continues to borrow at an unsustainable level.
As the international market continues more and more to view our ability to pay back as less and less of a chance you have to be smoking some real high grade to defend this kind of fiscal behavior.

Borrowing and borrowing is a unsustainable while borrowing and making a serious dent in wastage, increasing fiscal responsibility and efficiency and cutting spending to levels that we can maintain and possibly pay back makes it more likely that we can pay back our debts and we dont have to dig out we eye when "the man" comes to collect.

Every economic situation is unique and for you to treat T&T as a text book case like Jamaica and Guyana shows you only know how to read and regurgitate projections from countries that had vastly different economies from a vastly different time (46 years ago) and different world economy.

Lastly not all commodities are the same and the economies that are dependent on different commodities are therefore very different.

This will probably fly over your head as "extreme" due to the amount of lead in your brain, you should try some chelation my friend it may help.

Firstly. There was no need to get personal. Secondly, if the government had really done what the imf and world bank wanted, all economists and analysts admit the budget(which is currently at 53billion) would be something like 47 billion. That would induce an economic shock. It would even mean a portion, and a sizable portion at that of the permanent work force would have to be sent home. The government,even if they don't care about people in the country realistically cannot do that because a cut like that could crash the economy.
Thirdly, any country that undergoes a drop in commodity prices can be compared. Before 1974,Jamaica was by far, the richest Caribbean country. Our rise not only has to do with increased oil prices and a newly built industrial estate but because bauxite, JAMAICA'S chief export had undergone a precipitous decline in its selling price. If that not similar to TT them you really need to study economics and if you did, then whatever university you studied at needs to be asked some serious questions.
Extreme and downright dotish is you thinking that oil prices going to be at 53 dpi in ten years time. You can't say that from now.
Borrowing is unsustainable but as I said, we have no choice. The fiscal balance should reach by 2020 or 2021. That is what both the current Minister of finance and the last one expected. You really must be insane if you expect TT to borrow for ten years
Trinidad is already running on a sub60b dollar budget, it's running on a 53 billion. Last year it was a 60billion dollar budget and was cut to 52billion dollars in the mid year. This year it is 53 billion. If GORTT really allowed the populace to feel the full effect of the recession, it would be something like 47/46 billion. Imagine a six or seven billion dollar cut in spending. That means mass job cuts bro. Guaranteed to send the economy into shock, which is what ironically Jamaica did in response to their crisis in the 70s.
Also drchaos, you do know that TT has engaged in deficits budgeting for the last seven years right? Which means that it covers a period where TT didn't need to borrow, where oil prices were well over 180 dollars per barrel and gas was 10-fifteen dollars per btu

[Redman]

Oil peaked at 180?
When and where?

[Trinispougla]

Oil peaked at 180?
When and where?

My bad, it was really 112 dollars per barrel, still exponentially higher than the current price. The highehighest ever paid was 136 dollars per barrel. 2008. And we'll this is of course the end of year value

[Trinispougla]

Oil peaked at 180?
When and where?

My bad, it was really 112 dollars per barrel, still exponentially higher than the current price. The highehighest ever paid was 136 dollars per barrel. 2008. And we'll this is of course the end of year value. In 2011, oil prices has recovered from the lows of the financial crisis of mid 2008. I think the peak value then somewhere above 112. The import of what I was saying is that you don't need to borrow on a 100 dollar oil price. If it is hovering above 50 then that is a totally different story

[De Dragon]

So you can't say why a simple majority is a dictatorial move.

Just fits your personal narrative,because the PNM doing it.

Of course simple majorities were written into the constitution for a reason. SM have been used this far without the world coming to an end.The UNC used it for the election run off bill,but of course that was not dictatorial.cuz is your people that do it.

Must be a simplistic life to render a qualitative judgement on something you are yet to have any information on.

Still a little emo there pal.

Now you're just playing (?) dotish. Simple majorities have their purpose, just like three-fifths majorities have their purpose and are usually attached to far-reaching, citizens' rights affecting legislation. To actually craft legislation that normally requires the three-fifths majority into one requiring a simple majority, is deceitful, tyrannical and dictatorial. It also shows a callous disregard for the majority of people who didn't vote PNM, and who rely on their elected representatives to protect them from just this type of steam rolling of their rights. If Lie-Wari, Scarfy and crew don't have the charisma, negotiation skills or the ability to craft proper legislation then don't expect blind support in Parliament.

[Redman]

How you know what the legislation requires?
You have seen it?.

All legislation is crafted based on what is the minimum requirement to pass.

It's obvious that any legislation that qualifies to be passed with a SM, will be limited in its impact on the constitutional rights of the population.

How is it tyrannical etc if:
It's within the rules and will be challenged in the courts if necessary
The legislation will be debated and aired.
You haven't seen anything to render any opinion.

Name 5 rights that will be infringed by the coming legislation.

Thx.

[drchaos]

Man calling fact to his opinion that 5 billion less in the budget will cause economic collapse ... don't smoke crack kids, just look at what it did to Trinipougla.

[Trinispougla]

Man calling fact to his opinion that 5 billion less in the budget will cause economic collapse ... don't smoke crack kids, just look at what it did to Trinipougla.

People in ministries getting went home left right and centre Breda. The mid year review last year was actually lower by about 1.3 billion dollars than the actual budget this year. The amount of persons sent home from ministries and units shut down was very high. In finance at least three or four units were temporarily on hold,nice phrase for shut down. And the 50billion dollar threshold usually keeps the workforce ticking. You do realize Trinidad had its worst economic performance in 33 years last year right? T&Tec cutting like crazy and the ministries were cutting before them. The budget in 2015 was cut by 11 billion dollars and look at the fallout. Imagine 6-7 billion more.

[Trinispougla]

Drchaos I know you feel is 5 dollars we dealing with here eh but 5 billion dollars is a significant amount. The budget raised from 52 billion to 53.3 billion. But not forgetting the 11 billion dollar cut in mid 2016, the budgets have really been cut by 9.7 billion, you are suggesting a further 5 billion dollar cut. That is a 14.7 billion dollar reduction. If that isn't major well......

[dude2014]

Allu realize we F#(Ked in 10 years when all these bonds the Government issued mature ...

Well we had no choice. Reccurent expenditure was towering for years without an alternative revenue stream. If the government had engaged in mass layoffs to bring the expenditure down, it could have resulted in an economic shock which is what occurred when bauxite prices collapsed in Jamaica and Guyana in the 70s

One extreme to another ... You do know that there is a middle ground?

There is an alternative revenue stream. People have to get to work early, so eight hours pay for one hour pay cannot be sustained. Imagine a days work at $200.00/day is currently $200.00/hour.

Money saved is money earned.

Get those Caroni Two acre holders off those land and set up proper operations to produce store and package food on a large scale. Global/Universal Good Agricultural Practises (v) cannot be achieved on two acres with a latrine/toilet every two hundred feet.

For those who do not like the plan, well here is something to think about:
Buying Lettuce, patchoi wetted with water that has a high coliform bacillus count.
Or if you prefer eddoes, sweet potatoes irrigated with contaminated water with the presence of heavy metals like lead, etc.

Anyway the topic is about what the Government has achieved. Inherent is the opportunity to start on the things they have not achieved, hence the rant on Alternative Revenue and food safety.

[De Dragon]

How you know what the legislation requires?
You have seen it?.

All legislation is crafted based on what is the minimum requirement to pass.

It's obvious that any legislation that qualifies to be passed with a SM, will be limited in its impact on the constitutional rights of the population.

How is it tyrannical etc if:
It's within the rules and will be challenged in the courts if necessary
The legislation will be debated and aired.
You haven't seen anything to render any opinion.

Name 5 rights that will be infringed by the coming legislation.

Thx.

Yes and the courts in Trinidad and Tobago are models of speed and efficiency Meanwhile, we suffer under poorly written, self serving and possibly draconian laws until 10-15 years later, the Privy Council shoots it down. Contrary to what your are trying to regurgitate from your beloved AG, we have a right to respect for our privacy, forget non-starter arguments about US citizens alone. The PNM has a history of abusing legitimate avenues of monitoring potential criminal activities. Remember the spying SAUTT?

[Trinispougla]

Allu realize we F#(Ked in 10 years when all these bonds the Government issued mature ...

Well we had no choice. Reccurent expenditure was towering for years without an alternative revenue stream. If the government had engaged in mass layoffs to bring the expenditure down, it could have resulted in an economic shock which is what occurred when bauxite prices collapsed in Jamaica and Guyana in the 70s

One extreme to another ... You do know that there is a middle ground?

There is an alternative revenue stream. People have to get to work early, so eight hours pay for one hour pay cannot be sustained. Imagine a days work at $200.00/day is currently $200.00/hour.

Money saved is money earned.

Get those Caroni Two acre holders off those land and set up proper operations to produce store and package food on a large scale. Global/Universal Good Agricultural Practises (v) cannot be achieved on two acres with a latrine/toilet every two hundred feet.

For those who do not like the plan, well here is something to think about:
Buying Lettuce, patchoi wetted with water that has a high coliform bacillus count.
Or if you prefer eddoes, sweet potatoes irrigated with contaminated water with the presence of heavy metals like lead, etc.

Anyway the topic is about what the Government has achieved. Inherent is the opportunity to start on the things they have not achieved, hence the rant on Alternative Revenue and food safety.

Actually me and another infamous 2ner who has several threads dedicated to him/her has an argument about this some time last year. I agree with you totally. But if/when we make a serious agricultural push, we'll have to tackle both the workforce issue and the fact that we have an issue with production. MOA have some serious issues. If you look at the data, agriculture has been steadily falling since the 1940s when Dr Williams have a lecture at Howard University on the economic future of the Caribbean. Even Caroni 1975 was kept open because European governments had a arrangement to buy their former colonies produce at preferential rates to us as a kind of pseudo-apology for the wrongs they had done. St Vincent and all the other islands were recipients of this action. It ended with the Lome convention and that resulted in a vincention crisis and the closure of Caroni 1975. The closing process was started by one government and finished by the other. It could work but Ministry of Agriculture don't even access uwi resources to try and increase yield (listen to the jsc in mid january) because they don't give them grants unlike another international body, the name slips me now, who gives them grants. But I'm fully in support of increasing local production of food. 6 billion dollars in food imports is ridiculous

[Redman]

How you know what the legislation requires?
You have seen it?.

All legislation is crafted based on what is the minimum requirement to pass.

It's obvious that any legislation that qualifies to be passed with a SM, will be limited in its impact on the constitutional rights of the population.

How is it tyrannical etc if:
It's within the rules and will be challenged in the courts if necessary
The legislation will be debated and aired.
You haven't seen anything to render any opinion.

Name 5 rights that will be infringed by the coming legislation.

Thx.

Yes and the courts in Trinidad and Tobago are models of speed and efficiency Meanwhile, we suffer under poorly written, self serving and possibly draconian laws until 10-15 years later, the Privy Council shoots it down. Contrary to what your are trying to regurgitate from your beloved AG, we have a right to respect for our privacy, forget non-starter arguments about US citizens alone. The PNM has a history of abusing legitimate avenues of monitoring potential criminal activities. Remember the spying SAUTT?

but this is not SAUTT is it?

I think I will stop following your goal posts.

so you cant answer any of those questions as to:
A)what you upset about,
B)why you upset about it,
C) how it will impact anybody.

According to you, this PNM cant blame the UNC for their legacy but you happy to judge the PNM on what happened pre 2010.

So it boils down to you making noise over something you eh know nutting bout and your discomfort is based on nothing but your demonstrated emotional attachment to PNM bashing.

Thank you for clarifying.
Carry on.

[drchaos]

Boy Pougla I hear what you saying but there is still a ton of wastage in government spending that needs to be tackled. I agree with you that they have reduced the budget but I think they can do more and borrow less.

Sorry I was taking out my frustrations on you! I just wah meh back pay now

[De Dragon]

How you know what the legislation requires?
You have seen it?.

All legislation is crafted based on what is the minimum requirement to pass.

It's obvious that any legislation that qualifies to be passed with a SM, will be limited in its impact on the constitutional rights of the population.

How is it tyrannical etc if:
It's within the rules and will be challenged in the courts if necessary
The legislation will be debated and aired.
You haven't seen anything to render any opinion.

Name 5 rights that will be infringed by the coming legislation.

Thx.

Yes and the courts in Trinidad and Tobago are models of speed and efficiency Meanwhile, we suffer under poorly written, self serving and possibly draconian laws until 10-15 years later, the Privy Council shoots it down. Contrary to what your are trying to regurgitate from your beloved AG, we have a right to respect for our privacy, forget non-starter arguments about US citizens alone. The PNM has a history of abusing legitimate avenues of monitoring potential criminal activities. Remember the spying SAUTT?

but this is not SAUTT is it?

I think I will stop following your goal posts.

so you cant answer any of those questions as to:
A)what you upset about,
B)why you upset about it,
C) how it will impact anybody.

According to you, this PNM cant blame the UNC for their legacy but you happy to judge the PNM on what happened pre 2010.

So it boils down to you making noise over something you eh know nutting bout and your discomfort is based on nothing but your demonstrated emotional attachment to PNM bashing.

Thank you for clarifying.
Carry on.

Yes the penis in your anus always slides in easier when its your friends'. You are the most hypocritical, brainwashed, and ignorant of all the PNM stooges here on 2NR. Even some of the other hardened PNM apologists have long abandoned hope for this useless and incompetent excuse for a Government, and no longer defend, or even comment anymore. Yet here you are, trying to make an excuse for what is a bare faced attempt to sidestep the lawful, Constitutionally guaranteed rights of people by a lame arse AG, the point man for an equally lame arse PM and entire PNM Government.
All the plastic bags in the word cannot contain the sheit from you and your party so you carry on, in your unbridled admiration for the loss of your rights and liberty.

[Redman]

I guess we can all give way to your obvious first hand knowledge on your anus' reaction to penis....at least on that you seem experienced.

Always happy when you clarify where your head is....
In the pillow...
Talk you forgot to answer ANY of the questions specifying your concerns.

I guess yuh mind was on something else.

[De Dragon]

I guess we can all give way to your obvious first hand knowledge on your anus' reaction to penis....at least on that you seem experienced.

Always happy when you clarify where your head is.

Form 3 level comeback . Nice, it fits right in with your level of intelligence and discourse, when discussing your beloved an infallible PNM

[Redman]

you was talking about penis in your anus since form 3?..?

Ok.

[De Dragon]

you was talking about penis in your anus since form 3?..?

Ok.

I misspoke, you're definitely Form 2 level.

[sMASH]

u keep laying resources and power onto politicians, and trust that they will make the right decision. then u get surprised and upset when they thief the money. then u give them more money and more power, then get more surprised when they theif more money.

u are stupid to leave them to regulate themselves.
properly, u should have checks to ensure that they cannot abuse the authority, and balances to have some measure of redress when they do transgress.

the 3/5 majority is one such check. so leave it so.

stop having confidence in people, develop a proper system, and then it wouldn't be necessary to have people

[drchaos]

sMASH is ah boss!

[De Dragon]

u keep laying resources and power onto politicians, and trust that they will make the right decision. then u get surprised and upset when they thief the money. then u give them more money and more power, then get more surprised when they theif more money.

u are stupid to leave them to regulate themselves.
properly, u should have checks to ensure that they cannot abuse the authority, and balances to have some measure of redress when they do transgress.

the 3/5 majority is one such check. so leave it so.

stop having confidence in people, develop a proper system, and then it wouldn't be necessary to have people

Nah boy SMASHos, de PNM is pure of heart and mind, dem go never do dat!

[Redman]

you was talking about penis in your anus since form 3?..?

Ok.

I misspoke, you're definitely Form 2 level.

You're the one that can't specifically say what the issue is.Yet you are angry
You're the one hurling personal insults..instead of providing details.
It is You that introduced your sexual preference into the conversation.

But I'm the juvenile one.

So tell me...I will ask again...having no idea what they ACTUALLY legislation will be ....how do you know you will not support it?