The Religion Discussion

[MG Man]

shine bright like a diamond

[Habit7]

No matter what you are quoting and where you quote from, the scripture is always clearly manipulated, either in the text as you state it or in the meaning that you derive from it.

Muhammed said:
"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel (7:157)

And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them (2:89)

Muhammed spoke to the Jews and Christians to confirm what he was saying about the biblical books (Torah, Psalms and Gospels) are true. He believed that they were from Allah and were not altered. We have those biblical books from then, we also those same biblical books that predate that era for more than 400 years.
They are the same books then, the same when Muhammad referenced them, they are the same today, they have not changed.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/NIV/300_changes.htm

........ It shows where at least 300 changes were made from the original text over the years.

Welcome to King James Onlyism, people who believe that the King James Bible is as inspired as the original Hebrew and Greek text You endorse Yusuf Ali's translation of the Quran, how would you feel if a bunch of Muslims believed that Yusuf Ali translations are just as inspired as the Arabic Quran?

You are getting caught up with the different translations of the Bible and acting like there are not different translations of the Quran: http://al-quran.info/page/language/english

I dont know if you speak any other language than English but if you were to ask 5 Spanish speakers to translate our national anthem you will get 5 different versions in Spanish.

Changes in translations or multiplicity of translations does not affect the truth of the original text. You dont allow it for the Quran, why allow it for the Bible. I was able to show you in that in Surah 3:54 "Allah is the best of deceivers". Some translators would agree with me some wont, but by your reasoning, because there is ambiguity, does it mean that the Quran has been changed?

Just like I told AdamB, I am telling you, bring proof of your Islamic Bible which showed that the Torah, Psalms and Gospels confirming the Quran. Until then your argument from silence is incredulous.



BTW, Here are quotations from Muslims about the corruption of the original text of the Quran:

[AdamB]

holy crap i've lost track of who's who in this thread. adamb still around?

Still around but not active on this thread. I have more important things to do with my time, personally and for the benefit of mankind.

Mad ppl (eg. rocknrolla) and blinded christians (eg. Habit7) run amock on the thread now. I have done my duty which is:

1. to warn about disbelief and polytheism, exceeding the limits set by GOD Almighty.

2. to show the way to worship GOD Almighty in the manner that HE has prescribed, the way that leads to everlasting life in the Hereafter....for those who choose to believe.

BTW goalpost, I don't recall posts or discussions with you while I was active on the thread.

[AdamB]

prolly lurking somewhere
I wonder what he'd say, knowing my bible app and my qur'an app are living side by side on my iphone, sharing a screen with drinking games app and truth or dare app

Reformation / transformation of the self from darkness to light is a process....it says a lot that you say "Qur'an" instead of "Koran". Respect from a disbelieving shiny bald head dude is a starting point.

You should read about the Seerah (life) of prophet Muhammad especially in the first 13yrs of prophethood in Mecca and what the focus was for a people who were "barbaric" and uneducated. The focus was belief in / fear of GOD, following HIS commands and following of the example of the prophet, working of good deeds for the benefit of the Hereafter (life after death). THE SEALED NECTAR is an appropriate book that you can download and read (since you are one of the few that actually read).

[Habit7]

AdamB is was nice interacting with you. We didn't always agree (I can't think of whenever we did) but I am grateful for you willingness to have your faith challenged and to challenge the faith of others in a civil way.

Your faith doesn't allow you to befriend me but I hope we regard each other amicably.

[rocknrolla]

so an uneducated man was to make educated those who were barbaric while he could not even read or write? also an orphan with no connection to the rest of God's family tree of divinity? and kill all infidels is not barbaric?

glad to see that muslims have left barbarism behind thanks to the teachings of muhammad. yes, beating their wives to a pulp for disobedience, honour killing their children for marrying jews and christians, bringing their 'civilized mindset' to the west and stoning christians in the streets of michigan. and of course, the grand finale of christian genocide even tho Allah takes full claim to Jesus being his Son and a Prophet and a God.

so much so that even the people of Egypt realized something is wrong with the islamic doctrines they follow and ousting President Morsi on account of their own conscience.

preach ur islam in truth. but do not lie to ppl to get converts and promise them the world. deception begets deception.

[AdamB]

so an uneducated man was to make educated those who were barbaric while he could not even read or write? also an orphan with no connection to the rest of God's family tree of divinity? and kill all infidels is not barbaric?

glad to see that muslims have left barbarism behind thanks to the teachings of muhammad. yes, beating their wives to a pulp for disobedience, honour killing their children for marrying jews and christians, bringing their 'civilized mindset' to the west and stoning christians in the streets of michigan. and of course, the grand finale of christian genocide even tho Allah takes full claim to Jesus being his Son and a Prophet and a God.

so much so that even the people of Egypt realized something is wrong with the islamic doctrines they follow and ousting President Morsi on account of their own conscience.

preach ur islam in truth. but do not lie to ppl to get converts and promise them the world. deception begets deception.

And madmen love pelau...unable to distinguish fact from fiction, truth from falsehood, authentic from fabricated, GOD from creation and idols. Blabbing their tongues on every issue, saying everything but making absolutely no sense.

The promise of Allah in the next life is MUCH MUCH MORE THAN THE WORLD...

[AdamB]

Allah takes full claim to Jesus being his Son and a Prophet and a God.

Provide proof of this or from where you got your draft.

so much so that even the people of Egypt realized something is wrong with the islamic doctrines they follow and ousting President Morsi on account of their own conscience.
And the men at the time of prophet Lot desired men and the angels who visited Lot in the form of men(homosexuality) even though there were many beautiful women.

Mankind loves the freedom to exceed the limits and laws set by GOD. So this is what is wrong with the islamic doctrines. By analogy the jewish and christian doctrines were also "wrong" because the people sought to kill the prophets and supposedly hang one.

[rocknrolla]

ill have to remember that truth

"madmen love pelau"

i look forward to seeing Allah/The God reward muslims for killing innocents with suicide bomb attacks on public buses etc and persecuting christians in islamic countries with eternal treasures in heaven.

*muslims who do not believe in such teachings excluded*

[AdamB]

i look forward to seeing Allah

Don't expect HIM to be a white man you can string up on a cross to save the sins of the world.

Only the close ones, prophets and pious ppl will see HIM. Not sure I am included but can only hope for HIS mercy...

[rocknrolla]

read Surah 19, which i posted in this very thread explaining all that it meant. right there is the proof u magically disappeared from the thread around the time i presented it.

the prophets were listed by Allah.. and all have a family blood connection.. except muhammad, who comes out of the door claiming to be an orphan. he dare not claim to be of the same family. illiterate and thus not even sure of what those who wrote said in their writings.

many things people do not consider.

all of God's prophet were learned.

im not saying an orphan cannot become a prophet. however, a prophet that sows seeds of discord between other faiths and itself, leans more to the fruit of satan.

u have 2 options.. either the words of the prophet muhammad was miswritten intentionally by those who did the writing (quran tampered with)

or muhammad was nothing near a prophet.

[rocknrolla]

would also be interested on your thoughts regarding the presentation made here
islam's incorruptible Quran is corrupt
www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread965526/pg1

and

Letter from Prophet Muhammad to Christians
www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread956447/pg1

and how the moves in egypt are leading to this

christians lock hands forming a barricade to protect muslims as they pray. and muslims also form a barricade to protect the christians as they pray.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135333 ... tests.html

^isnt this a good thing? or are we supposed to spend our lives chastizing and attacking others because they arent members of islam?

i was once interested in a muslim girl. she told me i can marry her but i had to turn muslim. i dont know where they got that belief from because the quran explicitly states that i have to do no such thing. i may stay a christian and she a muslim but both practice their faith as they usually do. why so much lies out of islam?

[MG Man]

Deuteronomy 22
Seriously guys???????

[rocknrolla]

Deuteronomy 22
Seriously guys???????

just like a teacher teaching, or watching a movie, as u read further things will be explained.

Jesus later came and abolished the need to cast stones at female adulterers. the history of the old ways which are bad are there for us to view in contrast. only by 'deserving' do we see a need for less stringent laws governing mankind. thanks to the way of life of abraham and his descendents, earning the right for Mary to bare the righteous Son of God, we became relieved of punishments which we afflicted upon ourselves as punishment for our sinful nature.

it then becomes accepted that we are all sinners in the flesh who were then given a path through Jesus to redeem ourselves. so even though we have sin we can worship God, aspire to reduce our sins and through that effort gain favour.

i believe the heinous past is there for us to look at and see where weve come from and why we are better now, and also how much better we can become. to a day where we arent animalistic, help eachother, are fair and just to eachother and thus, require no laws whatsoever to govern ourselves already knowing good from bad through learning in tribulation why good is good and why bad is bad.

[New_SPECIES]

First you make statements like this:

............. the teachings of muhammad. yes, beating their wives to a pulp for disobedience, honour killing their children for marrying jews and christians, bringing their 'civilized mindset' to the west and stoning Christians, the grand finale of christian genocide..... even though Allah takes full claim to Jesus being his Son and a Prophet and a God.

Then you say “preach religion in truth”, here:

preach ur “religion” in truth. but do not lie to ppl to get converts and promise them the world. deception begets deception.

And you use statements like these with the hope that you gather more people into your anti-islam group.

You are only here in this forum to increase the spread of blaspheme and hatred, based on lies that you are told to ‘run with’.

Then, once it agrees with your plan... you go running....

Hypocrisy is your biggest downfall...

I look forward to seeing Allah/The God reward muslims for killing innocents with suicide bomb attacks on public buses etc and persecuting christians in islamic countries with eternal treasures in heaven.

I’ll use a famous line from Habit7: “that was dealt with, and refuted a long time ago!”

You really want to bring up terrorists in your argument against muslims?

If you really wanted the truth about situations, you only source of intel would not have been CNN and BBC.


I think the atheists in this forum already bashed you all about the endless Dictators, Killers, Torturers, Murders in the history of time who were all “Christians”.

Bringing up that as a point in your argument only shows your ignorance, one sidedness, and lack of knowledge.

Like I said, you reference what you choose to reference once it makes your argument stronger!

If you knew the “truth” about anything, then you would know that the foundation of Islam guides a person away from violence.

But if Islam teaches Terrorism, then (if I choose just one example), is it fair to say that Christianity teaches homosexuality, since Priests (all over the world) rape and incest young boys?

I’ll leave that road for you to walk on... Since it is beneath me.

[rocknrolla]

you are quite wrong. it is not an anti islam stance i hold at all. I am muslim in that i worship The God.

the problem is with the interpreters and followers who find justification to commit atrocious acts in the name of God/Allah. most of those interpretations come from the writings of Muhammad. thus, if we look in the world today to see the fruit of his teachings we see a significant portion of it is undesirable fruit.

but true muslims, peaceful muslims, muslims who are no longer barbaric brutes and more tolerant and civilized are excluded from the issues i am attacking.

if u say Jesus is not the Son of God or say he is a fraud etc. then prepare to have your prophet attributed a fraud.

if u burn christian bibles then u must tolerate others burning ur quran.

the golden rule is the rule of measure and balance.

in the end tho, it isnt about who's writings were best preserved, nor the evidence of the words, or the strength of it's prophets, which will make a religion great. but by how many of it's followers gain God's grace. and they can only do that through knowing the truth.

u will need a bit of a pelau if the truth got spread across all the major religions.

[Habit7]

Deuteronomy 22
Seriously guys???????

that was vague

make your point

[New_SPECIES]

Muhammad spoke to the Jews and Christians to confirm what he was saying about the biblical books (Torah, Psalms and Gospels) are true. He believed that they were from Allah and were not altered.

Obviously these books that he was referring to is not the same as the ones you are reading..

Since (like I have said a hundred times before), the commandments and instructions have changed in the various books after the man (Jesus) died!

Of course, you have your reasons why these “changes” were made.

But the fact remains that:

The book and commandments that Jesus gave before he died, is not the same as the “New” ones you always quote from.

We have those biblical books from then, we also those same biblical books that predate that era for more than 400 years.
They are the same books then, the same when Muhammad referenced them, they are the same today, they have not changed.

If you have them.... then go look for them.... Dust them out... And start reading...

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/NI ... hanges.htm

........ It shows where at least 300 changes were made from the original text over the years.

Welcome to King James Onlyism, people who believe that the King James Bible is as inspired as the original Hebrew and Greek text.

You can call it whatever you like... at the end of the day, there exists a number of Bible “Versions” and you occasionally quote from the various misinterpreted translations to make your points.

You endorse Yusuf Ali's translation of the Quran, how would you feel if a bunch of Muslims believed that Yusuf Ali translations are just as inspired as the Arabic Quran?

When I quote from the Quran, have you ever seen me state (Y.A.T.) or something to that effect to give an impression that I am quoting from a Yusuf Ali Translation?

Because you “Googled” what I said about the previous books and you saw (on the internet) that Yusuf Ali translations have similar statements, You “run” and “jump” to the ultimate conclusion that I am reading from the “Yusuf Ali Translation” of the Quran, which to you, is now a different “version” of the Quran.

But it is clear, when you quote... you state: (KJV: King James Version) etc...

So I not wrong when I say you quote from the various versions...

But because you make a judgement on the book I am reading only from similarities in what I say and believe to what might be written in other places.

You are getting caught up with the different translations of the Bible and acting like there are not different translations of the Quran: http://al-quran.info/page/language/english

I dont know if you speak any other language than English but if you were to ask 5 Spanish speakers to translate our national anthem you will get 5 different versions in Spanish.

You get annoyed when I asked questions and make statements that were discussed before but here you go with this...

I said to you (on this same topic) that; this is the reason why all Muslims are required to send their children to religious classes to learn how to read/write/speak the Arabic language in its original form.

These classes are given free by most mosques and are similar to what you might call “Sunday School”.

There are even classes that are provided for adults who are new to the religion or have not been given the opportunity when they were younger.

So before you “jump around” and throw back everything I say to you. Check your information!

Muslims, who actually follow the prescribed path, follow the teaching of the Quran straight from the Original Text in the Original Form.

We don’t ever depend on anybody’s translation (into another language) or interpretation etc..

Changes in translations or multiplicity of translations does not affect the truth of the original text. You dont allow it for the Quran, why allow it for the Bible. I was able to show you in that in Surah 3:54 "Allah is the best of deceivers". Some translators would agree with me some wont, but by your reasoning, because there is ambiguity, does it mean that the Quran has been changed?

The truth is that some words in any language may be used for more than one meaning.

But when read in its context, one who knows the language and understands its context will have no doubt as to what it means.

Let’s take a simple example in the English language for the word ‘drop’:

(1) There was a drop of blood on his clothes.
(2) I was supposed to drop him to the airport.
(3) He was told to put his hands up, and drop his gun.
(4) If you drop tea on the sofa, the stain will stay forever.
(5) If you cry and the tears drop on your cheeks, we will know you were upset.

In any language, there are many words that can be used in different ways; but the one who understands the language and reads it in context, will always easily understand the meaning.

The same goes for the statement in the Quran that you continuously try to corruptly translate.

Just like I told AdamB, I am telling you, bring proof of your Islamic Bible which showed that the Torah, Psalms and Gospels confirming the Quran. Until then your argument from silence is incredulous.

I will show you some evidence in the near future...

But as expected, you will do just as you did with all other evidence shown to you about Islam..

You will blatantly reject it, due to ignorance, one sided thinking and your blind, opposing belief.


As the Quran states:

“We will show them our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?”
Quran: 41:53

[Habit7]

Dude you are yet to acknowledge your errors with there being a Book of Moses prior to the Bible and the existence of a Book of Jesus.

You seem fixated on the fact that there are different translations of varying accuracy of the original Hebrew and Greek text of the Bible you call "versions" as if there isn't the same varying translations for the Quran from Arabic. The fundamental requirement for any Bible school graduate are courses in Hebrew and Greek. Even I as a layman am a student of Greek, but there are sufficient study aids and guides for laity. The problem is that because I quote the Bible in English (as you do quote the Quran in English) you claim that it is possibly not saying that in the original language. But if you read the original language it would more emphatically state than in English points like Jesus is Yahweh and that there no other way to the Father but through Christ.
What you need to do is prove my statements incorrect in the original language just as I showed that in Arabic it states the Allah is best of deceivers.

Dont just throw up the accusation the Bible has been changed from its original Islamic origins, bring proof of an Islamic Bible Muhammad believed it was untampered, why not you? I await to see your proof of a Bible changed from its Islamic moorings (and please don't do as before and reference a King James Only website which would like me, affirm the inspiration of the original text and affirm that Allah of the Quran is no the true God.)

[New_SPECIES]

Dude you are yet to acknowledge your errors with there being a Book of Moses prior to the Bible and the existence of a Book of Jesus.

Where did I make an error?

Book of Moses: Torah
Book of David: Psalms
Book of Jesus: Gospel
Book of Muhammad: Quran

If you don’t “believe” in this history, then does that mean it is not true?

You seem fixated on the fact that there are different translations of varying accuracy of the original Hebrew and Greek text of the Bible you call "versions" as if there isn't the same varying translations for the Quran from Arabic. The fundamental requirement for any Bible school graduate are courses in Hebrew and Greek. Even I as a layman am a student of Greek, but there are sufficient study aids and guides for laity. The problem is that because I quote the Bible in English (as you do quote the Quran in English) you claim that it is possibly not saying that in the original language. But if you read the original language it would more emphatically state than in English points like Jesus is Yahweh and that there no other way to the Father but through Christ.

Because you might read something in the original language of the original book doesn’t mean that is was not tampered with.

The true scriptures of Jesus are all mentioned in the Quran.... never saw anything about “Jesus is Yahweh” or "no other way to the Father but through Christ"... Sorry!

You already admitted the reasons why your people changed the teachings of the original book...

You have stated previously that you all believe that, because the man (Jesus) “died” on the cross for the sins of man etc...

And this caused the scriptures to be changed and re-written.

So why are you now denying that they were actually re-written?

I am agreeing with you, that you are following text that was changed!

I have shown on many, many occasions the reasons behind the preservation of the Quran.
Repeating myself on a topic covered doesn’t make sense... especially according to you, right?

What you need to do is prove my statements incorrect in the original language just as I showed that in Arabic it states the Allah is best of deceivers.

Time and Time again, various people came onto the thread and explained what is meant by this One Statement, but your “brick wall” against understanding Islam, strengthens with every passing day as your ignorance grows.

Although, I showed you OVER 100 issues from the books you quote from...

You “Brushed them Off”, yet dwell on one statement as your greatest strength against the Quran.

Tossing around an argument that has been rendered invalid, just clearly shows your intention to spread blasphemy about a religion...

It also clearly categorizes you with those people on the internet who are bent on discriminating other religions while blind to the issues of their own.... hypocrisy to the highest!

Dont just throw up the accusation the Bible has been changed from its original Islamic origins...

“Throw up an Accusation” you say...

Like I said... You previously acknowledged that the teachings were changed after the Man/Jesus/God died for your sins.

So I was just agreeing with you and showing you why your teachings differ from what we follow. The difference occurred due to these changes – that you already acknowledged!

bring proof of an Islamic Bible Muhammad believed it was untampered, why not you? I await to see your proof of a Bible changed from its Islamic moorings.....

What the hell you talking about “Muhammad believed it was untampered, why not you?”...

The scriptures Prophet Muhammad was talking about are the ones I mentioned above (eg. the original Gospel of Jesus).

But because so many of you (in history) tampered with the damn thing, the original teachings in its original script simply cannot be found in the form originally written!

Only some truth can be attained, when the few verses and lines (in between) that were not "completely" changed, are examined.

These original teachings are even buried deeper when your comrades on the internet keep circulating “their” tampered script!


Every single teaching of the Original Gospel of Jesus is stated clearly in the Quran...

But since you clearly know nothing about the Quran or its language then you (and your people) clearly know nothing about Jesus and his teachings.


The Bible (that you quote from) is not and was never of the origins of the Words of God.

The Torah was sent to Moses, and the Injil (Gospel, Glad Tidings, Good News) was sent to Jesus, and not to the disciples, nor to deceivers who never even met Jesus in person, such as Paul.

The reason why the "gospels" of the bible are named as such today is because they were named after the original Revelations that Jesus had.

So in other words, the real Gospel is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Everything else is a fabrication on the mouths of Jesus and his disciples.

There is no such thing, in Islam, called "gospel of Matthew", "gospel of John", etc...

Now whether or not there is actually a gospel out there with the name "The Gospel of Jesus", in the scriptures outside the bible, that is something I don't know, and certainly, even if it does, we still couldn't be sure that it too didn't get corrupt.

The complete original teachings are simply lost from this earth.

Only the Quran is the original Word of God. All of the other books contain corruptions and lies in them.

That is why the Quran said:

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption).
(Quran, 15:9)"

"It is upon Us to collect and compile it (i.e., the Quran) and to promulgate it:
(Quran, 75:17)"

"Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from God,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
(Quran, 2:77-79)"

[Habit7]

Don't know which is worst, AdamB ignoring your questions and sidestepping the issue or...

New_SPECIES claiming that "the Book of Moses came before the Bible and the Bible references the Book of Moses" , there is a Gospel of Jesus (as if Jesus wrote it) and that we must reinterpret the highly documented 1st Century Christianity and the Bible, through the lens of 7th Century Islam and when Islam contradicts the Torah, Psalms and Gospel it appeals to, believe that the original text has been tampered away from Islam even though we have sources prior to and during the time of Muhammad that show that those books have not change.

Sadly, you are unreasonable and the only evidence you have has been "lost from this earth." Nevertheless you trust in what an illiterate man has informed you on what was and is in books (Torah, Psalms and Gospel) that were widely distributed and known at that time just not yet translated into Arabic until the 8th Century.

You are highly deceived and I pray that the scales would be removed from your eyes so that you will see Jesus as both Lord and Saviour as he claimed to be and thereby crucified and rose again, and is seated at the right hand of the Father in glory.

[New_SPECIES]

Don't know which is worst, AdamB ignoring your questions and sidestepping the issue...

What do you refer to as “ignoring the issue”?

Do you mean, when someone brushes off and entire topic and moves to a new one?

Is it just like what you did, when I raised over 100 contradictions from your Bible Books and you “brushed them off”?

What is the point in any muslim answering any question of yours when all you do is reject everything or ignore the answers and explanations entirely...

Just like what you are doing when we answered you about “Allah the best of deceivers...”

New_SPECIES claiming that "the Book of Moses came before the Bible and the Bible references the Book of Moses"............

Anything that I say and you don’t believe in, will always be to you, a “claim”...

But your problem is that your “claims” (or defences) from the “sources” that you have are not the original words or laws preached by the man called Jesus.

In other words, everything you reference from One of the Bible Versions, is not what was taught by the Man/Messiah/God - that you claim to follow called Jesus.

None of the "scriptures" that you refer to were written by anybody that ever came in contact with Jesus.

And until you realize that, you will just be moving further and further away from the truth!

Sadly, you are unreasonable and the only evidence you have has been "lost from this earth." Nevertheless you trust in what an illiterate man has informed you on what was and is in books (Torah, Psalms and Gospel) that were widely distributed and known at that time just not yet translated into Arabic until the 8th Century.

You want to speak about me trusting in an illiterate man?

When the apostles were described as "uneducated and ignorant men" in Acts 4:13.


Does illiterate mean Dumb, Deaf and Blind?

Prophet Muhammad (just like Jesus) had different means of transmitting the message and passing it to the people?

What will you define as “literate” in that era?

Based on your definition, then was Jesus illiterate, since he never wrote any of the references you quote from?

You are highly deceived and I pray that the scales would be removed from your eyes so that you will see Jesus as both Lord and Saviour as he claimed to be and thereby crucified and rose again, and is seated at the right hand of the Father in glory.

If the “scales” you refer to, keep me guarded from the influence of your lies and deceit, then I’ll leave it there...

By the way, how to you know if you should pray for me.... since according to your bible:

(a) "Each man will have to bear his own load" (Galatians 6:5)

(b) "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2)

Which one of these contradictions should a person follow?


Anyway... for others who might be interested to know:

The Quran was passed to the people through the following stages:
During the Holy Prophet's life, whenever a revelation came to him, he would proclaim it to people, then many of his followers would learn it by heart, and it would also be put into writing at the same time.
As the Holy Quran was recited aloud in public prayers, and also read frequently at other times, every Muslim was quite familiar with its contents, and many knew it completely by heart.
About six months after the Holy Prophet's death, which took place in 632 C.E., work was undertaken to collect a complete copy of the Quran consisting of all the writings made in the Holy Prophet's presence. This was done on the instructions of the first ruler of the Muslims, Abu Bakr, and with the help of the scribes and the Companions of the Holy Prophet. In this way, a master copy of the Quran was collected.
Some 15 years later, when Muslim rule had spread far and wide, the third ruler of the Muslims after the Holy Prophet, called Uthman, ordered further copies to be transcribed from this master copy. These copies were sent to the big cities of the then Muslim world to be kept as standard copies. Muslims also kept up the practice of memorizing parts of the Holy Book, many learning the whole of it by heart. In this way, the Holy Quran was passed down the ages, in both written and oral form, remaining intact in its original form. Because the Quran was recited aloud everyday in public prayers and gatherings, everyone recognized the same Quran, (even until today).

[rocknrolla]

jesus was literate and mathematical. think about it.. Son of God.. the guy who created the universe.. yeah he'd know a whole lot about language/communication and numbers.

in the hidden books it is written that Jesus schooled the teachers brought to teach him on the letters of the alphabet. they were all stunned at the knowledge he possessed as he described the reasons why 'A' is drawn the way it is and its attributes representing the heavenly realms.

he schooled scribes and pharisees with superior knowledge of the topics they considered themselves the notorious experts on to the point that they even admitted his knowledge was superior and retired from teaching him to become his students.

[goalpost]

holy crap i've lost track of who's who in this thread. adamb still around?

Still around but not active on this thread. I have more important things to do with my time, personally and for the benefit of mankind.

Mad ppl (eg. rocknrolla) and blinded christians (eg. Habit7) run amock on the thread now. I have done my duty which is:

1. to warn about disbelief and polytheism, exceeding the limits set by GOD Almighty.

2. to show the way to worship GOD Almighty in the manner that HE has prescribed, the way that leads to everlasting life in the Hereafter....for those who choose to believe.

BTW goalpost, I don't recall posts or discussions with you while I was active on the thread.

Nah sorry pal, was a lurker on this particular thread, just gaining insight from the different contributors to this thread.

[stev]

jesus was literate and mathematical. think about it.. Son of God.. the guy who created the universe.. yeah he'd know a whole lot about language/communication and numbers.

in the hidden books it is written that Jesus schooled the teachers brought to teach him on the letters of the alphabet. they were all stunned at the knowledge he possessed as he described the reasons why 'A' is drawn the way it is and its attributes representing the heavenly realms.

he schooled scribes and pharisees with superior knowledge of the topics they considered themselves the notorious experts on to the point that they even admitted his knowledge was superior and retired from teaching him to become his students.

no offence buddy but there is no proof of what u said....just as there is no proof that Jesus was high on weed a lot as mentioned here:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/j ... e.religion

and what hidden books?

[Habit7]

^^^If you haven't realised yet, people see the Jesus of the Bible, read about His words, deeds and thoughts and subsequently reject Him. Some even decide to substitute Him with a Jesus of their own creation.

The Jesus of the Bible is one of the most verifiable and documented persons of antiquity whose full account of His birth, life and death are not just limited to the 4 Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). Yet there are those even in this thread who would propose a Jesus with no historicity other than the sources that they claim are hidden or have disappeared from the Earth.

The message of Jesus today in the Bible was just as repugnant as when He preach it among His contemporaries. The major difference is they were able to demonstrate their rejection in the action of crucifying their Messiah.

[AdamB]

holy crap i've lost track of who's who in this thread. adamb still around?

Still around but not active on this thread. I have more important things to do with my time, personally and for the benefit of mankind.

Mad ppl (eg. rocknrolla) and blinded christians (eg. Habit7) run amock on the thread now. I have done my duty which is:

1. to warn about disbelief and polytheism, exceeding the limits set by GOD Almighty.

2. to show the way to worship GOD Almighty in the manner that HE has prescribed, the way that leads to everlasting life in the Hereafter....for those who choose to believe.

BTW goalpost, I don't recall posts or discussions with you while I was active on the thread.

Nah sorry pal, was a lurker on this particular thread, just gaining insight from the different contributors to this thread.

And what are opinions thus far, comparing the points made by various contributors?

[rocknrolla]

jesus was literate and mathematical. think about it.. Son of God.. the guy who created the universe.. yeah he'd know a whole lot about language/communication and numbers.

in the hidden books it is written that Jesus schooled the teachers brought to teach him on the letters of the alphabet. they were all stunned at the knowledge he possessed as he described the reasons why 'A' is drawn the way it is and its attributes representing the heavenly realms.

he schooled scribes and pharisees with superior knowledge of the topics they considered themselves the notorious experts on to the point that they even admitted his knowledge was superior and retired from teaching him to become his students.

no offence buddy but there is no proof of what u said....just as there is no proof that Jesus was high on weed a lot as mentioned here:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/j ... e.religion

and what hidden books?

well there's no proof of anything much without being there when it all happened. ill have to re-source the book. i believe it was one of the apocryphal books which spoke of the life of jesus as a child. the large gap in the New Testament which just jumps from jesus as a baby to jesus as an adult with very little mention of his adolescent years.

[AdamB]

^^^If you haven't realised yet, people see the Jesus of the Bible, read about His words, deeds and thoughts and subsequently reject Him. Some even decide to substitute Him with a Jesus of their own creation. Yes, some have substituted him with GOD, you know of whom I speak.

The Jesus of the Bible is one of the most verifiable and documented persons of antiquity whose full account of His birth, life and death are not just limited to the 4 Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). Recorded factual historical evidence disagrees with youYet there are those even in this thread who would propose a Jesus with no historicity other than the sources that they claim are hidden or have disappeared from the Earth.

The message of Jesus today in the Bible was just as repugnant as when He preach it among His contemporaries. The major difference is they were able to demonstrate their rejection in the action of crucifying their Messiah.

Well said?? The message of Jesus was repugnant? They crucified their Messiah, not their GOD??

[rocknrolla]

here is at least part of the apocryphal books. havent verified if the particular story ive mentioned is there as im heading to work, but a quick skim has the other stories im familiar with. when jesus cursed a boy for undeserved wickedness as a child etc.

campus.udayton.edu/mary/Jesus%20as%20a%20Child.pdf

gnosis studies
gnosis.org/library/inftoma.htm

edit: ok here it is. i read this stuff like 15 years ago so..

VI. 1 Now a certain teacher, Zacchaeus by name, stood there and he heard in part when Jesus said these things to his father and he marvelled greatly that being a young child he spake such matters. 2 And after a few days he came near unto Joseph and said unto him: Thou hast a wise child, and he hath understanding. Come, deliver him to me that he may learn letters. And I will teach him with the letters all knowledge and that he salute all the elders and honour them as grandfathers and fathers, and love them of his own years. 3 And he told him all the letters from Alpha even to Omega clearly, with much questioning. But Jesus looked upon Zacchaeus the teacher and saith unto him: Thou that knowest not the Alpha according to its nature, how canst thou teach others the Beta? thou hypocrite, first, if thou knowest it, teach the Alpha, and then will we believe thee concerning the Beta. Then began he to confound the mouth of the teacher concerning the first letter, and he could not prevail to answer him. 4 And in the hearing of many the young child saith to Zacchaeus: Hear, O teacher, the ordinance of the first letter and pay heed to this, how that it hath [what follows is really unintelligible in this and in all the parallel texts: a literal version would run something like this: how that it hath lines, and a middle mark, which thou seest, common to both, going apart; coming together, raised up on high, dancing (a corrupt word), of three signs, like in kind (a corrupt word), balanced, equal in measure]: thou hast the rules of the Alpha.