The comprehensive 4age thread

[eliteauto]

Btw for those tuners who cross-pollinate between this site and zorce kindly contribute to the building of the Toyota forum please, check the following links:
http://www.zorce.com/zforums/viewtopic.php?t=2124
http://www.zorce.com/zforums/viewtopic.php?t=2114

[TESTED performance]

Boy it hard enough keeping up with this forum but i'll make you a deal if you have a good 4a or 3s tech thread authored by yourself running on zorce i will try my best to contribute. btw for those of you who fell for that add in the car parts section SHAME ON YOU... SHAME ON YOUUUU
OK IMPORTANT NOTICE.... any of you guys with an AE101 SERIOUSLY and i do mean SERIOUSLY considering upgrading to the 3sgte engine its not as scary as people try to make it seem. for those who question my motive i nudged around under the hood of one today that is faster than the modded evo VII that it shares a home with. Im more than willing to share any information that you may need in order to both source and install the engine in your car. but as i always say if you wait a lil bit longer you can use me as your guinea pig seeing that im pretty much about to take all of my own advice pending a pm of a trusted member of this website. for those of you who have grown very attached to the sleek look of your car's hood you may have to cut it one way or another. there are also the one's like me who are very jealous of the 3 point strut tower brace that comes on high performance 101's, that are going to have to deal with the loss of that bar. it wont work with the swap. believe it or not i saw no other nasty surprises awaiting the would be swapper except for the labour cost of around $3500 - 4000 (remember cheap doesnt mean good) and also the fact that there would be an aditional cost on your behalf to source an intercooler and the piping for it as well as a fuel pump. i think everything else should be covered in the labour cost of the swap (except the engine of course- which you must first locate) you can use the fact that these engines are not only available through a stroke of luck at the bamboo, as a motivation tool.

[Bezman]

if you swapping in a turbo motor your unexpected costs are going to be a little more than 3500-4000 in labour alone, unless you getting all you auxillary parts free, (hoses, clamps, brackets, mounts, hoses, fittings, exhaust work, gaskets, misc engine replacement parts - i would change the water pump, oil pump, spark plugs, belts, turbo gaskets, water jackets etc... esp on a used turbo motor - even if it is a toyota)

you said it - good thing no cheap and vice versa

if you doing it do it properly...

[Mr. Go Slow]

My car: 2001 Toyota Trueno BZ-R with a 2nd gen 3sgte. Sawp is probably 2 years or so now.

Just FYI, dunno about the 3rd and 4th gen but the 2nd gen 3sgte in a BZ-R trueno can and does retain the 3 point strut bar.

Heat management is a HUGE issue on the stock motor, I've only just gotten that sorted out some months back ...

Axles are a next big issue I only just got that sorted out last month.

I can honestly say my car is now reliable but this is in no way an easy swap.

You'll definitely want the MR2 LSD box, one wheel drive sux ... I know, I've tried it and this engine has way too much torque to even consider that as a viable option.

I'd highly recommend you budget for ceramic coating of your piping and your front mount your IC with the install.

Mounts - I'd recommend aftermarket mount inserts ...

Cash ... Hope you have a lot of it. This swap will hit 20K easy and that's if you spend all your $$$ wizely ...

[AllTrac]

marcus could u tell us what u have done to sort out the axles?

[TESTED performance]

marcus could u tell us what u have done to sort out the axles?

^^^^ but not only that could you be a bit more explicit about the heat management issue? how exactly does this problem manifest itself and what (from your experience) is the best alternative. well what are all the alternatives too actually cause we can discuss them which is what this thread is about. I'd also like to quote you on the LSD box thing. i've driven a fwd car putting out about 230WHP and the one wheel spinnout was insane i vowed that day never to own a manual gearbox that wasnt limited slip.
who do you recommend to do the ceramic coating and for arguement sake why should i or anyone spend the extra money to get it done? did this help with the heat management problem so significantly that you highly recommend it? sorry if i seem to nag but i really dont wanna run into a problem and feel guilty about knowing i could have just asked one of you guys before the fact.
oh and the way the engine was sorta "rolled back" to fit into the corolla the head got in the way of the bolt up location for the strut brace on the chassis. i'll see if there's a way to work around having to change it and let you guys know.
Oh and congrats on your wedding... you got married the day b4 my birthday lol. Im a pretty lucky dude so i think you couldnt have chosen a better date. good luck.

[Mr. Go Slow]

marcus could u tell us what u have done to sort out the axles?

Original gt4 celica axles with the (wheel) ends splined by MIC to fit the BZ-R spindles ...

Seriously, if I snap an axle now, I give up, lol

[Mr. Go Slow]

^^^^ but not only that could you be a bit more explicit about the heat management issue? how exactly does this problem manifest itself and what (from your experience) is the best alternative. well what are all the alternatives too actually cause we can discuss them which is what this thread is about.

The 3sgte throws a lot of heat ... A LOT it's not so much the engine itself as I've discovered as it is the manifold/turbo (stock) combo. I've gapped the back of my hood, put custom vents in the bonnet and installed 3 fans to run (2 pulling inside the engine bay one pulling out in front) all the time.

The car can now handle midday sun driven with 'attitude' without running hot.

The stock 2nd gen ecu is VERY paranoid and restrictive about ambient air temperature and as such and will cut boost if the air temp is unsuitably high.
This is very desirable as it will literally save your engine after the install if all is not 100%.

The Intercooler piping however, will still get too hot, triggering a low boost restriction if driven hard in midday sun (or very hot conditions), so I need to coat the piping and (new) manifold (when I can afford it) to address this. I know this will work as I've experimented with wrapping the manifold with ordinary tin foil as an experiment and it's made a huge difference in my engine bay temperature.

My IC piping is currently heat wrapped, but the coating is the better option.

I'd also like to quote you on the LSD box thing. i've driven a fwd car putting out about 230WHP and the one wheel spinnout was insane i vowed that day never to own a manual gearbox that wasnt limited slip.

Good luck getting the MR2 LSD box complete with axles ... Mine came from Australia ... I used to run an N/A 3sge fwd box ... gears were nice and short, but I killed the clutch at the open diff sucks.

who do you recommend to do the ceramic coating and for arguement sake why should i or anyone spend the extra money to get it done? did this help with the heat management problem so significantly that you highly recommend it? sorry if i seem to nag but i really dont wanna run into a problem and feel guilty about knowing i could have just asked one of you guys before the fact.

See above .. believe me, you'll need it ... the 4a engine bays are significantly smaller than the celica / mr2 units. You'll need all the help you can get.

oh and the way the engine was sorta "rolled back" to fit into the corolla the head got in the way of the bolt up location for the strut brace on the chassis. i'll see if there's a way to work around having to change it and let you guys know.

It has to be installed that way. The intake manifold on the later generations is larger that may be why he had clearance issues that didn't.

Oh and congrats on your wedding... you got married the day b4 my birthday lol. Im a pretty lucky dude so i think you couldnt have chosen a better date. good luck.

Thanks ;->

[Terran]

This has been some very informative reading...

Considering some of the issues I've had personally, I know I won't have the patience to engage in a bigger project like this again. Nasscott, we're here for you... to give you counselling, buy you a drink, whatever it takes as things get tough.

Seriously, I hope you guys continue to share the knowledge and experience here. Nasscott, we'd love to hear how things progress with yours as you get started. If there's any way we can help...

[gt4tified]

[quote="Mr. Go Slow"]

... the 4a engine bays are significantly smaller than the celica / mr2 units.

Not significantly but a lil bit smaller...don't let the wide fenders fool yuh! lol

Oh yeah, Mr. Go Slow don't forget to tell them that if the alltrac radiator is not incorporated, you'll have to rebuild a good size 3-core to deal with the 3sgte.

[TESTED performance]

... the 4a engine bays are significantly smaller than the celica / mr2 units.

Not significantly but a lil bit smaller...don't let the wide fenders fool yuh! lol

Oh yeah, Mr. Go Slow don't forget to tell them that if the alltrac radiator is not incorporated, you'll have to rebuild a good size 3-core to deal with the 3sgte.

I totally forgot to ask him about the radiator... is there any other radiator besides the original one or a built one that can work up?
by the way the mechanic said that the toyota camry axles can work up with the 3sgte conversion.
I dont know if mine is a special price because of contacts but the mechanic reassured me again that as long as i source the plumbing for the IC and the IC itself he's going to supply everything else with the labour charge of ~$3500 i'd say its guaranteed to hit $4000 so im budgeting for $5000 in labour to get it installed. we're just trying to locate a sturdy looking 3rd gen now. im sure there will be surprises but i hope there wont be any nasty ones. Mr go slow's caution duely noted but instead of ceramic coating im going to heat wrap everything cause i have about 4 rolls and nothing else to do with them anyway.
One concern. does the engine HAVE to be so effing noisey? the corolla sounds like a small helicopter at idle. is there any celica or mr2 exaust that can bolt up on the bz touring to make it less noisey than the corolla i checked out with the 3s in it? im not a big fan of deafness.

[mrboxman]

i have an aftermarket barrel that came of a celica if u interested

[gt4tified]

nasscott,

the 3sgte is a powerful engine....in layman's terms power=noise. I thought a celica was noisy until I heard Team H20's ex-1jzgte cressida....dat was like but the sound of the turbo spooling amidst the exhaust was music to my ears.

If you go to 3" exhaust right down with a sizeable barrel the pitch of the exhaust will not be as annoying but lower....still noisy tho.

I guess what I'm saying is that you can't have your cake and eat it too!

[TESTED performance]

ah know i does sound like i just wanna argue eh but i cah subscribe to that power = noise theory. for instance if that were true the bugatti veyron would not be a street legal production car while putting out 987 horses. there must be a way to get a substancial amount of power out of a car without the sonorous bark that accompanies most aftermarket exaust modifications. well i'll find out the hard way i guess.
Mr boxman not just the barrel i interested in i mean the entire exaust that the engine comes with stock. if any of those could work up even if u gotta splice tubing and a different barrel together for a more stock sounding motor. i may lose a couple of horses but i guess its for a good cause. I was wondering if a stock EVO or IMPREZZA barrel is freeflowing enough to work up on my wagon since i know a few people who have changed from their stock ones. its just an idea i dont know if its a feasible one.
for those of you who forgot im still trying to complete the parts list project started on page five. if i dig through my receipts i should be able to find part numbers and prices for the oil filter, spark plugs, plug wires and the alternator belt. im not sure what else i can get. but i'd really like to finish the listing so if any of you guys can contribute please help out. i dont know if those parts work the same on both the silver and the blacktop engines maybe one of you guys can assist in confirming whether this is so or not. and feel free to start a comprehensive list for any engine you may have a wealth of knowlege on in terms of parts and prices. i'll start one if no one else does for the 3sgte when i get goin on the upgrade

[AllTrac]

i dont find it annoying at all, turbo cars dont have annoying exhaust note, as long as u have a nice free flow down pipe and exhaust, it does give a nice deep rumble, i mean nasscott if u could handle de nise a high revving 4age then i think 3s noise is the least of your worries

[Terran]

Fuh real, Trac! My engine bawls (but MOVES)... and I ent remove the silencer yet!

Nasscott, I would just love to hear the purr of that 3S. Man, take all the noise you could get, because the sound of that turbo and the subsequent blow offs gonna be orgasmic!

[Bezman]

man my exhaust on the silvia used to drive me crazy, way too noisy.. and i had a full aftermarket setup (blitz), not no muffler shop thing..

i have seen and witnesed very fast and quiet cars, but with allot fo exhaust work. magnaflow makes really good silencers and barrels, you will need to custom amke the system and probably import the barrels and silencers etc,.

one thing to remember the quieter the exhaust, the more restriction, the more power you need to make to balance it off.

another idea is to use the trick APEX'i and ATPturbo.com exhaust bypass and variable exhausts etc..

[fafrumlosin]

ok i have been examining my exhaust system and i want some advice..the person who installed the engine did some madness and i am thinking of choping it out and doing it over. from the secondaries there is 2 1/4 into a resonator into 2 1/4 and then just before the gastank there is a y that splits to either side of the car with 2 inch pipe to two stainless barrels...now im guessing here that nearly the last half of my exhaust system is nearly a 4 inch system isnt this too much for a NA 1.6 on top of that it rediculously loud..im thinking of just cutting from the y and replacing it with a single piece of 2 1/4 to one barrel

[TESTED performance]

thanks RS200 this thread would be so much less without the input made by yourself and alltrac... and everyone else
OK DOWN TO BUSINESS...
the following are my reasons why i insist on getting the 3rd gen (3rd revision) 3sgte motor over the first 2

Differences between revision 1 & 2 engines and revision 3
Just a quick list, do not take any of these as gospel:

position and orientation of oil filter changed.
different internal engine parts, e.g. pistons, con-rods etc.
turbo charger changed from Toyota CT26 to CT20B (same intercooler though).
boost pressure raised from about 10 to about 13 PSI.
power output raised from 220 to 240 BHP.
compression ratio slightly lowered.
injector size increased from 430cc to 540cc.
fuel cut threshold raised from about 12 PSI to about 18 PSI.
head and inlet path completely redesigned. TVIS removed, 8 'independent long ports' reduced to 4.
throttle body increased from 55mm to 60mm.
inlet valve lift increased from 8.2 to 8.7.
different, smarter engine ECU, more tolerant of poor fuel, different connector pin out.
air flow meter removed.
intake manifold inlet air temperature sensor added. i.e. after turbo and intercooler.
ECU now modulates the turbo VSV to achieve variable control of boost pressure rather than either open/full or closed/reduced. Control of boost now quite subtle when ECU is unhappy because of temperatures, detonation, speed, etc.
location of valve shims moved (someone said this was to stop problems with them falling out). If the manual is to be believed, this makes adjusting the valve clearances a much bigger job as on the revision 3 it involves removing the camshafts (might as well replace the timing belt whilst you're at it).
exhaust valve clearance increased by 0.08 mm (probably. valve clearances is one question I'd like answered direct from Japan. They are probably the same as the UK GT4s, but it would be nice to be sure).
oil pan changed from a one piece pressed steel part to a two piece affair, the upper half being aluminium, the lower half being pressed steel.
No. 1 compression ring now described as 'stainless steel' in GT4 manual/supplement instead of just 'steel'. Oil ring is described as 'stainless steel' instead of 'a combination of steel and stainless steel'. No. 2 compression ring remains described as 'cast iron'.
idle speed perhaps slightly reduced (need to check this out on a rev 1 or 2 car, my stickers say 750 rpm, I've a feeling rev 1 & 2 was 800 rpm).
exhaust part numbers changed. Revision 2 part number for the front pipe is superceeded by the revision 3 front pipe part number. Back-box part numbers different. Unknown to me whether they are actually different.
Coolant drain plug added on cylinder block (on older engines the manual says to disconnect a by-pass hose when changing coolant).
view the rest of this "borrowed" article below...
http://www.mr2turbo.info/diff.html

[AllTrac]

if i ever rebuild my 3s, im bumping up my compression ratio to 9.5

[TESTED performance]

NOTICE: 4AGE 20V blacktop part number/pricelist parts list updated on page 5. I just need to find one more bill and that would be all of my contribution to the list.

Does ANYONE visiting this forum own a 3rd gen 3SGTE engine?

[TESTED performance]

CLICK ON THE IMAGE FOR FULL SIZE(may require popup unblock)

cant fix this post with the 4ag specs i'll try later

[TESTED performance]

do any of you peeps know if i can get the fins on my intercooler replaced. quite a few of them are bent and i was hoping i could get the whole intercooler redone without having to replace it because there are no leaks or anything just the fin problem.

[AllTrac]

just take something flat, like a screw driver and straighten it, u doh need to replace the fins, it wont leak because of bent fins, only if the end tanks are damaged or the core itself that the air passes through is damaged.

[gt4tified]

Yeah anyways, me nah want to spam another thread so I bringin de talk here.....lemme hear about this 19psi AE 101 3sgte freak now?

Is he ready for pitbull yet tho? Cuz the blue ae92 rigged for spray last time I see it eh? And who tuning this 101 trac?

[AllTrac]

some fella who was sitting in de passanger seat was tuning it with the laptop, i thin he running a microtec ems, frankly im a bit dissapointed that he has to pump over 20psi and upgrade turbo ect on a 4th gen 3sgte(caldina) to try and touch 12's, i belive witht he right bpu mods and some slicks he coudl do it with that engine.

[TESTED performance]

Who is pitbull??? i keep hearing the name popup. is that mih boy from San Juan with the blue corolla with the insanely fast 3sgte? He actually has a modded evo 7 now and he tell me the corolla still faster than the evo that car was what first inspired me to research the 3sgte engine. By de way... i think if u need anything more than a boost controller and some tuning to run 12's with a 4th gen 3s in a 101 u need licks. Anyway down to business. i dont think allyuh understand what i mean when i say the fins on the intercooler effed up so here's a pic... tell mih if u think this could be fixed cause the core fine is just de damn fins.

[AllTrac]

i cant really tell much by the pic, but it doesnt look like it has core damage, your safest bet is to pressure test it.

[bleedingfreak]

ok i have been examining my exhaust system and i want some advice..the person who installed the engine did some madness and i am thinking of choping it out and doing it over. from the secondaries there is 2 1/4 into a resonator into 2 1/4 and then just before the gastank there is a y that splits to either side of the car with 2 inch pipe to two stainless barrels...now im guessing here that nearly the last half of my exhaust system is nearly a 4 inch system isnt this too much for a NA 1.6 on top of that it rediculously loud..im thinking of just cutting from the y and replacing it with a single piece of 2 1/4 to one barrel

How you manage that? That real rice boy!

Yeah I think you don't need the two barrels - run it back the original course and pay for the labour with the unneeded barrel

[bleedingfreak]

i cant really tell much by the pic, but it doesnt look like it has core damage, your safest bet is to pressure test it.

I find that core looks frigged up Pressure testing a must