IS HELL REAL???

[mamoo_pagal]

So where Hitler is right now ? in hell ?

hmm, and this is something that always amazes me. There are many who have nothing to say about Hitler, however, they are always certain and confident to say that Gandhi is in hell......
So who knows, both Hitler and Ghandi are probably in hell based on the logic of some religious entities that exist!!

[mediahouse]

The muslim and christians teaching are very similar , the christians was misguided and led to believe Jesus is god. how can he be a god when they also call him the son of god? so they praying to the son of god and not the god himself?

the muslims and christians both believe in a heaven and hell , this can be achieved by your doing in this world until a Judgement day arrives .

If there is a beginning then theres surely an end ..

as for me yes there is a hell and heaven and people have to pay for their deeds.

Example if a man kill and rape many people do you think when he dies thats it for him? dont you think he has to meet his creator to pay for his acts?


oh well....

[mamoo_pagal]

The muslim and christians teaching are very similar , the christians was misguided and led to believe Jesus is god. how can he be a god when they also call him the son of god? so they praying to the son of god and not the god himself?

the muslims and christians both believe in a heaven and hell , this can be achieved by your doing in this world until a Judgement day arrives .

If there is a beginning then theres surely an end ..

as for me yes there is a hell and heaven and people have to pay for their deeds.

Example if a man kill and rape many people do you think when he dies thats it for him? dont you think he has to meet his creator to pay for his acts?


oh well....

this makes us feel nice, the thought of ultimate justice....
but a quick question, the person who is a victim of the rape, who lives a life of hate, anger and depression. Who then indulges in behaviour that is "worthy" of being cast into hell. Does this person get condemned??

[megadoc1]

the christians was misguided and led to believe Jesus is god. how can he be a god when they also call him the son of god? so they praying to the son of god and not the god himself?

misguided is not the term you need to use here, best if you use the word believe instead.
and to answer your other questions
take a lil read

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

so before he was known as the son of God, he is known as God.

In Isaiah 10:20, we find the expression, "Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel." The Holy one is said to be no less than Jehovah Himself. And in Acts 3:13-4, Peter tells the men of Jerusalem, "You delivered up [Jesus], and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. You disowned the Holy and Righteous One."
In Isaiah 44:6 we read, "Thus says [Jehovah], the King of Israel and his Redeemer, [Jehovah Sabaoth]: 'I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me." That verse in and of itself offers strong proof for the Trinity, because it differentiates between Jehovah and His Redeemer Jehovah. But it also reserves for Jehovah God this expression "the first and the last." That title surfaces again in Revelation 1:8, where it is again applied to Jehovah: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." No question about who owns that title. Notice, too that it is a title that can hardly be shared with any created being: the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the One who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty. Yet at the end of the book of Revelation we read these words again, this time spoken by Jesus Christ: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:13).
In Isaiah 43:11, God speaks: "I, even I, am Jehovah; and there is no savior besides Me." Did you realize the title "Savior" is reserved in Scripture for God? This verse says so in the plainest possible terms. "I am Jehovah; and there is no savior besides Me." That is why Paul, writing to Titus, did not shrink from applying the name God and the word Savior both to Jesus Christ. Titus 2:11-13 says this:

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.


Zechariah 12:10 includes a most interesting prophecy. In context, this is Jehovah speaking. Verse 4 tells us so. Then verse 10 says, "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first- born." Who was the One who was pierced? It was Christ. And John 19:37 specifically applies this text to Christ.
Deuteronomy 10:17 says, "[Jehovah] your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God." Yet Revelation 17:14 applies the title "Lord of Lords" to the lamb, Jesus Christ: "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

Christ is eternal, as we noted in Micah 5:2, and in His titles, "the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
He is omnipresent. In Matthew 18:20, He said, "Where two or three have gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst"; and in Matthew 28:20, He promised, "Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
He is omniscient. On the night Christ was betrayed, the disciples told Him, "Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God" (Jn. 16:30). Later, Peter appealed to Christ's omniscience in his own defense, John 21:17: "Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, 'Do you love Me?' And he said to Him, 'Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.'" In Revelation 2:23 Christ describes Himself in these terms: "I am He who searches the minds and hearts.
He is omnipotent. Philippians 3:21 says He "will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself." Hebrews 1:3 says He "upholds all things by the word of His power."
He is immutable, unchanging. This attribute could never be true of any created being. Yet Hebrews 1:10-12 says, speaking of Christ,

Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands; they will perish, but Thou remainest; And they all will become old as a garment, and as a mantle Thou wilt roll them up; As a garment they will also be changed. But Thou art the same, And Thy years will not come to an end.


Hebrews 13:8 is a familiar affirmation of the immutability of Christ: "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever."
In summary, Scripture says Christ embodies every attribute that is true of Jehovah, Colossians 2:9: "For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form." And Hebrews 1:3 says Christ "is the radiance of [Jehovah's] glory and the exact representation of His nature. Jesus is Jehovah God.

Jesus does works that God alone can do. For example, Christ created "all things." John 1:3 says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." If that is true, then He himself could not be a created being.
Colossians 1:16 says the same thing in more detail, ruling out the possibility He could be any kind of archangel: "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him." Verse 17 takes it a step further and pictures Him not only as Creator but also as Sustainer: "And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
He oversees the operation of divine providence. In John 17:2, Christ prays to the Father, "Even as Thou gavest [the Son] authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give eternal life. Ephesians 1:22 echoes that: "And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church."
He forgives sin. This was a huge controversy in Jesus' earthly ministry. Matt 9:2-7 and Mark 2:5-10 give the accounts of how the Pharisees were offended that He forgave sins. In Mark 2:7 they ask, "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?" They understood clearly the implications of His authority.
He has the power to raise the dead and judge final judgment. In John 5:22, Jesus said, "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son." That is a very explicit claim of deity, and in verse 24, Jesus even makes the basis of judgment the issue of whether someone hears His word or not. Acts 10:42 says Christ "has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead." Acts 17:31 says the same thing. 2 Timothy 4:1 says "Christ Jesus . . . is to judge the living and the dead."
It is He who will bring us into the fullness of glorification. Philippians 3:21 says He "will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory." In Revelation 21:5 He says, "Behold, I am making all things new."

Jesus Himself in Matthew 4:10 said told the Devil, "Begone, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'" If Jesus Himself were only a creature, He would have been guilty of hypocrisy, for He himself received worship. Not once did Jesus ever rebuke anyone for worshiping Him. Never did He refuse anyone's worship. In fact, He corrected those who scolded others for worshiping Him, as in John 10, when Martha was angry that Mary sat at His feet. And in Matthew 26, He rebuked the disciples for being indignant that a woman had anointed Him with expensive ointment.
Listen carefully to these verses, and remember that in every case Jesus welcomed the worship that was offered to Him:

Matthew 14:33—"And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, 'You are certainly God's Son!'"
John 9:38—"And [the man born blind] said, 'Lord, I believe.' And he worshiped Him."
Matthew 28:9—"And behold, Jesus met them and [greeted the women coming from His tomb]. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."
Matthew 28:17-18—"And when [the eleven disciples] saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.'"
John 20:28-29—"Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!' [Now listen to Jesus' response to Thomas' calling Him God:] Jesus said to him, 'Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.'"


Contrast Jesus' response to worship with Peter's response when "Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him" (Acts 10:25). Verse 26 says, "Peter raised him up, saying, 'Stand up; I too am just a man.'" Acts 14:11-18 tells of a similar episode in Paul's ministry, when he and Barnabas refused the worship of an entire crowd. Then in Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9, we have angels refusing worship from the Apostle John. In 22:9 the angel says, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book; worship God."
Scripture explicitly states that the Son is to be worshiped. John 5:22-23 says, "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." Jesus placed Himself on the highest possible level when He made Himself an object of our faith, John 14:1: "Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me."
You want ultimate proof that Jesus is not an angel? Hebrews 1:6 says that when the Father brought the Son into the world, He said, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."
Let's move on to the two final lines of argument that prove Jesus is God. I have saved the strongest for last. For if Jesus is God, you would expect the Bible to say so in the strongest of terms. And in fact it does

Jesus Himself claims to be God.
Finally, if Jesus is God, we might expect Him to say so. Have you ever wondered why He didn't simply state, "I am God?" and put an end to any possibility of confusion?
Actually, He did. What He says in John 8:58 was to His Jewish audience a far more explicit statement than if He had merely said "I am God." It is important to see this passage in its context. In verse 53, we see that the Pharisees were becoming uncomfortable with Jesus' claims, beginning to suspect that He was putting Himself on a level of authority no mere man would have any right to. They said:

53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?"
54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';
55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I shall be a liar like you, but I do know Him, and keep His word.
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.

Notice that these men understood precisely what Jesus was saying. And because He obviously also understood what they were asking, His reply is all that much more significant. He was telling them He was God, using the name Jehovah Himself had revealed to Moses at the burning bush, "I AM." He could have made no stronger claim of deity. If that had not been His meaning, if he were claiming only to be the firstborn angel, He would have said, "before Abraham was born, I was."
The gospel of John includes a whole series of statements Jesus made about Himself using this name "I AM"—I am the way, the truth, and the life (Jn. 14:6); I am the good shepherd; I am the door; I am the bread of life; I am the light of the world. Each one of these statements, studied in context, reveals that He was making claim after claim of absolute deity.
The biblical evidence for the deity of Christ is conclusive. It is overwhelming, irrefutable evidence. In fact, what we have covered here is only a representative sample. I haven't even mentioned John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." That, and many other similar passages could be adduced to prove even more conclusively that according to Scripture, He is God.
So much evidence cannot be swept aside or ignored. You either believe it, or you condemn yourself to an unthinkable eternity. In fact, Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins" (Jn. 8:24). There Jesus holds forth His "I am"—without a predicate—as the object of our faith. He is very obviously setting Himself in the place of God, and He can do that only because He is God. Those who know that Scripture is the Word of God can only believe, and join in the worship of Him at whose name every knee shall bow.

it is all a matter of what you believe son

[megadoc1]

this makes us feel nice, the thought of ultimate justice....
but a quick question, the person who is a victim of the rape, who lives a life of hate, anger and depression. Who then indulges in behaviour that is "worthy" of being cast into hell. Does this person get condemned??

in Christianity we learn that all men are condemned, none is righteous and are in need of a redeemer ,it have nothing to do with what you did.... the same way when a person receives God's saving grace they did nothing to deserve it ..so I will say a person going to hell is not because of the things they did but because of the choice they make and they are
1 to receive God's saving grace (the work of Jesus Christ on the cross)
2 to reject or not recieve God's saving grace

when you receive God's saving grace your name is written in the book of life.
when you reject it you only continue never having "life" just as before

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

so even when one is judged according to their works (good or bad) , if your name is not written in the book of life then you are in trouble.
how do you get your name written in the book of life ? by accepting Jesus ..he is life.

[konartis]

nothing is real, when we die our eyes close and we will never wake up anywhere...think of it as sleeping, you close your eyes but in this case you never awake...thats it! people create this after life to comfort their selves of the tought of dying, but theres nothing after we die, it doesnt make sense at all!

[turbohead]

This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God

Ch2 v2.

150. Verily, those who disbelieve in Allâh and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allâh and His Messengers (by believing in Allâh and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, "We believe in some but reject others," and wish to adopt a way in between.

151. They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment.

152. And those who believe in Allâh and His Messengers and make no distinction between any of them (Messengers), We shall give them their rewards, and Allâh is Ever Oft­Forgiving, Most Merciful.

153. The people of the Scripture (Jews) ask you to cause a book to descend upon them from heaven. Indeed they asked Mûsa (Moses) for even greater than that, when they said: "Show us Allâh in public," but they were struck with thunder clap and lightning for their wickedness. Then they worshipped the calf even after clear proofs, evidences, and signs had come to them. (Even) so We forgave them. And We gave Mûsa (Moses) a clear proof of authority.

154. And for their covenant, We raised over them the Mount and (on the other occasion) We said: "Enter the gate prostrating (or bowing) with humility;" and We commanded them: "Transgress not (by doing worldly works on) the Sabbath (Saturday)." And We took from them a firm covenant .

155. Because of their breaking the covenant, and of their rejecting the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, and of their killing the Prophets unjustly, and of their saying: "Our hearts are wrapped (with coverings, i.e. we do not understand what the Messengers say)" - nay, Allâh has set a seal upon their hearts because of their disbelief, so they believe not but a little.

156. And because of their (Jews) disbelief and uttering against Maryam (Mary) a grave false charge (that she has committed illegal sexual intercourse);

157. And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allâh," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]:

158. But Allâh raised him ['Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allâh is Ever All­Powerful, All­Wise.

159. And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allâh and a human being], before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them

Ch.4 v. 150-159 of Quran

110. (Remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection). "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with Rûh­ul­Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)] so that you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and when I taught you writing, Al­Hikmah (the power of understanding), the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel); and when you made out of the clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, and you healed those born blind, and the lepers by My Permission, and when you brought forth the dead by My Permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from you (when they resolved to kill you) since you came unto them with clear proofs, and the disbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' "

111. And when I (Allâh) put in the hearts of Al-Hawârîeen (the disciples) [of 'Iesa (Jesus)] to believe in Me and My Messenger, they said: "We believe. And bear witness that we are Muslims."

112. (Remember) when Al-Hawârîûn (the disciples) said: "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Can your Lord send down to us a table spread (with food) from heaven?" 'Iesa (Jesus) said: "Fear Allâh, if you are indeed believers."

113. They said: "We wish to eat thereof and to be stronger in Faith, and to know that you have indeed told us the truth and that we ourselves be its witnesses."

114. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Allâh, our Lord! Send us from heaven a table spread (with food) that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a festival and a sign from You; and provide us sustenance, for You are the Best of sustainers."

115. Allâh said: "I am going to send it down unto you, but if any of you after that disbelieves, then I will punish him with a torment such as I have not inflicted on anyone among (all) the 'Alamîn (mankind and jinns)."

116. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner­self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All­Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

117. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).

118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All­Mighty, the All­Wise ."

119. Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).

120. To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things.

Ch.5 v110-120

there are many more Ayats or verses of the Holy Quran that give strong defense that Esa(Jesus) never claimed Godship or being his son but a Prophet of Allah.

to end it all wee look at this chapter. in the long run its plain as this....

1 Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)to these Mushrikoon and Kafiroon): "O Al-Kafiroon (disbelievers in Allah, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)!
2 "I worship not that which you worship,
3 "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
4 "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
5 "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
6 "To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islamic Monotheism)."

Ch 109. v. 1-6

[matthewmazda]

nothing is real, when we die our eyes close and we will never wake up anywhere...think of it as sleeping, you close your eyes but in this case you never awake...thats it! people create this after life to comfort their selves of the tought of dying, but theres nothing after we die, it doesnt make sense at all!

So when you die thats it, no hell no Heaven , well i Suppose there is no evil then

[SR-B14]

I am not a religious fanatic that goes around forcing my beliefs on others,everybody has a right to their own opinions, I do go to church for fellowship with my wife and kids,that's my choice.
But I would just like to say, I would rather believe in Jesus Christ and when I die there is nothing,(I would have not lost anything,according to some tuners there is no heaven or hell, so it won't have anybody to say" I told you so") than to NOT believe and he DOES exist, then what?

[d spike]

Wow.

oh, wow.

Thanks, megadoc, for proving your Christian point of view to be correct by quoting from Christian scripture. That there's irrefutable proof, eh?
Well, looks like you have now got company, in the form of the Muslim gentleman who supports his opinion with Muslim scripture. You two should keep each other happy...

sigh

[d spike]

I am not a religious fanatic that goes around forcing my beliefs on others,everybody has a right to their own opinions, I do go to church for fellowship with my wife and kids,that's my choice.
But I would just like to say, I would rather believe in Jesus Christ and when I die there is nothing,(I would have not lost anything,according to some tuners there is no heaven or hell, so it won't have anybody to say" I told you so") than to NOT believe and he DOES exist, then what?

That has always been a seemingly valid point that Christians raise in debate...

...but wouldn't it be more important to focus on what we do here, rather that where we might go afterward... especially since it is claimed that this latter point depends heavily on the former - demonstrating our values by our actions and interactions, not wasting time quibbling over what reward we look forward to?

[rossi]

I rem an imam telling me that when you die you get 70 virgins and one orgasm last 10,000 years.
So I'm dying to go have sex?

[devrat]

I am not a religious fanatic that goes around forcing my beliefs on others,everybody has a right to their own opinions, I do go to church for fellowship with my wife and kids,that's my choice.
But I would just like to say, I would rather believe in Jesus Christ and when I die there is nothing,(I would have not lost anything,according to some tuners there is no heaven or hell, so it won't have anybody to say" I told you so") than to NOT believe and he DOES exist, then what?

That has always been a seemingly valid point that Christians raise in debate...

...but wouldn't it be more important to focus on what we do here, rather that where we might go afterward... especially since it is claimed that this latter point depends heavily on the former - demonstrating our values by our actions and interactions, not wasting time quibbling over what reward we look forward to?

Exactly Spike, why worry about what is unknown when what does matter is where you are right now and how you live your life. My belief is simple..........."Hands that help are greater than hands that pray".
I would believe in a God who would choose to save people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the pattern of their words. I think he would prefer an honest and righteous atheist to a TV preacher and regular church member whose every word is God, God, God, and whose every deed is foul, foul, foul.

From what I am reading (and I maybe wrong) is that people are becoming more religious "just in case".

[devrat]

This seems right on soooooooooo many levels

[~Vēġó~]

^^^true dat!!!!!!!!!!!

but what does Christianity and Islam say about where man comes from? and if when they die they go to heaven or hell (what goes? a soul?) then what accounts for more and more humans being born? where they coming from?

[c@ri$$@]

I am not a religious fanatic that goes around forcing my beliefs on others,everybody has a right to their own opinions, I do go to church for fellowship with my wife and kids,that's my choice.
But I would just like to say, I would rather believe in Jesus Christ and when I die there is nothing,(I would have not lost anything,according to some tuners there is no heaven or hell, so it won't have anybody to say" I told you so") than to NOT believe and he DOES exist, then what?

That has always been a seemingly valid point that Christians raise in debate...

...but wouldn't it be more important to focus on what we do here, rather that where we might go afterward... especially since it is claimed that this latter point depends heavily on the former - demonstrating our values by our actions and interactions, not wasting time quibbling over what reward we look forward to?

Exactly Spike, why worry about what is unknown when what does matter is where you are right now and how you live your life. My belief is simple..........."Hands that help are greater than hands that pray".
I would believe in a God who would choose to save people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the pattern of their words. I think he would prefer an honest and righteous atheist to a TV preacher and regular church member whose every word is God, God, God, and whose every deed is foul, foul, foul.

From what I am reading (and I maybe wrong) is that people are becoming more religious "just in case".

How do you measure the power of prayer?

[devrat]

Sorry c@ri$$@....I should rephrase.........."Hands that help are Holier than hands that pray".

[bluefete]

What sort of questions are these?

Given the fact that so many of you tuners do not believe in God, does this mean that you do not believe in the existence of hell.

Doesn't the very concept of Hell rely on the existence of a belief in a god (who "created" such a place)? You really expect there to be atheists who believe in a Hell in the afterlife?

And if there is no hell, does this also mean that there is no Satan?

Ohh... it gets better... of course, Bluefete, there are also atheists out there who refuse to believe in God or the existence of Hell... but believe that Satan exists...
Good grief. What exactly were you trying to ask?

Anyway...
Based on what I have read here, I think I will stick my oar in...
Many a theologian has pointed out that most Christians have a problem understanding fully two concepts: God is love, and the existence of Hell... and in trying to accept one, they invariably get muddled up about the other.
Those who appreciate God's acceptance and love for his pet puny earthlings, in their difficulty in marrying this concept to one of eternal torment, become convinced that everyone gets forgiven in the end... even the guys with red underwear, forks, and slick haircuts - according to some early writers.
Those who firmly believe in holy fire and brimstone justice, get rather confused where infinite love is concerned... and solve the problem by turning our existence into an "Us vs. Them" affair - "Gawd loves us... all ya'all sinners is agoin' tuh Hell..."

A proper explanation relies on the clear understanding of "free will", as well as a clear understanding of why Hell exists - which no fundamentalist can properly explain, as their faith system is hinged heavily on vengeful justice.

Those who believe in God should be able to point out that us folks were meant to be with him. In this existence, we decide where we wish to spend the next one - and we do so through what we continually attempt to achieve. What our lives and our hearts focus on will become our destination.
St. Augustine said it best: your love is your weight. What you have loved in this life will take you to the next one... a love of others, the essence of the Creation, will take you to the Creator. A love of self will ensure that you will be rewarded by the company of exactly that. Hell is not a place where you will be surrounded by old friends who enjoyed similar bad habits, spending eternity bumping gums about the bad old days, wondering which lucky bugger made it to the five-star party upstairs... Hell is the place where God isn't, the place where one who strove to serve himself, will achieve. In this lies the truest torment of Hell... for to spend eternity in the company of oneself, when we were made for a totally opposite existence... and to be fully aware of all this... regretting the decision made, yet incapable of changing one's mind - for the time of decision-making has passed... this sense of loneliness is the essence that is referred to as Hell.

Those who love to quote the bible can look to find where Jesus spoke of false charity to acquire public acclaim: "that is their reward" were his words... and that is what he meant.

Those who do not share the same concept of God as others... so what if they don't believe in an eternal punishment? Is it not enough that they strive to achieve that which is good, and spurn that which is wrong? In doing so, are they less as "good" as religious goodies, who attempt good because they are scared shitless of going to Hell? Sounds to me that those who are doing good for the sake of goodness are more on track to the Creator than those who do so out of fear.

Spike: As usual deep insight coupled with your unique wit.

If hell (the place of eternal torment) does not exist, then there is no point in trying to live a good life. It would not matter what we did (good or bad) in the end because when you die that is it. There will be no afterlife and nothing to worry about.

However, f the reverse is true, then many people better start to worry.

[turbohead]

^^^true dat!!!!!!!!!!!

but what does Christianity and Islam say about where man comes from? and if when they die they go to heaven or hell (what goes? a soul?) then what accounts for more and more humans being born? where they coming from?

for the first question out of the little knowledge i have, everything comes from God and without His sustenance we wont survive, God created man out of clay/earth and breathed life ie the soul, in arabic the "ruh", into it. we the muslim believe that the body will at the time of death be returned to the earth and the soul will go to "barzaq" kind of like the waiting room until the day of judgement which all will be ressurected and be questioned and given or book of deeds in its respective hand.
we are firm in this belief because in the Quran God mentions that He says unto something be and it is.....

[mamoo_pagal]

Spike: As usual deep insight coupled with your unique wit.

If hell (the place of eternal torment) does not exist, [color=#FF0040]then there is no point in trying to live a good life. It would not matter what we did (good or bad) in the end because when you die that is it. There will be no afterlife and nothing to worry about.

However, f the reverse is true, then many people better start to worry.
[/color]

and here lies the problem, so because there is the possibility of no hell then no point in trying to live a good life??
So let me guess, the people who live a good life and don't believe in hell are full of pride right?
You need to examine yourself if you truly believe that people should only live a good life because of the existence of "hell" and "heaven". If one does good to have a "reward" or doing it out of fear, well then that person is just hypocrite
I really hope you don't teach children this nonsense.......

[megadoc1]

mammoo
what is good ? who determine what is good?
and how does one go about "living a good life"?

[mamoo_pagal]

probably you should ask blufete...........as I was quoting his contribution
Based on his response that was the next question I had for him

[devrat]

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein

[mamoo_pagal]

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein

oh noo how do you dare quote a heathen such as Einstein

[megadoc1]

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein

who determines this?
and since he says "should" ...I assume that it is not so and maybe it never was.... and could never be.
so who determines what is good and acceptable human behaviour?

because as of now

“What may be reasonable in India may not be reasonable in
France, and what may be reasonable
in America may be “satanic” in Iran.”

[~Vēġó~]

^^^true dat!!!!!!!!!!!

but what does Christianity and Islam say about where man comes from? and if when they die they go to heaven or hell (what goes? a soul?) then what accounts for more and more humans being born? where they coming from?

for the first question out of the little knowledge i have, everything comes from God and without His sustenance we wont survive, God created man out of clay/earth and breathed life ie the soul, in arabic the "ruh", into it. we the muslim believe that the body will at the time of death be returned to the earth and the soul will go to "barzaq" kind of like the waiting room until the day of judgement which all will be ressurected and be questioned and given or book of deeds in its respective hand.
we are firm in this belief because in the Quran God mentions that He says unto something be and it is.....

thanks for the response!!! may I ask of what would become of the "ruh" after judgement?

and devrat it's like "hands that serve are holier than lips that pray"

[d spike]

why worry about what is unknown when what does matter is where you are right now and how you live your life. My belief is simple..........."Hands that help are greater than hands that pray".

Quite right. Worrying about a future uncertainty that (by its very nature) cannot be proven, only serves to promote the growth of grey hair. We are here for a reason... Our awareness of the tangible, and our interactive ability or co-operation produces changes in our environment - these changes can be identified as positive, progressive, lasting for generations even. Surely, this (as well as our innate sense of right and wrong) was given to us for a reason, a purpose... or were we meant to discard them (and the possibility of making our world a better place, closer to the envisioned ideal) in preference to growing calloused knees?

I would believe in a God who would choose to save people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the pattern of their words.

While I agree with the overall sense of this sentence (after all, even Jesus said: "Blessed be the peace-makers"... He never said "peace-lovers" or "those who pray for peace") I would like to suggest you consider a change in the words used in the emboldened type. Simple-minded folk are satisfied with the concept of "judgement"; after all, it makes sense to them (you do wrong and get punished, or if you do right, you get a really big cookie) and as it falls within the bounds of being theologically correct, it is left alone. However, when the matter is studied properly, one realises that it isn't God actively "choosing" who is "saved"... rather, it is we who do it to ourselves! (YOU LITTLE BASTARD, I SAW WHAT YOU DID... TO HELL WITH YOU... draws line through name... WHO'S NEXT? )

From what I am reading (and I maybe wrong) is that people are becoming more religious "just in case".

And I thought it was just me...

If hell (the place of eternal torment) does not exist, then there is no point in trying to live a good life. It would not matter what we did (good or bad) in the end because when you die that is it. There will be no afterlife and nothing to worry about.

However, f the reverse is true, then many people better start to worry.

Clearly, the belief in the existence of Hell is the deciding factor in doing good for many of the "believers"... hence my earlier remark:

Those who do not share the same concept of God as others... so what if they don't believe in an eternal punishment? Is it not enough that they strive to achieve that which is good, and spurn that which is wrong? In doing so, are they less as "good" as religious goodies, who attempt good because they are scared shitless of going to Hell? Sounds to me that those who are doing good for the sake of goodness are more on track to the Creator than those who do so out of fear.

[devrat]

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein

who determines this?
and since he says "should" ...I assume that it is not so and maybe it never was.... and could never be.
so who determines what is good and acceptable human behaviour?

because as of now

“What may be reasonable in India may not be reasonable in
France, and what may be reasonable
in America may be “satanic” in Iran.”

The ethical and moral behavior guidelines come from the knowledge that we are all part of a human community. We are not isolated individuals. We rely on others for much of our human experience, especially our social interactions with others. Just as a rule 'thou shalt not kill' makes sense for any social organism, the rules for treating others with respect and recognition make sense for the human social animal. We are all unique individuals, with unique wants and desires, but our lives are intertwined with everyone around us. When the rules for moral behavior come from acknowledging our social structure then some of the social and ethical problems will be seen in a new light and our social structure will be better equipped to deal with those that behave immorally or unethically.

[d spike]

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein

who determines this?
and since he says "should" ...I assume that it is not so and maybe it never was.... and could never be.
so who determines what is good and acceptable human behaviour?

because as of now

“What may be reasonable in India may not be reasonable in
France, and what may be reasonable
in America may be “satanic” in Iran.”

The ethical and moral behavior guidelines come from the knowledge that we are all part of a human community. We are not isolated individuals. We rely on others for much of our human experience, especially our social interactions with others. Just as a rule 'thou shalt not kill' makes sense for any social organism, the rules for treating others with respect and recognition make sense for the human social animal. We are all unique individuals, with unique wants and desires, but our lives are intertwined with everyone around us. When the rules for moral behavior come from acknowledging our social structure then some of the social and ethical problems will be seen in a new light and our social structure will be better equipped to deal with those that behave immorally or unethically.

Very well put.


He... should... be able to understand that...

[megadoc1]

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein

who determines this?
and since he says "should" ...I assume that it is not so and maybe it never was.... and could never be.
so who determines what is good and acceptable human behaviour?

because as of now

“What may be reasonable in India may not be reasonable in
France, and what may be reasonable
in America may be “satanic” in Iran.”

The ethical and moral behavior guidelines come from the knowledge that we are all part of a human community. We are not isolated individuals. We rely on others for much of our human experience, especially our social interactions with others. Just as a rule 'thou shalt not kill' makes sense for any social organism, the rules for treating others with respect and recognition make sense for the human social animal. We are all unique individuals, with unique wants and desires, but our lives are intertwined with everyone around us. When the rules for moral behavior come from acknowledging our social structure then some of the social and ethical problems will be seen in a new light and our social structure will be better equipped to deal with those that behave immorally or unethically.

but If morality could indeed be universally
determined through such reasoning,
wouldn’t people from any nation
be able to arrive at the same moral
propositions?
and who gives the rule thou shall not kill? and why do you think it makes sense?
what about the rules that comes from a social structure where people eat one another?

we still haven't address this

“What may be reasonable in India may not be reasonable in
France, and what may be reasonable
in America may be “satanic” in Iran.”