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Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby pugboy » November 26th, 2022, 12:45 pm

prakkie trying too hard
he need to be calm and confident like rlm

MaxPower wrote:
pugboy wrote:he was just playing stupid and prakash fall for it


Yep exactly that especially when he pauses with that dumb look on his face with his short answers.

But Prakash forcing his emotions too much. A waste of energy.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby Val » November 28th, 2022, 2:07 pm

Not sure if osha and dpp could charge, or recommend to charge.


Yes they can.

typical uninformed CEO responses

his operational managers cheeks clapping but they'll never be put on stand


Michael Wei is only the Maintenance Manager, he is not the CEO or "in charge". He is somewhat senior though, and retains his role from Petrotrin days.
Usually Middle Management are the ones hung out to dry to appease the public, aggrieved and keep the business running. One wonders where are the Directors in this.

I could see Michael Wei restraining himself from cussing up everybody in that COE. IYKYK


He tried hard lol, he was uncharacteristically calm considering how he normally is.

Shouldn't this have triggered some sort of response from ODPM and Ministry of Nat Security due to the nature of this disaster?


Only if their ERP calls for that type of tiered response. It's not required by law.

so did somebody loose out something in the other riser that they weren’t working on?


No, the root cause was the manual deflation of the plug leading to a sudden equalisation in the pressure between the habitat, surrounding sea and the pipeline pressure. There are many contributory factors, but that's essentially it.

But Prakash forcing his emotions too much. A waste of energy.


I want to believe Prakash is an intelligent man. He knows that this was being televised in the middle of World Cup. The only way he can get this to be aired outside of the scheduled times and to get Trini ppl talking about it is to add a little bachannal. It was also a sweat down, a typical witness badgering to press out the truth, but Michael is quite experienced and hard to pressure.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby timelapse » November 28th, 2022, 2:51 pm

One director- famous lessons teacher in south known for threatening to kick up people arse.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby Animal Pak » November 28th, 2022, 9:57 pm

And pelt people children with dust proof chalk.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby antlind » November 29th, 2022, 7:00 am

timelapse wrote:One director- famous lessons teacher in south known for threatening to kick up people arse.


Cowboy X

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby sMASH » December 5th, 2022, 1:12 pm

only time i get to vibes the CoE, was in time to hear the ali fella, say that paria wanted the line pump out fully, and he decide that he will pump put just enough to do the wuk and use the rest of the liquid as the plug to prevent the working section being exposed to atmosphere from the other berth.

the 'delta p' caused the men to suck in the pipe. the failure of the plug, exposing the working section to atmospheric pressure is was caused the delta p. the ali fella decided to let the liquid function as the plug for the wuk.


physics wise, it coudl work. but industrial practise wise, we dont rely on that for isolation. we use positive isolation, which means some solid device that creates a physical immovable barrier.

what they neeeded to do was pump out the line completely and blind the other end to atmospheric pressure. woudl take a few hours more pumping and more bilge capacity either by shore tanks or barge slops tanks, but it woudl be safe and prevent risk to life.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby pugboy » December 5th, 2022, 1:14 pm

that not sounding good

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby sMASH » December 5th, 2022, 1:23 pm

pugboy wrote:that not sounding good

the paria lawyer, went on and forward. then the chairman went back to confirm that what he said and get it clarified for the non industrial minded.

that is hook line and sinker for the DEATHS. they may punish paria and lmcs for the poor industrial practices. but the deaths is solely on the delta p. the delta p is solely on the plug failure, the plug failure is cause the liquid used, and that was ali decision to do,,, against parias procedures.

he alone to blame for the eventual deaths.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby 16 cycles » December 5th, 2022, 2:09 pm

Jah - "we jus sign the JSA sometimes to get things moving"....

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby pugboy » December 5th, 2022, 2:22 pm

if you ever fill a clear hose with water to use as a spirit level and cap both ends with fingers and have them at diff heights you will see how it bounces pretty violently when you release fingers
imagine a 36” column of water like a piston pushing and sucking

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby 16 cycles » December 5th, 2022, 2:45 pm

bleeding hydraulic brakes also demonstrates how 'violent' that process can be - car and/or bicycle

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby sMASH » December 5th, 2022, 3:27 pm

The hardest ting is, if it was filled high up, it would have been very heavy and stable.
But they pumped out jusssst enough to do the job, and that would have put the level closer to the horizontal section. Now, when they presurue up the habitat, thst would force the liquid level lower, as the other end is above sea level so atmospheric pressure.

But the liquid was not water, it was petrochemicals... So it's density was less, so the pressure to force it out would be less.
So pressuring up the habitat with the lower liquid level might have been enough to blow it out the other end and ingress the water into the habitat end.



This will go down as one of the text book industrial accidents that they teach new recruits of...





That Is with putting the lives of the guys at risk.
They potentially could have died instantaneously.


But paria has to justify the rescue efforts or lack there of.

Ali hadda take blame for causing the accident.
But paria hadda explain preventing rescue.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby pugboy » December 5th, 2022, 3:58 pm

so it may be possible that the compressor was running too long and it blew out the liquid on the other side and everything started washing in on the habitat side and then whatever bouncing of the water column inside woulda start the delta p sucking bacchanal ?

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby timelapse » December 5th, 2022, 6:37 pm

sMASH wrote:only time i get to vibes the CoE, was in time to hear the ali fella, say that paria wanted the line pump out fully, and he decide that he will pump put just enough to do the wuk and use the rest of the liquid as the plug to prevent the working section being exposed to atmosphere from the other berth.

the 'delta p' caused the men to suck in the pipe. the failure of the plug, exposing the working section to atmospheric pressure is was caused the delta p. the ali fella decided to let the liquid function as the plug for the wuk.


physics wise, it coudl work. but industrial practise wise, we dont rely on that for isolation. we use positive isolation, which means some solid device that creates a physical immovable barrier.

what they neeeded to do was pump out the line completely and blind the other end to atmospheric pressure. woudl take a few hours more pumping and more bilge capacity either by shore tanks or barge slops tanks, but it woudl be safe and prevent risk to life.
Lessons teacher I mentioned is a bawse in physics.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby sMASH » December 5th, 2022, 7:00 pm

pugboy wrote:so it may be possible that the compressor was running too long and it blew out the liquid on the other side and everything started washing in on the habitat side and then whatever bouncing of the water column inside woulda start the delta p sucking bacchanal ?

the compressor would be running to pressure up the habitat or it will ingress when they open up any valve or blind or plug. on the riser

i want to assume that when they remove what ever plug, that the liquid level was low enough that the positive pressure from the compressor was able to force the oil down, to meet the horizontal section. so when the air get to travel along the horizontal section, it came up eventually and berth 5, bubble up(big bubble) and u got ur slushing/slugging around fo the liquid that pulled them down.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby sMASH » December 5th, 2022, 7:09 pm

another curious data.

when roda showed the rov camera image, it showed that the eblow was like 65ft or so down, and the first blockage was about 80 ft into the line.
the vertical line is 55ft from sea level, with 10ft above. so, the distance of the first blockage was 15ft along the horizontal stretch.

the image that stuart young showed the day after, it shows the first blockage 120ft into the piping. thats a difference of 35ft.

what caused the immovable air tanks to move 35ft?

but, i dont think thats a total of 120ft, i think thats 120ft along the horizontal section. so that the first blockage from the video to the young press release was 105ft,



the fella who blamed piper on the mic sitting with phillip, had said that subsea was called in, comercial divers with professional equipment, to blind and do what ever, while the lmcs divers were actively blocked from rescue diving.

i want to belive, that the new divers, flushed the line from the oil and forced the tanks further down the line, on paria's instruction.



cause, boodram was swming up and down the virtical line, awaiting rescue. but when the rov image showed, the level of the liquid was at least 10 ft below the mouth of the line. u cant swim up to that.


info missing and tings not lining up with paria's response after lmcs got prevented from rescue.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby pugboy » December 5th, 2022, 7:14 pm

who at coe gonna ask this question ?

sMASH wrote:another curious data.

when roda showed the rov camera image, it showed that the eblow was like 65ft or so down, and the first blockage was about 80 ft into the line.
the vertical line is 55ft from sea level, with 10ft above. so, the distance of the first blockage was 15ft along the horizontal stretch.

the image that stuart young showed the day after, it shows the first blockage 120ft into the piping. thats a difference of 35ft.

what caused the immovable air tanks to move 35ft?

but, i dont think thats a total of 120ft, i think thats 120ft along the horizontal section. so that the first blockage from the video to the young press release was 105ft,



the fella who blamed piper on the mic sitting with phillip, had said that subsea was called in, comercial divers with professional equipment, to blind and do what ever, while the lmcs divers were actively blocked from rescue diving.

i want to belive, that the new divers, flushed the line from the oil and forced the tanks further down the line, on paria's instruction.



cause, boodram was swming up and down the virtical line, awaiting rescue. but when the rov image showed, the level of the liquid was at least 10 ft below the mouth of the line. u cant swim up to that.


info missing and tings not lining up with paria's response after lmcs got prevented from rescue.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby Chimera » December 5th, 2022, 9:15 pm

Didn't boodram say he use a rope or chain to try to pull himself up and eventually two rescue divers came into the chamber and pulled him up as he couldn't come out himself

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby 16 cycles » December 5th, 2022, 9:39 pm

Phone Surgeon wrote:Didn't boodram say he use a rope or chain to try to pull himself up and eventually two rescue divers came into the chamber and pulled him up as he couldn't come out himself


This is what i remembered, he had to wait a while for someone to hear him and assist.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby sMASH » December 6th, 2022, 12:25 am

clarification:

apparently, the riser at berth 5 was blinded off.
they had a line connected to that riser, forcing air inside, to blow the liquid out of the riser at berth 6.
so i can see where air can be forced into the horizontal line. apparently that line is undulating, so there would be regions where air can be trapped.

the plug would have been placed and inflated on top the liquid level at berth 6, using the liquid as a support of sorts.

from the time the plug was installed, to the time the incident happened could be up to 14 days. about 7 of those days they were away from that job, for what ever reason. the plug could have been losing pressure, and thus stability. they had no idea of the status of the liquid and pressures under the plug, i.e. between the plug and the blind at berth 5.
they assumed since no liquid or movement on top the plug, it was holding and conditions were the same.
manufacture stipulates the plug pressure be checked every 4 hrs. and more frequent, if the job is more critical.

while not vented to atmosphere, i could still see the air in the air spaces, displacing up into berth 5. and there being a difference in liquid height for berth 5 and 6, and the liquid try to equalize and slug forward, pulling the guys in.

i can also see someone starting the compressor at berth 5, sending the liquid level up at 6, and when it falls back down, it upsets the air trapped in the undulations, and that helping pull the pressure down at berth 6

or, someone could had opened the bleed at the berth 5, that depressurized the backing pressure , thus letting the liquid slug forward and pull the guys in.




incorrtech was stated to have put forward a cause for the delta p, as the technical investigator. but that conclusion was not made public.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby sMASH » December 6th, 2022, 12:34 am

16 cycles wrote:
Phone Surgeon wrote:Didn't boodram say he use a rope or chain to try to pull himself up and eventually two rescue divers came into the chamber and pulled him up as he couldn't come out himself


This is what i remembered, he had to wait a while for someone to hear him and assist.

hope i get time to watch boodram statement... only now finish watch the after lunch session of today.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby Slartibartfast » December 7th, 2022, 12:58 am

ruffneck_12 wrote:
16 cycles wrote:
mad wrote:



Ty for sharing this..agreed @ Pug...excellent video


This is a rel good explanation. This is the first time I see a diagram explanation and it had to come from someone 8 months after in a another country. Imagine that

Really good vid but there are (understandably) some inaccuracies. There were so many little things that went wrong here that it was just a worst case scenario.

1. There was a tank of pressurised air used to keep the pressure inside of the habitat. There was a mechanical plug attached via a short cable to a inflatable plug. The short cable was only sized to lift the inflatable plug out and not to withstand the force of the potential deltaP event. This was a mistake. These cables need to be supplied to take the full force of the plug. That cable is there in case of plug failure. The attachment point on the plug are even rated to take that stress.

2. From what I understand the job was to remove part of the riser, repair the joint and then replace the riser.

3. The line was filled with oil so they had to pump out some oil before they could remove the riser and install the plug. The riser was 25ft and they needed 5 ft to install the plugs so were supposed to pump down about 30ft or approx. 30 barrels. LMCS methodology had specified 300 barrels to pump down. Paria monitored and recorded the pumping down of about 300 barrels so they were aware of the situation.

4. IDK who installed the plugs but I think it wasn't the divers. They are accustomed installing the inflatable plug against liquid to prevent the liklihood of a deltaP event which kind of makes sense. The divers removed the mechanical plug with no problem but when they started deflating the inflatable plug, as soon as the friction was no longer there, the deltaP sucked it in and the cable holding on to it snapped. They got sucked in but the compressed gas tank was still on and would have equalised the air pressure inside there after the incident. That's why the habitat looked like nothing happened when the other divers came looking for them.

5. The pipe is 2.5ft wide and extends for 1200ft horizontally but is not perfectly flat. They were inside of a literal air pocket (similar to how the bubble on a level works) but the vertical section of pipe still had like 20 to 40 feet of water in it. Christopher Boodram was able to swim to the top but could not climb out since the entire pipe was slick (also, he would have been exhausted and suffering skull fractures... nothing short of amazing that he made it this far)

6. The other guy saw him and just had to pull him out.

7. Some time afterwards the other diver went down to attempt a rescue but did not have enough air line to make it to the air pocket so he came back out. They got more line but weren't allowed to re-enter.

Also, they used air to pump out the oil by displacing it so in addition to the air behind the plug there may have been air elsewhere in the line. Someone with experience here might be able to comment on the significance of that but I'm guessing the movement of the air in line could cause potential issues (LMCS also recommended the time that the line was plugged to be minimsed, I am guessing to avoid complications from this).

With all that said, this honestly felt like Paria wanted those fellas dead. They have no expertise to evaluate what LMCS doing but are all of a sudden expert enough to say the rescue plan can't work? Does the Paria emergency response not have means for expediting work permits or issuing exceptions when it is a life and death situation? I remember when they had the first emergency board meeting and the only outcome made public was to control media response (i.e. no talking to the media) and now we learn no rescue attempts were made.

Christopher Boodram first had account starts around 20:00. Everybody need to watch this.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby Slartibartfast » December 7th, 2022, 1:09 am

Sidenote.... Wie insists that Paria did not instruct the Coast Guard to stop people from entering the pipeline but he also said

"Paria request the Coast Guard to assist (8 second pause) to assist people from not entering the pipeline... but not prevent them"

WTF does that even mean?! It honestly seems like Paria's strategy from the start was to play stupid and hope the issue "corrects" itself, i.e. let the guys die so they could cause confusion and say nobody could know for sure what happen and then sweep it under the rug.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby ruffneck_12 » December 7th, 2022, 8:19 am

Slartibartfast wrote:Sidenote.... Wie insists that Paria did not instruct the Coast Guard to stop people from entering the pipeline but he also said

"Paria request the Coast Guard to assist (8 second pause) to assist people from not entering the pipeline... but not prevent them"

WTF does that even mean?! It honestly seems like Paria's strategy from the start was to play stupid and hope the issue "corrects" itself, i.e. let the guys die so they could cause confusion and say nobody could know for sure what happen and then sweep it under the rug.


yeah, word salad intentionally designed to be ambiguous

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby De Dragon » December 7th, 2022, 8:30 am

Slartibartfast wrote:Sidenote.... Wie insists that Paria did not instruct the Coast Guard to stop people from entering the pipeline but he also said

"Paria request the Coast Guard to assist (8 second pause) to assist people from not entering the pipeline... but not prevent them"

WTF does that even mean?! It honestly seems like Paria's strategy from the start was to play stupid and hope the issue "corrects" itself, i.e. let the guys die so they could cause confusion and say nobody could know for sure what happen and then sweep it under the rug.

I'm sure if pressed, the response from Paria would be that scene securing and control was the aim. While these things are indeed necessary to prevent any incident scene from devolving into a free for all, the language is either deliberately ambiguous, or false if that quote is verbatim.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby 16 cycles » December 7th, 2022, 10:14 am

gatekeeper for Permit to Work has to monitor the work or allows the work to continue and up to contractor to monitor?

I'm thinking an HSSE rep ought to monitor after the PTW is issued?

Just checking to see what should happen and what actually supposed to happen?

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby sMASH » December 7th, 2022, 11:58 am

Depending on the job or the criticality, u could let the contractor work by themselves.

But this job criticality was high on the charts so should have had continuous monitoring.
Paria was monitoring remotely.

Also, this job became so routine for them, al parties may have been de sensitized to how easy sumting could fail and the severity.







Man kill he son by working with assumptions, taking short cuts.
Paria neglected to rescue, but he put his son in jeopardy in the first place.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby Slartibartfast » December 7th, 2022, 12:36 pm

De Dragon wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:Sidenote.... Wie insists that Paria did not instruct the Coast Guard to stop people from entering the pipeline but he also said

"Paria request the Coast Guard to assist (8 second pause) to assist people from not entering the pipeline... but not prevent them"

WTF does that even mean?! It honestly seems like Paria's strategy from the start was to play stupid and hope the issue "corrects" itself, i.e. let the guys die so they could cause confusion and say nobody could know for sure what happen and then sweep it under the rug.

I'm sure if pressed, the response from Paria would be that scene securing and control was the aim. While these things are indeed necessary to prevent any incident scene from devolving into a free for all, the language is either deliberately ambiguous, or false if that quote is verbatim.
It is verbatim, I linked to the part of the video where it was said, just open the link in a new tab.

sMASH wrote:Also, this job became so routine for them, al parties may have been de sensitized to how easy sumting could fail and the severity.
I agree, the culprit seems to he complacency on everybody's part. Even the best engineers and managers become complacent from time to time but the aftermath is all on Paria IMO. They were all responsible for the incident and the injuries sustained but Paria directly and I would even say purposefully caused the deaths of at least 3 of the 4 divers that died.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby Val » December 7th, 2022, 6:17 pm

I’d say so far it is on the record now that LMCS nor Paria did not have the expertise to undertake this job as clearly the assessment of risk wasn’t fully detailed.

There also seemed to be rushing to push this job to complete ahead of March. No competent company will take shortcuts to rush a job if it introduces unmitigated risk.

A sub sea expert should’ve been part of the planning.

All this postulating now about delta P etc should’ve been done at the risk assessment phase.

Other shortcuts and breaches are being exposed with the Control of Work Procedure, Incident Command and ERP systems.

Paria is also still running as normal with no suspensions. That has to be a breach of their accident investigation system.

But this is par for the course in oil and gas, Paria’s customers won’t care much. 4 locals dead, pretty good stats considering global stats.

Fines, maybe some negligence charges laid, settlements to the families, men get reshuffled or fired, LMCS rebrands or dissolves and talk done.

World Cup eh done yet.

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Re: Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Commision of Enquiry.

Postby De Dragon » December 7th, 2022, 10:16 pm

sMASH wrote:Depending on the job or the criticality, u could let the contractor work by themselves.

But this job criticality was high on the charts so should have had continuous monitoring.
Paria was monitoring remotely.

Also, this job became so routine for them, al parties may have been de sensitized to how easy sumting could fail and the severity.







Man kill he son by working with assumptions, taking short cuts.
Paria neglected to rescue, but he put his son in jeopardy in the first place.

Paria was supposed to have boots on the ground to monitor this activity, as it would have scored as "critical" on the risk matrix part of any properly done Risk Assessment. Contracted jobs are falsely assumed to be the sole purview of the contractor, but the employer has that duty of care, and obligation to provide safe systems of work for all persons conducting work on their behalf.

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