COVID vaccine passes. and SAFE ZONES Yay or Nay?

[teems1]

I don't mind having some sort of vaccination passport if it means that the country can be opened up safely.

To some degree it already exists for some situations, eg a couple years ago when I travelled from the Gambia across to Senegal you could not get passed the border if you didn't have your yellow fever vaccination document with you.

Threads like these show the little world view many Trinis have.

Visiting NYC/Miami frequently and they think they're some world traveler.

Go ask your parents if they still have their yellow BOAC (British Overseas Airways Corporation) vaccination card. This vaccine passport was absolutely necessary for travel back in the day.

[alfa]

Private businesses are entitled to request proof of vaccinations and the consumers are entitled to not patronize said businesses if they don't want to. However when government starts insisting on it then that's a play right out of the communist handbook. It's an infringement on personal rights and liberties and I believe lawsuits will follow

[Dohplaydat]

I don't mind having some sort of vaccination passport if it means that the country can be opened up safely.

To some degree it already exists for some situations, eg a couple years ago when I travelled from the Gambia across to Senegal you could not get passed the border if you didn't have your yellow fever vaccination document with you.

Threads like these show the little world view many Trinis have.

Visiting NYC/Miami frequently and they think they're some world traveler.

Go ask your parents if they still have their yellow BOAC (British Overseas Airways Corporation) vaccination card. This vaccine passport was absolutely necessary for travel back in the day.

But mah rights? Idiots...

[adnj]

Totally unenforceable, and will eventually be scrapped after the damage is done.
What's to stop a private business owner from disregarding whether or not a patron to his establishment was vaccinated and allowing anyone willing to spend their money in his business entry, vaccinated or not? You wanna put police and moh reps in every single business all day long to ensure proper compliance?

Sounds rather Nazi-Germany-ish
"Papers please"

You mean like your current immunization card, drivers permit, passport, work Pass, etc?

Reviews are underway in the US, Canada, UK, and EU regarding the employer's responsibility to provide a covid-safe environment to the employees that have accepted the vaccine from those employees that have not.

"Having mapped out roles which can be carried out without requiring the employee to be vaccinated, if you are left with roles where you cannot comply with your health and safety requirements without those people having been vaccinated – for example where they are required to work in very small spaces which cannot be made COVID-secure or where the employee cannot perform their role without having been vaccinated (see our example above of the employee required to travel abroad), then you may ultimately be justified in taking disciplinary action (including dismissal) if their role cannot be altered to accommodate and there are no redeployment opportunities. Each case will need to be dealt with on an individual basis (particularly where discrimination issues might arise) and you may wish to seek legal advice in these circumstances. This will also be a moving feast and the arguments will change over time. Employers should be mindful that whilst the vaccine is relatively new, individuals are likely to have more concerns about it and these should be addressed with sensitivity and in a careful manner."

https://www.burges-salmon.com/news-and- ... -employers

[adnj]

Private businesses are entitled to request proof of vaccinations and the consumers are entitled to not patronize said businesses if they don't want to. However when government starts insisting on it then that's a play right out of the communist handbook. It's an infringement on personal rights and liberties and I believe lawsuits will follow

Learn the difference...

communism
/ˈkɒmjʊnɪz(ə)m/

a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs.

totalitarianism
/təʊˌtalɪˈtɛːrɪənɪz(ə)m,təˌtalɪˈtɛːrɪənɪz(ə)m/

a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state.
"democratic countries were fighting against totalitarianism"

[alfa]

Private businesses are entitled to request proof of vaccinations and the consumers are entitled to not patronize said businesses if they don't want to. However when government starts insisting on it then that's a play right out of the communist handbook. It's an infringement on personal rights and liberties and I believe lawsuits will follow

Learn the difference...

communism
/ˈkɒmjʊnɪz(ə)m/

a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs.

totalitarianism
/təʊˌtalɪˈtɛːrɪənɪz(ə)m,təˌtalɪˈtɛːrɪənɪz(ə)m/

a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state.
"democratic countries were fighting against totalitarianism"

Correct but all communist societies end up becoming totalitarian until the terms eventually became synonymous

[elec2020]

Totally unenforceable, and will eventually be scrapped after the damage is done.
What's to stop a private business owner from disregarding whether or not a patron to his establishment was vaccinated and allowing anyone willing to spend their money in his business entry, vaccinated or not? You wanna put police and moh reps in every single business all day long to ensure proper compliance?

Sounds rather Nazi-Germany-ish
"Papers please"

You mean like your current immunization card, drivers permit, passport, work Pass, etc?

Reviews are underway in the US, Canada, UK, and EU regarding the employer's responsibility to provide a covid-safe environment to the employees that have accepted the vaccine from those employees that have not.

"Having mapped out roles which can be carried out without requiring the employee to be vaccinated, if you are left with roles where you cannot comply with your health and safety requirements without those people having been vaccinated – for example where they are required to work in very small spaces which cannot be made COVID-secure or where the employee cannot perform their role without having been vaccinated (see our example above of the employee required to travel abroad), then you may ultimately be justified in taking disciplinary action (including dismissal) if their role cannot be altered to accommodate and there are no redeployment opportunities. Each case will need to be dealt with on an individual basis (particularly where discrimination issues might arise) and you may wish to seek legal advice in these circumstances. This will also be a moving feast and the arguments will change over time. Employers should be mindful that whilst the vaccine is relatively new, individuals are likely to have more concerns about it and these should be addressed with sensitivity and in a careful manner."

https://www.burges-salmon.com/news-and- ... -employers

In the same article provided

"Requiring an entire workforce to be vaccinated will be difficult to achieve from both a legal and an employee relations perspective. The government is not currently introducing legislation to make the vaccination compulsory (although the DHSC is consulting about this in respect of the care sector) and therefore it will be for individuals to decide whether to or not to be vaccinated. Without any statutory obligation to make vaccination compulsory, employers who want to make the vaccination mandatory for their employees will need to look to other means, for example, by introducing a specific provision in the contract of employment. We know from press reports that some employers are planning to introduce a requirement that a person is vaccinated as a pre-condition to any offer of employment. In time, once the vaccination is available on demand, such a requirement may be enforceable. However, there would need to be flexibility in any such policy to accommodate the situation where a person was not vaccinated for reasons of health or of religious/belief; otherwise discrimination issues could arise. The situation is trickier for existing employees. Employers may want to seek to rely on the requirement to be vaccinated as a lawful and reasonable instruction. The question of what is reasonable will be fact sensitive for every workforce and workplace, and is likely to depend on the risk and implications of COVID-19 in the particular setting – the higher the risk a non-vaccinated person in the workplace presents to themselves and others, the more reasonable the requirement to have the vaccination becomes. What is ‘reasonable’ may change over time However, for the moment, the reasonableness of a requirement to be vaccinated is likely to be difficult to establish, in most circumstances, in light of it being a new and invasive medical procedure. In any event, requiring an employee to be vaccinated will present employers with a number of employment law challenges regardless of whether the employer relies on a specific contractual obligation as their chosen route or on it being a ’reasonable instruction’. These challenges include potential discrimination issues (most notably, on the grounds of disability, age, and/or religion/belief) and potential breaches by the employer of its duty of implied trust and confidence which could result in claims for constructive unfair dismissal. There is also a human rights argument linked to an employee’s right to respect for their private life."

As I said before once employers try to make this thing mandatory for existing staff and then lay them off cause they not doing it then lawsuits will happen.

[st7]

both vax and unvax can have covid so it's those who aren't vaccinated are the ones in danger though. the need for passes is irrelevant unless it's there to ensure the unvax arent infected...

but what i'm wondering is if a strain present in the body of a fully vaccinated person and they travel to another country where the strain never existed, a pass won't matter as they can start a wave on its own (unless present vaccines can handle that strain)... so my best guess is that testing will still be conducted when flying out for the foreseeable future.

so i'd say no to a pass as it does nothing

[88sins]

OSHA needs to hurry up and enforce employers having the right to demand their employees vaccinate or refuse them being able to work. majority of companies want to work in a Martian of safety and do not want any people in close working space who can possibly spread this virus.

Going by this post I surmise that you would have made a great slave. Too bad for you that those days long gone. You clearly have absolutely no clue about how many problems and how much money and headache that would cost you. Once you have his entire severance package ready to give him on the spot immediately, no problem, but know that he can still put you in court, and probably win too.


Now, a question for you
You have an employee that's been working for you for 30 years, and he openly states that he doesn't want anything to do with a y vaccine, and you tell him that in order to maintain his employment he MUST get vaccinated otherwise he cannot come to work and he will not be paid when he does not report for duty, so you technically firing him. What makes you think that an employer should have the right to dictate what you put in your body? If you like meat and eat meat regularly, but you work for a vegan, and your vegan boss tells you that you are not allowed to eat meat while in his employ, no matter where you are or whether or not you are on duty, you cool with that too?


At the end of the day, we are all free human beings and responsible for our own health and lives, and also free to either care about the health and lives of others or to not care. But one thing remains consistent, and that is that you alone are in control of what you put into your body and mind. The only time another person can dictate with absolute authority what goes into your body is if you are the property of someone, or you relinquish your right to the control of your body to someone by legal means.


My good people, please try to avoid becoming mindless sheeple.

[De Dragon]

Even non unionized companies staying far from that mandatory talk. They are using moral suasion, and leading by example.

[redmanjp]

i think in most cases u still need a pcr test. but in the US at least vaccinated ppl dont need to quarantine.

imagine you an your family want to go on a vacation but 1 person isn't vaccinated. that 1 person will have to spend 2 weeks in d hotel while everyone else cud go out?

[redmanjp]

Even non unionized companies staying far from that mandatory talk. They are using moral suasion, and leading by example.

u can't change terms & conditions just so so they can't do it to existing employees, but can do it as a condition for prospective employees. contract workers tho. they could get jam as they have to sign a contract again once the currant one over so a vaccine clause can be put in. and most govt workers in that position.

but the issue of passes i raised is not about employees but consumers/customers. in order to open back certain places safely anytime within the next 2-3 years especially with these new highly contagious variants emerging something like this would have to be implemented. Outdoor or open air dining/drinking for anyone vaccinated or not is possible but not every place has that

[hover11]

Just following up on this post.....when the boarders reopen and flights start arriving with persons who are infected with the delta strain what will be our position, the vaccine does not stop you from being infected so in essence you can become a carrier so picture a plane of vaccinated and unvaccinated carriers coming every day. The world is still battling with this strain atm

both vax and unvax can have covid so it's those who aren't vaccinated are the ones in danger though. the need for passes is irrelevant unless it's there to ensure the unvax arent infected...

but what i'm wondering is if a strain present in the body of a fully vaccinated person and they travel to another country where the strain never existed, a pass won't matter as they can start a wave on its own (unless present vaccines can handle that strain)... so my best guess is that testing will still be conducted when flying out for the foreseeable future.

so i'd say no to a pass as it does nothing

[ProtonPowder]

It looks like a lot of people confusing what foreign countries are allowed to ask for when foreign nationals are crossing into their borders, with what private companies should be allowed to do when people are coming to work.

A real non sequitur

[redmanjp]

Just following up on this post.....when the boarders reopen and flights start arriving with persons who are infected with the delta strain what will be our position, the vaccine does not stop you from being infected so in essence you can become a carrier so picture a plane of vaccinated and unvaccinated carriers coming every day. The world is still battling with this strain atm

both vax and unvax can have covid so it's those who aren't vaccinated are the ones in danger though. the need for passes is irrelevant unless it's there to ensure the unvax arent infected...

but what i'm wondering is if a strain present in the body of a fully vaccinated person and they travel to another country where the strain never existed, a pass won't matter as they can start a wave on its own (unless present vaccines can handle that strain)... so my best guess is that testing will still be conducted when flying out for the foreseeable future.

so i'd say no to a pass as it does nothing

PM said unvaxxed can return but under different conditions. i suspect a 14 day state quarantine (not 7 as in the US there is both the dominant UK strain as well as the delta strain emerging) and for vaxxed a 14 day home quarantine, perhaps with those gps bracelet the AG was talking about a few weeks ago.

[hover11]

Bear in mind even with repatriation flights and home quarantine we still had covid cases coming in from flights, I hope we have the staff to monitor all those persons 24/7

[redmanjp]

Bear in mind even with repatriation flights and home quarantine we still had covid cases coming in from flights, I hope we have the staff to monitor all those persons 24/7

the difference now is the extent of vaccination. some months ago this would have been unthinkable due to both lack of vaccination and the huge amount of infections earlier this year. but yes we still have to be cautious because of variants, especially delta. which is why the bracelets should be used.

[Dohplaydat]

Bear in mind even with repatriation flights and home quarantine we still had covid cases coming in from flights, I hope we have the staff to monitor all those persons 24/7

Well those positive go into quarantine so it's safe.

What we can do is test on arrival and release positives after 2 days if they test negative. Still just a matter of time the delta variant gets in if you're not doing 7-14 quarantines, but now most high risk people are vaccinated so it's only the vaccine hesitants will die

[hover11]

We will only have 200k ppl vaccinated hopefully by the end of July borders reopening before that , that's going to be alot of unvaccinated persons also remember we do not have quality vaccines here sinopharm which will require a booster shot to battle the delta in about 2 months

Bear in mind even with repatriation flights and home quarantine we still had covid cases coming in from flights, I hope we have the staff to monitor all those persons 24/7

Well those positive go into quarantine so it's safe.

What we can do is test on arrival and release positives after 2 days if they test negative. Still just a matter of time the delta variant gets in if you're not doing 7-14 quarantines, but now most high risk people are vaccinated so it's only the vaccine hesitants will die

[88sins]

Even non unionized companies staying far from that mandatory talk. They are using moral suasion, and leading by example.

u can't change terms & conditions just so so they can't do it to existing employees, but can do it as a condition for prospective employees. contract workers tho. they could get jam as they have to sign a contract again once the currant one over so a vaccine clause can be put in. and most govt workers in that position.

but the issue of passes i raised is not about employees but consumers/customers. in order to open back certain places safely anytime within the next 2-3 years especially with these new highly contagious variants emerging something like this would have to be implemented. Outdoor or open air dining/drinking for anyone vaccinated or not is possible but not every place has that

Ok, let's deal with the issue of your question about consumers and businesses.
Short answer, it eh go wuk.
Leaving public health safety to the public, (some of whom have questionable moral standards and would sell their own mother for a salt prune, and not about to care about their customers health, they just want the money that in the customers pockets) is taking a HUGE risk, just so some people can move around and resume old unimportant and non essential habits.

[redmanjp]

It would have to be in the health ordinance with some 250000 dollar fines. Ttps should make spot checks to see if u have your pass. Both patrons and businesses can be fined or jailed without it.

I think most businesses would be more compliant if they are allowed to open with protocols and earn some revenue than not open at all.

[De Dragon]

Even non unionized companies staying far from that mandatory talk. They are using moral suasion, and leading by example.

u can't change terms & conditions just so so they can't do it to existing employees, but can do it as a condition for prospective employees. contract workers tho. they could get jam as they have to sign a contract again once the currant one over so a vaccine clause can be put in. and most govt workers in that position.

but the issue of passes i raised is not about employees but consumers/customers. in order to open back certain places safely anytime within the next 2-3 years especially with these new highly contagious variants emerging something like this would have to be implemented. Outdoor or open air dining/drinking for anyone vaccinated or not is possible but not every place has that

Ok, let's deal with the issue of your question about consumers and businesses.
Short answer, it eh go wuk.
Leaving public health safety to the public, (some of whom have questionable moral standards and would sell their own mother for a salt prune, and not about to care about their customers health, they just want the money that in the customers pockets) is taking a HUGE risk, just so some people can move around and resume old unimportant and non essential habits.

Even before this present sheitstorm, bars and businesses were allowing nonsense to take place. If they're not asking/insisting that you wash hands, wear mask, distance, you feel with the dollars jumping up in front of them it going to be better?

[redmanjp]

Except this time u will have a specific fine for the lack of a pass and a heavy one along with being an arrestable offence as it is for bars currently. The mask law is only a $1000 fine with no arrest. Ideally that should be $2000.

As for washing hands and distancing there isn't a regulation for that. At least not for the customer.

[ProtonPowder]

alyuh really wouldnt be happy until the government could check your prostate at every street corner

[elec2020]

alyuh really wouldnt be happy until the government could check your prostate at every street corner

[redmanjp]

alyuh really wouldnt be happy until the government could check your prostate at every street corner

those of us who want to do the responsible thing don't need the govt to tell us what to do. that is for those that don't want to be responsible.

[88sins]

Except this time u will have a specific fine for the lack of a pass and a heavy one along with being an arrestable offence as it is for bars currently. The mask law is only a $1000 fine with no arrest. Ideally that should be $2000.

As for washing hands and distancing there isn't a regulation for that. At least not for the customer.

I am not one for encouraging that any individual or organization be given the authority to compel private citizens into any course of action. Such authoritarian policies are all too easily abused, usually to the detriment of the less well off in society. But I'd like to ascertain your perspective on something.

Say you are compelled to take a vaccination in order to retain your employment within an organization. And let's just say that you happen to be the unfortunate person that suffers the extreme side effects of the vaccine, and that you develop blood clots that cause you to have a stroke that nearly kills you, but it just leaves you disabled and unable to do much of anything for yourself. Now that you can't fulfill your role in the organization, thus leading to your eventual departure from the organization, either voluntarily or you get fired. Now, you out of a job so no income, and in the sad position of being disabled and unable to seek and engage in new employment. Who do you think should be held responsible to compensate you for this position that you are in?

1-Your former employer? They eh doing that without you forcing them to in court.
2-The state? You indemnified them when you signed the form to accept the vaccine.
3-Suing the manufacturer of the vaccine isn't an option either, because the state indemnified them from liability.

How your family supposed to carry on as normal when you are now in this situation? Who bears the costs for your medical care? Who will be responsible for providing for and protecting you and your family now that you can't because you did what they forced you to do against your better judgment? All in the effort to safeguard the public and return to normal?

As regards reopening the economy and returning to business as normal, the easiest solution is to maintain current protocols when out in public or visiting any establishment, whether vaccinated or not. Mandatory mask wearing, distancing, and minimal interaction between people. Because we must remember, vaccination does not guarantee 100% protection against infection, whether against the original strain or any other subsequent mutation, so a vaccinated person can still be a carrier that can spread the virus and possibly transmit it to any vaccinated or unvaccinated persons in their immediate vicinity.

We better tread very carefully, because if not this thing gonna open up a whole can of maggots and it go have plenty bacchanal and legal ramifications for practically every sector of society.

[redmanjp]

Except this time u will have a specific fine for the lack of a pass and a heavy one along with being an arrestable offence as it is for bars currently. The mask law is only a $1000 fine with no arrest. Ideally that should be $2000.

As for washing hands and distancing there isn't a regulation for that. At least not for the customer.

I am not one for encouraging that any individual or organization be given the authority to compel private citizens into any course of action. Such authoritarian policies are all too easily abused, usually to the detriment of the less well off in society. But I'd like to ascertain your perspective on something.

Say you are compelled to take a vaccination in order to retain your employment within an organization. And let's just say that you happen to be the unfortunate person that suffers the extreme side effects of the vaccine, and that you develop blood clots that cause you to have a stroke that nearly kills you, but it just leaves you disabled and unable to do much of anything for yourself. Now that you can't fulfill your role in the organization, thus leading to your eventual departure from the organization, either voluntarily or you get fired. Now, you out of a job so no income, and in the sad position of being disabled and unable to seek and engage in new employment. Who do you think should be held responsible to compensate you for this position that you are in?

1-Your former employer? They eh doing that without you forcing them to in court.
2-The state? You indemnified them when you signed the form to accept the vaccine.
3-Suing the manufacturer of the vaccine isn't an option either, because the state indemnified them from liability.

How your family supposed to carry on as normal when you are now in this situation? Who bears the costs for your medical care? Who will be responsible for providing for and protecting you and your family now that you can't because you did what they forced you to do against your better judgment? All in the effort to safeguard the public and return to normal?

As regards reopening the economy and returning to business as normal, the easiest solution is to maintain current protocols when out in public or visiting any establishment, whether vaccinated or not. Mandatory mask wearing, distancing, and minimal interaction between people. Because we must remember, vaccination does not guarantee 100% protection against infection, whether against the original strain or any other subsequent mutation, so a vaccinated person can still be a carrier that can spread the virus and possibly transmit it to any vaccinated or unvaccinated persons in their immediate vicinity.

We better tread very carefully, because if not this thing gonna open up a whole can of maggots and it go have plenty bacchanal and legal ramifications for practically every sector of society.

first of all i don't support mandatory vaccination for existing employment which is against the law. but even say i was a contracted worker and had to sign something, there would have to be some type of liability on the part of the employer for me to sign. also their should be medical exemptions for persons who for instance would be allergic to the ingredients of the vaccine or other allergies such as sea food (that was on the form i filled out to get my first AZ shot). i also think the fact that the vaccine has only EUA and not full approval would be an issue for employers.

secondly yes, the current protocols can be maintained at most businesses such as mask wearing. however there's a reason why places like bars and restaurants dining are the first to close and last to reopen. you can't wear masks while eating at that restaurant or drinking in that bar! people socialize at these places up close also. i support a pass for these particular places, not for simply going in a grocery or even picking up take out from the restaurant. in fact i would also support a ban on the pass for entry to places where masks can be worn all the time, especially essential businesses like groceries, drug stores etc.

but if u want to be able to go indoors and take off that mask, eat, drink and socialise- get the shot first. yes it doesn't guarantee 100% protection but when everyone in the room is vaccinated with a vaccine that has a 80% efficacy, the virus would have had to both infect you then u go AND infect someone else at that bar- both of u would have to be in the 20% group which is not protected and the droplets just happen to go from u to that person.

the outdoors can probably accommodate unvaccinated persons for now so it's not like such a person will completely miss out on having a few drinks or a meal. what other compromise works for both staying safe while helping these sectors of the economy to reopen?

[Mmoney607]

Allyuh worried bout this? A few wanna be woke, Virtue signaling business will try this and then they'll realize they have no customers and no employees and revert.

[redmanjp]

Allyuh worried bout this? A few wanna be woke, Virtue signaling business will try this and then they'll realize they have no customers and no employees and revert.

not if it mandatory under the ordinance (bars/restaurants only)