Moderator: 3ne2nr Mods
wing wrote:It's also noteworthy that the electorate was mature enough to effect change just as the oil boom gets going. At least Guyana has started to use it's resources wisely and has looked to T&T for lessons on what not to do. After all their struggles, the Guyanese are poised to enjoy the good life. See what happens when there is a credible alternative to racist, classist and corrupt governance.hover11 wrote:Based on what their Prime Minister said , they trying their best not to be like Trinidad and end up in the situation that we are currently in, where we wasted the opportunity. They using us a poster child of what not to be given their new found resources. Which is probably why they want nothing to do with us , so Christopher can extend all the olive branches he wants to them , they will politely decline all.VexXx Dogg wrote:You think Guyana will get bitten by the Dutch Disease mosquito?
I meant a credible alternative to Guyana's previous government. The alternative being a new face other than the Jagans , even Jagdeo step aside for new leadership, but still in the power circle.VexXx Dogg wrote:wing wrote:It's also noteworthy that the electorate was mature enough to effect change just as the oil boom gets going. At least Guyana has started to use it's resources wisely and has looked to T&T for lessons on what not to do. After all their struggles, the Guyanese are poised to enjoy the good life. See what happens when there is a credible alternative to racist, classist and corrupt governance.hover11 wrote:Based on what their Prime Minister said , they trying their best not to be like Trinidad and end up in the situation that we are currently in, where we wasted the opportunity. They using us a poster child of what not to be given their new found resources. Which is probably why they want nothing to do with us , so Christopher can extend all the olive branches he wants to them , they will politely decline all.VexXx Dogg wrote:You think Guyana will get bitten by the Dutch Disease mosquito?
I'm not sure if you were being satirical.
We're ranked higher in transparency.org's perceived corruption index, which is considered a fairly reliable source.
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022
VexXx Dogg wrote:You think Guyana will get bitten by the Dutch Disease mosquito?
toyolink wrote:The reluctance by any country to purchase our refinery is quite understandable and communicating this can appear quite unfriendly.
We are the ones who informed the ineffiencies and financial negatives associated with the PAP refinery and to market same given this back drop is a stretch.
Maybe efforts can be made to contract long term feed stock (crude) at a competitive pricing formula from Guyana to be refined here or alternatively an agreement to offer a refining service until such time Guyana can do this itself.
At this time Guyana holds all the trump cards and given our somewhat rocky relationships over time we need to humble and sweeten the pot.
Dizzy28 wrote:VexXx Dogg wrote:You think Guyana will get bitten by the Dutch Disease mosquito?
Yes
Is this still a thing? Buying scrap iron ol'battery buying...The_Honourable wrote:It was the best decision for the country.
Prime Minister Dr. Keith Rowley is sticking by his statement on Government's decision to restructure Petrotrin.
Stay tuned for 2025The_Honourable wrote:Heritage chairman: Make an offer for refinery
If you’re interested in running a refinery, make Heritage an offer.
That’s the position of chairman of Heritage, Michael Quamina. He said that after going through the formal process they have not been able to secure an appropriate investor.
“We’re now going through a bit more of an informal process, where basically people who have an interest in the refinery can express their interest to us,” he told Guardian Media.
Quamina said it’s unlikely that Heritage would get back into the refinery business as it doesn’t fit its present business model.
“There are several expressions of interest and we’re exploring all of them,” he said.
He said if an offer is attractive enough, he would take it back to the stakeholder (Government) for future consideration.
“There’s no beauty contest,” he added.
The refinery was mothballed in October 2018 following the closure of Petrotrin. Since then, the Oilfields Workers’ Trade Union (OWTU) outfit, Patriotic, was the front-line bidder for the refinery but its financial proposals for taking over the refinery were rejected three times by the Government-appointed committee and subsequently, the Cabinet.
On September 20, 2019, Finance Minister Colm Imbert announced that a company owned by the OWTU was the preferred bidder to own and operate the refinery with a US$700 million offer.
“The OWTU is confident that its company, Patriotic, stands ready to move to the next stage of fully completing the acquisition process in a timely manner for the benefit of all citizens of Trinidad and Tobago,” the union had said in a release at that time.
Patriotic had hoped to begin operations in early 2020.
In September 2020, Prime Minister Dr Keith Rowley said the OWTU had until October to conclude negotiations at a Spotlight on the Budget and Economy.
On October 31, 2020, Government rejected Patriotic’s offer.
At the time, late energy minister Franklin Khan said Patriotic failed to address three key issues: the first priority lien on the asset (the issue of pledging of the assets); the purchase price financing and the restart financing.
Following this announcement, president general of OWTU, Ancel Roget requested that the original evaluation committee, which had analysed the bids in August and September 2019, should be reconvened to evaluate Patriotic’s final offer.
The Prime Minister acquiescenced and directed that the committee should re-examine all Patriotic’s final submissions and make a recommendation to Cabinet by November 30.
Patriotic’s final offer was for an upfront payment of US$500 million for the refinery and the fuel trading assets. The committee concluded Patriotic’s relationship with Trafigura to fund the process of restarting the refinery was “workable,” but the RBC/Patriotic configuration was not.
Khan said the Evaluation Committee was of the view that, the financial relationship between Patriotic and RBC was unworkable; the financial relationship between Patriotic and Trafigura was one which could be considered workable; and it was not advisable or feasible for Government to finance the removal of the lien on the assets of Paria and Guaracara for the purpose of facilitating a sale to Patriotic.
In addition, it was not feasible for the Government to fund the removal of the US$500 million lien on the refinery.
The liens (debt) of the assets has been the sticking point.
There has been no additional RFP’s issued for the refinery following the rejection of OWTU’s bid.
As it stands, the refinery remains mothballed.
https://www.guardian.co.tt/news/heritag ... 3ba0327419
PNM Victory 2023 & 2025death365 wrote:am ... its been 5 years now... yeah FIVE FREAKING YEARS !!!!
so we are not a failed state but its taking 5 years to find an investor for the plant. what about the systems safety/production and the other support system will/can they come back online.
T&T is na ah real country (place) ... oh well
PNM 4 d win Local23.... General25!!!
Yawn.... buying scrap iron...ole battery buyingThe_Honourable wrote:Mistake to shut down Petrotrin
TRINIDAD and Tobago “cannot withstand” the economic impact of shutting down another State-owned enterprise like the former Petrotrin oil refinery, economist Dr Marlene Attz has said.
Attz was among panellists calling for independent studies into the economic impact on some 7,000 former workers and their families when Petrotrin was closed in 2018, as the loss of income was felt in homes as well as among businesses.
Attz, a lecturer at The University of the West Indies (The UWI), was speaking yesterday during an online forum hosted by the Oilfields Workers’ Trade Union (OWTU), titled “Petrotrin Five Years Later”.
The discussion was moderated by Joint Trade Union Movement (JTUM) assistant general secretary Trevor Johnson who stated that, five years on, some former workers remained “on the breadline”.
Also speaking were energy consultant Anthony Paul and former OWTU general secretary and Movement for Social Justice (MSJ) political leader David Abdulah and co-ordinator of the Confederation of Regional Business Chambers Jai Leladharsingh.
Panellists described the closure of Petrotrin as a “mistake” among other negatives, stating that the company should have been restructured and made more viable through proper management.
Attz later said that Petrotrin, according to different studies, appeared to have been among State enterprises affected by the “vagaries” of governance, noting changes in administrations throughout the company’s history.
She said outside of “noise” as to the former refinery’s debts and operational costs, the “heart” of the issue appeared to have been one of governance.
Transparency in Petrotrin’s operations was also “missing”, she said, while “some political interventions” may have led to the company’s “haemorrhaging”.
She said some study was needed of the socio-economic impact of the closure as families would have been affected, when 7,000 workers lost their jobs.
Attz also looked at the potential impact on “fenceline communities” which depended heavily on downstream income from companies like Petrotrin, stating that whereas data once looked at economic development as a result of Petrotrin’s contribution, it must now look at “decline”.
She questioned the data being used to make significant decisions and encouraged the national community to have strong conversations about the management of State assets.
Attz said she believed that T&T “cannot withstand the socio-economic impact of the closure of another large State enterprise like Petrotrin”.
She called for urgent review of management models to introduce higher accountability.
Paul said Petrotrin was not unprofitable and could have again become a “profit centre” with proper management.
He argued that Petrotrin was shut down while having unused assets around the country and that its financial problems in later years were as a result of “poor management”.
“We had options, we chose to shut it down,” Paul said, adding that the decision showed “we admitted that we don’t know how to manage this”.
He said some governance issues were involved, as well as the energy models being used by the country and said the State had the option to restructure and maintain some employment.
Paul suggested that the Government should have left Petrotrin running and tried to sell the refinery while it was operational.
He said there should be “clear criteria” as to the selection of management boards for State enterprises and their competencies but “we don’t have that”.
Paul said Trinidad and Tobago had “security of supply” in fuel but has now placed itself in a “monopoly” and is being supplied by downstream industries.
Paul and other panellists said the shutdown of Petrotrin as a company and the closure of the refinery in Point-a-Pierre has caused significant closures in the downstream industry while former employees are suffering from loss of income.
Paul went on to call for more data as to how Petrotrin’ successors, including Paria Fuel Trading Company Ltd, have been performing, as well as details of the companies’ investments.
What about the refinery?
Government was also asked to clarify its plans for the former oil refinery, which faces decline with the passage of time and incurs further expense to either sell or restart.
Leladharsingh said the country should be told what is happening with the refinery and when it is expected to be sold.
He said there had been an impact on the country’s economy, small and medium businesses as a result of decline in energy activity, including “significant” closures in the downstream sector.
He said the business community was currently “driving with the windscreen painted black and hoping to see the way forward”.
Leladharsingh said the road infrastructure had also declined to an “unforgiveable” state and has been “affecting the movement of commerce for quite awhile”.
He said the SME sector experienced a “hard hitting” moment with the closure of Petrotrin, as it lost a massive amount of “walk-in” commerce that came from former employees.
Abdulah was among those contending that a false narrative of the refinery being unprofitable had been peddled by the Government and that strong enough reasons were not given for the shutdown.
He said Petrotrin’s profitability became an issue over the last few years of its existence but, prior to that, it had been the second largest contributor of tax revenue.
“There was never a study that recommended the closure of Petrotrin,” Abdulah said, noting that he was a member of the former Cabinet-commissioned sub-committee into Petrotrin in 2017, chaired by economic expert Selwyn Lashley.
Abdulah said a “monumental decision” had been made by the Government based on some “PowerPoint slides”.
https://trinidadexpress.com/news/local/ ... 8b97d.html
Have any cat dey?gastly369 wrote:That and
main reason... Take a drive down moruga side and go into the trace near chances grocery.... BS at its finest which 3/4 population prob don't know but accepted the podium speeches
Plenty plenty...nervewrecker wrote:Have any cat dey?gastly369 wrote:That and
main reason... Take a drive down moruga side and go into the trace near chances grocery.... BS at its finest which 3/4 population prob don't know but accepted the podium speeches
The Agro Park I assume ?gastly369 wrote:That and
main reason... Take a drive down moruga side and go into the trace near chances grocery.... BS at its finest which 3/4 population prob don't know but accepted the podium speeches
sMASH wrote:Here here.
They closed down the refinery and the country broke.
They privstizing everything, letting the financiers make the money for campaign finances , and have to ride we back to pay their OFFICIAL salaries
Habit7 wrote:sMASH wrote:Here here.
They closed down the refinery and the country broke.
They privstizing everything, letting the financiers make the money for campaign finances , and have to ride we back to pay their OFFICIAL salaries
The refinery didn’t make a profit for the 6 yrs prior to its closure, it was not forecasted to make a profit in the future, world refined products use is decreasing and 3 other refineries in the region (Aruba, Curacao and St Croix) has suffered the same fate. Closing down the refinery was to our benefit. Fight me about in the Petrotrin thread.
Even if you don’t believe Imbert, IMF agrees that the country is not broke, our economy is growing primarily off our non energy sector and when new gas projects come on stream, it will grow even more.
WRT PT based on sq ft that will be another lament. There will have ppl have indoor/outdoor space like a gallery, downstairs covered area, backyard patio that could be considered liveable area. And when they get taxed based on that they will bawl. Somebody with a small 2br shack but a shed with hammocks and oils couch and they will get charged as a 2000sq/ft house.
All they need to do is standardize the evaluation. Because whether is returning to Land and Bldg tax, tax per sq/ft or PT, the evaluation needs to just and fair. And that is the problem we face.
Thst is one crocus bag of high grade manure.zoom rader wrote:Habit7 wrote:sMASH wrote:Here here.
They closed down the refinery and the country broke.
They privstizing everything, letting the financiers make the money for campaign finances , and have to ride we back to pay their OFFICIAL salaries
The refinery didn’t make a profit for the 6 yrs prior to its closure, it was not forecasted to make a profit in the future, world refined products use is decreasing and 3 other refineries in the region (Aruba, Curacao and St Croix) has suffered the same fate. Closing down the refinery was to our benefit. Fight me about in the Petrotrin thread.
Even if you don’t believe Imbert, IMF agrees that the country is not broke, our economy is growing primarily off our non energy sector and when new gas projects come on stream, it will grow even more.
WRT PT based on sq ft that will be another lament. There will have ppl have indoor/outdoor space like a gallery, downstairs covered area, backyard patio that could be considered liveable area. And when they get taxed based on that they will bawl. Somebody with a small 2br shack but a shed with hammocks and oils couch and they will get charged as a 2000sq/ft house.
All they need to do is standardize the evaluation. Because whether is returning to Land and Bldg tax, tax per sq/ft or PT, the evaluation needs to just and fair. And that is the problem we face.
PNM kool aid nice.
Aruba, St Crox and Curacao have no oil, while Trinidad has.
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