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janfar wrote:I have a strong feeling Webber wont be taking many team orders after yesterdays ordeal.
paparazzi wrote:janfar wrote:I have a strong feeling Webber wont be taking many team orders after yesterdays ordeal.
He shouldn't. If he is in the lead and can stay in the fight then he should never move over
janfar wrote:paparazzi wrote:janfar wrote:I have a strong feeling Webber wont be taking many team orders after yesterdays ordeal.
He shouldn't. If he is in the lead and can stay in the fight then he should never move over
In this case he didnt have a choice cuz he had already turned his engine to a more economical map to save tyres while Vettel stayed on the aggressive map.
Rory Phoulorie wrote:Whoever was in the lead after the last set of pitstops, that is how the cars were supposed to finish. Tyre degradation is a major issues for the Red Bulls and they wanted to protect both cars. It made no sense to leave both cars racing to the end and then none of them may finish in the lead or in the points because they used up the tyres fighting among themselves.
Do you think the team really cares which driver finishes first? The main thing for the team is the constructor's championship as that is what pays the money and gives them pit stall preference. Orders are orders. You are part of a team, you follow the orders. It is simple as that.
The team always comes first and foremost in F1, not the drivers' whims and fancies. Everyone knows F1 is a cut throat business.
Ross Brawn showed how to control a team. He did it at Benetton, he did it at Ferrari, he did it at Brawn F1 and now he is doing it at Mercedes. Christian Horner could learn a thing or two, or three, from Ross Brawn.
Michael Harvey wrote:Is anyone out there shocked, like really shocked, that Sebastian Vettel did what he did yesterday? And then tried, and failed spectacularly, to cover it up? The inevitable lines about Germans not following orders aside, should any of us be truly surprised? I know I’m not.
We posted early yesterday, as the story was still developing and before some pretty darn fine journalism from the BBC team was aired at lunchtime. The story developed, and you made your opinions felt. It brought out the best in you all, so thanks for the excellent ongoing debate.
I’ve never really bought the ‘lovely young man, that Vettel’ thing. Number one, he is a triple world champion at the age of 25. You can’t do that without what we’ll charitably call ‘a certain focus’. Number two, there are two Sebs; ‘Smiley Seb’ when he’s winning, ‘Sulky Seb’ when he’s not.
Maybe there’s a third now; ‘Shifty Seb’, the one who couldn’t hold Mark Webber’s gaze when Webber called him on his wilful disobedience. As things have played out, maybe he should have just come back with a “Yeah? Wanna make something of it?” The apology and the even more ludicrous ‘accidental overtake’ line have hardly done him any less damage. He’s a gifted racing driver, one of the very few greats. Of course he’s ruthless. So was Michael Schumacher and frankly, though we have largely forgotten it, so was Ayrton Senna. Both would have done exactly the same thing.
There’s a lot of chat out there this morning around drivers versus teams, that only by nailing your colours to one mast or the other can you decide where you sit on this. I’m not so sure. Ask me to decide whether in the public’s eyes it’s about drivers or manufacturers and I’ll absolutely tell you: it’s about drivers. Winning the manufacturer’s title might allow Ferrari and McLaren to stick a little badge on the dashboards of their road cars but it means very little else to the watching audience. Especially, to these eyes at least, when Red Bull win it. It’s a brand of over-priced drink, not a car.
However if it’s teams we are talking about, then I have a different view. Vettel needs to have a little more regard for Christian Horner and Adrian Newey. What they’ve done is remarkable. While never short of cash, remember this team was the very ordinary Stewart and frankly hopeless Jaguar before it was Red Bull.
And cash alone does not secure success. Horner and Newey have achieved dominance from a very ordinary little shed in Milton Keynes, not a crystal palace in Woking or a whole campus in Maranello. Their design, engineering and management genius is what really drives that team.
Vettel owes his current success, his fame, and his wealth to these two. There are three or maybe four drivers out there who could have done what he did in an RB6, RB7 or RB8. Necessarily, you can’t include Mark Webber on that list. Indeed this weekend Bernie claimed that one of those on that list asked for help in getting a move into an RBR chassis (a claim that was denied today). Still, it seems pretty obvious who would want to VET-o that one.
So whether you feel ambivalent about Red Bull as manufacturer, you may not feel that way about Horner and Newey. That especially applies to those of you reading this in the UK.
Do those two have any right to tell their drivers in which order to finish a race? Of course they do. It gets more tricky when you ask yourself: is that right a good thing?
Imagine none of this had happened. No orders had been made public, or no radio intercepted, or Mark Webber had saved it all for the debrief. We would have been contemplating a fantastic race, complete with a moment of madness from Fernando Alonso, a moment of misty-eyed nostalgia from Lewis Hamilton and a mind-boggling battle between two identical examples of the some of the most evolved engineering on this planet.
Ignorance would have been bliss, and the best racer would have won. The fact that in many people’s eyes he’s less of man isn’t really our problem. Vettel made his choices, and he has to live with them now, off the track and (where I suspect he cares more) on it.
Rory Phoulorie wrote:Formula 1 is not about the drivers at all. Ferrari proved that in 1991 when they sacked then three time world champion Alain Prost for saying the 643 handled like a truck (and it actually did).
Christian Horner and Helmut Marko don't have the balls to reprimand Vettel for his disobedience. Give Mark Webber truly equal treatment in the team and Vettel's star would not shine so bright. If you put Hamilton in a Red Bull, he would decimate Vettel. Hell, even Jules Bianchi would beat Vettel when you see what he is doing in the Marussia.
Michael Harvey wrote:Vettel made his choices, and he has to live with them now
paparazzi wrote:Michael Harvey wrote:Vettel made his choices, and he has to live with them now
I can't disagree with that from an on-track perspective, Vettel may very well pay the price for his steely determination. His engine has seen more pressure than Webber's now. The next race, we'll see what happens.
RP I hear what you are saying from a strategic point of view. BUT team orders suck. It's bad for the sport and competition. People come to see a RACE to the finish.
A large part of this too is media creating villains and heroes. Today's heroes will be tomorrow's villains and vice versa, that's the way it goes.
I not buying this "webber is the angel in all this" crap. I saw my boy fighting tooth and nail for position with vettel right through. He took just as much risks as Vettel. It was a dog fight and Webber lost. Plain and simple. If Webber had held him off and won, watch and see how this whole thing would have played out differently.
I look forward to the next round. It's early days and 2013 shaping up real nice.
paparazzi wrote:I not buying this "webber is the angel in all this" crap. I saw my boy fighting tooth and nail for position with vettel right through. He took just as much risks as Vettel. It was a dog fight and Webber lost. Plain and simple. If Webber had held him off and won, watch and see how this whole thing would have played out differently.
We hereby believe our actions will bring to an end this Multi 21 saga that has negatively affected our team. When we managers on the pitwall want to stop drivers from racing in a grand prix they must obey our decisions. The pit wall is the command centre of a team. If drivers start ignoring pit wall instructions and race when they want, we will have real racing and we don’t want that in our sport.
Editor’s Note: This piece was an April Fools parody
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