This anti-gang bill that is being debated in the house

[Cjruckus]

I dont know about you, but I personally think the measures are too extreme. Two or more people assembled on a corner can constitute a gang? The police then has the right (with reasonable cause determined by the officer) to detain these members and seize their assets to reduce the spread of gangsta-ism? Then the police are given the right to invade and inspect the gang member hang outs and places of work?

I have a problem with given this much power to the police officers. Especially with the seizure of assets.

Wouldn't this foster police corruption?
Could this give the police the right to destroy a sidewalk lime if they see the need to? They could easily say the fellas liming are members of a gang.

Lets discuss this with sense and without political bias.
Because if PNM gave our police service these kind of liberties, I would have a problem as well.

http://www.ttparliament.org/legislations/b2010h13.pdf

[Halfbreed07]

why?
you belong to a gang orr

[Cjruckus]

why?
you belong to a gang orr

I may not think so... but what if i have on a creepers sticker on my car?
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=345459

Probable cause for gang related activities.
How they affording all that sound gear? Drugs ent?

This is the problem that will arise if this bill is passed.

[wagonrunner]

the gangs congregating by doubles vendors will be immune, but if yuh went for a fig-punch, bleak is the outcome.

[foss]

man like wagonrunner safe, he white from morning

[Rainman]

the gangs congregating by doubles vendors will be immune, but if yuh went for a fig-punch, bleak is the outcome.

What about congregating outside of Bhagwansingh's?
What about me and three esses hanging out in Gulf View and we accidentally run into a fence 300 times whilst holding a paint brush?

[snowman]

SO yuh tryna say I cyah lime by Earth on a Friday again?

[buzz]

Once again napkin legislation, no standards, nothing

i mean really, do members of a gang congregate any more than a group of friends going to lime ?

Do gangs hold meetings to discuss their state of affairs and targets ?

if so then i saw a gang a few weeks ago plotting @ valpark chinese they all wore uniforms with the words "Caribbean Airlines" on it

[nismoid]

obviously the police (and anybody else) would know the difference between people hanging out in front of a place like "earth and other establishments" and gang members congregating somewhere.
It is also obvious that the people who like to dress a certain way and act a certain way (be it whatever race they are) would also know where not to "hang out"
The "good" police officers would use this to help curb the gang related crimes. But in Trinidad theres always an exception to the rule, My view is, If you want to dress a certain way, and act a certain way and "lime" with certain people then take whatever you get. If you want to place yourself in the line of the stereotypical people that the law is looking at well then take what you get.

[Snags]

I'll be calling the cops on all trinituner gatherings by senor seechi as that's for sheit sure gang activity.

[Snags]

obviously the police (and anybody else) would know the difference between people hanging out in front of a place like "earth and other establishments" and gang members congregating somewhere.
It is also obvious that the people who like to dress a certain way and act a certain way (be it whatever race they are) would also know where not to "hang out"
The "good" police officers would use this to help curb the gang related crimes. But in Trinidad theres always an exception to the rule, My view is, If you want to dress a certain way, and act a certain way and "lime" with certain people then take whatever you get. If you want to place yourself in the line of the stereotypical people that the law is looking at well then take what you get.

You sure the police know the difference?Didn't they pickup a guy for being a vagrant a few weeks ago? Embarrassing

[Bizzare]

^^ Oh you say that now huh. Wait till the behavior of the "bad" Officers fall een yuh garden when you thought you were doing absolutely nothing wrong. How degrading.... The police system is no longer governed by law but by an officer's judgement. WAY TO GO !! Can't wait to see how officers gonna abuse their AUTHORITY now !!

[Rallyfignis]

I think we need to do like Grenada - if you pants hanging off yuh a$$ wit all yuh ole drawers showing, is instant arrest

[RASC]

This law is obscene. Imagine this scenerio:

Police1: " Eh you see that Youth man there, I don't like him, he always up under my daughter and now I hearing talk of they going out/dating"
Police2: "Who yuh mean the Indian one over there? Liming with his boy? They look like school chirren"
Police1: "Me eh care, looking like straight gang related activities to me...wha you say? Two or more right?

...and the rest is history. It have racist police out there. Classist police out there. Police that "don't like the look" of certain ppl. How on earth is this system going to be placed under a checking and balancing system. In the States if Police roll up on your house WITHOUT a warrant, you can refuse to be searched, until a court ordered warrant is issued. You telling me Police can then roll up on that youth's parents house, ransack it, all for the sake of intimidation? Without ZERO chance of the "suspect" having a form to defend themselves?

Does anyone have a PDF form of the bill? I can't believe this micky mouse thing is even being discussed. It's as if these politicians live in their own bubble. As if every law enforcement officer out there is pure/sane/unbiased. They're human too-flaws and all.

[foss]

I think we need to do like Grenada - if you pants hanging off yuh a$$ wit all yuh ole drawers showing, is instant arrest

then 98% of the male population would have been arrested.

[Rallyfignis]

I think we need to do like Grenada - if you pants hanging off yuh a$$ wit all yuh ole drawers showing, is instant arrest

then 98% of the male nagger population would have been arrested.

*fixed

[Cjruckus]

This law is obscene. Imagine this scenerio:

Police1: " Eh you see that Youth man there, I don't like him, he always up under my daughter and now I hearing talk of they going out/dating"
Police2: "Who yuh mean the Indian one over there? Liming with his boy? They look like school chirren"
Police1: "Me eh care, looking like straight gang related activities to me...wha you say? Two or more right?

...and the rest is history. It have racist police out there. Classist police out there. Police that "don't like the look" of certain ppl. How on earth is this system going to be placed under a checking and balancing system. In the States if Police roll up on your house WITHOUT a warrant, you can refuse to be searched, until a court ordered warrant is issued. You telling me Police can then roll up on that youth's parents house, ransack it, all for the sake of intimidation? Without ZERO chance of the "suspect" having a form to defend themselves?

Does anyone have a PDF form of the bill? I can't believe this micky mouse thing is even being discussed. It's as if these politicians live in their own bubble. As if every law enforcement officer out there is pure/sane/unbiased. They're human too-flaws and all.

i wish i had a PDF.. i heard the whole thing read on the radio.

a $300,000 fine for harboring a child gang member. So basically if your son or daughter gets arrested then you will be fined for his gang activity.

[Cjruckus]

obviously the police (and anybody else) would know the difference between people hanging out in front of a place like "earth and other establishments" and gang members congregating somewhere.
It is also obvious that the people who like to dress a certain way and act a certain way (be it whatever race they are) would also know where not to "hang out"
The "good" police officers would use this to help curb the gang related crimes. But in Trinidad theres always an exception to the rule, My view is, If you want to dress a certain way, and act a certain way and "lime" with certain people then take whatever you get. If you want to place yourself in the line of the stereotypical people that the law is looking at well then take what you get.

so you feel its only black people getting arrested?

They commin for Danraj when hes on the flatbed down in carenage.

Gang Activity dawg.

A Gang member is not defined in the bill.

[Strauss]

This law is obscene. Imagine this scenerio:

Police1: " Eh you see that Youth man there, I don't like him, he always up under my daughter and now I hearing talk of they going out/dating"
Police2: "Who yuh mean the Indian one over there? Liming with his boy? They look like school chirren"
Police1: "Me eh care, looking like straight gang related activities to me...wha you say? Two or more right?

You SURE you living in Trinidad? This what happens now.

[southagain]

Yuh have to love Trini yes! this is serious!!! Sounds like a national "curfew" if you ask me. But say what......take another liberty away nah, we have plenty growing in d back!

Wait till d bouncer....ah mean police come out. Brazil style!!!!!

No more "Under d Sycamore Tree" days!!!! bouyeeee!

[RASC]

This law is obscene. Imagine this scenerio:

Police1: " Eh you see that Youth man there, I don't like him, he always up under my daughter and now I hearing talk of they going out/dating"
Police2: "Who yuh mean the Indian one over there? Liming with his boy? They look like school chirren"
Police1: "Me eh care, looking like straight gang related activities to me...wha you say? Two or more right?

You SURE you living in Trinidad? This what happens now.

Exactly
So why make it even easier, and LEGAL to do so? Now you're granting protection to these cops? That make sense?

[teems1]

this is a quote from a few days ago made by RASC

http://www.trinituner.com/v3/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=344490

When Giuliani took up office as mayor he used extreme measures, he was criticized for it, but then crime in New York dropped considerably. WHERE IS OUR CRIME PLAN??????

THANK YOU!

We need extreme measures Gibb's and we need them now. Gunta's laughing at you right now. They have NO RESPECT for the law.

Now I'm confused.

You want extreme measures or not?

[RASC]

this is a quote from a few days ago made by RASC

http://www.trinituner.com/v3/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=344490

When Giuliani took up office as mayor he used extreme measures, he was criticized for it, but then crime in New York dropped considerably. WHERE IS OUR CRIME PLAN??????

THANK YOU!

We need extreme measures Gibb's and we need them now. Gunta's laughing at you right now. They have NO RESPECT for the law.

Now I'm confused.

You want extreme measures or not?

This is not extreme, it's just STUPID.
You can be extreme without significantly altering the balance of rights of citizens.
It was done before in much more crime infested streets of NYC, it can be done here.
All it needs is proper enforcement of existing laws.

[nismoid]

obviously the police (and anybody else) would know the difference between people hanging out in front of a place like "earth and other establishments" and gang members congregating somewhere.
It is also obvious that the people who like to dress a certain way and act a certain way (be it whatever race they are) would also know where not to "hang out"
The "good" police officers would use this to help curb the gang related crimes. But in Trinidad theres always an exception to the rule, My view is, If you want to dress a certain way, and act a certain way and "lime" with certain people then take whatever you get. If you want to place yourself in the line of the stereotypical people that the law is looking at well then take what you get.

so you feel its only black people getting arrested?

They commin for Danraj when hes on the flatbed down in carenage.

Gang Activity dawg.

A Gang member is not defined in the bill.

re-read and re-read again, and in case you missed it, I said "be it whatever race they are"

[Cjruckus]

obviously the police (and anybody else) would know the difference between people hanging out in front of a place like "earth and other establishments" and gang members congregating somewhere.
It is also obvious that the people who like to dress a certain way and act a certain way (be it whatever race they are) would also know where not to "hang out"
The "good" police officers would use this to help curb the gang related crimes. But in Trinidad theres always an exception to the rule, My view is, If you want to dress a certain way, and act a certain way and "lime" with certain people then take whatever you get. If you want to place yourself in the line of the stereotypical people that the law is looking at well then take what you get.

so you feel its only black people getting arrested?

They commin for Danraj when hes on the flatbed down in carenage.

Gang Activity dawg.

A Gang member is not defined in the bill.

re-read and re-read again, and in case you missed it, I said "be it whatever race they are"

i really dont read what you have to say.

your opinion is always retarded so i just skimmed it and assumed so.

Good to see i was close to the original intention you had in mind before you pulled up yourself.

[RASC]

Half of them perpetually confuse me honestly.
Their views are "odd" at best.

How you could think a bill like this is normal, or at the least actually going to curb crime is amazing to me. You need to clamp down on EXISTING laws, HARD. That is all. Enforce all those on books now, and revamp any ancient ones. Not adding MORE that would only seek to confuse and skew power.

Why complicate an already complicated situation, in the courts and in the training of officers?

Lock down hott spots, random raids, tougher patrols of our borders, starve suppliers of product, guns and ammo. Curb delinquent behavior, community programs. Drinking and driving...I mean the laws are there

[Cjruckus]

this is a quote from a few days ago made by RASC

http://www.trinituner.com/v3/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=344490

When Giuliani took up office as mayor he used extreme measures, he was criticized for it, but then crime in New York dropped considerably. WHERE IS OUR CRIME PLAN??????

THANK YOU!

We need extreme measures Gibb's and we need them now. Gunta's laughing at you right now. They have NO RESPECT for the law.

Now I'm confused.

You want extreme measures or not?

Extreme measures can be put in place if there is proper definition and clarity.

Case in point:

(1) A police officer may arrest without warrant a
person whom he has reasonable cause to believe to be a
gang member or whom he has reasonable cause to
believe has committed an offence under this Act.

(2) A police officer may, with a warrant issued by a
Magistrate so enabling him to do, with proper
assistance, enter any dwelling house, by force and
breaking doors if necessary, and search the same if he
has reasonable cause to believe that a gang member
may be found in that dwelling house.

(3) A police officer may enter and search any place
or premises not used as a dwelling house without a
warrant if he has reasonable cause to believe that a
gang member may be found in such place or premises.

Preamble:
“gang member” means a person who belongs to a
gang, or a person who knowingly acts in the
capacity of an agent for or an accessory to, or
is legally accountable for, or voluntarily
associates himself with any gang-related
activity, whether in a preparatory, executory
or cover-up phase of any such activity, or a
person who knowingly performs, aids, or
abets any such activity

“gang-related activity” means any criminal
activity, enterprise, pursuit or undertaking
acquiesced in, or consented or agreed to, or
directed, ordered, authorised, requested or
ratified by any gang member including a
gang leader, officer, or governing or
policy-making person or authority, or by
any agent, representative or deputy of any
such officer, person, or authority of the
gang, whether with or without the intent to:
(a) increase the gang’s size, membership,
prestige, dominance or control in any
geographical area;
(b) provide the gang with any advantage
in, or any control or dominance over
any criminal offence;
(c) exact revenge or retribution for the
gang or any gang member;
(d) obstruct justice, or intimidate or
eliminate any witness against the
gang or any gang member; or
(e) otherwise directly or indirectly
cause any benefit, aggrandisement,
gain, profit or other advantage
whatsoever to or for the gang, its
reputation, influence, or membership;

Now that is the definition of the law. You can claim that, fast cars that are built to violate the speed limit, equipped with dark tint, and chances are illegal like PCR Supras can be items for gang activity. 2 or 3 people doing this together can be interpreted by law that it is gang activity, then a police officer has the right to arrest you with his "reasonable cause".

Extreme measures may help the common good, however it affects the natural human rights of citizens and will only foster corruption and abuse by the authorities in place.

[RASC]

Chris

I am reading parts of the bill here.

You may be misleading on some parts, dead correct on with others. Gimme a sec. I'll post later my thoughts.

Of course I don't expect any of "them" to do the same. They just take whatever their God Kamala tells them down their throat. It's sad honestly. This kind of dialouge, the very one we are having right now...back and forth-discussing, disagreeing, objective reasoning, is VOID and none existent in their world.

Mainly because their ideology wrt politics has been romanticized. I would say a PP supporter is alot less pragmatic than your avg. PNM supporter. I am yet to be proven wrong.

[RASC]

Oh and to go on a tangent a bit, if you want proof that PP supporters are romantics. Look at the PP manifesto. Any rationale thinking person could tell you that the sheer amount of things they promised would be almost IMPOSSIBLE to achieve without either significantly increasing taxes or formulating new plans to generate income IMMEDIATELY.

They lauded it as "great" when it was full with UNQUANTIFIABLE words. Descriptive words that technically speaking have no meaning or no means of measuring success. They ate it up. It's the poor man's utopian that the PP rode the waves of. I don't blame them, it worked. I blame their followers. They really got suckered into believing the hype.

In one section alone you would see 15 promises...and your mind would be spinning cirlces like "WTF how is that even possible?" But alas, I'm preaching to the choir. Those who catch what I'm saying know I'm making complete sense.

[RASC]

Anyway onto the bill:

(2) For the purpose of this Act, it shall not be
necessary to show that a particular gang possesses,
acknowledges or is known by any common name,
insignia, flag, means of recognition, secret signal or
code, creed, belief, structure, leadership or command
structure, method of operation, criminal enterprise,
concentration or speciality, membership, age or other
qualification, initiation, rites, geographical or territorial
situs, boundary or location, or other unifying mark,
manner, protocol or method of expressing or indicating
its membership when the gang’s existence can be
demonstrated by a preponderance of other admissible
evidence, but any evidence reasonably tending to show
or demonstrate the existence of or membership in a
gang shall be admissible in any action or proceedings
brought under this Act.

This is Foolishness. Then how the hell would you define the group of individuals?

(2) Where the person convicted under subsection (1)
is a gang leader, he is liable to imprisonment for the
remaining years of his natural life.

This is Great.

(3) Where the person convicted under subsection (1)
is a police officer, prison officer, a member of the
Defence Force, a constable appointed under the
Supplemental Police Act or the Special Reserve Police
Act, a member of a protective service agency or a person
involved in law enforcement he is liable to imprisonment
for twenty-five years

This is Great, although I think it should be INCREASED to 50 Years.

7. A person who has in his possession or under his care
or control a bullet-proof vest, firearm or ammunition,
whether lawfully obtained or not, which he intends or
ought to know will be used for the benefit of or at the
direction of a gang, or any gang member, commits an
offence and is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine
of four hundred thousand dollars and to imprisonment
for fifteen years.

Now you see why the first one I posted above is Foolish? Because how do you determine whether or not what is a gang. He has no tats, he has no special markings, belief, code, hand signal or ways to communicate with KNOWN gangs-how would you determine whether or not he is a gang member? He has the things LEGALLY- Suppose it's hunting buddies, are they a gang? The first one I highlighted was foolish for OBVIOUS reasons. It makes alot of these other laws, and subsections confusing.

8. A person who harbours or conceals a person whom
he knows is a gang member and whom he knows is
wanted by any member of the law enforcement authorities
commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to
a fine of one hundred and fifty thousand dollars and to
imprisonment for five years.

This is Great.

(3) A police officer may enter and search any place
or premises not used as a dwelling house without a
warrant if he has reasonable cause to believe that a
gang member may be found in such place or premises

This is just FCKED UP. Private property no longer private?

The part where you were wrong cjrukus was the part where they can enter your dwelling without a warrant. You need a warrant to enter a personal dwelling, however as posted right above, entering of a property which is not a dwelling house WITHOUT a warrant, is obscene IMHO.