WTK Tank or Tankless Water Heater

[redmanjp]

tankless over tank may be the way to go if ttec rates go up soon. u still get hot water all over the house just like tank but without the standby power consumption. yeah the tank would give hot water when the power is out but u have to also have water in the line from wasa as the pump wont work.

[adnj]

For homes that use 41 gallons or less of hot water daily, demand water heaters can be 24%–34% more energy efficient than conventional storage tank water heaters. They can be 8%–14% more energy efficient for homes that use a lot of hot water -- around 86 gallons per day. In some cases you may be able to achieve even greater energy savings if you install a demand water heater at each hot water outlet. 

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/tank ... er-heaters

[eitech]

tankless over tank may be the way to go if ttec rates go up soon. u still get hot water all over the house just like tank but without the standby power consumption. yeah the tank would give hot water when the power is out but u have to also have water in the line from wasa as the pump wont work.

You have to manage your tank water heater. If you leave it on all the time, your standby consumption will be there. What i have done is hook up a timer to leave it on for one hr only. Thats enough water for two days. And if i need hot water i plan in advance to at least put it on remotely or otherwise for at least an hour. My monthly consumption according to my app is like 25 to 60kw max. Rough $30 max per billing cycle.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

tankless over tank may be the way to go if ttec rates go up soon. u still get hot water all over the house just like tank but without the standby power consumption. yeah the tank would give hot water when the power is out but u have to also have water in the line from wasa as the pump wont work.

You have to manage your tank water heater. If you leave it on all the time, your standby consumption will be there. What i have done is hook up a timer to leave it on for one hr only. Thats enough water for two days. And if i need hot water i plan in advance to at least put it on remotely or otherwise for at least an hour. My monthly consumption according to my app is like 25 to 60kw max. Rough $30 max per billing cycle.

What smart plug / timer are you using?
Also what size water heater tank? 40Gal?

[eitech]

tankless over tank may be the way to go if ttec rates go up soon. u still get hot water all over the house just like tank but without the standby power consumption. yeah the tank would give hot water when the power is out but u have to also have water in the line from wasa as the pump wont work.

You have to manage your tank water heater. If you leave it on all the time, your standby consumption will be there. What i have done is hook up a timer to leave it on for one hr only. Thats enough water for two days. And if i need hot water i plan in advance to at least put it on remotely or otherwise for at least an hour. My monthly consumption according to my app is like 25 to 60kw max. Rough $30 max per billing cycle.

What smart plug / timer are you using?
Also what size water heater tank? 40Gal?

Its a 30 gal tank. Used a 120 smart plug to control the heater 230v supply through a contactor

[pugboy]

Can you provide details on this contactor setup ?

I wouldn’t mind doing that, can use one of those 120v programmable timers like what hydroponic ppl use.

It also helps to adjust the heater temp a touch down.

[carluva]

I did a much simpler approach when working for our tank heater... The plug was wired to a rated switch. In the morning, we put it in and then take it off when all have bathed.

It's off all day until around 6PM when it's back on again for about two to three hours max and then off at night. There's enough hot water during the day even if the dishwasher is going. Mind you, our dishwasher is a HE so it uses about 8 gallons or so. For our 40 gallon heater, that's no big deal.

[Dave]

Intermatic timer here and estimated to save about $25-40 a cycle and after two years it paid off. Last timer was good for 12 years.

[eitech]

Can you provide details on this contactor setup ?

I wouldn’t mind doing that, can use one of those 120v programmable timers like what hydroponic ppl use.

It also helps to adjust the heater temp a touch down.

My existing water heater supply is 3 core ecc cable . Basically the existing 220v supply was connected to a contactor’s input contacts (2 NO). A parallel connection was also made to a step down transformer (220v/120v). Didn’t want to use a separate circuit 120v connection hence the step down transformer. This 120v supplies the smart plug which outputs to the contactor’s coil. The output of the 2 NO contacts feeds the heater elements.
The toss up was either to use the mini transformer or pull a neutral/ new 4 core cable for the heater supply. I repurposed one of those small cable boxes digi or flow usually mount externally for their connections. The transformer mounts easily on it and the box is mount near the heater.
Of course with a smart plug programming is limitless so i use a off delay setting of one hour and a message notification so i know when the heater is being operated. Some ppl like to put on the heater every time they gonna bathe without checking to see if there is hot water. Trying to break that habit but in the mean time i can jus turn it off.
I am lookin into some sort of visual temperature device as well which will make the decision to use the heater easier as well. If you can see the actual temperature before turning on.

[RedVEVO]

^^
Tankless better than Tank .

Waaaaay better !

With Tankless your hot water is practically unlimited .

With Tank the hot water is limited to the size (gallon) of your tank .

How much hot water do you need on a daily basis exactly?
Due to size constraints, I have the smallest water heater tank (Bradford White 40 gallon) and it is more than adequate

My Bradford white is 30 gallons

Water tanks are sooooooo outdated .

It's like using a landline vs mobile phone .

Trinidad Mail Service vs Personal internet e-mail .

It consumes waaaaay too much energy and cost much $$$

Listen Sufferers YOU not have a Tankless system should just boil water on a gas stove and bath with a bucket !

[adnj]

Can you provide details on this contactor setup ?

I wouldn’t mind doing that, can use one of those 120v programmable timers like what hydroponic ppl use.

It also helps to adjust the heater temp a touch down.

My existing water heater supply is 3 core ecc cable . Basically the existing 220v supply was connected to a contactor’s input contacts (2 NO). A parallel connection was also made to a step down transformer (220v/120v). Didn’t want to use a separate circuit 120v connection hence the step down transformer. This 120v supplies the smart plug which outputs to the contactor’s coil. The output of the 2 NO contacts feeds the heater elements.
The toss up was either to use the mini transformer or pull a neutral/ new 4 core cable for the heater supply. I repurposed one of those small cable boxes digi or flow usually mount externally for their connections. The transformer mounts easily on it and the box is mount near the heater.
Of course with a smart plug programming is limitless so i use a off delay setting of one hour and a message notification so i know when the heater is being operated. Some ppl like to put on the heater every time they gonna bathe without checking to see if there is hot water. Trying to break that habit but in the mean time i can jus turn it off.
I am lookin into some sort of visual temperature device as well which will make the decision to use the heater easier as well. If you can see the actual temperature before turning on.

No transformer is required.

230V single phase is two hot wires and a neutral wire. If the smart switch requires 115V, tee into one line-side hot wire and the neutral wire. If you want to use smaller gauge wires to supply the switch, use an inline fuse holder on the hot wire to the switch.

There are also smart switches made for electric water heaters that are programmable for both time and water temperature. Some can learn your usage habits and program themselves.

[pugboy]

thanks, so ground running totally aside

[adnj]

The earthing/ground wire is implied and should be run to every device.

[eitech]

Can you provide details on this contactor setup ?

I wouldn’t mind doing that, can use one of those 120v programmable timers like what hydroponic ppl use.

It also helps to adjust the heater temp a touch down.

My existing water heater supply is 3 core ecc cable . Basically the existing 220v supply was connected to a contactor’s input contacts (2 NO). A parallel connection was also made to a step down transformer (220v/120v). Didn’t want to use a separate circuit 120v connection hence the step down transformer. This 120v supplies the smart plug which outputs to the contactor’s coil. The output of the 2 NO contacts feeds the heater elements.
The toss up was either to use the mini transformer or pull a neutral/ new 4 core cable for the heater supply. I repurposed one of those small cable boxes digi or flow usually mount externally for their connections. The transformer mounts easily on it and the box is mount near the heater.
Of course with a smart plug programming is limitless so i use a off delay setting of one hour and a message notification so i know when the heater is being operated. Some ppl like to put on the heater every time they gonna bathe without checking to see if there is hot water. Trying to break that habit but in the mean time i can jus turn it off.
I am lookin into some sort of visual temperature device as well which will make the decision to use the heater easier as well. If you can see the actual temperature before turning on.

No transformer is required.

230V single phase is two hot wires and a neutral wire. If the smart switch requires 115V, tee into one line-side hot wire and the neutral wire. If you want to use smaller gauge wires to supply the switch, use an inline fuse holder on the hot wire to the switch.

There are also smart switches made for electric water heaters that are programmable for both time and water temperature. Some can learn your usage habits and program themselves.

My 230v supply is a 3 core ecc cable: 2 hot and a ground

[adnj]

230V single phase does not rely on an earth/ground. Neither does 115V. The earth/ground provides shock protection. You can add adequate shock protection by running a parallel wire up to two sizes smaller than the live wire that runs back to the panel or a same gauge or larger ground wire.

Earth/grounding is meant to protect people if a live wire energizes a surface that can be touched. Most low current shocks around flowing water are due to inadequate earthing/grounding. Plastic plumbing has increased risk when compared to metallic plumbing because the metallic plumbing acts as a conductor and the pipes are earthed/grounded.

[pugboy]

yes that is why many persons complain those shower head heaters give them shocks
I have not experienced that with the ones I used.

I could be wrong but I think the local codes have switched to 220v 4 wire plugs

[carluva]

No pug. Single phase 220V is a three wire system.

The 220V uses L1 hot, L2 hot and a ground.

The 120V uses a L1 hot, neutral and a ground.

Don't confuse the existence of 4 wires (L1, L2, neutral and ground) in the above as being a 4 wire system. It is three wire.

[carluva]

See extract from wiring code

[pugboy]

good
it was an electrician who was telling me that

[dredman1]

I did a much simpler approach when working for our tank heater... The plug was wired to a rated switch. In the morning, we put it in and then take it off when all have bathed.

It's off all day until around 6PM when it's back on again for about two to three hours max and then off at night. There's enough hot water during the day even if the dishwasher is going. Mind you, our dishwasher is a HE so it uses about 8 gallons or so. For our 40 gallon heater, that's no big deal.

We do this as well with our 40g tank heater. Flip the switch on for 1-2 hrs. max in the morning about 15mins before we go bathe, and then same at night, so it is off for the majority of the day (and night). Being insulated, the water still remains relatively hot during the day and during the night when it's off so that when it is turned it on doesn't require much heating up to get hot water.

The hot water is hooked up to the bathroom shower and vanities, the kitchen sink, and the washing machine (although we hardly use hot water for the washing machine).

Not sure how much energy that method saves over leaving it on 24/7 though, as we've never done the latter to compare...

[adnj]

No pug. Single phase 220V is a three wire system.

The 220V uses L1 hot, L2 hot and a ground.

The 120V uses a L1 hot, neutral and a ground.

Don't confuse the existence of 4 wires (L1, L2, neutral and ground) in the above as being a 4 wire system. It is three wire.

I have seen ground connections used instead of neutral connections for 230V single phase because both wires connect to the same point in your main panel. It was a common practice and it works but that can also energize the earthing/grounding wire. The reason why keeping them seperate is a great idea for shock protection is a lengthy discussion.

Manufacturers are simply moving toward grounded systems. Newer appliances are being delivered with a 4 wire 230V single phase plug for safety.

[agent007]

Really and truly, a tank water heater should be on for about 2hrs in 24hrs. Only when showering or cleaning greasy pots by the kitchen sink.

Question is, if I install a smart switch and put it on a timer, would the on and off spoil the water heater and would it end up consuming more electricity by having to heat the water to a certain temperature as opposed to managing the achieved temp?

Apologies if this was asked before.

[Dave]

A tank heater is insulated and thus would keep the water heated. Even if not on a switch the thermostat would turn it on and off to keep the water at a specific temperature.

[eitech]

As i was explaining if hot water is required i manually have to put it on. The automatic off after one hour is what was set via smart switch and will remain off until hot water is needed again. The reason i used one hour is that i am able to trend the amps and after one hour the amps hits 0 meaning temps have reached setpoint. Anything more than an hour usually causes the heater to start up again

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Numerous articles online suggest that there is little benefit to turning off your tank water heater
https://georgebrazilplumbingelectrical. ... not-in-use

[pugboy]

it is not often a common practice, it is usually the standard practice by many

I have seen ground connections used instead of neutral connections for 230V single phase because both wires connect to the same point in your main panel. It was a common practice and it works but that can also energize the earthing/grounding wire. The reason why keeping them seperate is a great idea for shock protection is a lengthy discussion.

Manufacturers are simply moving toward grounded systems. Newer appliances are being delivered with a 4 wire 230V single phase plug for safety.

[Galvatron]

Hot water flows for about 5 seconds then goes cold. There is no power issues, and the supply breaker isn't tripping. Any suggestions?

[gastly369]

Hot water flows for about 5 seconds then goes cold. There is no power issues, and the supply breaker isn't tripping. Any suggestions?

Tankless?

[The_Honourable]

Hot water flows for about 5 seconds then goes cold. There is no power issues, and the supply breaker isn't tripping. Any suggestions?

Tankless?

Flush it and see what happens, heat exchanger and inlets probably has buildup.

[cornfused]

Applications described here are anonymous to using FIFA rules in small goal.

My plumber, other plumbers have told me the energy that it takes to heat the water far exceeds the energy to maintain the water temp. As Uncle Duane posted above.

Tanked is a water heater 0 issues years of trouble free service , tankless is problematic