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Slartibartfast
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » March 19th, 2016, 2:37 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:I see reasoning is lost on you so I will attempt to be short and direct. Please provide direct factual answers to the following questions. No need to provide your reasoning behind it. Just a straight answer is fine.

Was the earth created before the sun? Yes or no
How old is the earth? Number in earth years
Was the sun the first star to he created? Yes or no
Was man the first animal to exist? Yes or no

requoted in case you missed it.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby nareshseep » March 20th, 2016, 6:33 am

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby nareshseep » March 20th, 2016, 6:50 am

10 Reasons Christianity Makes No Sense
When I discovered the online atheist community a few years ago, one of the things that astounded and humbled me the most was the scholarliness of so many activist atheists. I had never before been in the company of so many people so versed in scripture, so skilled in the arts of rhetoric and argumentation, so keen to identifying and deconstructing logical fallacies. I’m not going to lie: It’s often been intimidating to be surrounded by people whose expertise in such things is so far beyond my own, comparatively unsophisticated approach. But as time passes and I learn more and more about these subjects, I find that my basic issues with religion in general, and Christianity in particular, have not evolved to more abstract ontological questions, but have rather crystallized my inability to reconcile even the most basic and fundamental principles of Christian faith.

1. Jesus didn’t die. Christians are always going on about how Jesus died for our sins, but if he came back 3 days later then he didn’t die at all; more like being in a brief coma, which is a drag, but not exactly the ultimate sacrifice that the crucifixion is cracked up to be. And it wasn’t just his spirit that departed to heaven, but his actual physical being. If you go dig up a 3-day old grave, regardless of what you think may have happened to that person’s immortal soul, there’s still going to be a body in it. Jesus’ tomb, on the other hand, was empty, meaning that following his resurrection he was either a zombie or he was fully alive, neither of which is dead. Even more relevant is that when he was hanging there on the cross, Jesus knew that he was going to come back. He didn’t have to endure the fear of death that any other human being would have had to face or the uncertainty that presumably afflicts all but the most devout at the moment of death about whether there really was going to be an afterlife, or if this was lights out for good. Yes, he probably suffered physically, but he knew that death would be no more than a long nap and then he’d be up and at ‘em again. In short, he didn’t die.

2. Jesus didn’t have faith. Jesus was always rolling his eyes and scolding his disciples for not having enough faith. There are many verses to be found in the New Testament in which Jesus says some variation of, “Don’t trust your senses, don’t look for evidence, just accept it because I said so.” But if Jesus was the son of god, then faith wasn’t something he needed – he knew god and heaven were real because that’s where he came from, no faith required. How fair is it to command the rest of the world to believe something on faith alone, threatening eternal punishment to any who don’t believe it, when you yourself have no faith and all the evidence?

3. Jesus didn’t take away my sins. Or did he? I am no logician, but if Jesus died to take away the sins of humanity, then doesn’t that mean that once he was crucified there was no longer any such thing as sin? If his “death” was the absolution of the human race, which we are told it was, why do I still have to do what the bible says, or go to church, or even believe? Aren’t I already saved by his “sacrifice?” And if I am not, and there are still rules to follow and sins that could keep me out of heaven, then what exactly was the point?

4. Jesus wasn’t a very nice guy. American Christians talk a lot about so-called family values, but that concept doesn’t have much, if any, basis in the actual story of Christ. Jesus demanded that his disciples abandon their families and save all of their devotion for him and him alone – a rather narcissistic and not particularly family-centric expectation. Aside from seeming to be in direct contradiction to the commandment about honoring thy mother and father, abandoning spouses and children, while not against any commandments, still seems like a douchey thing to do, even 2,000 years ago.

5. Jesus’ dad was really not a nice guy. We all know that the bible is full of rape, murder, genocide, slavery, and every manner of atrocity – and not in a, “This is what our enemies do so don’t be like them” way, but in a “As long as you are one of mine, have at it” way. Then Jesus showed up and said, more or less, that the old laws still applied, and he wasn’t about to change them. Yes, he was willing to call out hypocrisy, and he did seem to care somewhat about social justice – at least with regard to poverty and leprosy – but otherwise he was still the enforcer of some rather distasteful rules. And don’t even get me started on Jesus being his own father – a concept that, in addition to making no sense, makes Jesus himself the very same god of the Old Testament that Christians like to dismiss as no longer relevant (except when it comes to hating gays).

6. Prayer is contradictory. We are told that god has a plan for everything, but then we are told to pray – for our loved ones to get better when they fall ill, for safety in the storm, for the home team to win the big game. Does that mean god will change his plan if you pray hard enough, or the right way, or get enough other people to pray for the same thing? At the very least this seems to suggest he doesn’t really have much of a plan if he’s willing to modify it based on popular opinion or for those who ingratiate themselves to him, not to mention that it’s a rather arbitrary, if not capricious, approach to human suffering. Further, people often say they pray for things like inner peace, strength, understanding, the solution to personal problems, etc. I don’t pray, but I do a lot of introspection in search of those same things, and then I do either what my conscience tells me is right or what my objectivity tells me has the best chance for the desired outcome. I suspect that people who pray end up doing more or less the same thing but attributing their conclusion to an outside agency. If that is the case, how can they explain that atheists (or members of other religions) can get to the same place with no (or a different) agent? And how strange is it, anyway, to carve out your conscience, that innermost part of yourself, the very core of what makes you you, and say it isn’t you?

7. The bible doesn’t set the moral bar very high. Let’s face it: Don’t rape people, don’t own people, don’t hate people, and don’t hurt children are kind of no-brainers when it comes to morality. Our friend Jesus and his old man not only failed to make these things clear, but in many instances they encouraged, condoned, or commanded them. Sure, Jesus said a few things about loving your neighbor and being kind to strangers, but he also said that not believing in him was the worst offense a person could commit and that anyone who didn’t believe would burn in Hell for all eternity. And seriously, the Ten Commandments as a basis for all morality? Checking out your neighbor’s wife is worse than raping his daughter? Taking the lord’s name in vain is worse than owning slaves? Nice priorities. Add to this the fact that god himself does not follow his own rules, to which Christians respond that mere mortals cannot understand or judge the morality of god. But if the bible defines morality, and god has a different set of rules for himself than for humans, and we are not allowed to know or understand his rules except that we are expected to do as he says but not as he does, then how exactly does that provide any kind of moral baseline whatsoever?

8. Christian love is not very loving. We hear a lot about Jesus’ love and god’s love, and how god so loved the world that he gave his only son, yada yada yada. We already covered the part about him not really giving up his son, and enough has been said by people smarter than I am about the questionable necessity of having a baby, leaving him be for 30 years, torturing him to death, and then bringing him back to life a few days later as a way of forgiving humanity instead of – oh, I don’t know, just saying “I forgive you.” We covered too that this supposed forgiveness isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on if I’m still considered a sinner and an apostate and bound for hell for not believing. But if we set that part of the contradiction aside, how loosely are we defining love if we are applying it to the bible? “I love you so much that I will torture and murder my own son as a symbol of something I could just give you without the bloodbath. I love you so much that I will reward you with an eternity in heaven, but you have to suffer and die in this world first. Salvation is yours, so long as you swear your devotion to me and only me. And believe what I say even if it sounds like nonsense because I told you to. And admit that deep down you are a rotten piece of garbage who doesn’t really deserve my love. And if you don’t do all of these things you will burn in a lake of fire for all eternity. But seriously, I love you.”

9. Terrible things happen to good people. A quarter of a million people died in the tsunami of 2006. Twenty first graders and six adults were slaughtered at Sandy Hook. People die of starvation, are killed by war and disease, are raped or beaten by people who have power over them, and suffer in countless other ways. If there is an omniscient, omnipotent god who is also loving, as Christians would have us believe, why do these things happen? Why do children suffer and die? Why are there droughts and floods and famines and pestilences and earthquakes and wars? Why couldn’t god just make people nice? Why create natural disasters? Why didn’t he set forth better, clearer rules to eliminate ambiguity about how we are supposed to treat each other? God either intervenes or he doesn’t; god is either omnipotent or he isn’t. If he does and he is, then suffering exists because god intends for it to be that way. If he doesn’t and he isn’t, then he isn’t in control of anything, including the minutiae of how we live our daily lives. How is either a god worth worshipping?

10. It’s all just way too convenient. Got what you prayed for? He answered your prayers. Praise Jesus! Didn’t get it? He has another plan. Praise Jesus! Don’t have the answers? You’re not meant to. Praise Jesus! Figured out the answer? He chose you. Praise Jesus! Sad about the deaths of your loved ones? They’re in a better place. Praise Jesus! Sad about how much your life sucks? You’ll be happy once you’re dead. Praise Jesus! Honestly, when the answer to every question is exactly the thing that makes you feel best / most comforted / least in need of using your own intellect, should that not send up a huge red flag that maybe you’re not being completely objective?

These are not overtly intellectual, clever, or even particularly insightful observations, nor am I the first person to make them. But as someone who has lived an entire life without religion, the exercises of engaging apologists, philosophizing, or running ontological obstacle courses seem – perhaps naively, but seem nonetheless – to be almost beside the point when the most basic premises of religious belief are so deeply flawed. These irreconcilable contradictions explain a lot about why religious indoctrination is necessary at a very young age, and sadly, they explain a lot about why the world is in the sorry state it is: Because they make people adept at rationalizing the irrational, believing the unlikely, and justifying the immoral.


http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/03/10 ... -no-sense/

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Habit7 » March 20th, 2016, 3:05 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:I see reasoning is lost on you so I will attempt to be short and direct. Please provide direct factual answers to the following questions. No need to provide your reasoning behind it. Just a straight answer is fine.

Was the earth created before the sun? Yes or no
How old is the earth? Number in earth years
Was the sun the first star to he created? Yes or no
Was man the first animal to exist? Yes or no

requoted in case you missed it.
Big Bang, uniformitarianism and evolution are not facts.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby abducted » March 20th, 2016, 6:12 pm

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Habit7 » March 20th, 2016, 6:30 pm

The Holocaust was also backed by tangible evidence.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby abducted » March 20th, 2016, 6:50 pm

you a holocaust denier?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Habit7 » March 20th, 2016, 7:38 pm

If I were a Holocaust denier, won't that invalid my previous post?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » March 20th, 2016, 11:04 pm

Habit7 wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:I see reasoning is lost on you so I will attempt to be short and direct. Please provide direct factual answers to the following questions. No need to provide your reasoning behind it. Just a straight answer is fine.

Was the earth created before the sun? Yes or no
How old is the earth? Number in earth years
Was the sun the first star to he created? Yes or no
Was man the first animal to exist? Yes or no

requoted in case you missed it.
Big Bang, uniformitarianism and evolution are not facts.


Irrelevant answer is irrelevant.

Please provide clear factual answers to the following questions (to the best of your knowledge)

Was the earth created before the sun? Yes or no
How old is the earth? Number in earth years
Was the sun the first star to be created? Yes or no
Was man the first animal to exist? Yes or no

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Habit7 » March 21st, 2016, 9:16 am

Prior to your questions, I am still waiting on you to provide me a factual error in the Bible, even one without a theoretical basis you are equating to as fact.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » March 21st, 2016, 9:20 am

Sidestep #2 ^^^^^

I need your answers to know what I am arguing against. I don't want to risk misinterpreting the bible and/or your point of view and posting an irrelevant argument.

I await your direct answers.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Habit7 » March 21st, 2016, 11:54 am

Listen the only sidestep is yours. This all started with viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&start=21180#p9108643 in which you claim to have numerous proofs of the Bible being factually wrong, I just want one.

My answers to your questions are inconsequential and irrelevant, the Bible is factual wrong based on objective truth, not my answers. I already see that you are off base because neither the Bible nor evolution teaches that man was the first animal to exist, which is you last question.

abducted thought he google searched factual errors in the Bible viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&start=21180#p9109610 and he got shot down viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&start=21180#p9109729 . So either stop wasting time and come with your argument because I am not willing to go on with the back and forth.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » March 21st, 2016, 1:10 pm

Mmmmmmmmm side step numero tres.

Please provide your direct answers to the questions below so that I can be sure not to misinterpret your views and the bible in my amswer.

Was the earth created before the sun? Yes or no
How old is the earth? Number in earth years
Was the sun the first star to be created? Yes or no
Was man the first animal to exist? Yes or no

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby abducted » March 21st, 2016, 2:32 pm

According to the bible
Was the earth created before the sun? Yes
How old is the earth? A few thousand years old
Was the sun the first star to be created? Yes, God created the sun, then the moon then the stars.
Was man the first animal to exist? No

"How much better and more satisfying it is to accept Scripture as it stands. It doesn't need to be fully understood and explained by modern scientific thought; it just needs to be believed and obeyed." John D. Morris, Ph.D.

Thats the kind of foolishness that Habit7 want everyone to follow.

http://www.icr.org/article/sunlight-before-sun/

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » March 21st, 2016, 3:06 pm

Those are precisely the kind of answers that I am looking for. However, Habit has complained that I have misinterpreted the scripture or his views in the past. Hence the reason why I'm asking him directly to tell me what the facts are.

What I dont understand is why he would go to all the trouble of looking back through a bunch of pages of this forum to dig up old posts instead of just taking, quite literally, just a couple seconds to answer my questions.

Aaaaaaaaaanyway.... I await Habit's direct answer to the questions below.

Was the earth created before the sun? Yes or no
How old is the earth? Number in earth years
Was the sun the first star to be created? Yes or no
Was man the first animal to exist? Yes or no

Please refrain from answering with a quotation. I am most interested in the answer that you put forth (with justification if you are so inclined to provide)

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby nareshseep » March 21st, 2016, 3:17 pm

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Ten Reasons Humans Created Religion

1. To make sense of their world
Humans are meaning seeking beings. They want answers to questions: why did the sky erupt in fire? Why did the sun go dark? Why did my newborn daughter die? And the list goes on. For many of these occurrences, early humans felt pure terror. Even when we know what causes an earthquake today, it still causes fear and alarm for those affected. So how do we make sense of these events? Early humans created an explanation by positing the notion of some kind of a supernatural entity that was angry at them. Many of the early deities, not surprisingly, were sky gods—they lived “up there” and rained down fire and calamities on the humans living below. To appease these deities—to make them less angry—people developed practices such as animal and human sacrifice as well as other rituals. As Robert Wright explains, humans tried “to raise the ratio of good to bad.”[1] As our knowledge of our world grew, primarily through science, we learned that events such as eclipses are predictable and that the universe is immeasurably vast. As this happened, the sky god moved from the physical sphere to a more spiritual one. Unfortunately, some religions today have mired themselves so deeply in their stories, that they have become oblivious to new discoveries in science, with some believing that the earth was created in 4004 BCE because of the calculations of the 17th century Archbishop of Armagh (Church of Ireland), James Ussher.[2] 39% of Americans recently polled believe that the earth was created less than 10,000 years ago.[3]


2. To provide for a sense of belonging
Humans are not the only species on this planet that operate within social groups. They are also not the only ones that show empathy. Barbara King writes about the youngest son of Flo, an ape, who was unable to cope with his mother’s death. He stopped eating and died 3 1/2 weeks after his mother. The roots of our dependence on others go deep.[4] Most scholars believe the word religion comes from the Latin word religare, which means to bind fast. While the word bind has both positive and negative connotations, it indicates something that holds people together. Modern religion has a myriad of activities that provide cohesion for a group: stories that trace the history of a culture, rituals such as communion, music in many forms, and ceremonies that cover virtually every aspect of life from birth to death. The negative aspects of the word to bind also come into play with the practices of some religions, such as disfellowship in the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Mormon), which banishes members from their families and friends when they leave the church.


3. To seek help in their endeavors
Imagine a Paleolithic cave. It is a refuge from a harsh environment. Evidence of fires near the entrance show where the people lived, ate, and gave birth. Female figurines, often with pregnant bellies, are mostly found in this area. In the back of the cave, one finds the wall paintings of animals, such as those at Lascaux in France. Some of these paintings show evidence of being painted over multiple times. This is the space for the hunters and the shaman. What can they do to assure success in the hunt? Does the shaman lead them in incantations? Does he perform another type of ritual? Shamans, as studied in existing cultures, are the first religious “experts.” It is likely they existed in the Paleolithic era as well. As Robert Wright explains, shamans are a crucial first step in the emergence of organized religion. They move the group from a “fluid amalgam of beliefs about a fluid amalgam of spirits and what religion came to be: a distinct body of belief and practice, kept in shape by an authoritarian institution.”[5] The shamans gave the hunters hope that they would be successful. Given the fact that even today we only notice when a good result comes from religious efforts such as prayer (and forget all those times when it does not), it is not surprising that the hunters became reliant on the shamans.


4. To unify diverse people
It is believed that hunter-gatherer groups were more or less egalitarian. As small groups, they were fairly homogenous. When our hunter-gatherer ancestors developed agriculture, they became more sedentary. Instead of wandering small bands, these tribes coalesced into larger entities. Undoubtedly, there was great diversity among these tribes who may have had little contact with others. Religion, with all that comes with it, can unify a group. As an example, as people came to the Nile, they brought their individual tribal gods with them in the form of a mascot or tribal fetish.[6] As the country unified these diverse groups, a more cohesive theology developed to worship Ra, the sun god, who also became the symbolic father of the Pharaoh.[7] Unity also makes it easier to defend one’s ground, which became a necessity once agriculture developed. It is always easier to fight “the other” when your leader is telling you that they don’t believe in your god. We see this today as ISIS attracts people from diverse nations to fight all who do not believe as they do. In some ways, nothing has changed.


5. To instill order
Settling in villages requires some type of order. The larger the community, the greater the need for a set of codes or laws to not only guide behavior, but to provide punishment for those who refuse to obey. Religion helped provide that. The very first laws were discovered in Elba (modern-day Syria) and date from 2400 BCE.[8] More well-known is Hammurabi’s (1792-50 BCE) code, carved on a stone tablet (and now in the Louvre in Paris), whose purpose is stated clearly from the beginning—“Anu and Bel called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land, to destroy the wicked and the evil-doers; so that the strong should not harm the weak; so that I should rule over the black-headed people like Shamash, and enlighten the land, to further the well-being of mankind …”[9] The Ten Commandments, which is found in two versions in the books of Exodus and Deuteronomy and formed the basis of Jewish law, came much later around 1000 BCE. In Judaism, it was the Levites who served as priests in the temple. As priests, they served to enforce the rules and norms of the state. Temples were indeed the first statehouses. All of these examples, of course, predate any notion of separation of church and state.


6. To create a compassionate practice
Neanderthal, a precursor to modern humans, lived from 400,000 to about 40,000 years ago.[10] A skeleton, referred to as Shanidar I, shows an individual that had clearly been disabled long before his death.[11] Others must have cared for him in order for him to survive. This is probably the first evidence of a compassionate practice in a social group. Later on, virtually all civilizations adopted some form of the Golden Rule including most religions. Native American Spiritually says it this way: “All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One.”[12] Jainism states: “In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self.”[13] The Yoruba, an ethnic people in Nigeria, have one of my favorite renditions: “One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts.”[14] If we are going to live together, we need to be mindful of how we treat each other. Unfortunately, our history shows that this does not always apply to those outside our tribe, our ethnic group, or our nation. In fact, religion has been used to engage in wars, subordinate women, condone slavery, and justify genocide in spite of the lofty precepts of the Golden Rule.


7. To create stories that tell the history of a culture and its people
The Egyptian Pyramid Texts are the first recorded stories that can be called the basis of a religion. They date from the third millennium BCE, contain a creation myth and introduce one of their gods, Osiris.[15] Another early text from the second millennium BCE that many believe influenced the biblical writers is the Babylonian creation myth Enuma Elish. It describes the victory of god Marduk over the goddess Tiamat. While scholars disagree on the date of its origin, it predates the Bible. The Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible is an amazing creation in and of itself. Written, edited, and compiled over a several hundred-year span, it contains not only a creation story, the description of a god, but the history of a people. It is truly remarkable that more than 2,500 years later, some Jews still follow the dictates of Leviticus including dietary restrictions. One would think that the similar elements in these stories would lead to the classification of mythology for all of them. However, when Edith Hamilton’s book on mythology was taught in my high school class, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam were not included. I find it interesting that religious people so easily dismiss the beliefs of others as myths, but refuse to examine their own stories in that same light.


8. To provide hope for a life after this one
Neanderthal graves show the earliest evidence of intentionality.[16] Shells are placed in the eye sockets, red ocher is used to paint the bones, and objects undoubtedly belonging to the deceased are placed in the grave. Becoming aware of one’s own morality was undoubtedly frightening. In the harshness of early humans’ lives, the lure of an afterlife must have been overwhelming. Many religions posit some type of afterlife. Egyptians mummified their dead and filled the tombs of the rich with grave goods because they believed that the physical body would be needed in the afterlife. Later on, religious views of the afterlife took on a more spiritual nature. Even later still, the notion of hell came into play. Both of these concepts allowed religious institutions to control their followers. But ask yourself, how did that work out for the Egyptians? We now dissect their mummies. Do you really need the promise of an afterlife and the threat of hell to live a good life on Earth? Why is it that the least religious countries such as Norway and Sweden have the most generous social programs while the Christian Republican candidates for president want to cut funding for Planned Parenthood that provides needed health services for poor women?


9. To explain evil
Human beings have always done evil things. From the earliest skeletons ever discovered, there are examples of man-made injuries. Today, one only has to listen to the first five minutes of a newscast to hear the latest murder, rape, or other criminal act. While the Old Testament talks about Satan, he is an adversary directed by god. It is only in the New Testament and later Christian writings that Satan is developed into the personification of a supernatural evil being who tempts man. The presence of an evil entity in a book that talks about an all powerful god is a bit hard to fathom. Why didn’t god just do away with Satan? If he is omniscient and all powerful, certainly that would have been a choice. Christian apologists like to use the notion of free will to explain the presence of evil. However there is no free will involved in being infected with the plague or in a newborn baby that dies shortly after it is born.


10. To feel good
Valerie Tarico writes that “Worship practices, music and religious architecture have been optimized over time to evoke right brain sensations of transcendence and euphoria.”[17] Standing in the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, I can attest to those sensations: the beauty of the Rose Window with all of its shimmering colors as the light filters through and the vibrations from the massive pipe organ pumping out an old hymn. Imagine what it felt to the hungry poor masses as they entered this place of worship in the 14th century shortly after it was completed. I will wager that virtually everyone raised in a faith can attest to Tarico’s explanation. For my part, I can still sing from memory the Christian hymns I learned as a child. When my brother was still alive, he, my sister, and I would break out into the hymn “God’s Word is Our Great Heritage” which the youth choir sang as it marched triumphantly down the center aisle of Trinity Lutheran Church in Bismarck, North Dakota.

From Neanderthal to the present day, we have tried to explain why we are here on this earth and what is our purpose. It is not surprising that religion helped us cope. But it is time to examine whether we would be better off letting go of this mythology and focusing on the grave problems we and our planet face. We can’t afford to brush off climate change with “God has a plan” or excuse tragedies with “There must be a purpose” or “They are in a better place, in heaven.” These words will just not move us forward to make the changes we need to make to improve the lives of those who suffer and to leave this planet in a better place for our children and grandchildren.



http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/03/te ... -religion/

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby crock101 » March 22nd, 2016, 2:05 am

everytime we show habit where the bible is wrong he says that we are misinterpreting the scripture.
apparently the only time it can be taken literally is when he wants to take it literally.
talking snake and talking donkey = literal
sun going around the earth = misinterpretation

well according to habit anyway, habit if i am misrepresenting your stance please say.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby megadoc1 » March 22nd, 2016, 2:28 am

you all are still to back your claims and that's all Habit is asking for,try not to make this topic about Habit ,he has successfully shot down all those silly claims you guys put forward so far !
argue the topic not the person

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » March 22nd, 2016, 9:03 am

I need to know exactly what to prove incorrect. I have made elaborate arguments before only to be told that my interpretation of the bible was wrong. Habit claims to know the correct interpretation of the bible. I am therefore asking for his answers since they would be the most informed on this subject matter.

Slartibartfast wrote:I need your answers to know what I am arguing against. I don't want to risk misinterpreting the bible and/or your point of view and posting an irrelevant argument.

I await your direct answers.


Also, just saying something is "not a fact" does not disprove anything.

But why is Habit refusing to answer these extremely simple questions in a straightforward manner?

Anyway, I await his direct answers so that I may begin my argument.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Habit7 » March 22nd, 2016, 10:01 am

Habit7 wrote:Image

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby abducted » March 22nd, 2016, 10:15 am

Habit7 you left out "completely side stepping the question".

The central point has been explicitly refuted: there is no evidence for many of the claims of the bible including people rising from the dead, talking flaming bushes, worldwide flood, earth being only a few thousand years old, stars falling from heaven, talking donkeys.

And the contradictions
"But anyone who says 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Jesus) Mat 5:22

"You fools!" (Jesus) Luke 11:40
"You blind fools!" (Jesus) Mat 23:17
"How foolish you are" (Jesus) Luke 24:25

"But God said to him, 'You fool!' " (Jesus) Luke 12:20

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby meccalli » March 22nd, 2016, 10:42 am

smh, the word 'raqa' used there is an invective particular to galilee in the peshittan dialect which means, 'I spit on you.'

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Habit7 » March 22nd, 2016, 11:04 am

meccalli wrote:smh, the word 'raqa' used there is an invective particular to galilee in the peshittan dialect which means, 'I spit on you.'

You beat me to it, I was going to tell him that Rhaka in Matthew 5:22 is an Aramaic word among the Greek words in the passage that other English translations even leave in the original language. It had a specific contemporary connotation that the hearers of the Sermon on the Mount would understand and distinguish immediately.

But that is not the stuff you would get at when you google at a surface level.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » March 22nd, 2016, 11:08 am

Side step number four for Habit 7

Habit I am trying to get some central points established so that I may refute them.

You want me to prove some cases where the bible is factually wrong.
To do this I need to be sure of what the bible factually says.
I am directly asking Habit7 (for the fifth time to provide the answer to the following questions)*

Was the earth created before the sun? Yes or no
How old is the earth? Number in earth years
Was the sun the first star to be created? Yes or no
Was man the first animal to exist? Yes or no

* I am asking Habit7 to provide these answers because this argument is between him and I. Also, on previous occasions I was told that I had the wrong interpretation of the Bible. Habit claims to have the correct interpretation of the bible. Hence the reason why I am asking him for these "factual" answers.

Habit7, please provide direct answers to the questions asked.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » March 22nd, 2016, 11:12 am

Habit7 wrote:
meccalli wrote:smh, the word 'raqa' used there is an invective particular to galilee in the peshittan dialect which means, 'I spit on you.'

You beat me to it, I was going to tell him that Rhaka in Matthew 5:22 is an Aramaic word among the Greek words in the passage that other English translations even leave in the original language. It had a specific contemporary connotation that the hearers of the Sermon on the Mount would understand and distinguish immediately.

But that is not the stuff you would get at when you google at a surface level.


This is precisely my point. You guys clearly have the "right" interpretation of the bible whereas we only have google. I am therefore asking you to provide the "correct" answers to my questions so that I may propose my argument.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Habit7 » March 22nd, 2016, 11:58 am

^^^Slarti my answers dont determine the factuality of the Bible. The error that abducted made there was language, not interpretation. If you have proof that the Bible is nonfactual, produce the fact. I am not going to answer your question because I will not be drawn into your genetic fallacy.
abducted wrote:Habit7 you left out "completely side stepping the question".

The central point has been explicitly refuted: there is no evidence for many of the claims of the bible including people rising from the dead, talking flaming bushes, worldwide flood, earth being only a few thousand years old, stars falling from heaven, talking donkeys.

The central point is if there are factual errors in the Bible.

The occurrence of resurrections, once God speaking through a burning bush and an angel speaking thru a donkey are supernatural events in history and are trusted in, in as much as any other event in history.

I given evidence for a global flood viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&p=7082330#p7082330 , the Bible doesn't give an age of the Earth and stars in the context you reference in Revelation are a celestial body much in the same way if a huge mountain was hurdling to Earth it would initially appear as a star.

Let me advise you to do as much as I do with Islam and Quranic topics. Don't just quote a snippet of the Bible or Quran and just run with the pretext in which it was given to you. Read the context before and after, read commentaries, read counter arguments and then have a full understanding of the text before you give your judgement. You guys are advertising your ignorance on these topic just by the issues you are raising. Surely the average unlearned Christian might be confounded by some of these questions but to any body who is serious about the Bible, your topics are quite pedestrian.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » March 22nd, 2016, 12:39 pm

Wow... Side step number 5. When will it end.

I never said your answers determine the factuality of the bible. I just said that I will propose my arguments in relation to what you say the bible "factually" says since you think your interpretation is the correct one.

We need to agree on what the argument is about before we begin arguing.

Also, note that a full page and five replies later and you have not provided any direct answer which could have been done in less than 10 words. For thus reason I can't propose more complex arguments because you will sidestep them until the end of time.

So I ask you once again. Please provide answers to the following questions.

Was the earth created before the sun? Yes or no
How old is the earth? Number in earth years
Was the sun the first star to be created? Yes or no
Was man the first animal to exist? Yes or no

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » March 22nd, 2016, 12:44 pm

Habit7 wrote: Surely the average unlearned Christian might be confounded by some of these questions but to any body who is serious about the Bible, your topics are quite pedestrian.


after 2 days you can't answer the most "pedestrian" of questions. Be careful what you imply about yourself.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby metalgear2095 » March 22nd, 2016, 1:15 pm



Sent from my E6603 using Tapatalk

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » March 22nd, 2016, 4:00 pm

This entire argument proves that religion gains it's power from being vague. Habit, your reasoning when it comes ti christianity is "if it cant be proven wrong it must be true". So you keep on shifting the goal post or replying with vague irrelevant answers that sound correct to the foolish ear (this is where megadoc comes in).

The funny thing is how biased you approach science. Basically if you say it is wrong then it is wrong (see your "argument" regarding uniformitarianism, which you never disproved by the way). I'll be fair, you said it wasn't a fact but you idea of a fact is a simple commonly known truth. That means that if it is true but not proven then you consider it false and use the fact that it is not proven as your proof. Also if it is an idea so complex that it must be explained by a scientific theory you say it is just a theory amd not a fact. never offered any real disproof. Not to mention it was taken out of context of any real argument (again lending to the vagueness of your answer). This means it was never proven wrong and yet is considered wrong which illustrates your bias.

It seems that you are no different from the generations of charlatans around you that hide your ignorance behind the smoke of misdirected arguments and vague answers. It's laughable in addition to being false from the first page, your book and your entire faith seemingly lack the knowledge to answer the most basic of questions.

Seriously dude... These question are elementary level and if it was in an exam you and jesus would get zero with the answers that you gave.

I'm just glad that we can finally see with complete clarity what a fraud you are. You have stooped to flat out "refusing" to answer my questions because either you dont know the answer or you are aware of how absurdly wrong your answers amd the bible are but dont want to admit it.

There is nothing wrong with being wrong you know. It's ok if you admit it. Look how you guys supported my when I wrongly stated what a scientific theory was. I learned and I grew. Unlike Christianity it is a beautiful thing.

Btw, before screaming ad hominem, these are my observations. Not an argument. Feel free to prove me wrong by providing direct amd simple answers to the following questions.

1. Was the earth created before the sun? Yes or no
2. How old is the earth? Number in earth years
3. Was the sun the first star to be created? Yes or no
4. Was man the first animal to exist? Yes or no

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