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Ben_spanna
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Ben_spanna » January 26th, 2023, 1:48 pm

things getting all hot and sweaty , the arch bishop had to have a discussion on some group thats been trying to push this Trans-gender, identification BS in Trinidad, theis group is apparently attempting to get legislation put in place for consideration for our kids to turn in to these oversensitive confused children like what they have abroad.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby matr1x » January 26th, 2023, 3:53 pm

ruffneck_12 wrote:
matr1x wrote:Read astrophysics for people in a hurry. That's the right there.


What kind of barbaric religion bans people from eating pork, demands silly fasting periods, women must look like a covered ghost? Most god based faith that requires attendance is even more baffling


-Pork is disgostan (a proper christmas ham excluded).
-fasting is beneficial and a good test of your resiliance and willpower.
-women rack disiprin and need to be kept in line or else they will turn into the typical Miami club girl.
-how else u expect people to learn the subject if they don't attend the classes?

Meen care what u believe in, but u hadda admit that religion generally keeps people in line..... There isnt a widespread drag queen story hour epidemic in Mecca btw, wonder why.



Except in the middle east, it's mostly hypocrisy. In wealthy oil states, as cam girls who fly over from the west what they do.

It's not just Muslims. Christians and hindus who fast and still have stink behavior.

The middle east still practices slavery, so what moral footing they have.

Ruffneck, are you having a stroke? Your words are garbled

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matix
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby matix » January 26th, 2023, 3:57 pm

maj. tom wrote:There are 798 pages explaining Russell's Teapot about 600 times. I'm not going over this like so many times before simply because someone wants to argue "well we don't know" and ignore everything written a few weeks/months later and then repeat it all again.

A person's religious belief and faith are the foundations of their psyche. It's very difficult to get someone else to topple it and these challenges are always themselves trying to reinforce and secure those foundations of cognitive dissonance.

Just to be clear, in this thread whoever is reading it, nobody has a problem with your faith and the definition of that very word ends all arguments. Nor am I myself one who is not entangled in cognitive dissonance.


Well said.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby timelapse » January 26th, 2023, 7:36 pm

matr1x wrote:
ruffneck_12 wrote:
matr1x wrote:Read astrophysics for people in a hurry. That's the right there.


What kind of barbaric religion bans people from eating pork, demands silly fasting periods, women must look like a covered ghost? Most god based faith that requires attendance is even more baffling


-Pork is disgostan (a proper christmas ham excluded).
-fasting is beneficial and a good test of your resiliance and willpower.
-women rack disiprin and need to be kept in line or else they will turn into the typical Miami club girl.
-how else u expect people to learn the subject if they don't attend the classes?

Meen care what u believe in, but u hadda admit that religion generally keeps people in line..... There isnt a widespread drag queen story hour epidemic in Mecca btw, wonder why.



Except in the middle east, it's mostly hypocrisy. In wealthy oil states, as cam girls who fly over from the west what they do.

It's not just Muslims. Christians and hindus who fast and still have stink behavior.

The middle east still practices slavery, so what moral footing they have.

Ruffneck, are you having a stroke? Your words are garbled
You don't practice any of those things and are still awful, what's your point?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby matr1x » January 26th, 2023, 10:48 pm

timelapse wrote:
matr1x wrote:
ruffneck_12 wrote:
matr1x wrote:Read astrophysics for people in a hurry. That's the right there.


What kind of barbaric religion bans people from eating pork, demands silly fasting periods, women must look like a covered ghost? Most god based faith that requires attendance is even more baffling


-Pork is disgostan (a proper christmas ham excluded).
-fasting is beneficial and a good test of your resiliance and willpower.
-women rack disiprin and need to be kept in line or else they will turn into the typical Miami club girl.
-how else u expect people to learn the subject if they don't attend the classes?

Meen care what u believe in, but u hadda admit that religion generally keeps people in line..... There isnt a widespread drag queen story hour epidemic in Mecca btw, wonder why.



Except in the middle east, it's mostly hypocrisy. In wealthy oil states, as cam girls who fly over from the west what they do.

It's not just Muslims. Christians and hindus who fast and still have stink behavior.

The middle east still practices slavery, so what moral footing they have.

Ruffneck, are you having a stroke? Your words are garbled
You don't practice any of those things and are still awful, what's your point?

I am not pretending to butt my head to the east and think I doing something great or meaningful

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby daring dragoon » January 27th, 2023, 4:25 am

stop studying god and them nonsense. life will go on if you believe in god or not. if your god is so good why do bad things happen to you?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby one eye » January 27th, 2023, 9:20 pm

The first and great commandment says

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul and with all thy mind."

Very few Christians love the Lord with all thy heart, soul and mind.

God does not invoke bad things on you.

Proverbs 26:27 " Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him."

Ruff is right, God's law is there to keep you in line or else sin will destroy you.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » January 29th, 2023, 12:35 pm

Lord have Mercy.

This is really, really stink.

What we know about the Catholic Diocese of Knoxville investigations and lawsuits

Tyler Whetstone, Knoxville News Sentinel
Thu, January 26, 2023 at 5:31 PM AST

In the last year, the Catholic Diocese of Knoxville has been hit with two lawsuits alleging improper investigations into sexual assault complaints. These lawsuits cracked open the inner workings of the diocese.

In the course of reporting on the lawsuits, Knox News has published a number of articles detailing different aspects of how the diocese has, and has not, held itself accountable.

Here is a look at the findings of Knox News’ investigation.

Original John Doe lawsuit story
John Doe is a placeholder name in the lawsuit to protect the identity of a former church employee who alleged a diocesan seminarian raped him. It also details how the church, led by Bishop Richard Stika, interfered with the investigation and worked to discredit him.

Original Jane Doe lawsuit story
Jane Doe is a placeholder name in a lawsuit to protect the identity of the woman, a Honduran asylum seeker living in Gatlinburg who alleges the Rev. Antony Devassey Punnackal, of St. Mary's Catholic Church, groped her while he counseled her after the death of the father of her infant.

The woman alleges the diocese worked to discredit and intimidate her. Punnackal was later indicted by a Sevier County grand jury on two counts of sexual battery.

Knoxville diocese argued John Doe should be named
In an unusual move, the diocese won a legal effort to force John Doe to use his legal name instead of a pseudonym if he wants to continue his lawsuit against the church.

The diocese's push to name the victim alarmed clergy sex abuse advocates across the country. Several told Knox News the maneuver is meant to intimidate the man and scare off those who consider reporting a sexual assault in the future.

He will be refiling soon, according to his attorney.

Sources: High-ranking Catholic authorities scrutinize Knoxville bishop
As the two lawsuits swirled around the diocese, officials received an apostolic visit late last year. These visits are typically ordered by church authorities to dig into the spiritual well-being of a diocese.

Apostolic visitations often are a signal that church leaders are concerned about a matter and gives them a chance to speak directly with people involved.

Sources: Bishop Stika interfered with the church’s investigation
Two people who played key roles in a review by the diocese into whether a seminarian raped a diocesan employee in 2019 told Knox News that Stika interfered by firing the investigator, independently confirming allegations that are detailed in a lawsuit by the man who says he was sexually assaulted.

The man who replaced the investigator reportedly only interviewed the former employee and not the alleged victim.

Review Board becomes more secretive
Three months after the diocese and Stika were named in the explosive sexual abuse lawsuit, leaders made the church’s sexual abuse review board meetings much more secretive, including requiring members to sign nondisclosure agreements and disallowing note taking.

Knoxville diocese used top priest to take sex abuse complaints, not therapist
For roughly 10 months after the death of the diocese’s longtime victim assistance coordinator, the diocese leaders replaced the person with a top church official, not a licensed therapist. In December, the diocese and local nonprofit, the McNabb Center, entered into a contract to provide third-party reporting services.

A spokesperson for the church said no complaints were made in the interim.

The lawyer for the diocese held conflicting roles
Going against the norms of the Catholic Church, Stika was listed as a member of the review board that investigates allegations of sexual misconduct, a move the diocese called an oversight.

What’s more, the diocese’s lawyer also is a member of the review board, meaning the same person is simultaneously defending the diocese and conducting what's supposed to be an independent investigation into the allegation.

A spokesperson for the diocese has said he is “confident that no conflicts exist under the facts of the case.”

Tyler Whetstone is an investigative reporter focused on accountability journalism. Connect with Tyler by emailing him at tyler.whetstone@knoxnews.com. Follow him on Twitter @tyler_whetstone. Make our community, our society and our republic stronger by supporting robust local journalism. Subscribe online at knoxnews.com/subscribe.

This article originally appeared on Knoxville News Sentinel: Diocese of Knoxville: What to know about investigations and lawsuits

https://www.yahoo.com/news/know-catholi ... 52842.html

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby FrankChag » February 1st, 2023, 3:07 am

bluefete wrote:
FrankChag wrote:Regarding death,

1. Every person will taste death https://quran.com/21/35

2. Rasulullah salallahu alayhi was sallam reportedly said: “When the soul is seized and leaves the body, the sight follows it.’ https://sunnah.com/bulugh:538

3, Regarding the differences between how the Angel of Death (Malikul Mawt) gently removes the soul of the Muslim vs. how the soul is violently and painfully removed from the disbeliever, and other related matters, see these series of articles: https://abdurrahman.org/category/islam/death/

WalAllahul Musta'aan.


Yuh mean only believers in Allah will die a "good" death (whatever that is)?

And everybody else is doomed to a violent death?

Really?


Verily, Allâh forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship),
but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He wills;
and whoever sets up partners with Allâh in worship,
he has indeed invented a tremendous sin.


https://quran.com/4/48

Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) thus told him: When a non-believer does good he is made to taste its reward in this world. And so far as the believer is concerned, Allah stores (the reward) of his virtues for the Hereafter and provides him sustenance in accordance with his obedience to Him.

https://sunnah.com/muslim:2808b




Disbelief (kufr) in the Creator is the gravest of all sins, and importantly, supersedes any good deeds a person may have. If a person dies upon disbelief (i.e., without saying La illaha illallah, there is nothing worthy of worship except Allaah), then the Creator whom they belied will cast them into the Fire, forever. WalAllahul Musta'aan (And Allah's Help is sought from that). And before someone ups says or has a doubt like, well what if that person did the world of good deeds, how is that fair?... the response to that is that their reward is only in this world (eg, praise of the people, etc), but they are doomed to the Fire in the hereafter, forever, because of their disbelief in the Creator, and His Messengers.

Take it or leave it, that is the gravity of the situation. Disbelief in the Creator and His Messengers is that serious. Or rather, there is nothing more important than that. And, there is no turning back once the soul has reached the throat and is leaving the body. Such was the situation with Fir'aun (the Pharaoh) when he disbelieved in Allaah and His Messenger Musa (Moses, upon whom be Peace), and then when he (Fir'aun) was dying finally said (too late) "I believe..." and Allaah Most High responded "Now (you believe) while you refused to believe before and you were one of the Mufsidûn (evil-doers, the corrupters)" https://quran.com/10/90-92

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » February 1st, 2023, 8:56 am

So a non-believer (in Allah?) can do all the good in this life but will NEVER enter heaven.

What about someone who believes in a Creator but does not call him Allah but God - will that person enter heaven?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby ruffneck_12 » February 1st, 2023, 9:07 am

How do I travel to heaven 8-)

Do I take the gold band or the silver band maxi 8-)

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby timelapse » February 1st, 2023, 11:36 am

ruffneck_12 wrote:How do I travel to heaven 8-)

Do I take the gold band or the silver band maxi 8-)
Walk through Sealots with a gold chain and a UNC jersey on about 2 AM.You will get to heaven very quickly.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby SuperiorMan » February 1st, 2023, 11:41 am

timelapse wrote:
ruffneck_12 wrote:How do I travel to heaven 8-)

Do I take the gold band or the silver band maxi 8-)
Walk through Sealots with a gold chain and a UNC jersey on about 2 AM.You will get to heaven very quickly.


LOL :D

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby FrankChag » February 1st, 2023, 12:24 pm

bluefete wrote:So a non-believer (in Allah?) can do all the good in this life but will NEVER enter heaven.

What about someone who believes in a Creator but does not call him Allah but God - will that person enter heaven?


Not only never, but the torment is eternal and worsens eternally. And they will see their palace in the Paradise that they would have gotten, had they believed. And worst, God will never entertain their pleas for pause or mercy. That is what a person chooses when they choose disbelief or they belie the Creator and Sustainer of this awesome, perfectly ordered creation.

As for the one who loves to Worship God the Most High ALONE, acknowledging that there is nothing worthy of worship except Him, without any children or parents or partners (ie, true monotheism), then if this is what is settled in a person's heart, then that person should ask Him (sincerely) for forgiveness, and guidance.


And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians),
unless it be in (a way) that is better (i.e., with good words and in good manner,
inviting them to Islâmic Monotheism with His Verses),
except with such of them as do wrong; and say (to them):
"We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you;
our Ilâh (God) and your Ilâh (God) is One (i.e. Allâh),
and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."
https://quran.com/29/46?translations=203

Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us
and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhîm (Abraham), Ismâ‘îl (Ishmael),
Ishâq (Isaac), Ya‘qûb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya‘qûb (Jacob)],
and that which has been given to Mûsâ (Moses) and ‘Îsâ (Jesus),
and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord.
We make no distinction between any of them,
and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm).
https://quran.com/2/136?translations=203



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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » February 2nd, 2023, 3:03 pm

FrankChag wrote:
bluefete wrote:So a non-believer (in Allah?) can do all the good in this life but will NEVER enter heaven.

What about someone who believes in a Creator but does not call him Allah but God - will that person enter heaven?


Not only never, but the torment is eternal and worsens eternally. And they will see their palace in the Paradise that they would have gotten, had they believed. And worst, God will never entertain their pleas for pause or mercy. That is what a person chooses when they choose disbelief or they belie the Creator and Sustainer of this awesome, perfectly ordered creation.

As for the one who loves to Worship God the Most High ALONE, acknowledging that there is nothing worthy of worship except Him, without any children or parents or partners (ie, true monotheism), then if this is what is settled in a person's heart, then that person should ask Him (sincerely) for forgiveness, and guidance.


And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians),
unless it be in (a way) that is better (i.e., with good words and in good manner,
inviting them to Islâmic Monotheism with His Verses),
except with such of them as do wrong; and say (to them):
"We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you;
our Ilâh (God) and your Ilâh (God) is One (i.e. Allâh),
and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."
https://quran.com/29/46?translations=203

Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us
and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhîm (Abraham), Ismâ‘îl (Ishmael),
Ishâq (Isaac), Ya‘qûb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya‘qûb (Jacob)],
and that which has been given to Mûsâ (Moses) and ‘Îsâ (Jesus),
and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord.
We make no distinction between any of them,
and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm).
https://quran.com/2/136?translations=203




You have just condemned to hell, billions of people who have never heard of Allah.

The Islamic religion started with the Prophet Muhammed, not so?

So, all the people who lived before Muhammed - Will they rot in hell?

What about the people in India (Hindus); Native Americans, Africa, South Pacific who have never heard of Allah?

Fire for them as well?

This sounds very much like what Christians tell people of other religions.

There are millions of people who were born, lived and died and never heard of Jesus. Some Christians say those people can never enter heaven. Is that fair to them?

On the other hand, the 2nd 1/2 of your answer is most illuminating.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby FrankChag » February 2nd, 2023, 5:40 pm

bluefete wrote:
FrankChag wrote:
bluefete wrote:So a non-believer (in Allah?) can do all the good in this life but will NEVER enter heaven.

What about someone who believes in a Creator but does not call him Allah but God - will that person enter heaven?


Not only never, but the torment is eternal and worsens eternally. And they will see their palace in the Paradise that they would have gotten, had they believed. And worst, God will never entertain their pleas for pause or mercy. That is what a person chooses when they choose disbelief or they belie the Creator and Sustainer of this awesome, perfectly ordered creation.

As for the one who loves to Worship God the Most High ALONE, acknowledging that there is nothing worthy of worship except Him, without any children or parents or partners (ie, true monotheism), then if this is what is settled in a person's heart, then that person should ask Him (sincerely) for forgiveness, and guidance.


And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians),
unless it be in (a way) that is better (i.e., with good words and in good manner,
inviting them to Islâmic Monotheism with His Verses),
except with such of them as do wrong; and say (to them):
"We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you;
our Ilâh (God) and your Ilâh (God) is One (i.e. Allâh),
and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."
https://quran.com/29/46?translations=203

Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us
and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhîm (Abraham), Ismâ‘îl (Ishmael),
Ishâq (Isaac), Ya‘qûb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya‘qûb (Jacob)],
and that which has been given to Mûsâ (Moses) and ‘Îsâ (Jesus),
and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord.
We make no distinction between any of them,
and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm).
https://quran.com/2/136?translations=203




You have just condemned to hell, billions of people who have never heard of Allah.
The Islamic religion started with the Prophet Muhammad, not so?
So, all the people who lived before Muhammad - Will they rot in hell?
What about the people in India (Hindus); Native Americans, Africa, South Pacific who have never heard of Allah?
Fire for them as well?
This sounds very much like what Christians tell people of other religions.
There are millions of people who were born, lived and died and never heard of Jesus. Some Christians say those people can never enter heaven. Is that fair to them?
On the other hand, the 2nd 1/2 of your answer is most illuminating.


This is an understandable doubt, but certainly Allaah is the Best of Judges (https://quran.com/7/87). Firstly, Islaam means submission to God's Lordship and submission by worshiping Him Alone, so the general meaning of Islaam is the call to monotheism brought by each Prophet or Messenger that Allaah sent whenever a people deviated. This matter of people deviating from monotheism did not start with at the time of Muhammad ﷺ, but at the time of Noah when the people began worshiping statues of their pious ancestors. So Allaah sent Noah to his people to call them back to the monotheism established by Adam (upon whom be peace). So starting with Adam, to Noah (Nuh), to Abraham (Ibrahim), to David (Dawud), Solomon (Sulaymaan), Moses (Musa), to Isa (Jesus) to Muhammad, upon them all be Peace, these were all Prophets of Allah. There are some whose names we know, and many we don't, but we "make no distinction between any of them" (see above, https://quran.com/2/136?translations=203), because they all brought same message: "Worship the one true God, Alone". The true followers of all these Prophets were Muslims. Islaam in the specific sense is the final religion given to the final Messenger of Allaah to be sent, Muhammad ﷺ. So other Muslims who believed in Allaah and followed their Prophets will enter the Jannah (Paradise) just as the Muslims of today.

For example:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Every Prophet was given miracles because of which people believed, but what I have been given, is Divine Inspiration which Allah has revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will outnumber the followers of the other Prophets on the Day of Resurrection." https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4981

Regard those who were between Prophets, and/or someone who as never heard of Islaam, due to their geography, time, or they were senile or deaf, etc, then they will be raised up on the Day of Judgement and tested.

"Four will have proofs (in their favor) on the Day of Standing: (1) A deaf man who could not hear anything; (2) a fool (who could not understand anything); (3) a feebly old man; and (4) a man who died in the fatrah (the period between prophets). As for the deaf man, then he will say: 'My Lord, Islaam came and I did not hear anything.' And as for the fool, then he will say, 'My Lord, Islaam came and the children were throwing dung at me.' And as for the feebly old man, then he will say, 'My Lord, Islaam came and I did not understand anything.' And as for the one who died in the fatrah (period between prophets), then he will say, 'My Lord, no messenger from you came to me.' So He (Allaah) will take oaths from them that they will obey Him (in what He is about to request from them), so it (an order) will be sent to them: 'Enter the Fire!' And verily by Him in whose Hand is my soul, if they entered it, it will be cool and soothing."

Imaam Ahmad in his Musnad (16301); authenticated by Al-Albaanee in Silsilatul-Ahaadeethis-Saheehah (1424). http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessag ... Topic=4188

Those that disobeyed will be punished. And Allaah knows best.


See also https://abdurrahman.org/2020/01/16/defi ... -of-islam/


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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby matr1x » February 2nd, 2023, 6:42 pm

FrankChag wrote:
bluefete wrote:
FrankChag wrote:
bluefete wrote:So a non-believer (in Allah?) can do all the good in this life but will NEVER enter heaven.

What about someone who believes in a Creator but does not call him Allah but God - will that person enter heaven?


Not only never, but the torment is eternal and worsens eternally. And they will see their palace in the Paradise that they would have gotten, had they believed. And worst, God will never entertain their pleas for pause or mercy. That is what a person chooses when they choose disbelief or they belie the Creator and Sustainer of this awesome, perfectly ordered creation.

As for the one who loves to Worship God the Most High ALONE, acknowledging that there is nothing worthy of worship except Him, without any children or parents or partners (ie, true monotheism), then if this is what is settled in a person's heart, then that person should ask Him (sincerely) for forgiveness, and guidance.


And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians),
unless it be in (a way) that is better (i.e., with good words and in good manner,
inviting them to Islâmic Monotheism with His Verses),
except with such of them as do wrong; and say (to them):
"We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you;
our Ilâh (God) and your Ilâh (God) is One (i.e. Allâh),
and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."
https://quran.com/29/46?translations=203

Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us
and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhîm (Abraham), Ismâ‘îl (Ishmael),
Ishâq (Isaac), Ya‘qûb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya‘qûb (Jacob)],
and that which has been given to Mûsâ (Moses) and ‘Îsâ (Jesus),
and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord.
We make no distinction between any of them,
and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm).
https://quran.com/2/136?translations=203




You have just condemned to hell, billions of people who have never heard of Allah.
The Islamic religion started with the Prophet Muhammad, not so?
So, all the people who lived before Muhammad - Will they rot in hell?
What about the people in India (Hindus); Native Americans, Africa, South Pacific who have never heard of Allah?
Fire for them as well?
This sounds very much like what Christians tell people of other religions.
There are millions of people who were born, lived and died and never heard of Jesus. Some Christians say those people can never enter heaven. Is that fair to them?
On the other hand, the 2nd 1/2 of your answer is most illuminating.


This is an understandable doubt, but certainly Allaah is the Best of Judges (https://quran.com/7/87). Firstly, Islaam means submission to God's Lordship and submission by worshiping Him Alone, so the general meaning of Islaam is the call to monotheism brought by each Prophet or Messenger that Allaah sent whenever a people deviated. This matter of people deviating from monotheism did not start with at the time of Muhammad ﷺ, but at the time of Noah when the people began worshiping statues of their pious ancestors. So Allaah sent Noah to his people to call them back to the monotheism established by Adam (upon whom be peace). So starting with Adam, to Noah (Nuh), to Abraham (Ibrahim), to David (Dawud), Solomon (Sulaymaan), Moses (Musa), to Isa (Jesus) to Muhammad, upon them all be Peace, these were all Prophets of Allah. There are some whose names we know, and many we don't, but we "make no distinction between any of them" (see above, https://quran.com/2/136?translations=203), because they all brought same message: "Worship the one true God, Alone". The true followers of all these Prophets were Muslims. Islaam in the specific sense is the final religion given to the final Messenger of Allaah to be sent, Muhammad ﷺ. So other Muslims who believed in Allaah and followed their Prophets will enter the Jannah (Paradise) just as the Muslims of today.

For example:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Every Prophet was given miracles because of which people believed, but what I have been given, is Divine Inspiration which Allah has revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will outnumber the followers of the other Prophets on the Day of Resurrection." https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4981

Regard those who were between Prophets, and/or someone who as never heard of Islaam, due to their geography, time, or they were senile or deaf, etc, then they will be raised up on the Day of Judgement and tested.

"Four will have proofs (in their favor) on the Day of Standing: (1) A deaf man who could not hear anything; (2) a fool (who could not understand anything); (3) a feebly old man; and (4) a man who died in the fatrah (the period between prophets). As for the deaf man, then he will say: 'My Lord, Islaam came and I did not hear anything.' And as for the fool, then he will say, 'My Lord, Islaam came and the children were throwing dung at me.' And as for the feebly old man, then he will say, 'My Lord, Islaam came and I did not understand anything.' And as for the one who died in the fatrah (period between prophets), then he will say, 'My Lord, no messenger from you came to me.' So He (Allaah) will take oaths from them that they will obey Him (in what He is about to request from them), so it (an order) will be sent to them: 'Enter the Fire!' And verily by Him in whose Hand is my soul, if they entered it, it will be cool and soothing."

Imaam Ahmad in his Musnad (16301); authenticated by Al-Albaanee in Silsilatul-Ahaadeethis-Saheehah (1424). http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessag ... Topic=4188

Those that disobeyed will be punished. And Allaah knows best.


See also https://abdurrahman.org/2020/01/16/defi ... -of-islam/




What kinda of rubbish you posting? That's some nazi 3rd Reich nonsense

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby FrankChag » February 3rd, 2023, 8:04 am

matr1x wrote:
FrankChag wrote:
bluefete wrote:
FrankChag wrote:
bluefete wrote:So a non-believer (in Allah?) can do all the good in this life but will NEVER enter heaven.

What about someone who believes in a Creator but does not call him Allah but God - will that person enter heaven?


Not only never, but the torment is eternal and worsens eternally. And they will see their palace in the Paradise that they would have gotten, had they believed. And worst, God will never entertain their pleas for pause or mercy. That is what a person chooses when they choose disbelief or they belie the Creator and Sustainer of this awesome, perfectly ordered creation.

As for the one who loves to Worship God the Most High ALONE, acknowledging that there is nothing worthy of worship except Him, without any children or parents or partners (ie, true monotheism), then if this is what is settled in a person's heart, then that person should ask Him (sincerely) for forgiveness, and guidance.


And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians),
unless it be in (a way) that is better (i.e., with good words and in good manner,
inviting them to Islâmic Monotheism with His Verses),
except with such of them as do wrong; and say (to them):
"We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you;
our Ilâh (God) and your Ilâh (God) is One (i.e. Allâh),
and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."
https://quran.com/29/46?translations=203

Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us
and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhîm (Abraham), Ismâ‘îl (Ishmael),
Ishâq (Isaac), Ya‘qûb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya‘qûb (Jacob)],
and that which has been given to Mûsâ (Moses) and ‘Îsâ (Jesus),
and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord.
We make no distinction between any of them,
and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm).
https://quran.com/2/136?translations=203




You have just condemned to hell, billions of people who have never heard of Allah.
The Islamic religion started with the Prophet Muhammad, not so?
So, all the people who lived before Muhammad - Will they rot in hell?
What about the people in India (Hindus); Native Americans, Africa, South Pacific who have never heard of Allah?
Fire for them as well?
This sounds very much like what Christians tell people of other religions.
There are millions of people who were born, lived and died and never heard of Jesus. Some Christians say those people can never enter heaven. Is that fair to them?
On the other hand, the 2nd 1/2 of your answer is most illuminating.


This is an understandable doubt, but certainly Allaah is the Best of Judges (https://quran.com/7/87). Firstly, Islaam means submission to God's Lordship and submission by worshiping Him Alone, so the general meaning of Islaam is the call to monotheism brought by each Prophet or Messenger that Allaah sent whenever a people deviated. This matter of people deviating from monotheism did not start with at the time of Muhammad ﷺ, but at the time of Noah when the people began worshiping statues of their pious ancestors. So Allaah sent Noah to his people to call them back to the monotheism established by Adam (upon whom be peace). So starting with Adam, to Noah (Nuh), to Abraham (Ibrahim), to David (Dawud), Solomon (Sulaymaan), Moses (Musa), to Isa (Jesus) to Muhammad, upon them all be Peace, these were all Prophets of Allah. There are some whose names we know, and many we don't, but we "make no distinction between any of them" (see above, https://quran.com/2/136?translations=203), because they all brought same message: "Worship the one true God, Alone". The true followers of all these Prophets were Muslims. Islaam in the specific sense is the final religion given to the final Messenger of Allaah to be sent, Muhammad ﷺ. So other Muslims who believed in Allaah and followed their Prophets will enter the Jannah (Paradise) just as the Muslims of today.

For example:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Every Prophet was given miracles because of which people believed, but what I have been given, is Divine Inspiration which Allah has revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will outnumber the followers of the other Prophets on the Day of Resurrection." https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4981

Regard those who were between Prophets, and/or someone who as never heard of Islaam, due to their geography, time, or they were senile or deaf, etc, then they will be raised up on the Day of Judgement and tested.

"Four will have proofs (in their favor) on the Day of Standing: (1) A deaf man who could not hear anything; (2) a fool (who could not understand anything); (3) a feebly old man; and (4) a man who died in the fatrah (the period between prophets). As for the deaf man, then he will say: 'My Lord, Islaam came and I did not hear anything.' And as for the fool, then he will say, 'My Lord, Islaam came and the children were throwing dung at me.' And as for the feebly old man, then he will say, 'My Lord, Islaam came and I did not understand anything.' And as for the one who died in the fatrah (period between prophets), then he will say, 'My Lord, no messenger from you came to me.' So He (Allaah) will take oaths from them that they will obey Him (in what He is about to request from them), so it (an order) will be sent to them: 'Enter the Fire!' And verily by Him in whose Hand is my soul, if they entered it, it will be cool and soothing."

Imaam Ahmad in his Musnad (16301); authenticated by Al-Albaanee in Silsilatul-Ahaadeethis-Saheehah (1424). http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessag ... Topic=4188

Those that disobeyed will be punished. And Allaah knows best.


See also https://abdurrahman.org/2020/01/16/defi ... -of-islam/




What kinda of rubbish you posting? That's some nazi 3rd Reich nonsense




"...And as for the fool, then he will say,
'My Lord, Islaam came and the children were throwing dung at me...'"



The merciful thing to do is to throw dung at you...
maybe you'll have an excuse with your Lord on the Day of Judgement.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby adnj » February 3rd, 2023, 8:27 am

......

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FrankChag
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby FrankChag » February 3rd, 2023, 8:32 am

@adnj, for pictorial evidence:
Turn on your old tv
Set it to Ch3...



Here's the colorized version:
Image



see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_mi ... e_Big_Bang

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby matr1x » February 3rd, 2023, 9:22 am

FrankChag wrote:
matr1x wrote:
FrankChag wrote:
bluefete wrote:
FrankChag wrote:
bluefete wrote:So a non-believer (in Allah?) can do all the good in this life but will NEVER enter heaven.

What about someone who believes in a Creator but does not call him Allah but God - will that person enter heaven?


Not only never, but the torment is eternal and worsens eternally. And they will see their palace in the Paradise that they would have gotten, had they believed. And worst, God will never entertain their pleas for pause or mercy. That is what a person chooses when they choose disbelief or they belie the Creator and Sustainer of this awesome, perfectly ordered creation.

As for the one who loves to Worship God the Most High ALONE, acknowledging that there is nothing worthy of worship except Him, without any children or parents or partners (ie, true monotheism), then if this is what is settled in a person's heart, then that person should ask Him (sincerely) for forgiveness, and guidance.


And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians),
unless it be in (a way) that is better (i.e., with good words and in good manner,
inviting them to Islâmic Monotheism with His Verses),
except with such of them as do wrong; and say (to them):
"We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you;
our Ilâh (God) and your Ilâh (God) is One (i.e. Allâh),
and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."
https://quran.com/29/46?translations=203

Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us
and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhîm (Abraham), Ismâ‘îl (Ishmael),
Ishâq (Isaac), Ya‘qûb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya‘qûb (Jacob)],
and that which has been given to Mûsâ (Moses) and ‘Îsâ (Jesus),
and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord.
We make no distinction between any of them,
and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm).
https://quran.com/2/136?translations=203




You have just condemned to hell, billions of people who have never heard of Allah.
The Islamic religion started with the Prophet Muhammad, not so?
So, all the people who lived before Muhammad - Will they rot in hell?
What about the people in India (Hindus); Native Americans, Africa, South Pacific who have never heard of Allah?
Fire for them as well?
This sounds very much like what Christians tell people of other religions.
There are millions of people who were born, lived and died and never heard of Jesus. Some Christians say those people can never enter heaven. Is that fair to them?
On the other hand, the 2nd 1/2 of your answer is most illuminating.


This is an understandable doubt, but certainly Allaah is the Best of Judges (https://quran.com/7/87). Firstly, Islaam means submission to God's Lordship and submission by worshiping Him Alone, so the general meaning of Islaam is the call to monotheism brought by each Prophet or Messenger that Allaah sent whenever a people deviated. This matter of people deviating from monotheism did not start with at the time of Muhammad ﷺ, but at the time of Noah when the people began worshiping statues of their pious ancestors. So Allaah sent Noah to his people to call them back to the monotheism established by Adam (upon whom be peace). So starting with Adam, to Noah (Nuh), to Abraham (Ibrahim), to David (Dawud), Solomon (Sulaymaan), Moses (Musa), to Isa (Jesus) to Muhammad, upon them all be Peace, these were all Prophets of Allah. There are some whose names we know, and many we don't, but we "make no distinction between any of them" (see above, https://quran.com/2/136?translations=203), because they all brought same message: "Worship the one true God, Alone". The true followers of all these Prophets were Muslims. Islaam in the specific sense is the final religion given to the final Messenger of Allaah to be sent, Muhammad ﷺ. So other Muslims who believed in Allaah and followed their Prophets will enter the Jannah (Paradise) just as the Muslims of today.

For example:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Every Prophet was given miracles because of which people believed, but what I have been given, is Divine Inspiration which Allah has revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will outnumber the followers of the other Prophets on the Day of Resurrection." https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4981

Regard those who were between Prophets, and/or someone who as never heard of Islaam, due to their geography, time, or they were senile or deaf, etc, then they will be raised up on the Day of Judgement and tested.

"Four will have proofs (in their favor) on the Day of Standing: (1) A deaf man who could not hear anything; (2) a fool (who could not understand anything); (3) a feebly old man; and (4) a man who died in the fatrah (the period between prophets). As for the deaf man, then he will say: 'My Lord, Islaam came and I did not hear anything.' And as for the fool, then he will say, 'My Lord, Islaam came and the children were throwing dung at me.' And as for the feebly old man, then he will say, 'My Lord, Islaam came and I did not understand anything.' And as for the one who died in the fatrah (period between prophets), then he will say, 'My Lord, no messenger from you came to me.' So He (Allaah) will take oaths from them that they will obey Him (in what He is about to request from them), so it (an order) will be sent to them: 'Enter the Fire!' And verily by Him in whose Hand is my soul, if they entered it, it will be cool and soothing."

Imaam Ahmad in his Musnad (16301); authenticated by Al-Albaanee in Silsilatul-Ahaadeethis-Saheehah (1424). http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessag ... Topic=4188

Those that disobeyed will be punished. And Allaah knows best.


See also https://abdurrahman.org/2020/01/16/defi ... -of-islam/




What kinda of rubbish you posting? That's some nazi 3rd Reich nonsense




"...And as for the fool, then he will say,
'My Lord, Islaam came and the children were throwing dung at me...'"



The merciful thing to do is to throw dung at you...
maybe you'll have an excuse with your Lord on the Day of Judgement.


You are proof that the Koran is just copy-paste from better religious texts

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby ruffneck_12 » February 3rd, 2023, 9:35 am

timelapse wrote:
ruffneck_12 wrote:How do I travel to heaven 8-)

Do I take the gold band or the silver band maxi 8-)
Walk through Sealots with a gold chain and a UNC jersey on about 2 AM.You will get to heaven very quickly.


Do i walk down through Bhagwansings side or by the Walkover side or after the walkover side 8-)

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby FrankChag » February 3rd, 2023, 10:50 am

matr1x wrote:
FrankChag wrote:
matr1x wrote:
FrankChag wrote:
bluefete wrote:
FrankChag wrote:
bluefete wrote:So a non-believer (in Allah?) can do all the good in this life but will NEVER enter heaven.

What about someone who believes in a Creator but does not call him Allah but God - will that person enter heaven?


Not only never, but the torment is eternal and worsens eternally. And they will see their palace in the Paradise that they would have gotten, had they believed. And worst, God will never entertain their pleas for pause or mercy. That is what a person chooses when they choose disbelief or they belie the Creator and Sustainer of this awesome, perfectly ordered creation.

As for the one who loves to Worship God the Most High ALONE, acknowledging that there is nothing worthy of worship except Him, without any children or parents or partners (ie, true monotheism), then if this is what is settled in a person's heart, then that person should ask Him (sincerely) for forgiveness, and guidance.


And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians),
unless it be in (a way) that is better (i.e., with good words and in good manner,
inviting them to Islâmic Monotheism with His Verses),
except with such of them as do wrong; and say (to them):
"We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you;
our Ilâh (God) and your Ilâh (God) is One (i.e. Allâh),
and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."
https://quran.com/29/46?translations=203

Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us
and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhîm (Abraham), Ismâ‘îl (Ishmael),
Ishâq (Isaac), Ya‘qûb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya‘qûb (Jacob)],
and that which has been given to Mûsâ (Moses) and ‘Îsâ (Jesus),
and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord.
We make no distinction between any of them,
and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm).
https://quran.com/2/136?translations=203




You have just condemned to hell, billions of people who have never heard of Allah.
The Islamic religion started with the Prophet Muhammad, not so?
So, all the people who lived before Muhammad - Will they rot in hell?
What about the people in India (Hindus); Native Americans, Africa, South Pacific who have never heard of Allah?
Fire for them as well?
This sounds very much like what Christians tell people of other religions.
There are millions of people who were born, lived and died and never heard of Jesus. Some Christians say those people can never enter heaven. Is that fair to them?
On the other hand, the 2nd 1/2 of your answer is most illuminating.


This is an understandable doubt, but certainly Allaah is the Best of Judges (https://quran.com/7/87). Firstly, Islaam means submission to God's Lordship and submission by worshiping Him Alone, so the general meaning of Islaam is the call to monotheism brought by each Prophet or Messenger that Allaah sent whenever a people deviated. This matter of people deviating from monotheism did not start with at the time of Muhammad ﷺ, but at the time of Noah when the people began worshiping statues of their pious ancestors. So Allaah sent Noah to his people to call them back to the monotheism established by Adam (upon whom be peace). So starting with Adam, to Noah (Nuh), to Abraham (Ibrahim), to David (Dawud), Solomon (Sulaymaan), Moses (Musa), to Isa (Jesus) to Muhammad, upon them all be Peace, these were all Prophets of Allah. There are some whose names we know, and many we don't, but we "make no distinction between any of them" (see above, https://quran.com/2/136?translations=203), because they all brought same message: "Worship the one true God, Alone". The true followers of all these Prophets were Muslims. Islaam in the specific sense is the final religion given to the final Messenger of Allaah to be sent, Muhammad ﷺ. So other Muslims who believed in Allaah and followed their Prophets will enter the Jannah (Paradise) just as the Muslims of today.

For example:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Every Prophet was given miracles because of which people believed, but what I have been given, is Divine Inspiration which Allah has revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will outnumber the followers of the other Prophets on the Day of Resurrection." https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4981

Regard those who were between Prophets, and/or someone who as never heard of Islaam, due to their geography, time, or they were senile or deaf, etc, then they will be raised up on the Day of Judgement and tested.

"Four will have proofs (in their favor) on the Day of Standing: (1) A deaf man who could not hear anything; (2) a fool (who could not understand anything); (3) a feebly old man; and (4) a man who died in the fatrah (the period between prophets). As for the deaf man, then he will say: 'My Lord, Islaam came and I did not hear anything.' And as for the fool, then he will say, 'My Lord, Islaam came and the children were throwing dung at me.' And as for the feebly old man, then he will say, 'My Lord, Islaam came and I did not understand anything.' And as for the one who died in the fatrah (period between prophets), then he will say, 'My Lord, no messenger from you came to me.' So He (Allaah) will take oaths from them that they will obey Him (in what He is about to request from them), so it (an order) will be sent to them: 'Enter the Fire!' And verily by Him in whose Hand is my soul, if they entered it, it will be cool and soothing."

Imaam Ahmad in his Musnad (16301); authenticated by Al-Albaanee in Silsilatul-Ahaadeethis-Saheehah (1424). http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessag ... Topic=4188

Those that disobeyed will be punished. And Allaah knows best.


See also https://abdurrahman.org/2020/01/16/defi ... -of-islam/




What kinda of rubbish you posting? That's some nazi 3rd Reich nonsense




"...And as for the fool, then he will say,
'My Lord, Islaam came and the children were throwing dung at me...'"



The merciful thing to do is to throw dung at you...
maybe you'll have an excuse with your Lord on the Day of Judgement.


You are proof that the Koran is just copy-paste from better religious texts


You are like the one who reads an article and yells plagiarism whenever the author cites his own work.


This is the Book (the Qur’ân),
whereof there is no doubt,
a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqûn (the pious).

https://quran.com/2/2


Do they not then consider the Qur’ân carefully?
Had it been from other than Allâh,
they would surely have found therein many a contradiction

https://quran.com/4/82


Or do they say: "He (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) has forged it?"
Say: "Bring then a Sûrah (chapter) like unto it,
and call upon whomsoever you can besides Allâh,
if you are truthful!"

https://quran.com/10/38


Say: "If the mankind and the jinn were together to produce the like of this Qur’ân,
they could not produce the like thereof,
even if they helped one another
."

https://quran.com/17/88


And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt
concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur’ân) to Our slave (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم),
then produce a Sûrah (chapter) of the like thereof
and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allâh,
if you are truthful.
But if you do it not, and you can never do it,
then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers

https://quran.com/2/23-24


Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur’ân)
and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)

https://quran.com/15/9


O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)!
Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم)
explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and pass over
(i.e. leaving out without explaining) much.
Indeed, there has come to you from Allâh a light (Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم)
and a plain Book (this Qur’ân)

https://quran.com/5/15

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby matr1x » February 3rd, 2023, 12:11 pm

I do not fear hell. Your religious book was made for 2nd century barbarians, not intellectual people of today

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby death365 » February 3rd, 2023, 12:20 pm

In the history of the human race
Of all the inspirations for the separation of man from his true tribal culture
Of all the inspirations for the acts of violence from one man onto another
From one nation onto another, from one oppressor onto the oppressed
There is no more guilty party and inspiration than those books known
As the Holy Bible, the Koran, and the Bagavad Gita to spread separation of mankind
(Band:Corporate Avenger)

truer words have NEVER BEEN SPOKEN IN LIFE

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timelapse
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby timelapse » February 3rd, 2023, 1:05 pm

ruffneck_12 wrote:
timelapse wrote:
ruffneck_12 wrote:How do I travel to heaven 8-)

Do I take the gold band or the silver band maxi 8-)
Walk through Sealots with a gold chain and a UNC jersey on about 2 AM.You will get to heaven very quickly.


Do i walk down through Bhagwansings side or by the Walkover side or after the walkover side 8-)
To the east of the walkover is the road that comes out by the warehouses.Theres a parlour there. Stand obliquely opposite the parlour.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby timelapse » February 3rd, 2023, 1:06 pm

death365 wrote:In the history of the human race
Of all the inspirations for the separation of man from his true tribal culture
Of all the inspirations for the acts of violence from one man onto another
From one nation onto another, from one oppressor onto the oppressed
There is no more guilty party and inspiration than those books known
As the Holy Bible, the Koran, and the Bagavad Gita to spread separation of mankind
(Band:Corporate Avenger)

truer words have NEVER BEEN SPOKEN IN LIFE
What about the Torah bhai?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby maj. tom » February 4th, 2023, 6:25 pm

The same type of fanaticism is reflected right here too.

Pakistan blocks Wikipedia for 'blasphemous content'

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-64523501

Wikipedia has been blocked in Pakistan for hosting "blasphemous content".

The move was announced on Saturday after the free online encyclopaedia was given a 48-hour deadline to remove some material.

The Pakistan Telecommunication Authority (PTA) said Wikipedia failed to comply with its ultimatum.

The Wikimedia Foundation, which hosts Wikipedia, said the ban meant Pakistanis would be denied access "to the largest free knowledge repository."

Blasphemy is a highly sensitive and incendiary issue in Pakistan.

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timelapse
TriniTuner 24-7
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Joined: June 20th, 2012, 7:13 pm

Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby timelapse » February 4th, 2023, 7:58 pm

Tuner would not survive a whole hour in Pakistan

matr1x
Trying to catch PATCH AND VEGA
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Joined: February 25th, 2017, 7:46 am

Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby matr1x » February 4th, 2023, 9:06 pm

Who would want to live there? It's a 3rd century country with a 1st century religion akin to bashing rocks together.

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