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All that, and they still gonna kill each otherBad Dog wrote:timelapse wrote:My prediction is that they will kill each other in the first year.Muslims in the east don't play well with neighbouring religions.FrankChag wrote:nismotrinidappa wrote:Frank chag are you aware of the Pope and Imam one world chrislam religion? Are you partaking? What are your thoughts?Bad Dog wrote:nismotrinidappa wrote:Frank chag are you aware of the Pope and Imam one world chrislam religion? Are you partaking? What are your thoughts?
Nismo are you referring to this:
https://backtojerusalem.com/one-world-r ... next-year/nismotrinidappa wrote:That's is one link yes. Also there are many smaller sections worldwide. What are your thoughts?
So that's NOT a one-world religion anything. It's just UAE project to house a Masjid, a Church and a Synagogue in three different structures on the same compound. On the face of it, seems like an interesting idea from the UAE King; and, it's sanctioned by the Pope and probably a leading Rabbi. IMHO, not seeing the problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_Family_House
https://www.mediaoffice.abudhabi/en/art ... struction/
The Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are of the same monotheistic faiths. However, the Jews the chosen people want to be superior to the others. The designation of being chosen is not to be superior but a responsibility. The Jews denied Christianity who in turn denied and demonized Islam. If you look at these religions from a historical perspective you will see that it is a continuum from the Old Testament, New Testament and The Quran. The Quran teaches us that Allah sent the Scriptures, Gospel and the Quran.
The Quran Surah 3: 67 Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian...
Quran Surah5:46...We sent Jesus the son of Mary...
Quran Surah 5: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein.
The Quran Surah 2:62: Those who believe in the Quran and those who follow the Jewish scriptures and the Christians and Sabians, -and who believe in Allah and the Last Day and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord. on them shall be no fear, nor grieve.
Most people who argues about religion are clueless and also, those who profess to have exclusive rights to God,
timelapse wrote:One world government.Sounds about right for these times
Nothing the Catholic Church does is ever for there's always a catchBad Dog wrote:timelapse wrote:One world government.Sounds about right for these times
This is not about converting everyone to one religion. ..more so, to accepting "others" and building places of worship for each religion. You know that there are Jews, Christian and other religious denominations in the Middle Eastern/Islamic countries. However, they are in the minority, e.g. Jews in Iran and Christians in Palestine.
York wrote:1. There is overwhelming evidence from the sayings of the Companions of the Prophet concerning that "laghw" idle talks IS music and singing. They lived with the prophet in the established Islamic State and knew when and the reason / application for each verse of the Quran revealed.bluefete wrote:
I do appreciate your explanations. However, you clearly stated that the belief that singing is haram is an "INTERPRETATION" by the Companions of the Prophet.
Did Prophet Muhammed ban singing? That is a moot point if the Qu'ran does not state so explicitly.
Interpretations of scripture by any religion can be a dangerous thing.
That is why, for example, we have people in Christianity who take one line from the Bible and make their own religion from it. Then, when you do read the entire passage, it has totally different meaning.
Good discussion though. Thanks.
2. Poetry is the thing of the day but singing was not! Men did not stand in front of ppl beautifying his voice with the objective of nowadays songs / music. It was for the content of the poetry itself. Like extempo without musical instruments!
3. Muslims like Inshan Ishmael do wrong by using music and don't represent the ideals of the religion as mentioned above. There is no difference of opinion by the scholars that INSTRUMENTS are impermissible ie sinful to use.
4. People were modest and music / singing was not an issue at that time. However, the evidences for rulings derived for passing judgment later on is there. That's the purpose of the scholars.
5. Singing and music is common in churches today but is there any evidence that Jesus or his immediate disciples used and encouraged them in preaching and worship? I don't think so. Bluefete?
bluefete wrote:York wrote:1. There is overwhelming evidence from the sayings of the Companions of the Prophet concerning that "laghw" idle talks IS music and singing. They lived with the prophet in the established Islamic State and knew when and the reason / application for each verse of the Quran revealed.bluefete wrote:
I do appreciate your explanations. However, you clearly stated that the belief that singing is haram is an "INTERPRETATION" by the Companions of the Prophet.
Did Prophet Muhammed ban singing? That is a moot point if the Qu'ran does not state so explicitly.
Interpretations of scripture by any religion can be a dangerous thing.
That is why, for example, we have people in Christianity who take one line from the Bible and make their own religion from it. Then, when you do read the entire passage, it has totally different meaning.
Good discussion though. Thanks.
2. Poetry is the thing of the day but singing was not! Men did not stand in front of ppl beautifying his voice with the objective of nowadays songs / music. It was for the content of the poetry itself. Like extempo without musical instruments!
3. Muslims like Inshan Ishmael do wrong by using music and don't represent the ideals of the religion as mentioned above. There is no difference of opinion by the scholars that INSTRUMENTS are impermissible ie sinful to use.
4. People were modest and music / singing was not an issue at that time. However, the evidences for rulings derived for passing judgment later on is there. That's the purpose of the scholars.
5. Singing and music is common in churches today but is there any evidence that Jesus or his immediate disciples used and encouraged them in preaching and worship? I don't think so. Bluefete?
LOL. As a matter of fact, Jesus did sing!
Matthew 26:
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Mark 14:
25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
26 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
Moses is a central figure in Islam, Judaism and Christianity:
After the Israelites crossed the Red Sea and the Egyptian army was destroyed, Moses and Miriam sang a song:
Exodus 15:
1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
2 The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
Then the Book of Revelation has these:
Revelation 15:
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
And also:
Revelation 14:
1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Notice that there are musical instruments in heaven.
Now back to Islam and music:
Recitation with a tune or melody can only be one of two things:
1. Tunes that a person naturally comes up with, without much conscious effort. This is what most people do when reciting Qur’an. So everyone who recites Qur’an in a melodious manner would not go beyond that simple way of coming up with a tune.
This is permissible, and it is a type of melodious recitation that is good and praiseworthy, as the Messenger of Allah (Sallahu Alahi wassalam) said: “He is not one of us who does not beautify his voice for the Qur’an.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh (7527). In this case the ruling is that it is permissible and mustahabb.
It really does depend on which sect one affiliates with that makes singing halal or haram!
https://madinahquranacademy.com/permiss ... dic-tunes/
Reciting the Quran like a Song
>> It is reported that a person recited in a melodious [1] way in front of Al-A’mash. He said: A man once recited in front of Anas [ibn Mālik – Allāh be pleased with him] in this manner and he detested it. {src: Abū Bakr Al-Khallāl, Al-Amr bil-Ma’rūf wa Al-Nahī ‘an Al-Munkar, p110.}
>> It is reported that Sālim [b. ‘Abdillāh b. ‘Umar b. Al-Khattāb] – Allāh have mercy on him – was asked to listen to someone leading the prayer. When he heard the recitation he turned back exclaiming: Singing! Singing! {src: Ibn Al-Jawzī, Al-Qussāṣ wa Al-Mudhakkirīn article 183.}
>> It is reported that there was a man who used to lead the prayer in Al-Madīnah. One night, he became euphoric (got carried away by emotion). [2] Al-Qāsim b. Muḥammad recited: <<Verily it is a mighty and noble Book. Falsehood does not approach it, neither before it nor behind. It is a revelation from the Most Wise, Most Praiseworthy.>> [Al-Quran, Fussilat: 41, 42] And he detested [the behavior of the reciter]. {src:Ibid. article 184.}
>> It is reported that Al-Fuḍayl b. ‘Ayyāḍ – Allāh have mercy on him – was asked about reciting the Qurān with melodies[1], to which he replied: This is something they took from singing. {src:Ibid. article 182}
>> Ibn Dāwūd [‘Abdullāh b. Dāwūd b. ‘Āmir Al-Khuraybī] – Allāh have mercy on him – was once asked by Bishr b. Al-Ḥārith: If I pass by a man reciting, should I sit and listen? He asked, “Does he become euphoric [2] (because of emotional recitation)?” Bishr replied, “Yes.” Ibn Dāwūd said, “He has shown his bid’ah (blameworthy innovation in the religion), do not sit with him.”
{src: Ibid article 186.}
>> Ḥanbal reports: Abū ‘Abdillāh (Imām Aḥmad) used to detest this innovated recitation which is called Al-Alḥān (melodious, musical recitation). {src:Ibid. article 187.}
>> And it is reported that Imām Aḥmad said: “This innovated recitation which is called Al-Alḥān, I detest it.” He was very strict against it. He said, “I believe it resembles singing, and the Qurān is to be preserved from this.” {src: Ibid. article 188.}
>> There are numerous narrations from Imām Aḥmad about this, amongst them: When asked about it once he said: It is something innovated. But [to recite in a beautiful voice is fine] if it is naturally his voice, as was Abū Mūsā [Al-Ash’arī – Allāh be pleased with him]. When asked about reciting with alḥān another time, he replied: No. [It is allowed] if that is his natural voice, like the voice of Abū Mūsā. As for learning how to recite like this, then no. He was asked about recitation with melodies and harmonies, to which he replied: “It is a bid’ah.” It was said to him, ‘They gather to listen to it.” He said, “Allāhul-musta’ān (‘Allāh is the one whose aid is sought’; a statement of sorrow and disapproval.)” Also, he said: It is a bid’ah, not to be listened to.
>> ‘Abdullāh b. Yazīd Al-‘Anbarī reports: A man once asked Aḥmad b. Ḥanbal: “What do you say about reciting with alḥān?” Abu ‘Abdillāh said, “What is your name?” The man replied, “Muḥammad.” Imām Aḥmad said, “So would you like to be called Mooḥammad?” {src: Al-Khallāl, op. cit., p99+.}
>> Imām Mālik – Allāh have mercy on him – said: I do not like reciting in melodies, neither in Ramadan nor at other times, because it resembles singing, and it causes the Qurān to be laughed at. It is said ‘this person is a better reciter than that person (the Quran becomes the subject of rivalry and entertainment). It has reached me that the slave-girls are taught to recite like this as they are taught how to sing. Do you think this was the way Allāh’s Messenger – peace and blessings be upon him – used to recite? {src:Al-Qayrawānī, Kitāb Al-Jāmi’ p166.}
[1] Arabic: Alḥān. This refers to reciting in a melodious, song-like tone. See notes.
[2] Arabic: Al-ṭarb. This refers to a state of emotional intensity which may bring about physical expression. See notes.
Notes
After relating some of these traditions, Ibn Al-Jawzī states:
Know that melodious musical recitation (Al-Alḥān) is detested for a number of reasons, amongst others: [its reciters] merge letters that are not supposed to be merged, they extend vowels (madd) where there should be no extension, and they omit the hamzah and the doubling of consonants (tashdīd) just in order to preserve the melody. Also, this kind of recitation causes people to get emotionally carried away (al-ṭarb) and it distracts people from pondering the Quran. [3]
Explaining the type of recitation that is praiseworthy and the type that is detestable, Ibn Kathīr states:
What is sought in the Sharī’ah (teachings of Islam) is the type of beautification of the voice that leads to pondering the Quran and seeking to understand it, to submission, humility and compliance with the obedience [of Allah].
As for using voices with novel melodies, composed on distracting and entertaining rhythms and musical rules, then the Quran is far removed from this and is too respected and esteemed to have this approach taken in its delivery.[4]
[3] Ibn Al-Jawzī, Al-Qussāṣ wa Al-Mudhakkirīn p335.
[4] Ibn Kathīr, Faḍā`il Al-Qurān p198.
from: https://www.sayingsofthesalaf.net/recit ... ke-a-song/
timelapse wrote:So sing it, but don't sing it?
Subjectivity is a hell of a thing.
I imagine some poor fool in the middle east get publicly stoned for not singing it enough one day, and get stoned again for singing it too much the next day.
Listening to some of them fellas call Adhaan, I would ban singing toobluefete wrote:timelapse wrote:So sing it, but don't sing it?
Subjectivity is a hell of a thing.
I imagine some poor fool in the middle east get publicly stoned for not singing it enough one day, and get stoned again for singing it too much the next day.
So the bottom line in all this is that if you choose to praise Allah by singing - Fire Bun You!
Like ALL religions, you have to wonder about the mind-set of the men who came up with these things.
timelapse wrote:Listening to some of them fellas call Adhaan, I would ban singing toobluefete wrote:timelapse wrote:So sing it, but don't sing it?
Subjectivity is a hell of a thing.
I imagine some poor fool in the middle east get publicly stoned for not singing it enough one day, and get stoned again for singing it too much the next day.
So the bottom line in all this is that if you choose to praise Allah by singing - Fire Bun You!
Like ALL religions, you have to wonder about the mind-set of the men who came up with these things.
Rovin wrote:man big fontin n ting ... i supposed dise for d ppl with poor eyesight orrr
1 lil post i make last wk bout somebody playing a song & look at how it brought back life to this topic ...
I said 100 Hail Satans and drank the tears of an orphan.I think I repented enoughnismotrinidappa wrote:Timelapse behave yourself and repent
matr1x wrote:Wait, catholics and underage kids, Mohammed and 9 year old child. Hinduism and child marriages.
These religious icons have problems
South American Catholics a lil weird They have the whole Santaria faction aka Spanish obeahmatr1x wrote:That take holy and make it holey.
But isn't Venezuela a devout catholic country. Tell you alot.
And middle east too. Tells you plenty
The early Christians used to sing the Psalms much like reciting the Quran.bluefete wrote:Rovin wrote:man big fontin n ting ... i supposed dise for d ppl with poor eyesight orrr
1 lil post i make last wk bout somebody playing a song & look at how it brought back life to this topic ...
Well, you should be glad.
I am sure many people, including Muslims, were enlightened by what you wrote, and the discussion it engendered.
York wrote:The early Christians used to sing the Psalms much like reciting the Quran.bluefete wrote:Rovin wrote:man big fontin n ting ... i supposed dise for d ppl with poor eyesight orrr
1 lil post i make last wk bout somebody playing a song & look at how it brought back life to this topic ...
Well, you should be glad.
I am sure many people, including Muslims, were enlightened by what you wrote, and the discussion it engendered.
What you quoted from Matthew was not in formal worship setting, so again it could like how Muslims recite the verses of God, the Quran.
Singing was not formally introduced into Christian worship until the 16th Century, why? And maybe it existed before that but after their meetings after they had their meals. So again not in formal worship.
Singing and reciting are two different things as has been established. Who knows what the original language in the Bible really referred to? Is it singing or reciting? And I don't think musical instruments were included or were commanded.
The yardstick being used is the practise of the followers not the scripture itself and the command or practise of the prophets. Innovation creeps in brought upon by influence of the culture and society. Just like formal gospel music developed together with the music industry of the 20th century.
Muslims say Jesus was a Muslim...bluefete wrote:York wrote:The early Christians used to sing the Psalms much like reciting the Quran.bluefete wrote:Rovin wrote:man big fontin n ting ... i supposed dise for d ppl with poor eyesight orrr
1 lil post i make last wk bout somebody playing a song & look at how it brought back life to this topic ...
Well, you should be glad.
I am sure many people, including Muslims, were enlightened by what you wrote, and the discussion it engendered.
What you quoted from Matthew was not in formal worship setting, so again it could like how Muslims recite the verses of God, the Quran.
Singing was not formally introduced into Christian worship until the 16th Century, why? And maybe it existed before that but after their meetings after they had their meals. So again not in formal worship.
Singing and reciting are two different things as has been established. Who knows what the original language in the Bible really referred to? Is it singing or reciting? And I don't think musical instruments were included or were commanded.
The yardstick being used is the practise of the followers not the scripture itself and the command or practise of the prophets. Innovation creeps in brought upon by influence of the culture and society. Just like formal gospel music developed together with the music industry of the 20th century.
When Christians introduced music in their worship sessions does not change what went before.
Jesus was a Jew and followed Jewish practices. Whether in a formal or informal setting does not change the fact the Jesus and his disciples SANG together.
Like I stated before, depending on which branch / sect of the religion you grew up in - if you sing, is hell fire and eternal damnation for you.
So people who say that singing is of and from the devil must explain why God gave us voices that can be used to both sing and recite. SMDH
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