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Lets talk CNG

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jerry88
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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby jerry88 » January 16th, 2020, 8:29 pm

cck2 wrote:i have a toyota fielder cvt tranny with cng and it jerks alot
went back bermac they telling me after the put it in
o yes cvt does do that and they dont know why

Change spark plugs and gap at .8mm

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby jerry88 » January 16th, 2020, 8:34 pm

sMASH wrote:what does reducing the gap do?

It reduces the amount of power required to activate the spark plug to burn CNG and eliminate the misfiring that causes the and jerking.
I have cng for the past 2 years and works excellent.

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby jerry88 » January 16th, 2020, 8:43 pm

nemisis wrote:
nervewrecker wrote:You never hear these kinda stories at dumore. Customer service is always top off the line. Techs are certified and take great care in their installs. They usually take everything into consideration and fabricate stuff if needed. They take the car for a spin and make sure its tuned properly.

i Have personally and stilllll have a jerking issue with a dumore instal. Their customer service is good yes ( hence why you not hearing about these things by dumore) but that doesn't mean there are not any issues. Things i have done outside of having dumore go over the settings include changing coil packs and spark plugs. Still getting jerky drive and severe loss of power on inclines. None of these issues occur on super. The Quality of life with respect to driving since cng has been horrible but the fuel costs............

Re gap your spark plugs to 0.8mm exactly and you will get much better performance on CNG. If possible and you can get a colder plug will assist to completly eliminate the jerking effect.

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby adnj » January 18th, 2020, 8:26 am

jerry88 wrote:
sMASH wrote:what does reducing the gap do?

It reduces the amount of power required to activate the spark plug to burn CNG and eliminate the misfiring that causes the and jerking.
I have cng for the past 2 years and works excellent.
I agree with what you're saying but tuning the spark plug is common for every IC engine and depends on both how the engine runs AND how you operate it.

Get a colder (shorter insulator) plug if you see/notice high temperature discoloration. A colder plug will transfer heat to the block more quickly but will worsen cold-start issues

Decrease your gap (0.010" is a good guess) if you get hesitation. A smaller gap allows for lower voltage ignition at the cost of fuel economy.

Iridium plugs will last longer than platinum. Platinum will last longer than standard. There are also LPG/CNG plugs that usually outlast anything else in a CNG engine if you don't do maintenance often.

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sMASH
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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby sMASH » January 18th, 2020, 8:34 am

sooo, the solutions recommended seems to indicate a high temperature in the system if it were normally set up.

when i first got my system tested and tuned in dumore, i told the guy i wanted it running as rich as the system could safely allow.

i dont get the problems associated with those solutions, but, i did notice that my plugs burn out quicker than what i was accustomed to in the past.

so i think i will try to get the irridiums, and probably later, try the re-gapping.

(donkey years ago, i used to gyap plugs, ole time ting come back)

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby maj. tom » January 18th, 2020, 8:51 am

In modern gasoline engines, some of them state on the cover and in the manual do not gap the iridium spark plugs. They state a very specific spark plug code for the iridium Denso or NGK in the user manual. Especially Honda engines.

And i'm reading that it may be unwise to gap iridium spark plugs unless you really have to, because if it's wrong it will destroy the core. So make sure you're very precise and fit the exact specs when doing it.

Before attempting to gap any DENSO Iridium Power spark plug, please review the specification chart in the front of this catalog to verify the factory-preset gap. In most cases your Iridium Power plugs do not need to be gapped. Even with small variations in the factory set gap the ultra-efficient firing power design will compensate for those small variations. Should you decide to re-gap your Iridium Power plug, use extreme caution as improper gapping may damage or destroy the Iridium center electrode or porcelain center.
https://densoautoparts.com/spark-plug-installation

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sMASH
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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby sMASH » January 18th, 2020, 10:01 am

maj. tom wrote:In modern gasoline engines, some of them state on the cover and in the manual do not gap the iridium spark plugs. They state a very specific spark plug code for the iridium Denso or NGK in the user manual. Especially Honda engines.

And i'm reading that it may be unwise to gap iridium spark plugs unless you really have to, because if it's wrong it will destroy the core. So make sure you're very precise and fit the exact specs when doing it.

Before attempting to gap any DENSO Iridium Power spark plug, please review the specification chart in the front of this catalog to verify the factory-preset gap. In most cases your Iridium Power plugs do not need to be gapped. Even with small variations in the factory set gap the ultra-efficient firing power design will compensate for those small variations. Should you decide to re-gap your Iridium Power plug, use extreme caution as improper gapping may damage or destroy the Iridium center electrode or porcelain center.
https://densoautoparts.com/spark-plug-installation


that caution is because of the damage to the plug it self, that might occur if u bend the hard metal. its a chance of breaking the plug if u decide to gap it. cause i suspect, the metal is so stiff, compared to the ceramic.
not so much damage to the engine as such. but, if u do gap it and it gets a micro fracture, it might spread over time, and fail later, which in turn might damage the engine... eventually

it might beneficial to find out what gapping the factory cng vehicles use. and can probably find a factory aftermarket already gapped to that, and then test.

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nemisis
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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby nemisis » March 28th, 2020, 6:29 am

Cocoyea has station is closed until further notice as of yesterday. So no where in south to get CNG.

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superstainless1250
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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby superstainless1250 » March 28th, 2020, 8:01 am

Certain businesses taking precautionary measures for themselves an there employees but cng is essential
FB_IMG_1585347104243.jpeg

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nemisis
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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby nemisis » March 28th, 2020, 8:18 am

Of all the stations the only one in south to provide cng!. I could imagine some taxis, not only you have to run half load but also on super. I can see the american taxi pricing being the norm where you pay for the whole trip.

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sMASH
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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby sMASH » March 28th, 2020, 8:55 am

the station not making enough cng sales to sustain all those salaries. remember it was the ttec bill for the compressor that cause them to shut down the last time.
no volume, no profit, take a two weeks for corona.

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby sMASH » March 28th, 2020, 9:16 am

dem association supposed to jump out and say the fare will hadda double for the two week period. what ever u accustomed paying, is jess double dat. and is only for the two weeks.

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby nemisis » March 28th, 2020, 9:46 am

A problem unique to this station. And if that was the stance how hard is it to have a release or sign up. You have physically go and ask the watchman staff if they have any idea what's going on.
sMASH wrote:the station not making enough cng sales to sustain all those salaries. remember it was the ttec bill for the compressor that cause them to shut down the last time.
no volume, no profit, take a two weeks for corona.

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby sMASH » March 28th, 2020, 10:06 am

nemisis wrote:A problem unique to this station. And if that was the stance how hard is it to have a release or sign up. You have physically go and ask the watchman staff if they have any idea what's going on.
sMASH wrote:the station not making enough cng sales to sustain all those salaries. remember it was the ttec bill for the compressor that cause them to shut down the last time.
no volume, no profit, take a two weeks for corona.


i have a feeling the other stations will fold up too, in a couple days.

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dreamyn
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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby dreamyn » August 21st, 2020, 12:54 pm

Thinking about installing a CNG kit into my Tiida HATCHBACK, anyone did this and got any advice?

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nemisis
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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby nemisis » August 21st, 2020, 1:14 pm

Don't bother, what ever you plan on saving will be lost in coil packs you will need too change
dreamyn wrote:Thinking about installing a CNG kit into my Tiida HATCHBACK, anyone did this and got any advice?

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agent007
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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby agent007 » August 21st, 2020, 2:40 pm

This coil pack failure thing is no joke nah. Based on what I am hearing, Elantra's and Cerato's that converted to CNG has almost a 100% failure rate. What about the added weight on the rear springs and shocks? The necessary camber/toe adjustments for the back wheels if necessary? How do you all feel with your carpeting being dug up and holes drilled into the unibody frame? Some people lose the fold-down back-seat/trunk pass through feature and really, how do you all feel about that pressurized tank mere inches away from the spine of a back seat occupant? What about rear crumple zone deformation, how would the tank and brackets affect the body's ability to deform in a calculated way in the event of a severe rear impact?

Selling a used CNG retrofitted vehicle is buying into trouble.

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby maj. tom » August 21st, 2020, 2:55 pm

From reading this and the other CNG threads i would have thought that the consensus is that the CNG glory days are done and over. It was just a lot of false promises and over-hyped on paper, but not working out too well in practical terms. Not just for the consumers, but for the delivery stations as well.

Consumers looking to the hybrid and EV tech now.

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jhonnieblue
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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby jhonnieblue » August 21st, 2020, 3:24 pm

Glad people finally realizing this. I sold my van not to long after I converted and went hybrid. Best decision ever. CNG is a gimmick. Lack of service stations and low mileage. I wasted to much times going to get CNG out of my usual way home.

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby kamakazi » August 21st, 2020, 4:11 pm

Care to elaborate on coil pack failures... That sounds strange unless they need to work it harder cause it is harder to create a spark.
agent007 wrote:This coil pack failure thing is no joke nah. Based on what I am hearing, Elantra's and Cerato's that converted to CNG has almost a 100% failure rate. What about the added weight on the rear springs and shocks? The necessary camber/toe adjustments for the back wheels if necessary? How do you all feel with your carpeting being dug up and holes drilled into the unibody frame? Some people lose the fold-down back-seat/trunk pass through feature and really, how do you all feel about that pressurized tank mere inches away from the spine of a back seat occupant? What about rear crumple zone deformation, how would the tank and brackets affect the body's ability to deform in a calculated way in the event of a severe rear impact?

Selling a used CNG retrofitted vehicle is buying into trouble.

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby racedriverpro » August 21st, 2020, 4:28 pm

Possibly the leaner burn creating more heat. The engine wasn't designed to be CNG conversion friendly.

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby maj. tom » August 21st, 2020, 5:04 pm

kamakazi wrote:Care to elaborate on coil pack failures... That sounds strange unless they need to work it harder cause it is harder to create a spark.
agent007 wrote:This coil pack failure thing is no joke nah. Based on what I am hearing, Elantra's and Cerato's that converted to CNG has almost a 100% failure rate. What about the added weight on the rear springs and shocks? The necessary camber/toe adjustments for the back wheels if necessary? How do you all feel with your carpeting being dug up and holes drilled into the unibody frame? Some people lose the fold-down back-seat/trunk pass through feature and really, how do you all feel about that pressurized tank mere inches away from the spine of a back seat occupant? What about rear crumple zone deformation, how would the tank and brackets affect the body's ability to deform in a calculated way in the event of a severe rear impact?

Selling a used CNG retrofitted vehicle is buying into trouble.



Answer given in this thread: https://www.cngchat.com/forum/cng-vehic ... -05-models

I know these newer engines require the spark plugs to be torqued very precisely to maintain the proper resistance and not burn out the coil packs. I saw on ChrisFix that he referenced a manual and did his on a car to exactly 15 ft-lb when he changed his plugs.
NGK has a reference on how to tighten the spark plugs: http://www.ngk-sparkplugs.jp/english/te ... index.html (so now you guys know).

Further in the thread they say that CNG requires a very precise and tuned ignition system and it takes more energy to burn CNG than petrol. So an ignition system cannot be setup for that alternating dual fuel precision because the car is rigged to burn CNG and and then petrol at the flick of a switch.

If CNG is harder to ignite then logic should follow that it would lead to more residue in the injectors and hence clog more which would lead to misfire. This would further add resistance and cause related problems. https://www.cngchat.com/forum/cng-vehic ... -cavaliers

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby agent007 » August 21st, 2020, 11:57 pm


“Tests to measure the maximum horsepower of commercial vehicles converted for use with natural gas fuel indicate a reduction of approximately 20% in horsepower compared with gasoline-driven vehicles. This reduction in horsepower resulting from the use of gas is due basically to the lower thermal efficiency of the cycle of natural gas compared with that of gasoline and to its lower volumetric efficiency, since natural gas is injected into the combustion chamber in gaseous form, unlike gasoline, in which part of the fuel entering the cylinder is in the liquid phase. Natural gas used as a fuel generates lower quantities of air pollutants, particularly unburned hydrocarbons (HCs) and carbon monoxide (CO). Despite the downside of reduced horsepower, the use of natural gas as a fuel for automotive vehicles equipped with Otto-cycle engines is economically viable owing to the wide availability of natural gas.
” - researchgate.net

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby kamakazi » August 22nd, 2020, 3:12 am

So I think I have found my answer and it is a couple of things.

Recommendations by autolite for CNG converted vehicles include:
Colder heat range plugs; which leads me to believe that it runs slightly hotter which could be because it runs leaner and there is no cooling effect from liquid fuels)

Fine tip iridium electrode and
Narrower plug gap (because it is harder to ignite, narrowing the gap and having finer electrode tips gives the coil less of a challenge to create the spark. The more durable iridium alloy allows the set spark plug gap to be maintained over a longer period of time which will require less removal and checking, and not significantly increase the load on the coil as the combustion events add up)

I have to say the theory on improperly torqued spark plugs affecting its resistance sounds really really really far fetched.
If anything improperly tightened plugs allowing combustion gases to escape can expose them them to unnecessary heat which will definitely shorten their(*edit; coil) lifespan. Resistance is mostly affected by the spark plug gap

The statement that you quoted that because something is harder to ignite it must leave deposits. That logic is a bit too simple to apply here.

In this case specifically we are looking at octane rating. The octane rating of diesel fuel is much lower than that of CNG (which is predominately methane). You don't really have to guess which one burns cleaner.
To add to the complexity different isomers of octane have a different octane rating.
Last edited by kamakazi on August 22nd, 2020, 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby adnj » August 22nd, 2020, 8:00 am

kamakazi wrote:So I think I have found my answer and it is a couple of things.

Recommendations by autolite for CNG converted vehicles include:
Colder heat range plugs; which leads me to believe that it runs slightly hotter which could be because it runs leaner and there is no cooling effect from liquid fuels)

Fine tip iridium electrode and
Narrower plug gap (because it is harder to ignite, narrowing the gap and having finer electrode tips gives the coil less of a challenge to create the spark. The more durable iridium alloy allows the set spark plug gap to be maintained over a longer period of time which will require less removal and checking, and not significantly increase the load on the coil as the combustion events add up)

I have to say the theory on improperly torqued spark plugs affecting its resistance sounds really really really far fetched.
If anything improperly tightened plugs allowing combustion gases to escape can expose them them to unnecessary heat which will definitely shorten their lifespan. Resistance is mostly affected by the spark plug gap


The statement that you quoted that because something is harder to ignite it must leave deposits. That logic is a bit too simple to apply here.

In this case specifically we are looking at octane rating. The octane rating of diesel fuel is much lower than that of CNG (which is predominately methane). You don't really have to guess which one burns cleaner.
To add to the complexity different isomers of octane have a different octane rating.


Improper installation and torque on spark plug replacement can lead to cracked insulators, gas blow-by, and cross-threading.

Increased resistance can be caused by increased spark plug service temperatures, incomplete surface-to-surface interface at the threads and seat (where the majority of thermal transfer occurs), or conductor oxidization or sooting from gas blow-by increasing the thermal transfer threshold (heat transfer efficiency principle).

Conductors exhibit a positive temperature coefficient of resistance and become more resistive with increased temperature.

Spark plug failure occurs with cracked insulators.

Image

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby Ted_v2 » August 22nd, 2020, 5:40 pm

What coilpacks you does use guys?
foreign used?
brand new wingwong from a partsplace?
or genuine from a dealer?

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MarlonSam
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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby MarlonSam » August 23rd, 2020, 4:47 am

Anyone know of any ongoing contest for a free cng conversion?

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby daring dragoon » August 23rd, 2020, 5:30 am

check cng website https://cng.co.tt/ but i think the contest over as the site saying cycle 2 ended. i feel suspicious about this contest, maybe if you know someone working ngc maybe they cud link a win for yuh.

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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby Hwells » August 23rd, 2020, 6:50 am

CNG was always a failure trying to get a piece of the market share from the start.

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nemisis
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Re: Lets talk CNG

Postby nemisis » August 23rd, 2020, 6:52 am

I changed twice ist set of 3 original and after 4 months I changed 2 to generic
Ted_v2 wrote:What coilpacks you does use guys?
foreign used?
brand new wingwong from a partsplace?
or genuine from a dealer?

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