The Religion Discussion

[AdamB]

It's unfortunate that believers in GOD decide to show up when the word "POLYTHEISM" is mentioned but were conveniently absent when mankind was saying that stripclubs are morally good.

However, Allah (the Arabic word meaning THE ONE TRUE GOD) accepts only that which is good!!

how many names does Allah have? Does each of those names mean that muslims worship 99 gods?
quote]
http://abdurrahman.org/audio/SalehAsSal ... ful_Names/

If you want the answer to the above question, I suggest that you listen to the mp3 explanation. A practical way is to download, put on a CD and listen in your car while driving.

[trini mk5]

^^:lol:

[MG Man]

notice how he sidestep me busy busy eh..........google eh give him ah response yet

[RBphoto]

And he completely ignored the fact that I am NOT saying that Islam has 99 gods, but that people who he is calling polytehis call the same god many names as well and believe in one devine being.

[AdamB]

notice how he sidestep me busy busy eh..........google eh give him ah response yet

Response to what? How yuh side step the good / evil question by slandering the prophet of Allah?

[d spike]

Since my post was deleted (why, I don't know) I need to not step on the corns that seem to have appeared, and since someone seems hell-bent on demanding morality be discussed, here is what I have to say on the matter (without mashing anyone's corns):
In Cuba, if you pay a man to get piston-rings for your Chevy, he will go in the back, pick up a few milk-tins, and carefully craft the rings for you - and you will call him a "God-send"...
In Trinidad, if you catch a man building your paid-for piston-rings out of milk-tins, you would never forgive him - assuming you don't remove any body-parts first.

The morality of a situation depends on the person within the situation, NOT the person viewing it from outside... hence the reasons why true believers in the Divine, leave judgement up to the Divine.

It is far too easy (and far too common) for believers to assume the morality they acquire should be projected on others.

...we are all called to walk a path. Each of us has our own path. To stop walking in order to start directing traffic, or to go and drag people off their path to walk alongside you, may not be the best thing for that person.

...Reserve your ability to judge for yourself and your own actions - that is what it's for. Directing it outward warps it's ability to do good and to better oneself.

[AdamB]

I am here now, and I am self aware..........when I die,I have no reason to believe there is anything afterward........my consciousness will fade and I will once again become star dust
That is enough for me..........however, for most people, this is not a pleasant thought, hence, mankind's consciousness creates the idea of god to help him feel relevant in the big scheme of things........and growing out of the idea of god, is the idea of religion, as a need for social control and maintaining the cultural status quo.........religion is a an evolutionary response

re your good / evil questions, good and evil are just words applied to certain groups of perceptions
The same way you justify allegations of the prophet being a pedophile by saying what is bad now, was acceptable back then.....

So you have no purpose, you will return to dust, you are nothing (but dust)?

Good and evil are NOT just words "applied to certain groups of perceptions". You know the difference, also between right and wrong, that's built into your DNA man.

Even the atheist nations / people know that and behave accordingly. The question is: Why don't they behave like murdering, stealing and abuse is the good thing to do and vice versa (that charity, fairness, etc is bad)?

How come there isn't a conflict to have a paradigm shift?

[AdamB]

And he completely ignored the fact that I am NOT saying that Islam has 99 gods, but that people who he is calling polytehis call the same god many names as well and believe in one devine being.

Bro,
There's difference between names related to perfect intangible attributes of GOD and inventing names and persons for GOD THAT HE DID NOT APPROVE OR REVEAL.

Also, many worship some aspect of the Creation of GOD rather than GOD himself.

Take a look at these names and compare with what followers of other religions worship. There is no "picture" of GOD in Islam, GOD is not a man / human, not a magnificent creation or the like. There is none like unto Him!

His Names are not without meaning and we do not liken Him to the Creation or the Creation to Him. If we say the SWORD IS SHARPER THAN THE STICK, doesn't that diminish the sharpness of the sword (as any sword may be sharper than a stick, even a dull one)?

There are other principles related to the names and attributes that I will not mention here but the knowledge is there and established.

http://abdurrahman.org/tawheed/asmawasi ... s-sadi.pdf

[AdamB]

Since my post was deleted (why, I don't know) I need to not step on the corns that seem to have appeared, and since someone seems hell-bent on demanding morality be discussed, here is what I have to say on the matter (without mashing anyone's corns):
In Cuba, if you pay a man to get piston-rings for your Chevy, he will go in the back, pick up a few milk-tins, and carefully craft the rings for you - and you will call him a "God-send"...
In Trinidad, if you catch a man building your paid-for piston-rings out of milk-tins, you would never forgive him - assuming you don't remove any body-parts first.

The morality of a situation depends on the person within the situation, NOT the person viewing it from outside... hence the reasons why true believers in the Divine, leave judgement up to the Divine.

It is far too easy (and far too common) for believers to assume the morality they acquire should be projected on others.

...we are all called to walk a path. Each of us has our own path. To stop walking in order to start directing traffic, or to go and drag people off their path to walk alongside you, may not be the best thing for that person.

...Reserve your ability to judge for yourself and your own actions - that is what it's for. Directing it outward warps it's ability to do good and to better oneself.

As a follower of some version of Christianity (even if it be your own), are you saying that GOD did not reveal to the prophets of old laws for society based on morals or out of which morals were developed?

There is right and wrong (legal and illegal, permissible and impermissible according to GOD's laws) and situations that lead to oppression and disobedience to GOD and His Laws.

Is it a "free for all" and man has none of these laws to which he must live? It's certainly not that way in Islam, GOD is the legislator, the One who has made the laws for us to live by.

[MG Man]

I am here now, and I am self aware..........when I die,I have no reason to believe there is anything afterward........my consciousness will fade and I will once again become star dust
That is enough for me..........however, for most people, this is not a pleasant thought, hence, mankind's consciousness creates the idea of god to help him feel relevant in the big scheme of things........and growing out of the idea of god, is the idea of religion, as a need for social control and maintaining the cultural status quo.........religion is a an evolutionary response

re your good / evil questions, good and evil are just words applied to certain groups of perceptions
The same way you justify allegations of the prophet being a pedophile by saying what is bad now, was acceptable back then.....

So you have no purpose, you will return to dust, you are nothing (but dust)?

Good and evil are NOT just words "applied to certain groups of perceptions". You know the difference, also between right and wrong, that's built into your DNA man.

Even the atheist nations / people know that and behave accordingly. The question is: Why don't they behave like murdering, stealing and abuse is the good thing to do and vice versa (that charity, fairness, etc is bad)?

How come there isn't a conflict to have a paradigm shift?

same reason wild animals don't destroy each other in savage madness.............it's hard wired into the evolutionary process
the argument that without god, we descend into anarchy is a very weak one buddy

[RBphoto]

And he completely ignored the fact that I am NOT saying that Islam has 99 gods, but that people who he is calling polytehis call the same god many names as well and believe in one devine being.

Bro,
There's difference between names related to perfect intangible attributes of GOD and inventing names and persons for GOD THAT HE DID NOT APPROVE OR REVEAL.
Also, many worship some aspect of the Creation of GOD rather than GOD himself.

Take a look at these names and compare with what followers of other religions worship. There is no "picture" of GOD in Islam, GOD is not a man / human, not a magnificent creation or the like. There is none like unto Him!
His Names are not without meaning and we do not liken Him to the Creation or the Creation to Him. If we say the SWORD IS SHARPER THAN THE STICK, doesn't that diminish the sharpness of the sword (as any sword may be sharper than a stick, even a dull one)?

There are other principles related to the names and attributes that I will not mention here but the knowledge is there and established.

http://abdurrahman.org/tawheed/asmawasi ... s-sadi.pdf

1) Your version of god did not approve another religion's name of god does not invalidate another persons's religion or prove anything.

2) IS the reason that Islam has no picture/ of "god" because the cave dwellers who made that stuff up had no imagination or no paint? Valid argument for not wanting to waste water in the middle of the desert.

[MG Man]

I still waiting for the verifiable historical evidence of the presence of islam prior to ~1400 years ago...where was it practiced, under what name, etc
It still seems too convenient to me that a religion could spring up, and claim it was there before, and then proceeds to borrow all the major characters from another religion, and then put its own spin on them.....Abraham was a muslim and the authors of the bible didn't realize it? really?

[bluefete]

I am here now, and I am self aware..........when I die,I have no reason to believe there is anything afterward........my consciousness will fade and I will once again become star dust
That is enough for me..........however, for most people, this is not a pleasant thought, hence, mankind's consciousness creates the idea of god to help him feel relevant in the big scheme of things........and growing out of the idea of god, is the idea of religion, as a need for social control and maintaining the cultural status quo.........religion is a an evolutionary response

re your good / evil questions, good and evil are just words applied to certain groups of perceptions
The same way you justify allegations of the prophet being a pedophile by saying what is bad now, was acceptable back then.....

Hey MGMan: That is a fair enough statement. Does its principles guide how you live your life presently? Once your consciousness fades, there is nothing forever after that? Then what is the purpose of this short life of our?

Is there a definitive view of right and wrong?

[bluefete]

Crazed attacker holds ice pick at child's throat, woman calmly holds up crucifix to stop him

Reimer Parparan, 24, held the ice pick to Mark Jason Pineda's throat as a woman calmly approached the scene holding a crucifix to the aggressor.


Woman holds crucifix up to teeth-baring kidnapper in Quezon City, Philippines early Saturday morning.

Wielding an ice pick, a crazed young man held a nine-year-old hostage in an event that easily could have turned tragic in Quezon City, Philippines early Saturday morning.

Reimer Parparan, 24, held the ice pick to Mark Jason Pineda's throat as a woman calmly approached the scene holding a crucifix to the aggressor. The woman is believed to be Mark's mother, reports the Daily Mail.

The Quezon City Police Department exercised diplomacy to recover the child. The hostage negotiator chose to wait and wear down the assailant rather than enact a tactical maneuver.

The suspect "appeared to be suffering from a mental breakdown and has no clear demands for his brash actions," reports the Quezon City Police District.

The assailant requested drinking water, which allowed police an opportunity to negotiate. The standoff ended around 7:30 a.m., about eight and a half hours after Parparan initially kidnapped the child.

Mark had two small cuts on his neck from the ice pick but was otherwise unscathed.

"Rational diplomatic approach was the weapon of choice," according to QCPD chief, Gen. Dela Vega.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/c ... z21f01LT1s

[bluefete]

I was not referring to the prophets, but rather the average insecure Joe, who feels the need to create and dominate little information-lacking cul-de-sacs like this one, to boost his ego, mistaking vanity and blindness for religious superiority.

Before anyone gets all hot and sweaty under the collar about this remark, stop and THINK for a while.
If this insults you, it's for one of two reasons:
Either the cap fits most comfortably; or
You are not aware of the following...

For a thread that has rambled on and on and on for three hundred and more pages on the topic of religion, one would think that the more learned tuner folks would have taken part in said discussion... but this isn't so.
Looking at other threads, it is quite clear that there are more than a few tuners who are well versed in their respective religions - yet they don't post here. Why?

People who clearly think rationally (and this is something one can tell by the manner in which they present arguments) often steer clear of this thread. Why?

Illuminati, Lola... as for Humes, I was amazed when I saw him start to post regularly, and it'll be a sad day when he gives up in frustration...

...For both rational thought and true religious spirituality cannot compete with ego and pride on a public forum such as this.
Logic is shouted down, and fanaticism hammers spirituality into the ground in this arena. As any good protester knows, loud noises will drown out peace and reason in public - neither rational thinking nor brotherliness is raucous and snarling...

...and so, the more experienced folk wisely tread around this hole, not daring to step into this swirling mess of rabid and fanatical howling...

Fellows like maj. tom, enter the discussion, but are beaten off with snarls of ignorance and blindedness...
"Ignorance"? one might ask... but yes, IGNORANCE, says I. For where else in this universe of rational thought could one hold a discussion, where ideas are shared, yet folk refuse to look back to see if a particular matter was discussed already? If you are sharing it to benefit others, doesn't it make sense to look and see if they benefited from it BEFORE? What drives this sort of ignorance? VANITY... PRIDE... EGO.

This is on the internet. There is something called "a search engine". "Google". If you do not own a set of encyclopaedias, then all you have to do is TYPE YOUR QUESTION... or even just type a key word... but NO!! Not these Fanatics!! It must all be dragged upon the floor, in front of them, the Tuner Sanhedrin of our time, where they can peruse and pronounce judgement in full view of the cowering masses.

No bloody wonder certain tuners refuse to pass through this thread again!



As for me:

When I first started browsing Tuner fairly recently, I used to read Bluefete's "God" thread in amazement (while not the most accurate word, that's the most polite word I can use to describe how I felt), but I never even wished to voice an opinion. This decision was based on my experiences regarding discussions amongst differing faiths. While it sounds like a good idea to compare differences, observe similarities, and generally learn of different ways of looking at the same thing, this never works for religion, unless the persons involved share a strong sense of trust, respect, wisdom and maturity - as well as a very good grasp of language.
Thus it is that whenever average people discuss religion (especially Christianity) it soon turns into either a competition, an evangelistic affair, or a fight - or all three, in that order.
But then someone I know, who is fed up of the nonsense that passes for the fundamentalist view on Tuner, started a 'religiously-themed' thread just to see how foolish these goodly folk could get - and lad, did they ever.
Then I realised that the only view representing those who consider the teachings of the Christ more than just interesting, were a handful of blinded literalists whose only knowledge of scripture was what they were fed.
And here is my conundrum: When I read Bluefete's thread, I was quite certain the spouted nonsense I came across was precisely that - because of what I knew. Suppose I didn't know... then my assumption would be that despite whatever sense Jesus' words might make, his followers are all complete imbeciles. If a drink has a magnificent bouquet, but all who drink it go mad - then bet your last cent I ain't tasting it.
And so I have decided (against the better judgment of most of my peers) to attempt to be the voice of reason - not for the benefit of Bluefete, or Sir Civic, or this Megadoc1... but for the curiously minded who might otherwise shy away from delving into what could result in a better understanding of why we all are here.

Bjorn Ulvaeus (of ABBA) - a true humanist / atheist / agnostic once said that in composing a song, there was a lot of rubbish that had to be weeded out in order to arrive at what would become a very good song.

This thread has indeed brought out very fundamentalist views from ALL sides. It has shown that we can have a religious discussion from differing perspectives.

At then end of it all, only death will show how accurate all these discussions were.

[AdamB]

Prior to death and the rising of the sun from the West, there is still hope and time to change hearts and perform good deeds and to repent from sins and to turn to THE ONE TRUE GOD ASKING HIM TO GUIDE YOU TO SEE TRUTH AS TRUTH AND FALSEHOOD AS FALSEHOOD AND TO SHOW YOU THE PROPHET WHO LED HIS FOLLOWERS AS THE BEST EXAMPLE IN EVERY SPHERE OF LIFE TO THE WAY OF LIFE THAT THE ONE TRUE GOD WANTS YOU TO FOLLOW, THE WAY OF LIFE THAT HE WILL ACCEPT.

[RBphoto]

What sins? How come allyuh people assume atheist doh lead sin free life? Is the get out of jail repentance something I can use once or as needed anytime I feel that the "end is near" ?

[MG Man]

Hey MGMan: That is a fair enough statement. Does its principles guide how you live your life presently? Once your consciousness fades, there is nothing forever after that? Then what is the purpose of this short life of our?

Is there a definitive view of right and wrong?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Hey MGMan: That is a fair enough statement. Does its principles guide how you live your life presently? Once your consciousness fades, there is nothing forever after that? Then what is the purpose of this short life of our?

Is there a definitive view of right and wrong?

animals dont need prinicples on how to live. Some of them kill for food or to protect their own.

what is the purpose of a wild animal's life? Like a polar bear or a narwhal whale.

Or what of tribes in New Guinea or those tribes who have never contacted modern civilizations. They don't follow the guidelines you follow and they've survived as a tribe up til now. They don't go to heaven? Their life has no purpose?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontacted_peoples

It is estimated that on tribe have lived on their island for 60,000 years. They have to make contact with the outside world. They have their own religion, their own guidelines (evidence of satellite photos show that they are hunter-gatherers who do not even grow their own crops) and their own laws. I'm sure they don't go murdering and raping everyone in their tribe. Yet they've never seen a bible, qu'ran, gita, torah etc.
They don't go to heaven? Their life has no purpose?

[MG Man]

Hey MGMan: That is a fair enough statement. Does its principles guide how you live your life presently? Once your consciousness fades, there is nothing forever after that? Then what is the purpose of this short life of our?

Is there a definitive view of right and wrong?

bluey,
what more purpose do I need than to know I am sentient and self aware?
What is the purpose of your existence?
To please some weird egotistic being that feeds off attention? Promise of some eternal prize?
Right and wrong?
Is it / was it wrong for the Aztecs to sacrifice human beings to their gods? Who decides?

[bluefete]

Hey MGMan: That is a fair enough statement. Does its principles guide how you live your life presently? Once your consciousness fades, there is nothing forever after that? Then what is the purpose of this short life of our?

Is there a definitive view of right and wrong?

animals dont need prinicples on how to live. Some of them kill for food or to protect their own.

what is the purpose of a wild animal's life? Like a polar bear or a narwhal whale.

Or what of tribes in New Guinea or those tribes who have never contacted modern civilizations. They don't follow the guidelines you follow and they've survived as a tribe up til now. They don't go to heaven? Their life has no purpose?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontacted_peoples

It is estimated that on tribe have lived on their island for 60,000 years. They have to make contact with the outside world. They have their own religion, their own guidelines (evidence of satellite photos show that they are hunter-gatherers who do not even grow their own crops) and their own laws. I'm sure they don't go murdering and raping everyone in their tribe. Yet they've never seen a bible, qu'ran, gita, torah etc.
They don't go to heaven? Their life has no purpose?

Like all the rest, they too will find out when they die. It matters not that they have/have not seen a Bible, Gita etc. The end result is the same for all who pass through this here planet earth

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Hey MGMan: That is a fair enough statement. Does its principles guide how you live your life presently? Once your consciousness fades, there is nothing forever after that? Then what is the purpose of this short life of our?

Is there a definitive view of right and wrong?

animals dont need prinicples on how to live. Some of them kill for food or to protect their own.

what is the purpose of a wild animal's life? Like a polar bear or a narwhal whale.

Or what of tribes in New Guinea or those tribes who have never contacted modern civilizations. They don't follow the guidelines you follow and they've survived as a tribe up til now. They don't go to heaven? Their life has no purpose?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontacted_peoples

It is estimated that on tribe have lived on their island for 60,000 years. They have to make contact with the outside world. They have their own religion, their own guidelines (evidence of satellite photos show that they are hunter-gatherers who do not even grow their own crops) and their own laws. I'm sure they don't go murdering and raping everyone in their tribe. Yet they've never seen a bible, qu'ran, gita, torah etc.
They don't go to heaven? Their life has no purpose?

Like all the rest, they too will find out when they die. It matters not that they have/have not seen a Bible, Gita etc. The end result is the same for all who pass through this here planet earth

your answer there is very different from the bible thumping, earth is 6000 years old, Darwin is a mad man rants from earlier in this thread.

what do you think they will find out?

[AdamB]

Hey MGMan: That is a fair enough statement. Does its principles guide how you live your life presently? Once your consciousness fades, there is nothing forever after that? Then what is the purpose of this short life of our?

Is there a definitive view of right and wrong?

animals dont need prinicples on how to live. Some of them kill for food or to protect their own.

what is the purpose of a wild animal's life? Like a polar bear or a narwhal whale.

Or what of tribes in New Guinea or those tribes who have never contacted modern civilizations. They don't follow the guidelines you follow and they've survived as a tribe up til now. They don't go to heaven? Their life has no purpose?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontacted_peoples

It is estimated that on tribe have lived on their island for 60,000 years. They have to make contact with the outside world. They have their own religion, their own guidelines (evidence of satellite photos show that they are hunter-gatherers who do not even grow their own crops) and their own laws. I'm sure they don't go murdering and raping everyone in their tribe. Yet they've never seen a bible, qu'ran, gita, torah etc.
They don't go to heaven? Their life has no purpose?

Like all the rest, they too will find out when they die. It matters not that they have/have not seen a Bible, Gita etc. The end result is the same for all who pass through this here planet earth

your answer there is very different from the bible thumping, earth is 6000 years old, Darwin is a mad man rants from earlier in this thread.

what do you think they will find out?

The Islamic view on this is that prophets were sent to all peoples of all times calling them to the worship of THE ONE TRUE GOD.

So they will be judged based on what they were called to, whether they obeyed or disobeyed.

Also, there may be a possibility that the message may not have reached them and others in society where religions exist. The view on this is that on the day of Judgment they will be tested / questioned by GOD and based on their response, then they will be admitted to Paradise or thrown into the fire of Hell (we ask Allah for the former and seek His protection from the latter).

One of the tests would be that GOD will command them to enter the Fire, those who refuse will be sent to Hell and those who obey when they enter the fire will be made cool for them. Thereafter they will be admitted to Paradise.

This information is from the recorded and documented hadith (sayings) of our prophet.

[Dizzy28]

The ONE TRUE GOD.....in all his wisdom made only approx. 25% of the world his adherents then judges the other 75% as well? Guess God does not think strategically.

[AdamB]

Ignorance is bliss!!

Everyone will be judged, don't be fooled by numbers. There is a hadith that in general, 999 out of every 1000 will be sent to the fire. (99 out of every 100 in another one).

Many muslims don't do as they are supposed to and Allah know best their position when they meet Him. Good deeds will be weighed against bad deeds.

What does your religion say?

[Dizzy28]

My religion and my beliefs are two separate things. My belief is that if you live life on earth, be good, do good, pray to any God that you want with sincerity you basically good to go.

In essence unlike a few of the other regular posters in here I am not Atheist, however I believe there is one God, but he/she does not care whether we call him/her Ram, Allah, Buddha, Christ, Flying Sphagetti Monster etc.

I believe God gave us so many religions to see how well we would live with one another but we failed him because there are zealots of all forms and fashion who claim their way is the only way.

[AdamB]

What sins? How come allyuh people assume atheist doh lead sin free life? Is the get out of jail repentance something I can use once or as needed anytime I feel that the "end is near" ?

Allah is all able to see sincerity of the hearts.(Atheists included).

BTW how the fasting and taraweeh going at Highway mosque?

[MG Man]

The Islamic view on this is that prophets were sent to all peoples of all times calling them to the worship of THE ONE TRUE GOD. .

is there a list of these prophets, and their times and locations?
reason I am asking, how is one to know which prophet is the real deal...

[Dizzy28]

The Islamic view on this is that prophets were sent to all peoples of all times calling them to the worship of THE ONE TRUE GOD. .

is there a list of these prophets, and their times and locations?
reason I am asking, how is one to know which prophet is the real deal...

MG,

The prophet for our time and place.................

[AdamB]

My religion and my beliefs are two separate things. My belief is that if you live life on earth, be good, do good, pray to any God that you want with sincerity you basically good to go.

In essence unlike a few of the other regular posters in here I am not Atheist, however I believe there is one God, but he/she does not care whether we call him/her Ram, Allah, Buddha, Christ, Flying Sphagetti Monster etc.

I believe God gave us so many religions to see how well we would live with one another but we failed him because there are zealots of all forms and fashion who claim their way is the only way.

Does your belief have any basis? Your religion would document what GOD wants and WHAT HE CARES ABOUT.
How do you KNOW GOD will accept all religions if they would have strayed from HIS GUIDANCE?

If you reject the revelations of GOD to man intended to provide GUIDANCE, are you going to open your own church and write your own scriptures?