The Religion Discussion

[Daran]

AdamB,

Stop rambling and wall of text posts that no one will read.

Answer me this though, if you can. Islam proclaims to be a religion of peace right? Yet the Koran is filled with verbiage condoning violence against infidels (non believers). What is peaceful about that?

Why are almost all Islamic states are riddled with violence, oppression, lack of freedom, lack of democracy and lack of common sense?

Islamic terrorists have killed tens of thousands over the last few decades in the name of Allah. Those killed are usually always innocent and just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. How is this justified? And why do most Muslims secretly support terrorist acts?

Typically I hate most religions, but Islam just seems to be a new low....lacking common moral systems and encouraging violence and segregation.

I firmly believe that Islam is EVIL and needs to be eradicated or at least evolved significantly if humanity has to prosper and survive.

Please try to change my mind.

[MG Man]

Islam is what christianity was back in its early days...........not surprising since that was the model it used.........anyways, christianity has for the most part learned the art of subtlety and is more user friendly..........whether these guys learn that will be left to be seen.....

[Daran]

so what kind of virgins await those guys who blow themselves up in the name of islam?
is it girls, boys, camels? can you choose? And where do those virgins come from?
Not the best reward imo....virgins aren't always fun.........can you opt for a custom made model biologically engineered without the virginal issues, and also with a somewhat slutty and creative mind?

LOL at muslims who believe this.

Suppose I die while I'm still married and end up in this heaven. Is Allah encouraging me to horn meh wife with these 72 virgins?

[Daran]

Islam is what christianity was back in its early days...........not surprising since that was the model it used.........anyways, christianity has for the most part learned the art of subtlety and is more user friendly..........whether these guys learn that will be left to be seen.....

True to an extent.

However, there are stark differences that make Islam much more dangerous. Jesus from all accounts, was quiet a good person. Mohammed clearly was not. He was a pedophile and a murderer.

Secondly, there are much more expressions of violence against non believers in the Koran.

Thirdly, Islam is a much more strict religion which many try to follow to a T. This literal interpretation of it is what makes it dangerous.

[MG Man]

I'll stick to John Lennon's way.........little bit of rock n roll, little bit of acid

[Dizzy28]

^ Or become a Hindu like Harrison

[sMASH]

islam is the way to live. not just morals, but rules and punishments. but, it is the religion of peace, so this must be the first or overriding side to fall too in all circumstances. places where there violence is recommended must be the last resort. even if the punishment is violent in nature or even death, if the issue of that ultimate punishment is to be determined by the victim of the perpetrator, we are guided when we are told that a person who save a life is as if they have saved the whole of mankind or the one who takes it is as if they have killed all of mankind.

but, many of the acts of violence i have encountered when dealing about specific groups of people are not meant on a one on one scenario. they are in fact meant as end time prophecies and have special conditions. most of the views of sheik imran hosein i believe to be accurate.
if approached with the mind frame that islam is for peace, and the violent actions are not to be settled on immediately, then many things are more than what they obviously seem to be.

but there is, no doubt, the matter of crime and punishment stated.

either u believe it is truth and follow it, or believe it is false and do not be a muslim.

[MG Man]

but there is, no doubt, the matter of crime and punishment stated.

either u believe it is truth and follow it, or believe it is false and do not be a muslim.

That's cool and all, but when your religion tells you it is your duty to go out and spread the word / convert non-believers etc, then I have issue with it

[AdamB]

but there is, no doubt, the matter of crime and punishment stated.

either u believe it is truth and follow it, or believe it is false and do not be a muslim.

That's cool and all, but when your religion tells you it is your duty to go out and spread the word / convert non-believers etc, then I have issue with it

Sorry but we don't try to convert like Christianity did in the past. It is the duty of the muslim to invite. It is your CHOICE to accept or reject.

That way the muslim fulfills what is compulsory on him and on the day of judgment you will have no excuse to say that the message did not reach you (Daran included).

BTW Daran if you study the history of Islam during the lifetime of the prophet, there were non-muslims who hated muslims more than you, who would have actually fought against them, not with email / text but with swords. And who, even after that, accepted Islam. So we have have heard bigger Roosters crow, dear Daran.

[Daran]

"This Book is not to be doubted.... As for the unbelievers, it is the same whether or not you forewarn them; they will not have faith. God has set a seal upon their hearts and ears; their sight is dimmed and grievous punishment awaits them." Quran 2:1/2:6-2:10

"God's curse be upon the infidels! Evil is that for which they have bartered away their souls. To deny God's own revelation, grudging that He should reveal His bounty to whom He chooses from among His servants! They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits the unbelievers." Quran 2:89-2:90

"Lord...Give us victory over the unbelievers." Quran 2:286

"Lord...give us victory over the unbelievers." Quran 3:148

"I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers." Quran 8:12

"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them." Quran 9:5

"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." Quran 9:73

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous." Quran 9:123

"Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another..." Quran 5:51

"He that chooses a religion over Islam, it will not be accepted from him and in the world to come he will be one of the lost." Quran 3:85

"Let not believers make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful - he that does this has nothing to hope for from Good - except in self-defense. God admonishes you to fear Him: for to God shall all return." Quran 3:28

"Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed with rods of iron.

"Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'" Quran 22:19-20

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." Quran 48:29

"Those that deny Our revelations We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise." Quran 4:56

"Let not the unbelievers think that they will ever get away. They have not the power to do so. Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of God and your enemy..." Quran 8:59-60

"Believers, know that the idolaters [non-Muslims] are unclean. Let them not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year is ended." Quran 9:28

"The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Bible] and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures." Quran 98:6

AdamB please explain how these quotes from the Koran give rise to a peaceful existence?

[AdamB]

Islam is what christianity was back in its early days...........not surprising since that was the model it used.........anyways, christianity has for the most part learned the art of subtlety and is more user friendly..........whether these guys learn that will be left to be seen.....

True to an extent.

However, there are stark differences that make Islam much more dangerous. Jesus from all accounts, was quiet a good person. Even a disbeliever knows that Jesus was a person (human) NOT A GOD!!![/color]
Secondly, there are much more [color=#FF0000]expressions of violence against non believers in the Koran.

Thirdly, Islam is a much more strict religion which many try to follow to a T. This literal interpretation of it is what makes it dangerous.

What we have heard about what our Muslim brothers are going through in kaafir countries in the north and the south, where they are being harassed and persecuted for something in which they did not take part and in which they played no role, is not strange, given the wrongdoing and hatred of the kuffaar, even though they claim to be the people of justice, fairness and freedom. What is the crime of a Muslim woman who walks down the street in her hijaab? What is the crime of a Muslim who leaves his home to go and pray, not to spread mischief in the land? What is the crime of a Muslim employee who goes to his company or a student who goes to his university or a schoolgirl who is walking to her school, not going out to bomb and destroy? If the western man in the street was fair-minded – at least with himself – he would go and take revenge on the people who plotted and took part in harming him. But one who does not fear God could do anything, and the very least that the Muslims will be faced with is curses and insults. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“and you shall certainly hear much that will grieve you from those who received the Scripture before you (Jews and Christians) and from those who ascribe partners to Allaah; but if you persevere patiently, and become Al-Muttaqoon (the pious) then verily, that will be a determining factor in all affairs”[Aal ‘Imraan 3:186]

Our attitude must be clear; we must explain to the kuffaar the ruling of Islamic sharee’ah concerning harming and killing others. We should tell them that [b]Islam forbids harming innocent people in any way, whether that involves harming their bodies, their wealth or their honour. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There should be neither harming nor reciprocating harm.” It is not permissible to kill a kaafir who is not hostile or who has a legitimate peace treaty with the Muslims; rather treating a non-hostile kaafir with kindness is part of the Islamic religion, especially if that is done to call him to Islam and soften his heart (towards Islam). Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allaah loves those who deal with equity”[al-Mumtahinah 60:8]

At times of war against the kuffaar, it is not permissible for a Muslim to deliberately kill a kaafir child or woman who is not bearing arms against the Muslims or helping in the fight. It was narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to the Muslim army: “Go out in the name of Allaah and by the help of Allaah, following the way of the Messenger of Allaah. Do not kill any old man, infant, child or woman… spread goodness and do good, for Allaah loves those who do good.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2614[/b]; its isnaad includes Khaalid ibn al-Faraz, of whom Ibn Hajar said in al-Taqreeb, he is maqbool (acceptable) i.e., if there are corroborating reports)

This is supported by the advice which Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq (may Allaah be pleased with him) gave to the commander of his army: “I advise you of ten things: do not kill a woman, or a child, or any old person, or cut down any fruit trees…” (al-Muwatta’, 982, Kitaab al-Jihaad).

The kaafirs whom the Muslims fight and inflict harm and loss upon are the kaafirs who fight the Muslims and drive them out of their homes, or help to drive them out of their homes and punish and mistreat them, and who stand in the way of calling people to Islam and prevent people from following the path of Allaah, and prevent the spread of Islam. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allaah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zaalimoon (wrongdoers those who disobey Allaah).”[al-Mumtahinah 60:9]

Such people are to be fought against when [the Muslims] have the power to do so, and when fighting them and declaring jihad against them is more likely to serve a purpose. But when you can achieve your purpose with gentleness and kindness, it is not right to resort to violence and force. Muslims should only use force when they are compelled to, and as a last resort. They should not initiate fighting, unless there is some cause on the part of the kaafirs, such as their fighting the Muslims, or helping other enemies of the Muslims, or preventing them from following the path of Allaah and establishing the law of Allaah in the land.

We should also remind these kaafirs of the massacres which have been carried out and are still being carried out against Muslims in all parts of the world, in Bosnia, Kosova, Chechnya, Palestine and Kashmir, which are being supported by Jews, Christians and others. Is the blood of the Muslims cheaper than the blood of others? Should there be mourners for non-Muslims who are killed and not for Muslims who are killed?
Moreover, when the Orthodox Christians carried out massacres in Bosnia and Kosova, in which the numbers of those killed exceeded 200,000, apart from those who were wounded or raped, and the economic losses that resulted, did the Muslims in the Arab and Islamic countries launch attacks against the Orthodox Christians who live in their countries, or kill any of them, or open fire against their churches and subject them to terror?! What does this tell you?

It is very important for Muslims to explain these things to non-Muslims, in order to establish proof against the kuffaar. This is something that Allaah wants. Secondly, among the kuffaar there are intelligent and fair-minded people, and people who are receptive to the guidance of Islam; perhaps they will be affected by a clear explanation. Thirdly, no Muslim should permit himself to be accused without explaining his innocence. The distorted image of Muslims is one of the things that is keeping the kaafirs away from the truth and being affected by the Muslims; indeed it may make them treat the Muslims like outcasts, resulting in additional wrongdoing towards the Muslims.

[AdamB]

"This Book is not to be doubted.... As for the unbelievers, it is the same whether or not you forewarn them; they will not have faith. God has set a seal upon their hearts and ears; their sight is dimmed and grievous punishment awaits them." Quran 2:1/2:6-2:10

"God's curse be upon the infidels! Evil is that for which they have bartered away their souls. To deny God's own revelation, grudging that He should reveal His bounty to whom He chooses from among His servants! They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits the unbelievers." Quran 2:89-2:90

"Lord...Give us victory over the unbelievers." Quran 2:286

"Lord...give us victory over the unbelievers." Quran 3:148

"I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers." Quran 8:12

"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them." Quran 9:5

"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." Quran 9:73

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous." Quran 9:123

"Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another..." Quran 5:51

"He that chooses a religion over Islam, it will not be accepted from him and in the world to come he will be one of the lost." Quran 3:85

"Let not believers make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful - he that does this has nothing to hope for from Good - except in self-defense. God admonishes you to fear Him: for to God shall all return." Quran 3:28

"Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed with rods of iron.

"Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'" Quran 22:19-20

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." Quran 48:29

"Those that deny Our revelations We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise." Quran 4:56

"Let not the unbelievers think that they will ever get away. They have not the power to do so. Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of God and your enemy..." Quran 8:59-60

"Believers, know that the idolaters [non-Muslims] are unclean. Let them not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year is ended." Quran 9:28

"The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Bible] and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures." Quran 98:6

AdamB please explain how these quotes from the Koran give rise to a peaceful existence?

Daran,
I am not a scholar, not a "muffassir", not one who explains the Quran.

[sMASH]

well, i am also not any expert, but if u don't believe then that would not matter, if u do, then u have motivation to continue increasing in your iman.
oh you who believe...

as for the life after death, i cannot say what exactly it is, if there is any. i can say that i believe it to be as islam teaches. u don't have to believe me, u are free to think what ever u want, just don't judge others by what u think, judge them by what they think, if u have to.

[Dizzy28]

My skills in Cutting and Pasting not as good as AdamB but you mention massacres against Muslims. How convenient to forget the pogroms against Jews by Muslims thoughout the Levant in the days of the British and French Mandates of Palestine or The millions killed by the Moghuls in their conquest and attempt at Islamifying India.
The conversions of other religion's holy sites into Muslim mosques as a sign of dominance e.g. Ayodhya Temple into the Babri Mosque, Temple Mount into the Al Aqsa Mosque etc.

You wonder why your Religion is non well accepted.

[Daran]

AdamB using the justification of "others did it first" is childish at best.

Whether you admit or not, Islam is a dangerous religion and unless something is done to curb it or educate its followers, I have no other choice but to openly condemn it. Btw just so you know, I am not singling out Islam alone. I think Evangelicalism is just as backward, but at least it's not as dangerous.

Also, you may be surprised to know that some of my closest friends are Muslim and many of them experience inner conflict with Islam. Whether it be the prophet's not so righteous lifestyle, the conflicting views of so called Islamic leaders who call for violence, the condemning of homosexuality etc.

Many of them wish Islam would grow up and not be interpreted literally. And if that were the case, I'd no longer chastise this religion and let bygones be bygones.

[sMASH]

i agree that many of the things are not to be interpreted literally. and i agree that many of the actions by muslims are in grave error.

[X2]

but there is, no doubt, the matter of crime and punishment stated.

either u believe it is truth and follow it, or believe it is false and do not be a muslim.

That's cool and all, but when your religion tells you it is your duty to go out and spread the word / convert non-believers etc, then I have issue with it

^ Funny that right below this, there was an ad for Jehovah's witness dating...lol

[AdamB]

GOD has made our religion what it is!! And we love it and we love HIM!!

Are you changing the term "right guidance" to "interpret literally"? Islam has already been perfected and is not in need of being corrected or moderated or the like.

Those who lack knowledge will have "inner conflicts", especially if they want to follow their (evil) desires.

I don't know of any Islamic leaders who are calling for violence. Please tell me who they are. There are those who deviate beyond the limits but they are not on the middle, right path. Don't take the exception for the rule.

I am a very peaceful individual, believe it or not.

[AdamB]

My skills in Cutting and Pasting not as good as AdamB but you mention massacres against Muslims. How convenient to forget the pogroms against Jews by Muslims thoughout the Levant in the days of the British and French Mandates of Palestine or The millions killed by the Moghuls in their conquest and attempt at Islamifying India.
The conversions of other religion's holy sites into Muslim mosques as a sign of dominance e.g. Ayodhya Temple into the Babri Mosque, Temple Mount into the Al Aqsa Mosque etc.

You wonder why your Religion is non well accepted.

We find comfort in knowing that the true believers in GOD will always be persecuted (generally), wherever they may be.

We know also, that we will have our just reward, not in this life but in the next one, the true life, the only life worth living!!

[X2]

AdamB... wtf you talking about meng ?

The Quran clearly states violence against non-believers... but maybe you can choose which parts you want to follow.

And NO, you don't KNOW you are recieving a reward in the 'next life'... you need to have faith that there is something more. If you KNEW, then it wouldn't be much of a religion... it would be called a FACT.

[Daran]

AdamB you and many other foolish Muslims are simply picking and choosing what to believe.

One of my good friends is a lesbian....she has no attraction to men, never molested, never was influenced to be this way.

She is a devout Muslim and seeked refuge in Islam during her teenage years where she faced a lot of pressure to feel straight.

However, she was not and now faces being estranged from her Mosque for being this way. The Imam told her she will face the wrath of Allah if she does not change her ways.

She is just one. Another Muslim friend is absolutely disgusted by Muslim fundamentalist and Islamic scholars who preach hate and divisiveness.

AdamB, Do you believe in Sharia law?

[sMASH]

the thing about it is, islam teaches that the males are males, females are females. based on your biology u have a specific criteria to operate in. if she wants the girl on girl action, is either she believe she is right and believe that the doctrines of islam is wrong, or believe that the doctrines of islam are correct, and believe that the ACTIONS that she would take are wrong.

if she wants to put same sex stuff in islam she is introducing things into it which are not there, and so doing her own thing, which is wrong.

but her situation is not the only instance of people doing what they want and calling it islam, so to focus on her actions when so many others do the same general thing is unfair.

i am not in her shoes, so i cannot relate to her situation.

i am like that, in that i real into music. i mean i see sounds as colors sumtimes. i like music. but i not going to tell any one that what i do is islam, i would say that i have a compulsion and it is against the teachings. is not the music per say, but the type of lyrics, and the distraction away from the practise of the religion and the time it occupies when i could be doing something more worth while.

i not equating the two situations, but i just showing that every body is guilty of wrong doing, even against their own codes of conduct. and i not going to judge her... until i am made a judge and we are in an islamic state

[AdamB]

AdamB you and many other foolish Muslims are simply picking and choosing what to believe.

One of my good friends is a lesbian....she has no attraction to men, never molested, never was influenced to be this way.

She is a devout Muslim and seeked refuge in Islam during her teenage years where she faced a lot of pressure to feel straight.

However, she was not and now faces being estranged from her Mosque for being this way. The Imam told her she will face the wrath of Allah if she does not change her ways.

She is just one. Another Muslim friend is absolutely disgusted by Muslim fundamentalist and Islamic scholars who preach hate and divisiveness.

AdamB, Do you believe in Sharia law?

Pal,
From your statements, you are possibly equal or more fundamentalist in your disbelief that I am in my belief!! Let's keep this as a discussion. I am no beast and I'm sure you're not as well. So let's respect each other.
The natural inclination is for a man to be attracted to a woman, and for a woman to be attracted to a man. As for a person being attracted to another member of his or her own sex, this is contrary to the sound human nature that Allaah has instilled in people, and it does not exist even among animals. In addition to being contrary to sound human nature, it is at a lower level than that of animals.

Islam has refined this natural inclination and has set out limits for it, namely marriage. The one who does not agree with these shar’i limits would choose the immoral action of zina. As for deviant relationships in which a girl is attracted to another girl or a man to another man, this is a perversion and a deviation from correct, sound human nature. These sinful relationships lead to something that is even more abhorrent than zina, namely homosexuality between males, and improper relationships between women lead to lesbianism, which is another kind of deviance.

Sinful relationships between members of both sexes begin with what is called admiration or infatuation. This is a serious disease which is widespread in all societies as the result of a spiritual vacuum and lack of knowledge and as the result of imitating non-nuslim societies which have gone against human nature. This infatuation leads to love, in which the girl cannot bear not to see the one whom she loves; if she is not able to do that, then she will listen to her voice or look at a picture of her. Then that sinful relationship leads to lesbianism, which is haraam. These deviant women do not see in a man what they see in the woman they admire of fulfilling desire and filling the heart with love. You can say the same thing about sinful relationships between males. The love between them leads to infatuation in the heart, as if there were no one else in the world but him, and if the beloved were to ask his lover to prostrate to him, he would do it! We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. This sinful relationship ultimately leads to the abhorrent immoral action of homosexuality, and among those perverts you see no attraction towards a woman, even if she were the most beautiful of women.

I ask you to tell me, what is the existing rates or percentages of homosexual relationships in non-muslim countries as opposed to "muslim" countries. Maybe we can compare Scandinavia to the Middle east. I await your stats.

[Daran]

AdamB you and many other foolish Muslims are simply picking and choosing what to believe.

One of my good friends is a lesbian....she has no attraction to men, never molested, never was influenced to be this way.

She is a devout Muslim and seeked refuge in Islam during her teenage years where she faced a lot of pressure to feel straight.

However, she was not and now faces being estranged from her Mosque for being this way. The Imam told her she will face the wrath of Allah if she does not change her ways.

She is just one. Another Muslim friend is absolutely disgusted by Muslim fundamentalist and Islamic scholars who preach hate and divisiveness.

AdamB, Do you believe in Sharia law?

Pal,
From your statements, you are possibly equal or more fundamentalist in your disbelief that I am in my belief!! Let's keep this as a discussion. I am no beast and I'm sure you're not as well. So let's respect each other.
The natural inclination is for a man to be attracted to a woman, and for a woman to be attracted to a man. As for a person being attracted to another member of his or her own sex, this is contrary to the sound human nature that Allaah has instilled in people, and it does not exist even among animals. In addition to being contrary to sound human nature, it is at a lower level than that of animals.

Islam has refined this natural inclination and has set out limits for it, namely marriage. The one who does not agree with these shar’i limits would choose the immoral action of zina. As for deviant relationships in which a girl is attracted to another girl or a man to another man, this is a perversion and a deviation from correct, sound human nature. These sinful relationships lead to something that is even more abhorrent than zina, namely homosexuality between males, and improper relationships between women lead to lesbianism, which is another kind of deviance.

Sinful relationships between members of both sexes begin with what is called admiration or infatuation. This is a serious disease which is widespread in all societies as the result of a spiritual vacuum and lack of knowledge and as the result of imitating non-nuslim societies which have gone against human nature. This infatuation leads to love, in which the girl cannot bear not to see the one whom she loves; if she is not able to do that, then she will listen to her voice or look at a picture of her. Then that sinful relationship leads to lesbianism, which is haraam. These deviant women do not see in a man what they see in the woman they admire of fulfilling desire and filling the heart with love. You can say the same thing about sinful relationships between males. The love between them leads to infatuation in the heart, as if there were no one else in the world but him, and if the beloved were to ask his lover to prostrate to him, he would do it! We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. This sinful relationship ultimately leads to the abhorrent immoral action of homosexuality, and among those perverts you see no attraction towards a woman, even if she were the most beautiful of women.

I ask you to tell me, what is the existing rates or percentages of homosexual relationships in non-muslim countries as opposed to "muslim" countries. Maybe we can compare Scandinavia to the Middle east. I await your stats.

AdamB,

Firstly, you're wrong about homosexuality not existing in animals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

Secondly, has it ever occurred to you that these people are born with no sexual attraction to the opposite sex? Why would Allah make people this way?

Thirdly, you must really be daft to compare homosexuality stats in muslim countries vs western countries.

You think any gay person is going to openly admit to being gay in those countries? Self preservation man.

Even in the western world where they don't face death, so many people stay in the closet for fear of coming out.

[AdamB]

AdamB you and many other foolish Muslims are simply picking and choosing what to believe.

One of my good friends is a lesbian....she has no attraction to men, never molested, never was influenced to be this way.

She is a devout Muslim and seeked refuge in Islam during her teenage years where she faced a lot of pressure to feel straight.

However, she was not and now faces being estranged from her Mosque for being this way. The Imam told her she will face the wrath of Allah if she does not change her ways.

She is just one. Another Muslim friend is absolutely disgusted by Muslim fundamentalist and Islamic scholars who preach hate and divisiveness.

AdamB, Do you believe in Sharia law?

Pal,
From your statements, you are possibly equal or more fundamentalist in your disbelief that I am in my belief!! Let's keep this as a discussion. I am no beast and I'm sure you're not as well. So let's respect each other.
The natural inclination is for a man to be attracted to a woman, and for a woman to be attracted to a man. As for a person being attracted to another member of his or her own sex, this is contrary to the sound human nature that Allaah has instilled in people, and it does not exist even among animals. In addition to being contrary to sound human nature, it is at a lower level than that of animals.

Islam has refined this natural inclination and has set out limits for it, namely marriage. The one who does not agree with these shar’i limits would choose the immoral action of zina. As for deviant relationships in which a girl is attracted to another girl or a man to another man, this is a perversion and a deviation from correct, sound human nature. These sinful relationships lead to something that is even more abhorrent than zina, namely homosexuality between males, and improper relationships between women lead to lesbianism, which is another kind of deviance.

Sinful relationships between members of both sexes begin with what is called admiration or infatuation. This is a serious disease which is widespread in all societies as the result of a spiritual vacuum and lack of knowledge and as the result of imitating non-nuslim societies which have gone against human nature. This infatuation leads to love, in which the girl cannot bear not to see the one whom she loves; if she is not able to do that, then she will listen to her voice or look at a picture of her. Then that sinful relationship leads to lesbianism, which is haraam. These deviant women do not see in a man what they see in the woman they admire of fulfilling desire and filling the heart with love. You can say the same thing about sinful relationships between males. The love between them leads to infatuation in the heart, as if there were no one else in the world but him, and if the beloved were to ask his lover to prostrate to him, he would do it! We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. This sinful relationship ultimately leads to the abhorrent immoral action of homosexuality, and among those perverts you see no attraction towards a woman, even if she were the most beautiful of women.

I ask you to tell me, what is the existing rates or percentages of homosexual relationships in non-muslim countries as opposed to "muslim" countries. Maybe we can compare Scandinavia to the Middle east. I await your stats.

AdamB,

Firstly, you're wrong about homosexuality not existing in animals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

Secondly, has it ever occurred to you that these people are born with no sexual attraction to the opposite sex? Why would Allah make people this way?

Thirdly, you must really be daft to compare homosexuality stats in muslim countries vs western countries.

You think any gay person is going to openly admit to being gay in those countries? Self preservation man.

Even in the western world where they don't face death, so many people stay in the closet for fear of coming out.

Like you ain't read the article:
Homosexual behavior in animals refers to the documented evidence of homosexual and bisexual behavior in various (non-human) species.

The motivations for and implications of these behaviors have yet to be fully understood, since most species have yet to be fully studied.

"Although homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world, it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity."

The observation of homosexual behavior in animals can be seen as both an argument for and against the acceptance of homosexuality in humans.

[AdamB]

Advice for your friend:
The scholars of the Standing Committee were asked:

What is the ruling on lesbianism and masturbation?

They replied:

Lesbianism among women is haraam, and is a major sin, because it is an action that is contrary to the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts)

6. Except from their wives or (the slaves) that their right hands possess, __ for then, they are free from blame;

7. But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are the transgressors” [al-Mu’minoon 23:5-7]

Similarly masturbation is haraam, because of these same verses, and because it causes a great deal of harm.

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz, Shaykh ‘Abd al-Razzaaq ‘Afeefi, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ghadyaan, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Qa’ood. Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (22/68).

Secondly:

The person who realizes that there is someone close to him who admires him or is infatuated with him should hasten to deal with the matter wisely. Wisdom does not mean being heedless with regard to looking, visiting and touching, because these are things that may make his sickness worse, and make the pain worse. Rather wisdom means offering a suitable remedy in a suitable manner, which includes the following:

1. Strengthening his faith, by encouraging him to do acts of worship and avoid evil deeds.

2. Instilling the love of Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in his heart.

3. Teaching him the meaning of love for the sake of Allaah, the basis of which is that the person who is loved for the sake of Allaah is loved for his faith and acts of obedience, not for his appearance, image or status.

4. Not giving him the opportunity to make contact repeatedly or to visit frequently; explaining to him that if a legitimate relationship transgresses the limits it becomes haraam and must be stopped.

5. When meeting, not allowing him to look continuously, embrace or kiss.

6. Giving him academic or da’wah-related tasks to do, such as collecting evidence on a certain issue, or summarizing a book, or listening to tapes, or doing da’wah-related activities such as calling people to Islam, distributing pamphlets and tapes, and other things which will fill his time with beneficial acts of worship and permissible activities.

Secondly:

If a Muslim feels that he is attracted to someone and fears that this may be one of the tricks of the shaytaan, then he should hasten to rid himself of it, and to treat himself, before it develops further and becomes haraam love . If he wants to rid himself of that, he should do several things, including the following:

1. He should focus his heart on his Lord, for He is the Bestower of blessings and bounty Who has granted him immense blessings, so he should direct the love of his heart towards his Creator.

2. He should cut off ties with everyone who he feels he is developing an (inappropriate) attachment towards, so he should not continue to listen to his voice or look at his image; he should try to avoid meeting him, even if the focus of his love is a teacher, educator or relative. This is the best remedy that he can give himself.

3. He should continually read about the lives of righteous people, scholars and mujaahideen, so that he can learn from those who offered their time and their lives in the service of Islam and the Muslims whilst he is preoccupied with looking at the image of his beloved or enjoying listening to his voice, or reading his words. These are things that are it is not befitting for a Muslim to do even once, so how about if this is his whole life?!

4. He should also ponder the grave and serious effects of these two destructive diseases, namely haraam infatuation and love. The harm that they cause includes the following:

(i) Diverting a person from his Lord and Creator to focus on a weak creature who may harm him but cannot benefit him

(ii) Creating worry, anxiety, grief, confusion and depression in this world, and torment in the Hereafter

(iii) Imagining kinds of haraam actions with the object of his love and infatuation, such as looking, touching and kissing with desire. That may even lead a woman to lesbianism and a man to homosexuality to bring these images out of the realm of imagination and into the realm of reality.

(iv) Contamination of sound human nature (fitnah) with a weakening of natural sexual desire, which will lead to spoiling of a woman’s relationship with her husband and her desire for the haraam things that she has become used to; similar effects may also apply to men.

Fourthly:

Relationships between Muslims should be based on sharee’ah and taqwa (piety). The one who comes together with another person on the basis of sin in this world will find their relationship turned into one of enmity on the Day of Resurrection.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Friends on that Day will be foes one to another except Al‑Muttaqoon (the pious)” [al-Zukhruf 43:67]

Imam Ibn Jareer al-Tabari (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Allaah says: Those who were friends on the basis of disobedience towards Allaah in this world will be enemies of one another, disavowing one another, except for those who were friends on the basis of fearing and obeying Allaah. Tafseer al-Tabari (21/637).

Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

i.e., every friendship that was not for the sake of Allaah, on the Day of Resurrection will be turned into enmity, except that which was for the sake of Allaah, for that will last because it is connected to the One Who is eternal. Tafseer Ibn Katheer (7/237).

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

If friendship and love are based on something other than the best interests of both parties, then the consequences will be enmity. It can only be in their best interests if it is for the sake of Allaah.

Even though each one of them may be helping the other to achieve what he wants on the basis of mutual consent, this mutual consent counts for nothing, rather it will become mutual hatred, enmity and curses, and each of them will say to the other: Were it not for you I would not have done that on my own, so my doom is because of me and you.

And the Lord will not prevent them from hating and cursing one another, but if one of them wronged the other, he will be prevented from doing that, and each of them will say to the other: It was for your own purposes that you caused me to fall into this; like two who committed zina will say to one another: It was for your own purposes that you did this with me; if you had refrained I would not have been involved in it. But each of them damaged the other equally. Majmoo’ al-Fataawa(15/129)

The gate of repentance is open to everyone who wants to seek His Countenance, and the blessings of faith and obedience are available to everyone who wants to join His friends. Allaah forgives sins and accepts repentance, and He turns bad deeds into good. He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Except those who repent and believe (in Islamic Monotheism), and do righteous deeds; for those, Allaah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allaah is Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Furqaan 25:70]

“And verily, I am indeed forgiving to him who repents, believes (in My Oneness, and associates none in worship with Me) and does righteous good deeds, and then remains constant in doing them (till his death)” [Ta-Ha 20:82]

[Dizzy28]

My skills in Cutting and Pasting not as good as AdamB but you mention massacres against Muslims. How convenient to forget the pogroms against Jews by Muslims thoughout the Levant in the days of the British and French Mandates of Palestine or The millions killed by the Moghuls in their conquest and attempt at Islamifying India.
The conversions of other religion's holy sites into Muslim mosques as a sign of dominance e.g. Ayodhya Temple into the Babri Mosque, Temple Mount into the Al Aqsa Mosque etc.

You wonder why your Religion is non well accepted.

We find comfort in knowing that the true believers in GOD will always be persecuted (generally), wherever they may be.

We know also, that we will have our just reward, not in this life but in the next one, the true life, the only life worth living!!

You didn't respond to the comment though. You act as if Islam is the victim when in many instances they are perpetrators.
But I heard and maybe you can correct me...the lands conquered by Muslims belong to them afterwards. Hence when Jerusalem was conquered the Temple Mount became a mosque.

Poetic Justice that the Jews control access to said Mosque.

[AdamB]

Wrong Dizzy,
Poetic Justice is that the TRUE "RIGHTEOUS" SERVANTS of GOD are the ones that HE has WILLED to WORSHIP there NOW!!

[AdamB]

My skills in Cutting and Pasting not as good as AdamB but you mention massacres against Muslims. How convenient to forget the pogroms against Jews by Muslims thoughout the Levant in the days of the British and French Mandates of Palestine or The millions killed by the Moghuls in their conquest and attempt at Islamifying India.
The conversions of other religion's holy sites into Muslim mosques as a sign of dominance e.g. Ayodhya Temple into the Babri Mosque, Temple Mount into the Al Aqsa Mosque etc.

You wonder why your Religion is non well accepted.

We find comfort in knowing that the true believers in GOD will always be persecuted (generally), wherever they may be.

We know also, that we will have our just reward, not in this life but in the next one, the true life, the only life worth living!!

You didn't respond to the comment though. You act as if Islam is the victim when in many instances they are perpetrators.
But I heard and maybe you can correct me...the lands conquered by Muslims belong to them afterwards. Hence when Jerusalem was conquered the Temple Mount became a mosque.

Poetic Justice that the Jews control access to said Mosque.

Also, please check your history books and tell me who conquered the Palestinians so that the UN could declare the state of Israel within the muslim Palestinian state and make the Palestinians refugees in their own lands?

What Land Deed did the Jews produce? Why didn't the UN make a Jewish state in Germany or somewhere in Europe where they were physically located and were alleged to have been victims of the Holocaust?

Ironic that the jews were persecuted this way and now look at what they are doing to the muslims who took them in and gave them a home!!

[Dizzy28]

My skills in Cutting and Pasting not as good as AdamB but you mention massacres against Muslims. How convenient to forget the pogroms against Jews by Muslims thoughout the Levant in the days of the British and French Mandates of Palestine or The millions killed by the Moghuls in their conquest and attempt at Islamifying India.
The conversions of other religion's holy sites into Muslim mosques as a sign of dominance e.g. Ayodhya Temple into the Babri Mosque, Temple Mount into the Al Aqsa Mosque etc.

You wonder why your Religion is non well accepted.

We find comfort in knowing that the true believers in GOD will always be persecuted (generally), wherever they may be.

We know also, that we will have our just reward, not in this life but in the next one, the true life, the only life worth living!!

You didn't respond to the comment though. You act as if Islam is the victim when in many instances they are perpetrators.
But I heard and maybe you can correct me...the lands conquered by Muslims belong to them afterwards. Hence when Jerusalem was conquered the Temple Mount became a mosque.

Poetic Justice that the Jews control access to said Mosque.

Also, please check your history books and tell me who conquered the Palestinians so that the UN could declare the state of Israel within the muslim Palestinian state and make the Palestinians refugees in their own lands?

What Land Deed did the Jews produce? Why didn't the UN make a Jewish state in Germany or somewhere in Europe where they were physically located and were alleged to have been victims of the Holocaust?

Ironic that the jews were persecuted this way and now look at what they are doing to the muslims who took them in and gave them a home!!

Same can be said for Large parts of India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Where are the land deeds for the Muslims who threw out the Buddhists, Hindus, Jains and Sikhs.

Its called Karma...whether I agree or disagree with the Jewish treatment of the Palestinians and control of holy Islamic Lands, its payback for all the other lands Muslims took by force and never gave back. Check out the Bamiyan Buddha Statues.