The Religion Discussion

[Dizzy28]

i aint going to waste my time anymore with you people... I asked for a fault with Islam and you tellin me your opinions.. also quoting things that have nothing to do with Islam.. But as a normal thing all people of the truth , people always wage war against them... So they did with Moses , Jesus , Muhammad s.a.w... for thos of you who want to live in a world full of crime, rape, abuse, lies, fornication, adultery, homosexuals,.. to you your way ...to me my way... look at an Islamic state saudi arabia... and look at at non- islamic state america...

Saudi have how many killings? how many rape? how many abuse? how many gays? how many women dressing like a dog exposing their bodies?

now what ABOUT a non Islamic state.. Islam is the perfect way of life.... We treasure our women .. we dont send dem out to get rape and den say Blame Kamla for not stoping crime... Islam is the only solution to peace..

The spread of Islam is based in violence.........the Moghul Conquests of India, the Ottoman Empire and spread of Islam in the Europe and the Balkans, the Moors in Spain, the Fatimids and Abbasids..

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

look at an Islamic state saudi arabia... and look at at non- islamic state america...

seriously though, why don't they allow women to drive or vote in Saudi Arabia?

I never understood that

[stickman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_ ... a#Mobility

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ That is a very strange article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#Mobility

that article cites one of the reasons given as
"Women driving cars may lead to overcrowding the streets and many young men may be deprived of the opportunity to drive."



the the most disturbing part of that Wikipedia article is this

Breast milk kinship

In order to reduce the difficulties of strict sex segregation in modern life, some clerics issued a fatwa encouraging women to provide breast milk to any man with whom she comes into regular contact. Abdel Mohsen Obeikan, a renowned Islamic scholar, an adviser to the royal court and consultant to the Ministry of Justice, said in 2010: "The man should take the milk, but not directly from the breast of the woman. He should drink it and then becomes a relative of the family, a fact that allows him to come in contact with the women without breaking Islam's rules about mixing."[52] Breast milk kinship is indeed considered to be as good as a blood relationship in Islam and this way, for example foreign drivers can mix freely with all members of the family without breaking the Islamic rule which does not allow mixing of genders.[52] Another cleric disagreed, saying the man should take the milk straight from her breast. The issue moved one female Saudi blogger to ridicule: "The whole issue just shows how clueless men are. All this back and forth between sheiks and not one bothers to ask a woman if it's logical, let alone possible to breastfeed a grown man five fulfilling breast milk meals. Moreover, the thought of a huge hairy face at a woman's breast does not evoke motherly or even brotherly feelings. It could go from the grotesque to the erotic but definitely not maternal."[53]

The "breast milk" fatwa became a rallying point for right-to-drive activists. They have threatened to start breastfeeding professional drivers, so that they can travel without violating segregation laws: "We either be allowed to drive or breastfeed foreigners."[52]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#Breast_milk_kinship

that does not makes sense and I doubt any Muslim in T&T would support that.

[firstchoicett]

^ interesting but when is Eid ?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ interesting but when is Eid ?

Eid is supposed to be around August 19th or 20th

What does that have to do with the conversation though?

[megadoc1]

lol ....trinis would love this breast milk thing ..is it a one time thing? is it for one person per family? just asking nah, in case ah man have ten daughters and a dozen nieces...

[firstchoicett]

^ interesting but when is Eid ?

Eid is supposed to be around August 19th or 20th

What does that have to do with the conversation though?

well I just wanted to know .... 3 Years in a row I miss Eid due to family commitments hopefully this year I won't miss it .

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

c'mon folks clearly that is not Islam - but some crazy cleric

[AdamB]

c'mon folks clearly that is not Islam - but some crazy cleric

About the driving issue, Saudi may not be totally right but also they may not be totally wrong.

There is a principle in Islam that the causes leading to a prohibition is itself prohibited. Free mingling of the sexes leads to illegal sexual sins. That's a fact which those of you here who allow your wives and daughters to go out in public half-naked should be fearful of the consequences. If not, and you have no problem with your wife and daughters engaging in adultery and fornication, then may GOD help you to be guided to the truth. If you are honest, then certainly you will admit that you do not like it and you most certainly feel jealous or hurt.

So, Saudi may have instituted the "women not driving" issue to curb what it may lead to. Also, Islamic law (GOD's law) does not allow women to go out in public except in the company of close male relatives (mahram). I won't go into the details of who these are.

GOD is the One who created us and HE has set out the laws for us. How ironic it is that some of you may think that you are so cultured or modern that you know better than GOD what is right or wrong for man when we are all as insignificant as a grain of sand on the beach when compared to GOD! Does not the manufacturer know what is best for that which he has designed and manufactured? THAT IS THE REAL ISSUE HERE!

[AdamB]

^ That is a very strange article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#Mobility

that article cites one of the reasons given as
"Women driving cars may lead to overcrowding the streets and many young men may be deprived of the opportunity to drive."



the the most disturbing part of that Wikipedia article is this

Breast milk kinship

In order to reduce the difficulties of strict sex segregation in modern life, some clerics issued a fatwa encouraging women to provide breast milk to any man with whom she comes into regular contact. Abdel Mohsen Obeikan, a renowned Islamic scholar, an adviser to the royal court and consultant to the Ministry of Justice, said in 2010: "The man should take the milk, but not directly from the breast of the woman. He should drink it and then becomes a relative of the family, a fact that allows him to come in contact with the women without breaking Islam's rules about mixing."[52] Breast milk kinship is indeed considered to be as good as a blood relationship in Islam and this way, for example foreign drivers can mix freely with all members of the family without breaking the Islamic rule which does not allow mixing of genders.[52] Another cleric disagreed, saying the man should take the milk straight from her breast. The issue moved one female Saudi blogger to ridicule: "The whole issue just shows how clueless men are. All this back and forth between sheiks and not one bothers to ask a woman if it's logical, let alone possible to breastfeed a grown man five fulfilling breast milk meals. Moreover, the thought of a huge hairy face at a woman's breast does not evoke motherly or even brotherly feelings. It could go from the grotesque to the erotic but definitely not maternal."[53]

The "breast milk" fatwa became a rallying point for right-to-drive activists. They have threatened to start breastfeeding professional drivers, so that they can travel without violating segregation laws: "We either be allowed to drive or breastfeed foreigners."[52]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#Breast_milk_kinship

that does not makes sense and I doubt any Muslim in T&T would support that.

I an not going to waste my time on this "storm in the teacup" issue except to say that this article is entitled "Women's Rights in Saudi Arabia" and begins "Women's rights in Saudi Arabia are defined by Islam and tribal customs. "

Also the section ends "In 2012, after criticizing "reforms aimed at easing restrictions on women" on a local radio station Sheik Obeikan, 81, was reportedly dismissed as an advisor by King Abdullah.[54]"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18042467

Excerpt: King Abdullah has promised women the right to vote in future elections, has opened the country's first co-educational university and introduced measures against domestic violence.

Sheikh Obeikan achieved a degree of notoriety several years ago with a decree suggesting that unrelated Saudi men and women could mix so long as the man drank the woman's breast milk, thus creating a maternal bond between them.

[AdamB]

look at an Islamic state saudi arabia... and look at at non- islamic state america...

seriously though, why don't they allow women to drive or vote in Saudi Arabia?

I never understood that

Ask the Saudi gov't. Also ask from when did women in the West have "equal" rights to vote and own property, like England for instance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Wo ... y_Act_1882

Women in Islam have had the right to own property since over 1400 yrs ago.

The problem here is that you all are making the assumption that "equality" as you see it is correct, so what you see in Islam is wrong. You could not be further from the truth.

Islam does not promote "equality" but rather "justice".

This word – equality – which many thinkers in both the east and the west advocate in various fields of life is a word which is based on deviation and a lack of understanding, especially when the speaker attributes this idea of equality to the Qur’aan and to Islam.

One of the things that people misunderstand is when they say that “Islam is the religion of equality”. What they should say is that Islam is the religion of justice.

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“Here we should note that there are some people who speak of equality instead of justice, and this is a mistake. We should not say equality, because equality implies no differentiation between the two. Because of this unjust call for equality, they started to ask, what is the difference between male and female?’ So they made males and females the same, and then the communists said, ‘What difference is there between ruler and subject? No one has any authority over anyone else, not even fathers and sons; the father has no authority over his son,’ and so on.

But if we say justice, which means giving each one that to which he or she is entitled, this misunderstanding no longer applies, and the word used is correct. Hence it does not say in the Qur’aan that Allaah enjoins equality, rather it says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, Allaah enjoins Al‑‘Adl (i.e. justice)”

[al-Nahl 16:90]

“and that when you judge between men, you judge with justice”

[al-Nisa’ 4:58]

Those who say that Islam is the religion of equality are lying against Islam. Rather Islam is the religion of justice which means treating equally those who are equal and differentiating between those who are different.

No one who knows the religion of Islam would say that it is the religion of equality. Rather what shows you that this principle is false is the fact that most of what is mentioned in the Qur’aan denies equality, as in the following verses:

‘Say: Are those who know equal to those who know not?”

[al-Zumar 39:9]

‘Say: Is the blind equal to the one who sees? Or darkness equal to light?’

[al-Ra’d 13:16]

‘Not equal among you are those who spent and fought before the conquering (of Makkah, with those among you who did so later’

[al-Hadeed 57:10]

‘Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allaah with their wealth and their live’

[al-Nisa’ 4:95]

Not one single letter in the Qur’aan enjoins equality, rather it enjoins justice. You will also find that the word justice is acceptable to people, for I feel that if I am better than this man in terms of knowledge, or wealth, or piety, or in doing good, I would not like for him to be equal to me.

Every man knows that he find it unacceptable if we say that the male is equal to the female.”

Sharh al-‘Aqeedah al-Waasitah, 1/180-181

Based on this, Islam does not regard men and women as equal in matters where regarding them as equal would result in injustice to one of them, because equality that is inappropriate is a severe form of injustice.

[AdamB]

There is absolutely no problems with Islam. The problem exists with man's lack of understanding and subsequent criticism. It's natural to criticize that which opposes your belief. Disbelief criticizing belief? If you don't believe in it, then leave it alone.

Islam was perfected over 1400 yrs ago and no amount of modern science, critical thinking or theology can make it better or disprove it.

There are many problems with Islam. There are moral issues and inconsistencies within the Quran, not to mention Muhammad's disgusting lifestyle. We understand it, that's why we criticize it, we're not blindly criticizing it (that would be a form of faith IMO).

Do you have any proof Islam is perfect? I think you are going in circles on this message board.

Take up your moral issues with the LORD of Everything that Exists!

As for your comment on the lifestyle of Muhammad (saw), He was called the Trustworthy One by his enemies who also left valuables with him to keep safe. By the revelation, mercy and guidance from GOD, in the Arabian society he was able to:
stop idolatry,
stop economic oppression from usury,
stop persons giving short measure in business transactions (trading),
stop burying of girl children alive by their fathers,
stop consumption of alcohol and intoxicants,
stop oppression against women by granting safety to them via marriage,
TO NAME A FEW.

WHAT A DISGUSTING LIFESTYLE!! TAKE A LOOK AT YOUR OWN IN COMPARISON.

[TonyM]

AdamB, why highlight "and tribal customs"?
The breastfeeding issue was a fatwa. I don't think i need to tell you that a fatwa is a juristic ruling concerning Islamic law issued by an Islamic scholar. Islam not tribal customs.

By opening a co-educational university, King Abdullah seems to be disagreeing with your previous post where you justified why women should not drive. Please be consistent and coherent.

It seems to me that everyone is confused as to how far they should go to practice the laws of their religion.

and with regards to your point that skimpy clothes leads to rape:
If a thief breaks into a bank, do they arrest the thief? or do they arrest the guard for not securing the walls properly?

It is similarly stupid to force a woman to cover from head to toe just because men cannot control their urges. Men manage to control their urges all over the world just fine actually, just look at any beach. If what you are saying was even logical then beaches would be places of rape fests and orgies. If rapes are taking place because a woman is not covering her head then something is seriously wrong with the men!

Justifying polygamy today is another pack of nonsense.

Insecure and jealous men made these rules, not God. It is male chauvinism and it is sexist.

There was no clothes in Eden and when Adam and Eve were cast out, God did not make a niqab, burka or a parda for Eve to wear. It doesn't say in the Quran "women cover your head and face only letting your eyes, hands and feet show". It does tell men and women to lower their gaze. Why say lower your gaze if there is nothing to gaze at?

God gave humans great qualities, sense however seems to be greatly lacking in those who claim to be closest to Him.

[TonyM]

oh and you never answered me about slavery. That's justice?

[AdamB]

could anybody in this entire forum tell me one fault about 'ISLAM'? just one....

there are quite a few

The Quran and Muhammad justifies slavery, and often mentions slaves.
Prophet Muhammad himself bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves.
33:50 - "Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty."

It is true that historically Islam moderated slavery and slaves were treated as humans. But they were still slaves.

Muslims practice "Sunnah" which is following in the ways of the Prophet. It seems Muslims today follow his beard, his dress, even his hand placement and sitting on the floor. Somehow though they don't follow his slave trade practices. Inconsistencies?

Slavery is well established in Judaism and Christianity, where it has taken unjust forms.

The issue of slavery is completely different when discussed from the angles of Christianity and Islam, and when compared with the situation that prevailed at the advent of Islam.

Many lies have been fabricated about Islam on this topic, at a time when criminals with lengthy track records are safe and nobody points a finger at them.

Islam and slavery:

Islam affirms that Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, created man fully accountable, and enjoined duties upon him, to which reward and punishment are connected on the basis of man’s free will and choice.

No human being has the right to restrict this freedom or take away that choice unlawfully; whoever dares to do that is a wrongdoer and oppressor.

This is one of the basic principles of Islam. When the question is asked: why does Islam permit slavery? We reply emphatically and without shame that slavery is permitted in Islam, but we should examine the matter with fairness and with the aim of seeking the truth, and we should examine the details of the rulings on slavery in Islam, with regard to the sources and reasons for it, and how to deal with the slave and how his rights and duties are equal to those of the free man, and the ways in which he may earn his freedom, of which there are many in sharee’ah, whilst also taking into consideration the new types of slavery in this world which is pretending to be civilized, modern and progressive.

When Islam came, there were many causes of slavery, such as warfare, debt (where if the debtor could not pay off his debt, he became a slave), kidnapping and raids, and poverty and need.

Slavery did not spread in this appalling manner throughout all continents except by means of kidnapping; rather the main source of slaves in Europe and America in later centuries was this method.

The texts of Islam took a strong stance against this. It says in a hadeeth qudsi: “Allaah, may He be exalted, said: ‘There are three whose opponent I will be on the Day of Resurrection, and whomever I oppose, I will defeat … A man who sold a free man and consumed his price.’” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (2227).

It is worth pointing out that you do not find any text in the Qur’aan or Sunnah which enjoins taking others as slaves, whereas there are dozens of texts in the Qur’aan and the ahaadeeth of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which call for manumitting slaves and freeing them.
There were many sources of slaves at the time of the advent of Islam, whereas the means of manumitting them were virtually nil. Islam changed the way in which slavery was dealt with; it created many new ways of liberating slaves, blocked many ways of enslaving people, and established guidelines which blocked these means.
Islam limited the sources of slaves that existed before the beginning of the Prophet’s mission to one way only: enslavement through war which was imposed on kaafir prisoners-of-war and on their womenfolk and children.

Shaykh al-Shanqeeti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The reason for slavery is kufr and fighting against Allaah and His Messenger. When Allaah enables the Muslim mujaahideen who are offering their souls and their wealth, and fighting with all their strength and with what Allaah has given them to make the word of Allaah supreme over the kuffaar, then He makes them their property by means of slavery unless the ruler chooses to free them for nothing or for a ransom, if that serves the interests of the Muslims. End quote from Adwa’ al-Bayaan (3/387).

He also said:

If it is said: If the slave becomes Muslim then why keep him as a slave, when the reason for slavery is kufr and fighting against Allaah and His Messenger, so this reason no longer applies?

The answer is that the well known principle among the scholars and all wise people, which is that the previously established right cannot be erased by a right that is established later, and that what came first takes precedence, is obvious.

When the Muslims captured kuffaar, their right to possession was affirmed by the law of the Creator of all, Who is All Wise and All Knowing. So this right is confirmed and established. Then if the slave became Muslim after that, his right to escape slavery by embracing Islam was superseded by the mujaahid’s prior right to take possession of him before he became Muslim, and it would be unjust and unfair to annul the prior right because of a subsequent right, as is well known to all wise people.

Yes, it is good for the master to free the slave if he becomes Muslim. The Lawgiver enjoined and encouraged that, and opened many doors to it. Glory be to the Most Wise, the All Knowing. “And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All‑Hearer, the All‑Knower” [al-An’aam 6:115].

“in truth” means in what He tells us, and “in justice” means in His rulings.

Undoubtedly this justice refers to owning slaves and other rulings of the Qur’aan.

How many people criticize something sound when their problem is their own misunderstanding. End quote from Adwa’ al-Bayaan (3/389).

Capture of prisoners during war was the most common way of acquiring slaves. Prisoners would inevitably be captured during any war, and the prevalent custom at that time was that prisoners had no protection or rights; they would either be killed or enslaved. But Islam brought two more options: unconditional release or ransom. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam)” [Muhammad 47:4]. During the battle of Badr the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) accepted ransoms from the mushrik prisoners of war and let them go, and the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) let many of the prisoners go for free, releasing them with no ransom. During the conquest of Makkah it was said to the people of Makkah: “Go, for you are free.”

During the campaign of Banu’l-Mustaliq, the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married a female prisoner from the defeated tribe so as to raise her status, as she was the daughter of one of their leaders, namely the Mother of the Believers Juwayriyah bint al-Haarith (may Allaah be pleased with her). Then the Muslims let all of these prisoners go.

Islam is not thirsty for the blood of prisoners, nor is it eager to enslave them.
Thus we may understand the limited ways that can lead to slavery. Islam did not abolish it altogether, because the kaafir prisoner who was opposed to truth and justice was a wrongdoer, or was a supporter of wrongdoing or was a tool in the execution or approval of wrongdoing. Letting him go free would give him the opportunity to spread wrongdoing and aggression against others and to oppose the truth and prevent it reaching people.

Freedom is a basic human right which cannot be taken away from a person except for a reason. When Islam accepted slavery within the limits that we have described, it put restrictions on the man who exploits his freedom in the worst possible way. If he was taken prisoner in a war of aggression in which he was defeated, then the proper conduct is to keep him in reasonable conditions throughout his detention.

Despite all that, Islam offers many opportunities to restore freedom to him and people like him.

The principle of dealing with slaves in Islam is a combination of justice, kindness and compassion.

One of the means of liberating slaves is allocating a portion of zakaah funds to freeing slaves; the expiation for accidental killing, zihaar (a jaahili form of divorce that is forbidden), breaking vows and having intercourse during the day in Ramadaan, is to free a slave. In addition to that, Muslims are also encouraged in general terms to free slaves for the sake of Allaah.

This is a brief summary of some of the principles of dealing with slaves in a just and kind manner:

1 – Guaranteeing them food and clothing like that of their masters.

It was narrated that Abu Dharr (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “They are your brothers whom Allaah has put under your authority, so if Allaah has put a person’s brother under his authority, let him feed him from what he eats and clothe him from what he wears, and let him not overburden him with work, and if he does overburden him with work, then let him help him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (6050).

2 – Preserving their dignity

It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: I heard Abu’l-Qaasim (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Whoever accuses his slave when he is innocent of what he says will be flogged on the Day of Resurrection, unless he is as he said.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (6858).

Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) manumitted a slave of his, then he picked up a stick or something from the ground and said: There is no more reward in it than the equivalent of this, but I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Whoever slaps his slave or beats him, his expiation is to manumit him.” Narrated by Muslim (1657).

3 – Being fair towards slaves and treating them kindly

It was narrated that ‘Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan tweaked the ear of a slave of his when he did something wrong, then he said to him after that: Come and tweak my ear in retaliation. The slave refused but he insisted, so he started to tweak it slightly, and he said to him: Do it strongly, for I cannot bear the punishment on the Day of Resurrection. The slave said: Like that, O my master? The Day that you fear I fear also.

When ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf (may Allaah be pleased with him) walked among his slaves, no one could tell him apart from them, because he did not walk ahead of them, and he did not wear anything different from what they wore.

One day ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab passed by and saw some slaves standing and not eating with their master. He got angry and said to their master: What is wrong with people who are selfish towards their servants? Then he called the servants and they ate with them.

A man entered upon Salmaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) and found him making dough – and he was a governor. He said to him: O Abu ‘Abd-Allaah, what is this? He said: We have sent our servant on an errand and we do not want to give him two jobs at once.

4 – There is nothing wrong with slaves having precedence over free men in some matters

- with regard to any religious or worldly matters in which he excels over him. For example, it is valid for a slave to lead the prayer. ‘Aa’ishah the Mother of the Believers had a slave who would lead her in prayer. Indeed the Muslims have been commanded to hear and obey even if a slave is appointed in charge of their affairs.

5 – A slave may buy himself from his master and be free.
If a person is enslaved for some reason but then it becomes apparent that he has given up his wrongdoing and forgotten his past, and he has become a man who shuns evil and seeks to do good, is it permissible to respond to his request to let him go free? Islam says yes, and there are some fuqaha’ who say that this is obligatory and some who say that it is mustahabb.

This is what is called a mukaatabah or contract of manumission between the slave and his master. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them. And give them something (yourselves) out of the wealth of Allaah which He has bestowed upon you”

[al-Noor 24:33]

This is how Islam treats slaves justly and kindly.

One of the results of these guidelines is that in many cases, the slave would become a friend of his master; in some cases the master would regard him as a son. Sa’d ibn Haashim al-Khaalidi said, describing a slave of his:

He is not a slave, rather he is a son whom [Allaah] has put under my care.

He has supported me with his good service; he is my hands and my arms.

Another result of the Muslims treating slaves in this manner is that the slaves became part of Muslim families as if they were also family members.

Gustave le Bon says in Hadaarat al-‘Arab (Arab Civilization) (p. 459-460): What I sincerely believe is that slavery among the Muslims is better than slavery among any other people, and that the situation of slaves in the east is better than that of servants in Europe, and that slaves in the east are part of the family. Slaves who wanted to be free could attain freedom by expressing their wish. But despite that, they did not resort to exercising this right.

[AdamB]

AdamB, why highlight "and tribal customs"?
The breastfeeding issue was a fatwa. I don't think i need to tell you that a fatwa is a juristic ruling concerning Islamic law issued by an Islamic scholar. Islam not tribal customs.

By opening a co-educational university, King Abdullah seems to be disagreeing with your previous post where you justified why women should not drive. Please be consistent and coherent.

It seems to me that everyone is confused as to how far they should go to practice the laws of their religion.

and with regards to your point that skimpy clothes leads to rape:
If a thief breaks into a bank, do they arrest the thief? or do they arrest the guard for not securing the walls properly?

It is similarly stupid to force a woman to cover from head to toe just because men cannot control their urges. Men manage to control their urges all over the world just fine actually, just look at any beach. If what you are saying was even logical then beaches would be places of rape fests and orgies. If rapes are taking place because a woman is not covering her head then something is seriously wrong with the men!

Justifying polygamy today is another pack of nonsense.

Insecure and jealous men made these rules, not God. It is male chauvinism and it is sexist.

There was no clothes in Eden and when Adam and Eve were cast out, God did not make a niqab, burka or a parda for Eve to wear. It doesn't say in the Quran "women cover your head and face only letting your eyes, hands and feet show". It does tell men and women to lower their gaze. Why say lower your gaze if there is nothing to gaze at?

God gave humans great qualities, sense however seems to be greatly lacking in those who claim to be closest to Him.

If you believe in GOD, you need to be satisfied or have no objection to what HE has decreed (to be laws for man to follow.)

[AdamB]

Almost made 5 in a row again but this guy was impatient and had to break it up!

[AdamB]

could anybody in this entire forum tell me one fault about 'ISLAM'? just one....

there are quite a few

Islam supports human brutality
Surah 24:2 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

Islam forbids harming innocent people in any way, whether that involves harming their bodies, their wealth or their honour. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There should be neither harming nor reciprocating harm.” It is not permissible to kill a non-muslim who is not hostile or who has a legitimate peace treaty with the Muslims; rather treating a non-hostile non-muslim with kindness is part of the Islamic religion, especially if that is done to call him to Islam and soften his heart (towards Islam). Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allaah loves those who deal with equity”[al-Mumtahinah 60:8]

At times of war against the non-muslims, it is not permissible for a Muslim to deliberately kill a non-muslim child or woman who is not bearing arms against the Muslims or helping in the fight. It was narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to the Muslim army: “Go out in the name of Allaah and by the help of Allaah, following the way of the Messenger of Allaah. Do not kill any old man, infant, child or woman… spread goodness and do good, for Allaah loves those who do good.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2614; its isnaad includes Khaalid ibn al-Faraz, of whom Ibn Hajar said in al-Taqreeb, he is maqbool (acceptable) i.e., if there are corroborating reports)

This is supported by the advice which Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq (may Allaah be pleased with him) gave to the commander of his army: “I advise you of ten things: do not kill a woman, or a child, or any old person, or cut down any fruit trees…” (al-Muwatta’, 982, Kitaab al-Jihaad).

The non-muslims whom the Muslims fight and inflict harm and loss upon are the non-muslims who fight the Muslims and drive them out of their homes, or help to drive them out of their homes and punish and mistreat them, and who stand in the way of calling people to Islam and prevent people from following the path of Allaah, and prevent the spread of Islam. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allaah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zaalimoon (wrongdoers those who disobey Allaah).”[al-Mumtahinah 60:9]

Such people are to be fought against when [the Muslims] have the power to do so, and when fighting them and declaring jihad against them is more likely to serve a purpose. But when you can achieve your purpose with gentleness and kindness, it is not right to resort to violence and force. Muslims should only use force when they are compelled to, and as a last resort. They should not initiate fighting, unless there is some cause on the part of the non-muslims, such as their fighting the Muslims, or helping other enemies of the Muslims, or preventing them from following the path of Allaah and establishing the law of Allaah in the land.

We should also remind these non-muslims of the massacres which have been carried out and are still being carried out against Muslims in all parts of the world, in Bosnia, Kosova, Chechnya, Palestine and Kashmir, which are being supported by Jews, Christians and others. Is the blood of the Muslims cheaper than the blood of others? Should there be mourners for non-Muslims who are killed and not for Muslims who are killed?

Moreover, when the Orthodox Christians carried out massacres in Bosnia and Kosova, in which the numbers of those killed exceeded 200,000, apart from those who were wounded or raped, and the economic losses that resulted, did the Muslims in the Arab and Islamic countries launch attacks against the Orthodox Christians who live in their countries, or kill any of them, or open fire against their churches and subject them to terror?! What does this tell you?
It is very important for Muslims to explain these things to non-Muslims, in order to establish proof against them. This is something that Allaah wants. Secondly, among the non-muslims there are intelligent and fair-minded people, and people who are receptive to the guidance of Islam; perhaps they will be affected by a clear explanation. Thirdly, no Muslim should permit himself to be accused without explaining his innocence. The distorted image of Muslims is one of the things that is keeping the non-muslims away from the truth and being affected by the Muslims; indeed it may make them treat the Muslims like outcasts, resulting in additional wrongdoing towards the Muslims.

[AdamB]

could anybody in this entire forum tell me one fault about 'ISLAM'? just one....

there are quite a few

Islam supports human brutality
Surah 24:2 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

Capital punishment applies in the case of a person who meets the following condition: The married adulterer. The punishment in this case is to be stoned to death.

Al-muhsan or the married person here means one who got married and had intercourse with his wife in the vagina, in a legitimate marriage in which both parties are free, of sound mind and adults. If a married man or woman commits adultery, then they are to be stoned to death, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Learn from me. Allaah has given them a way out. If an unmarried person commits fornication with an unmarried person, (the punishment is) one hundred lashes and exile for one year. If a married person commits adultery with a married person, (the punishment is) one hundred lashes and stoning.” (Narrated by Muslim, 1690).

[AdamB]

If a married man or woman commits adultery, then they are to be stoned to death, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Learn from me. Allaah has given them a way out. If an unmarried person commits fornication with an unmarried person, (the punishment is) one hundred lashes and exile for one year. If a married person commits adultery with a married person, (the punishment is) one hundred lashes and stoning.” (Narrated by Muslim, 1690).

The WAY OUT is that the punishment is atonement or expiation for the sin. This means that the person will not be punished again for the sin in the next life, the TRUE LIFE. Otherwise the consequences will be terrible (in punishment). According to Muslim Theology / Belief.

[AdamB]

still awaiting a answer to my question?

it is a sad attempt at reinventing the bible to develop a more rigid form of social control
of all the current religions, it is the least subtle when it comes to social conditioning
heck it attacks other religions for idolatry, yet requires pilgrims to kiss a rock that is supposedly a hunk of heaven, but is more than likely just a hunk of meteorite

You are entitled to your belief but we will hold fast to ours as long as we have evidence to support it that it is authentically reported and forms part of the Sunnah of our Prophet.

Details as to the correct significance in Islam, for your benefit: I hope that you will take the time to read at least to appreciate why we believe in what we believe pertaining to this matter and that it is not just "blind following". Some factions of the Muslim Ummah (community) do that but not all. Some of us follow right guidance that has sufficiently reasonable explanations that accompany our beliefs.

What's the importance of the BlackStone in Kaaba, what does represent ?

Praise be to Allaah.

There are a number of ahaadeeth etc. about the Black Stone which we will quote for our brother so that he may learn from them.

1. The Black Stone was sent down by Allaah to this earth from Paradise.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Black Stone came down from Paradise.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; al-Nasaa’i, 2935. The hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Tirmidhi).

2. The Stone was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When the Black Stone came down from Paradise, it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; Ahmad, 2792. Classed as saheeh by Ibn Khuzaymah, 4/219. Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar classed it as qawiy (strong) in Fath al-Baari, 3/462).



(a) Al-Mubaarakfoori said in al-Marqaah: This means, the sins of the sons of Adam who touched the stone, caused it to turn black. The hadeeth should be taken at face value, because there is no reason not to, either narrated in a report or by virtue of common sense.

(Tuhfat al-Ahwadhi, 3/525)

(b) Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said: Some heretics tried to criticize this hadeeth by saying: How come the sins of the mushrikeen turned it black and the worship of the people of Tawheed did not make it white?

I answer by quoting what Ibn Qutaybah said: If Allaah had willed, that would have happened. But Allaah has caused it to be the case that black usually changes other colours and its not itself changed, which is the opposite to what happens with white.

(c) Al-Muhibb al-Tabari said: The fact that it is black is a lesson for those who have insight. If sins can have this effect on an inanimate rock, then the effect they have on the heart is greater.

See Fath al-Baari, 3/463

3. The Black Stone will come forth on the Day of Resurrection and will testify in favour of those who touched it in truth.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning the Stone: “By Allaah, Allaah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 961; Ibn Maajah, 2944

This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi, and as qawiy by al-Haafiz ibn Hajar in Fath al-Baari, 3/462

(4) Touching, kissing or pointing to the Black Stone – this is the first thing to be done when starting Tawaaf, whether it is for Hajj or ‘Umrah, or voluntary Tawaaf.
It was narrated from Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to Makkaah, he came to the Black Stone and touched it, then he walked to the right of it and ran three times and walked three times [around the Ka’bah].

(narrated by Muslim, 1218).

(5) The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kissed the Black Stone, and his ummah followed his lead in doing so.

It was narrated that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) came to the Black Stone and kissed it, then he said: “I know that you are only a stone which can neither bring benefit nor cause harm. Were it not that I had seen the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kiss you, I would not have kissed you.”
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1520; Muslim, 1720)

(6) If a person is unable to kiss the Stone, he should touch it with his hand or something else, then he can kiss the thing with which he touched it.



(a) It was narrated that Naafi’ said: I saw Ibn ‘Umar touch the Stone with his hand then he kissed his hand. I said, I have never ceased to do this since I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) do it.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1268)

(b) It was narrated that Abu Tufayl (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) performing Tawaaf around the House, touching the corner [where the Stone is] with a crooked staff which he had with him, then kissing the staff.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1275).

(7) If a person is unable to do the above, then he can point to it with his hand and say “Allaahu akbar”.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) performed Tawaaf on his camel, and every time he came to the corner [where the Stone is] he would point to it and say “Allaahu akbar.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4987).

(8) Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah expiates for sins

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is an expiation for sins.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 959. This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi and as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/664). Al-Dhahabi agreed with him).

It is not permissible for a Muslim to annoy other Muslims at the Stone by hitting or fighting. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us that the Stone will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity, which is not the case when a person touches it by disturbing the slaves of Allaah.

And Allaah knows best.

[AdamB]

could anybody in this entire forum tell me one fault about 'ISLAM'? just one....

Abrogation
The concept of "abrogation" in the Quran is that Allah chose to reveal ayat (singular ayah – means a sign or miracle, commonly a verse in the Quran) that supercede earlier ayat in the same Quran.

Abrogation (Naksh/Tafsir) employs the logic of chronology and progressive revelation. The different situations encountered over the course of Muhammad's more than two decade term as Prophet, it is argued, required new rulings to meet the Muslim community's changing circumstances.

The verse above in which it says "an Adulterer must be lashed 100 times" is said by Islamic scholars to have been cancelled and replaced with death.

There is abrogation in the Quran and so too in the bible.
God supposedly needed to change what he proclaimed to be right.
The ALL KNOWING and ALL WISE God needed to provide better commands after earlier commands have not worked or proved to be too harsh or not effective.

This does not match with the concept that God is perfect and infallible. Why does God need to change what he said earlier.
It proves that these books were written over very long periods of time by various men who pieced together what they thought was right at the time. They should not have stopped!

There are certain laws or commands from GOD that do not change. The most important is that HE is ONE and has no partner or associate in Lordship or Divinity or Names and Attributes.

The conditions of different peoples at different times were different so the laws governing social interactions were different. For example, if the message given to Jesus (not Jesus himself) was sent to the Israelites at the time of Moses when they were practically slaves in Egypt under the Pharoah. Then they would have remained as such but their freedom required them to leave the land of oppression.

Similarly if the message of Moses were sent to the Jews at the time of Jesus, then they would most certainly been annihilated by the Romans.

Also, people at the time of Noah or earlier were one community. So understandibly some of the laws would have been different as they did not have to contend with other states or countries or communities.

There is wisdom and justice in all of the laws of GOD for those who have the knowledge and insight to see it.

None of these laws is totally right or totally wrong but the point is what is best or most appropriate for the people at the particular time and circumstances.

[MG Man]

still awaiting a answer to my question?

it is a sad attempt at reinventing the bible to develop a more rigid form of social control
of all the current religions, it is the least subtle when it comes to social conditioning
heck it attacks other religions for idolatry, yet requires pilgrims to kiss a rock that is supposedly a hunk of heaven, but is more than likely just a hunk of meteorite

ok boss... whats the fault you showing me with islam? i'm a bit loss

weakness: your religion contradicts itself. Kissing the stone encased in the kaba is idolatry, which your religion say sis wrong........that is a fault

[AdamB]

still awaiting a answer to my question?

it is a sad attempt at reinventing the bible to develop a more rigid form of social control
of all the current religions, it is the least subtle when it comes to social conditioning
heck it attacks other religions for idolatry, yet requires pilgrims to kiss a rock that is supposedly a hunk of heaven, but is more than likely just a hunk of meteorite

ok boss... whats the fault you showing me with islam? i'm a bit loss

weakness: your religion contradicts itself. Kissing the stone encased in the kaba is idolatry, which your religion say sis wrong........that is a fault

MG, are you delusional? read the above post nah.

It is not being worshipped. FULL STOP.

[16 cycles]

....the Stone will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity, which is not the case when a person touches it by disturbing the slaves of Allaah

can someone please explain the history behind the stone? was it the birthplace of a prophet? - i get the significance of it from the quoted section - no probs there...

please in your own words...........i not up to reading exceptionally long prose from scholars.....one day maybe.....

edit: nevermind - read the post back to front and understood..........serious talk...

[MG Man]

still awaiting a answer to my question?

it is a sad attempt at reinventing the bible to develop a more rigid form of social control
of all the current religions, it is the least subtle when it comes to social conditioning
heck it attacks other religions for idolatry, yet requires pilgrims to kiss a rock that is supposedly a hunk of heaven, but is more than likely just a hunk of meteorite

ok boss... whats the fault you showing me with islam? i'm a bit loss

weakness: your religion contradicts itself. Kissing the stone encased in the kaba is idolatry, which your religion say sis wrong........that is a fault

MG, are you delusional? read the above post nah.

It is not being worshipped. FULL STOP.

why are you required to kiss it?
nowadays, due to the mass of pilgrims, if you can't kiss it, at least point at it............seriously.........why?
worshipping god not good enough?

[16 cycles]

“Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is an expiation for sins.”

If a person is unable to do the above, then he can point to it with his hand and say “Allaahu akbar”.

from above AdamB

2. expiation - the act of atoning for sin or wrongdoing (especially appeasing a deity)expiation - the act of atoning for sin or wrongdoing

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/expiation

[MG Man]

“Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is an expiation for sins.”

If a person is unable to do the above, then he can point to it with his hand and say “Allaahu akbar”.

from above AdamB

2. expiation - the act of atoning for sin or wrongdoing (especially appeasing a deity)expiation - the act of atoning for sin or wrongdoing

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/expiation

soooooooooo...........praying to allah is not enough?

[16 cycles]

from what i gather - religious activities that require some sort of self sacrifice obtain higher atonement points than just praying.....