The Religion Discussion

[d spike]

I was asked a similar question many moons ago:

dspike what is the purpose of creation?? is it not to worship???

Most Christians should view 'worship' as the simple and true answer to this question, but it isn't really complete - as the concept of 'worship' differs. 'Worship' can easily be seen as meaning the joyous (and sometimes cacophonic) shouting and singing one sees being 'performed'... but this is just a very small (and optional) part of what 'worship' is.
If you give a young lad a bicycle, you would be rather upset if he never rides it. We were placed here among the Creation, to be part of it. One can worship the Creator by enjoying his Creation! (To further illustrate the point I wish to make: If you had a pretty wife, how would you show her every night how glad you were to be her husband?)
So if you think about it, those who enjoy life to the fullest, and revel in their existence, are worshiping God. (They, in some way, have clearly understood PART of why we are here - and they will discover more as they journey through life... BUT IN THEIR OWN TIME.
You need to ask yourself (NOT other people... Megadoc1 had it wrong from the starting line) if you believe Someone is in charge of this whole affair. If your answer is 'yes', then you need to trust that he has a plan - and you do your part. (Meddling in his affairs by messing with other people's lives isn't your part. To explain: we are all called to walk a path. Each of us has our own path. To stop walking in order to start directing traffic, or to go and drag people off their path to walk alongside you, may not be the best thing for that person.)

Now the worship of the Creator by man is of three basic types: individual, communal and universal. Individual worship is self-explanatory, as is communal. Universal worship (can't remember the proper scholastic term, but bear with me and my failing mind) concerns the Creator's plan for us, and is the main reason for our creation. We were brought into being - whether created in an instant, or brought into creation over a period of time (evolved?), is neither here nor there - as a race that propagates itself, and hands down knowledge across generations. This has to be for a reason. We are meant to achieve something... something good and wonderful... so wonderful, that everyone will be aware of it and its meaning... and the role the Creator played in all time. This is the plan. Its achievement will be the glory of our race, and to the greater glory of him who made us, and gave us the gifts to achieve. All will realise... "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess..." (Unfortunately, many people see the end of our time here as cataclysmic - thanks to the apocalyptic idiom used by the Jews - and a sort of 'victory dance' for "us" to do over the defeated "them".)

For those of you who wish to be carried away by the phrase "revel in their existence", please note that I said: revel IN their existence, which does not mean "to party", but rather to find joy in the fact that they are alive and part of a greater creation.

[bluefete]

Science does not attempt to disprove God's existence, it attempts to explain his work. - ZangMonkey

Is this true?

Duane: Laws are constantly reformed in an evolving and changing world. Just consider the gay marriage laws enacted in some countries. However, this makes me wonder in what direction humans are "evolving". Taken to the extreme, maybe we can expect laws to legalize marriage between man and beast next.

The more we move away from God's laws, the more perverted we become.

The naturally curly-headed one (Kevin Baldeosingh) trotted out statistics, today, to show that countries that have legalized gay marriages and permit adoption for gay couples have the lowest crime rates. ?????????????????????????????????

Statistics! Can't live with them. Can't live without them.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ so you think we should have kept slavery, since there are guidelines and laws on how to treat your slaves, which slaves you can sleep with etc etc in the holy book.

[Humes]

Science does not attempt to disprove God's existence, it attempts to explain his work. - ZangMonkey

The first part is definitely true. Nothing proven by science proves that a God doesn't exist. But science has discovered a lot about the natural world that goes against how many people interpret various religious texts.

A lot of people just look at scientific explanations of the natural world as explanations of how God made the world work. Some people look at evolution, for example, as a brilliant system that God put into action.

It's only the foolish who get vex and try to disprove hard science with pseudoscience and dishonest, disingenuous arguments.

[Humes]

(Now watch something eh...I could almost bet money on it.)

[firstchoicett]

Share it ^

[thermaltake]

Once a cutomer went to barber to get a haircut. During the haircut he began to converse with the barber and he said, 'you know what.. i dont believe in God. If there was a God then why is there so much evil and suffering and poverty around the world, there cannot be a God!' The Barber decided it was best not to reply and so continued with the haricut. After it was finished, the customer paid the Barber and left the Salon.

Five minutes later, the customer returned and said to the barber, 'you know what... barbers dont exist!' The Barber replied,'What do you mean barbers don't exist, I'm a barber!' The customer replied,
' If barbers exist then why is there a man outside who is really dirty and hairy with hair up to his mid back and a really unclean,long beard?'

The Barber replied,' Just because there is a man outside who is really hairy and scruffy with dirty hair and beard doesn't mean barbers don't exist. He didn't come to me so how can I help him?'

Similarly, just because there is poverty and suffering around the world doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, if they don't turn to Him then how do they expect God to help them?

And Allah Knows Best.

[thermaltake]

CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST

Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

My Muslim brothers may question .. why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’.


So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.

LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD

My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.

If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.

Similarly the atheist rejects the false gods and the duty of every Muslim is to present the correct concept of God which he shall Insha Allah not refuse.

(You may refer to my article, ‘Concept of God in Islam’, for more details)


QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE

The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the ‘Concept of God in Islam’ to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.

Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN: for details on this subject please refer to my book, ‘THE QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE – COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?


THEORY OF PROBABILITY

In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.


CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN

The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.

QUR’AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE

Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.


SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD

Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).

Surah Fussilat:

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

[Al-Quran 41:53]

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Similarly, just because there is poverty and suffering around the world doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, if they don't turn to Him then how do they expect God to help them?

Las Vegas is wealthy and thriving and Afghanistan and Somalia are full of poverty and suffering.

[Dizzy28]

In expanding on what Duane said
Top 10 Most Religious Countries
Egypt
Bangladesh
Sri Lanka
Indonesia
Congo
Sierra Leone
Malawi
Senegal
Djibouti
Morocco
UAE

Ten Least Religious Countries
Estonia
Sweden
Denmark
Norway
Czech Republic
Azerbaijan
Hong Kong
Japan
France
Mongolia
Belarus

God punishes those countries that don't believe by generally having them have more prosperous economies with better standards of living whilst he rewards the most religious countries with poverty and lower indices of life quality?

[pseudorandom]

I heard someone talk about religion in terms of odds and risk to reward ratio.

Bet no. 1 - you are betting God does not exist. If you win this bet, you win a lifetime of complete freedom not having to waste your precious life according to a nonexistant God's rules. If you lose, you end up in burning hell forever.

Bet no. 2 - you are betting God exists. If you win this bet, you win eternity in paradise. If you lose this bet, you lose the many years of your life wasted worshiping and serving a nonexistant God.

Since there is no definite proof God exists or does not exist, assume the odds of winning or losing each bet is 50%. Which one is the risk to reward ratio highly skewed such that the potential profit is far greater than the potential loss? Which one is the risk to reward ratio highly skewed such that the potential loss is far greater than the potential profit? Based on these answers, and assuming 50% chance of win, which bet would you take?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

I heard someone talk about religion in terms of odds and risk to reward ratio.

Bet no. 1 - you are betting God does not exist. If you win this bet, you win a lifetime of complete freedom not having to waste your precious life according to a nonexistant God's rules. If you lose, you end up in burning hell forever.

Bet no. 2 - you are betting God exists. If you win this bet, you win eternity in paradise. If you lose this bet, you lose the many years of your life wasted worshiping and serving a nonexistant God.

Since there is no definite proof God exists or does not exist, assume the odds of winning or losing each bet is 50%. Which one is the risk to reward ratio highly skewed such that the potential profit is far greater than the potential loss? Which one is the risk to reward ratio highly skewed such that the potential loss is far greater than the potential profit? Based on these answers, and assuming 50% chance of win, which bet would you take?

that is a really bad reason for following a religion

[thermaltake]

God test manking with wealth.. He also test them with poverty... To see their reaction.... That doesn't mean a a manm pray and ask 24/7 his life will be perfect... but if its not then he is being tested..

[Humes]

God punishes those countries that don't believe by generally having them have more prosperous economies with better standards of living whilst he rewards the most religious countries with poverty and lower indices of life quality?

That eh God...they worshippin de devil!

(But if they religious and prosperous, it's God.)

[thermaltake]

God punishes those countries that don't believe by generally having them have more prosperous economies with better standards of living whilst he rewards the most religious countries with poverty and lower indices of life quality?

That eh God...they worshippin de devil!

(But if they religious and prosperous, it's God.)

well said!!!!!!!!

[Humes]

Oh boy.

[firstchoicett]

Ok now this is a serious question anyone here ever see a jumbie? Or any paranormal activity ? This might be the thread to ask . Do you believe in those things ?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Oh boy.

seems to be a global crisis

[AdamB]

Ok now this is a serious question anyone here every see a jumbie? Or any paranormal activity ? This might be the thread to ask . Do you believe in those things ?

Dey have internet in St Anns?

[firstchoicett]

^ lol serious thing .

[AdamB]

Ok now this is a serious question anyone here ever see a jumbie? Or any paranormal activity ? This might be the thread to ask . Do you believe in those things ?

I have heard of (not experienced) such occurrences. From the muslim perspective, they are related to person's being "possessed" by jinns, beings created from smokeless fire (hence some refer to them as "spirits"). We cannot see them but I presume that they can see us.

Satan is a jinn (not angel) from Islamic perspective. They have free will just like man. There are good ones and bad / evil ones. AH NOT GOING TO DEFINE EVIL!!

Some can be influenced by us due to our behaviour and actions (deeds). Some are followers of Satan and are intentionally trying to distract us from the way of GOD. One of their major objectives is to break up marriages. The effects are obvious - in some or most cases - persons seeking illegal sexual relations, children being neglected, religion / obedience to GOD taking a back seat, etc.

The evil ones like wet, filthy places like toilets. We seek refuge with GOD before entering these places, keep it as clean as possible. They "possess" persons and are difficult but not impossible to remove. They are followers of religion as well.

My christian friends here might be able to tell us of their "experiences". Some christians say that they have been possessed by the "Holy Spirit". Which leads me to think that they have been possessed by a jinn (or on a natural high and mistaking it with possession) because I don't believe in the spirit of GOD/Holy Spirit entering into persons to influence them. To me that would be extremely biased on the part of GOD to choose some persons as the means by which to get them to follow HIS way because they would not have exercised their franchise of "choice".

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

are Jinn or Humans greater in God's eyes?

[firstchoicett]

^ your explanation was very well understood. Well as Hindu we say sprits or jumbie . Long time ago when I was about 8 years I saw a ball of fire Freeport side never saw it again . A few years ago my cusion saw a girl on the highway he drove straight true her,

I have a friend she get posses by sprits they try to control her body I never say it happen but her family said its true .

The only thing I witness was a few years ago I saw a bright light outside my room , never saw it since . Now and then you get the feeling someone watching you. I'm not scared of those things I past true much worst then that , people who have a weak and God less souls will be the ones to suffer a attack.

[firstchoicett]

are Jinn or Humans greater in God's eyes?

humans creations is the greatest things God ever created.

[AdamB]

are Jinn or Humans greater in God's eyes?

humans creations is the greatest things God ever created.

It's not a competition...well...only with ourself...to be better or more obedient to GOD than we were before.

[AdamB]

are Jinn or Humans greater in God's eyes?

humans creations is the greatest things God ever created.

I'm not disputing your statement but you are free to state your evidence from your religious source or explanation of why you think so.

[firstchoicett]

are Jinn or Humans greater in God's eyes?

humans creations is the greatest things God ever created.[/quote]
I'm not disputing your statement but you are free to state your evidence from your religious source or explanation of why you think so.

Before i make a comment on this i will ask my Guru so i wont miss lead anyone.

[Humes]

So here's a relevant diversion:

[thermaltake]

are Jinn or Humans greater in God's eyes?

God said humans is the best of his creations... We are better than the Jinns..

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

are Jinn or Humans greater in God's eyes?

God said humans is the best of his creations... We are better than the Jinns..

so why can Jinns bring sickness and tempt us but we can't do the same to them?