Gulf of Paria Underwater Welders Deaths: Lawsuits Filed

[greggle71]

Question - would a job like this require the divers to tethered to a rescue line? So that in any emergency situation they could be pulled out? What is the industry best practice for jobs like this?

A tethering line on a mechanical pulley should be standard equipment in any kinda underwater job site like this to me

Anything goes wrong you pull out those brothers immediately

[16 cycles]

Best practice is to eliminate risk by engineering it out...PPE is last resort, not that strong of a barrier.


More learned folks might chime in on best practice for similar scope.

[Val]

If it was considered a falling in hazard with the pipe they could’ve been tethered within the habitat but it wasn’t considered.

Delta P is well known in the diving industry and the risk should’ve been identified. Lowest bid when the technical evaluation is inadequate leads to disaster.

Regarding rescue, if it never happened locally so there isn’t any local experience with same, seek advice from expert foreigners if necessary. With the communication tech we have now, this could’ve been done in minutes. BP for example could’ve brought their significantly more experienced ROV and Dive contractors to a virtual call for advice.

[pugboy]

using non-scuba they would be tethered somewhat just by nature of the air line and other lines
but a delta p vacuum sucking could strangle you on your own lines too

Question - would a job like this require the divers to tethered to a rescue line? So that in any emergency situation they could be pulled out? What is the industry best practice for jobs like this?

A tethering line on a mechanical pulley should be standard equipment in any kinda underwater job site like this to me

Anything goes wrong you pull out those brothers immediately

[greggle71]

using non-scuba they would be tethered somewhat just by nature of the air line and other lines
but a delta p vacuum sucking could strangle you on your own lines too

Question - would a job like this require the divers to tethered to a rescue line? So that in any emergency situation they could be pulled out? What is the industry best practice for jobs like this?

A tethering line on a mechanical pulley should be standard equipment in any kinda underwater job site like this to me

Anything goes wrong you pull out those brothers immediately

Thanks for the insight, when I saw the pics shown of the team in scuba gear before they went in and then later saw the actual size of the pipe they were supposed to work in, it just didn’t add up to me, how could you even navigate through that pipe with those size flippers but again just my initial thoughts as a lay person.

By default we kinda rely on the people actually taking the risk to ensure their safety with utilizing whatever methods and equipment without cutting corners.

My worry is that local contractors sometimes cut corners in order to win tenders from companies, and companies sometimes just award contracts based on who coming in with the lowest price and then indemnify themselves contractually for all risks.

I am fine with the COE going down the current path of examining the events during and after the fact but I hope they also pay attention to events before the incident like the tendering and contracting procedures in awarding work like this as both will help in ensuring that this won’t happen again. Sometimes a price is too good to be true.

[pugboy]

scuba is a not normally used for commercial diving and somewhat frowned upon

[gastly369]

using non-scuba they would be tethered somewhat just by nature of the air line and other lines
but a delta p vacuum sucking could strangle you on your own lines too

Question - would a job like this require the divers to tethered to a rescue line? So that in any emergency situation they could be pulled out? What is the industry best practice for jobs like this?

A tethering line on a mechanical pulley should be standard equipment in any kinda underwater job site like this to me

Anything goes wrong you pull out those brothers immediately

Thanks for the insight, when I saw the pics shown of the team in scuba gear before they went in and then later saw the actual size of the pipe they were supposed to work in, it just didn’t add up to me, how could you even navigate through that pipe with those size flippers but again just my initial thoughts as a lay person.

By default we kinda rely on the people actually taking the risk to ensure their safety with utilizing whatever methods and equipment without cutting corners.

My worry is that local contractors sometimes cut corners in order to win tenders for companies, and companies sometimes just award contracts based on who coming in with the lowest price and then indemnify themselves contractually for all risks.

I am fine with the COE going down the current path of examining the events during and after the fact but I hope they also pay attention to events before the incident like the tendering and contracting procedures in awarding work like this as both will help in ensuring that this won’t happen again. Sometimes a price is too good to be true.

Heritage / paria is
"as cheap as we can get it"

Should be their motto

Have men who certified in using a brush cutter now doing HV/LV electrical for them...

[sMASH]

This is a real technical situation.In thinking about it from both sides of the argument,my thought process contradicts itself.
My questions now are;
Why wasn't a backup plan put into place?This kind of situation has happened in places before.The possibility existed that something like this could happen.Why were there no proper procedures in place?

Going forward,no matter what plays off in this situation, are we going to be more strict with reducing the risk of life threatening situations,or be as complacent as ever?

In other companies, all eventualities are imagined and a plan developed for thst.

Very little can occur that would not have been for seen.

[sMASH]

People saying, piper saying, they don't know the risks.

How many actual hazards Could there have been?

It's a horizontal pipe with two vertical ends.

No pump, compressor, valve, impact from a vehicle of object.

No cracken or godzilla.


What exactly were piper et al afraid of?

The cause of the delta P?

Once the both ends have all energy sources isolated, messing any fluid lines or electrical lines, isolated, the piping would equate with ambient pressures and levels.
So it would be safe to enter to rescue.

[sMASH]

Literally itemize the risks/hazards in that system that may impact the rescue

Hazards:
1.
2.
3.
...

[De Dragon]

Best practice is to eliminate risk by engineering it out...PPE is last resort, not that strong of a barrier.


More learned folks might chime in on best practice for similar scope.

Rescue means whether through tethers, retractable winches etc, should be in the rescue plan, BUT there has to be awareness of the possibility of a scenario like what occurred first. Paria somewhat bizarre and casual admittance that they had no technical expertise, and thus no seeming input into the scope,, risk assessment, rescue plan and hazard mitigation is baffling.
It seems that both contractor and Paria were lulled into a false sense of security and complacency from performing the job before, and did not approach it from a critical thinking point.

[nervewrecker]

using non-scuba they would be tethered somewhat just by nature of the air line and other lines
but a delta p vacuum sucking could strangle you on your own lines too

Question - would a job like this require the divers to tethered to a rescue line? So that in any emergency situation they could be pulled out? What is the industry best practice for jobs like this?

A tethering line on a mechanical pulley should be standard equipment in any kinda underwater job site like this to me

Anything goes wrong you pull out those brothers immediately

Thanks for the insight, when I saw the pics shown of the team in scuba gear before they went in and then later saw the actual size of the pipe they were supposed to work in, it just didn’t add up to me, how could you even navigate through that pipe with those size flippers but again just my initial thoughts as a lay person.

By default we kinda rely on the people actually taking the risk to ensure their safety with utilizing whatever methods and equipment without cutting corners.

My worry is that local contractors sometimes cut corners in order to win tenders for companies, and companies sometimes just award contracts based on who coming in with the lowest price and then indemnify themselves contractually for all risks.

I am fine with the COE going down the current path of examining the events during and after the fact but I hope they also pay attention to events before the incident like the tendering and contracting procedures in awarding work like this as both will help in ensuring that this won’t happen again. Sometimes a price is too good to be true.

Heritage / paria is
"as cheap as we can get it"

Should be their motto

Have men who certified in using a brush cutter now doing HV/LV electrical for them...

People can learn.

The Hv / Lv line repair and building may be handled by such but only with instructions and supervision from experienced personnel.

Other more technical aspects such as switching, decommissionoing for repairs and maintenance, substation repairs and maintenance, handling feeders etc is in fact handled by more experienced and certified personnel. Personel is on site for the duration and protocol is adhered to.

Proper toolbox meeting is done, jsa reviewed and discussed, risks identified and all measures for dealing with such discussed and executed in a professional manner with proper documentation for isolation and normalization.

A young man has in fact started with cutting grass, becoming the "gofor", learned other technical aspects and function moderately in that role. He got an offer from another company bout 2 weeks ago. Never underestimate a mans ability to learn and his desire to do so. A man like that will excel more than others with a lot of schooling.

[matr1x]

Catherine buss down some fake tears there. Anyone seriously buy that act?

[The_Honourable]

Catherine buss down some fake tears there. Anyone seriously buy that act?

Tears are real but we don't have sympathy for her and Piper.

[matr1x]

Catherine buss down some fake tears there. Anyone seriously buy that act?

Tears are real but we don't have sympathy for her and Piper.

Word is she was giggling a while after. It was an act

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Catherine buss down some fake tears there. Anyone seriously buy that act?

Tears are real but we don't have sympathy for her and Piper.

Word is she was giggling a while after. It was an act

People cry during a funeral at the time and then they smile and laugh while talking to family a short while after - that’s not unusual.

[matr1x]

A crying woman card is not new in testimony. Lots of lawyers like it as a strategy

[The_Honourable]

A crying woman card is not new in testimony. Lots of lawyers like it as a strategy

That's true, just know tuners already know your strategy.

[MaxPower]

A crying woman card is not new in testimony. Lots of lawyers like it as a strategy

Slim,

Is it really every woman you have an issue with?

Anyways, in not buying the tears.

[matr1x]

Not all women. Just lying ones who know they got caught lying and playing the sympathy card.

[mad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK47SC6kr_A
Nice video here in case some of the keyboard lawyers think diving in a pipe has never been done before.

I am pretty sure they have a rescue plan in case their divers are stuck in the pipe; performing repairs to said pipe.

Notice he went feet down first in the riser then turned at the elbow. Although this is 42'' which is bigger than 36'' but a small frame diver can attempt this in a 36'' pipe.

[Val]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK47SC6kr_A
Nice video here in case some of the keyboard lawyers think diving in a pipe has never been done before.

I am pretty sure they have a rescue plan in case their divers are stuck in the pipe; performing repairs to said pipe.

Notice he went feet down first in the riser then turned at the elbow. Although this is 42'' which is bigger than 36'' but a small frame diver can attempt this in a 36'' pipe.

The pipeline was 30".

[Redress10]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK47SC6kr_A
Nice video here in case some of the keyboard lawyers think diving in a pipe has never been done before.

I am pretty sure they have a rescue plan in case their divers are stuck in the pipe; performing repairs to said pipe.

Notice he went feet down first in the riser then turned at the elbow. Although this is 42'' which is bigger than 36'' but a small frame diver can attempt this in a 36'' pipe.

They were not working inside the pipe. The works were conducted on the outside so not sure they would consider contigencies for divers stuck inside the pipeline. The delta p was an anomaly . They were not at any time suppose to be in the pipeline. The pipeline was filled with toxic materials.

That being said what sort of rescue plan needs to take place to rescue 4 men stuck in a 30" pipeline that they not suppose to be in. I think many of us have been downplaying just how difficult a rescue of this nature may have been in reality. That 42" pipeline barely has any room for the diver to turn his head I can only imagine how small a 30" pipeline would be to send support materials and equipment through to enact a successful rescue effort.

[Redress10]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK47SC6kr_A
Nice video here in case some of the keyboard lawyers think diving in a pipe has never been done before.

I am pretty sure they have a rescue plan in case their divers are stuck in the pipe; performing repairs to said pipe.

Notice he went feet down first in the riser then turned at the elbow. Although this is 42'' which is bigger than 36'' but a small frame diver can attempt this in a 36'' pipe.

The pipeline was 30".

Val

Would a pipeline such as that also pose an combustible risk due to the nature of materials it have in it? Would that also impact on the rescue plan as well?

[Val]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK47SC6kr_A
Nice video here in case some of the keyboard lawyers think diving in a pipe has never been done before.

I am pretty sure they have a rescue plan in case their divers are stuck in the pipe; performing repairs to said pipe.

Notice he went feet down first in the riser then turned at the elbow. Although this is 42'' which is bigger than 36'' but a small frame diver can attempt this in a 36'' pipe.

The pipeline was 30".

Val

Would a pipeline such as that also pose an combustible risk due to the nature of materials it have in it? Would that also impact on the rescue plan as well?

Yes of course. Why else would they plug it during the hot works?

Fire & Explosion would not be a significant risk in a pipeline that is now flooded with seawater with a non-hot work / spark potential rescue plan, in terms of the rescue. The gases (because of toxicity, not flammability) will reduce the survival time of the rescuees, and the rescuers would have had to be equipped with fully closed loop breathing apparatus.

[sMASH]

The initial method was to drain out all liquid, and still plug. So, the plug primarily was to maintain differences in pressures. I. E. Seal the work section from the rest of the pipe, when the habitat is pressurized.




The latest witness, said he was in the pipe and was able to move past one of the breathing cylinders, that was in the pipe.

So the obstacles were not a challenge.

They just needed more air and longer retrieval lines, to retrieve the divers and obstacles one by one.


The rescue attempt was plausible, with minimal risk, so long as the end at berth 5 remained static. I. E. Positively Isolated.

[Val]

The initial method was to drain out all liquid, and still plug. So, the plug primarily was to maintain differences in pressures. I. E. Seal the work section from the rest of the pipe, when the habitat

Source?

[sMASH]

The initial method was to drain out all liquid, and still plug. So, the plug primarily was to maintain differences in pressures. I. E. Seal the work section from the rest of the pipe, when the habitat

Source?

Witness testimony by kurban Ali.
He said the initial method from paria was to fully pump out the line. It's him that decided to just pump out enough to do the work.

[Val]

The initial method was to drain out all liquid, and still plug. So, the plug primarily was to maintain differences in pressures. I. E. Seal the work section from the rest of the pipe, when the habitat

Source?

Witness testimony by kurban Ali.
He said the initial method from paria was to fully pump out the line. It's him that decided to just pump out enough to do the work.

Yes you’re right I remember that. Although that still isn’t too clear as you can pump or air blow how much you want, the way to clean a pipe of all fluids is to pig, which wasn’t on the scope.

I believe a rescue was possible, with success rates being less for persons further in the pipe or with more damage.

[sMASH]

I gathered the impression that they were to pig the line after the pump out. But since no pump out, no need to pig.


Given that there were combustibles/toxic chemicals, I would have gone with pump pig and flush.

If the high ups say no, then pull me from. That job. I wants no part.

And sending email for discoverable proof that I was only comfortable with pump, pig, flush.

When them people bun up inside or get engulf, is not my fault.