The Religion Discussion

[brams112]

Man say he pray and get a loan oui,also he says god only helps who believe in him?i feel he is one of those people who wants people to belive in converting,if you are born a goat you can't be a sheep,you could only follow.God helps everybody who trys to help themself.

[sMASH]

bad things happen to good people, good things happen to bad people, bad things happen to bad people, good things happen to good people...

allyuh pretend to know the motives of god... go on, the atheists are more believable

at the time of misfortune assigning blame, 'is god fault. is de devil fault.' is irrelevant.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

bad things happen to good people, good things happen to bad people, bad things happen to bad people, good things happen to good people...

allyuh pretend to know the motives of god... go on, the atheists are more believable

at the time of misfortune assigning blame, 'is god fault. is de devil fault.' is irrelevant.

was just about to post this

[RBphoto]

^^^Like finding a arrow stuck in a tree and painting a target around it.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ LOL yup

[Chimera]

[Chimera]

[d spike]

so i was wondering what is your concept of god or religion.

My concept of God or Religion?

Where this is concerned, I have already gone into detail earlier in this thread... so allow me to just quote previous statements that directly and indirectly answer your question.

Well, religion (in its essence, or rather, what it should be) is the relationship between a human and that which he considers the 'divine'.

To say that God is the "Divine", the Supreme Being, or the Creator might be the short answer... but like most short answers, it is probably not enough.
I hope the following allows for clarity...

dspike what is the purpose of creation?? is it not to worship???

Most Christians should view 'worship' as the simple and true answer to this question, but it isn't really complete - as the concept of 'worship' differs. 'Worship' can easily be seen as meaning the joyous (and sometimes cacophonic) shouting and singing one sees being 'performed'... but this is just a very small part (and optional) part of what 'worship' is.
If you give a young lad a bicycle, you would be rather upset if he never rides it. We were placed here among the Creation, to be part of it. One can worship the Creator by enjoying his Creation! (To further illustrate the point I wish to make: If you had a pretty wife, how would you show her every night how glad you were to be her husband? )
So if you think about it, those who enjoy life to the fullest, and revel in their existence, are worshiping God. (They, in some way, have clearly understood PART of why we are here - and they will discover more as they journey through life... BUT IN THEIR OWN TIME.
You need to ask yourself (NOT other people... Megadoc1 had it wrong from the starting line) if you believe Someone is in charge of this whole affair. If your answer is 'yes', then you need to trust that he has a plan - and you do your part. (Meddling in his affairs by messing with other people's lives isn't your part. To explain: we are all called to walk a path. Each of us has our own path. To stop walking in order to start directing traffic, or to go and drag people off their path to walk alongside you, may not be the best thing for that person.)

Now the worship of the Creator by man is of three basic types: individual, communal and universal. Individual worship is self-explanatory, as is communal. Universal worship (can't remember the proper scholastic term, but bear with me and my failing mind) concerns the Creator's plan for us, and is the main reason for our creation. We were brought into being - whether created in an instant, or brought into creation over a period of time (evolved?), is neither here nor there - as a race that propagates itself, and hands down knowledge across generations. This has to be for a reason. We are meant to achieve something... something good and wonderful... so wonderful, that everyone will be aware of it and its meaning... and the role the Creator played in all time. This is the plan. Its achievement will be the glory of our race, and to the greater glory of him who made us, and gave us the gifts to achieve. All will realise... "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess..." (Unfortunately, many people see the end of our time here as cataclysmic - thanks to the apocalyptic idiom used by the Jews - and a sort of 'victory dance' for "us" to do over the defeated "them".)

To believe in personal salvation is all well and good, but that cannot be the be-all-and-end-all of your religion... The mantra of "I am saved!" cannot be the focal point of the human relationship with the Creator - this is a very selfish viewpoint. To have a "personal relationship with God" is a good thing, but we were put here as a people, to achieve something as a people. (One reason why suicide is wrong.) Life is beautiful, but too short for an individual to achieve God's plan (if there is one) on his own. We each go through life, meeting far too many individuals, to interact fully with each... far too many problems and ills exist for any one of us to deal with - alone. We can run to a "God" for solace, but in every example of this, we are told that the answer lies within us as a people. We are "Christ" to each other - or whatever you want to call it.

We are called as a people to achieve something wonderful, over time (hence the reason for procreation) and this is what was meant for us.
The world isn't going to end in a fit of God's anger and frustration with our inability to do what's right (that would mean the Devil won and God failed, wouldn't it?) but when we succeed in doing our part in the Great Scheme of things/"God's plan".

You were asked to do this by witnessing. It is unfortunate that folks think witnessing means talking and preaching - far from it. Witnessing means to live your life in such a way, that what you believe is seen in what you do. Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians." This was exactly what he was referring to. Remember this: 'What you are doing is speaking so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.'

For those who believe in the Christ: if Jesus wanted all men to know he was God, and to accept without any doubt that his words were true, then all he had to do was come down from the cross (exactly what the Pharisees were asking him to do - for different reasons, though).
God (if he exists as the Christians believe) wants all men to come to him, of their own free will. This means that each person must be free to make their own choosing - with no prodding or pulling. Evidence that God exists is precisely that.
Soooooo...
...if you believe in Christ, then you have to accept that EVIDENCE THAT HE "ROSE FROM THE DEAD" CAN'T EXIST (He can't allow it to). Sorry, but there it is.
To go looking for such "evidence", because you want to "reaffirm your faith" (this is called 'justification') is a poor excuse for lack of faith. If you wish to believe, then you need to ask for faith - "Lord I believe, help my unbelief".

... judgment... Don't make that mistake. Instead, say, "If I were like that and didn't change, I believe I would have a special place in hell." Reserve your ability to judge for yourself and your own actions - that is what it's for. Directing it outward warps it's ability to do good and to better oneself.

The point of our existence here may very well be to learn to care for one another... one big, ant farm experiment to prove that love is supreme... In which case, even whether you believe in God or not is not really important - as the movie "Legion" showed, it's far more important that He believes in us... and our ability to love... to pick ourselves up from the mistakes that we make, to heal, to forgive... and to continue, striving in this reality to make the choices that we will be rewarded for in the next, and make this place a better place to live in, despite the turmoil, the earthquakes, the idiots, and the over-multiplicity of choices of underwear.

[achillies]

Which one of those artists you think actually physically met Adam or Eve?

[Red Fraction]

D spike morning. I'm reading your posts, will reply later they makes sense, I'll give my opinion soon.

Smash your thinking and spikes thinking,makes good for plenty studying and examining. It's rather enjoyable,cause in learning stuff as well.

I'm so glad.
Many modern SDAs have accepted that Ellen G. White was a plagiarist. It is unfortunate that many Trinis remain decades behind the rest of the world. Try researching the work of Walter Rea and Åsmund Kaspersen... you will learn even more.

(P.S. The Great Controversy is not considered "history".)

Actually it does it and it pertains mainly to out time. The prophecy of Daniel I was writing about,it's relates directly to us right now "look at Greece for instance" such a small country yet able to cause a while upset to the world.

[Red Fraction]

Smash you make God out to be one sided and vindictive. The holy spirit is the comforter it brings wisdom knowledge and understanding. It is also a safeguard. Satan was given free reign to tempt Jesus as he pleased but,he looked to his father for strength hence he was able to overcome Satan.

I'm sure you have read the bible before where it says in Matthew 12:31,32

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

It is not a matter of god can or cannot,he ALWAYS helps even when we don't want him to. Do tlyiu think you are alive today of your own merit? We are all alive because he is alive, and there is no discharge in that war.

I did read through a vast amount of pages after the amount of crap mingled with it. So yes unlearnt alot also i learnt a person who does not accept that god is god then talking or conversing with him will amount to nothing. Because no matter what i tell him or what he says his view will not change, neither will mine.

God is not restricted we restrict him so you do the maths.

[Red Fraction]

Man say he pray and get a loan oui,also he says god only helps who believe in him?i feel he is one of those people who wants people to belive in converting,if you are born a goat you can't be a sheep,you could only follow.God helps everybody who trys to help themself.

If that's all you could of possibly gathered from what I write then i real happy for you.

[Red Fraction]

bad things happen to good people, good things happen to bad people, bad things happen to bad people, good things happen to good people...

allyuh pretend to know the motives of god... go on, the atheists are more believable

at the time of misfortune assigning blame, 'is god fault. is de devil fault.' is irrelevant.

James 1:13,15
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The trials in life are meant to make you better not bitter.

There are two forces whether you believe it or not,yes or no,light or dark,god or the devil. It still wil not,cannot,will never or negate the fact that there is one God,one Satan,god made everything,that he is everloving and is not the cause of the worlds problems.

[Red Fraction]

Spike

This!!!

So if you think about it, those who enjoy life to the fullest, and revel in their existence, are worshiping God. (They, in some way, have clearly understood PART of why we are here - and they will discover more as they journey through life... BUT IN THEIR OWN TIME.

Simply put They have not understood anything about god.


rev·el
[rev-uh l]

- verb (used without object)
1.
to take great pleasure or delight (usually fol. by in ): to revel in luxury.
to make merry; indulge in boisterous festivities.
- noun
boisterous merrymaking or festivity; revelry.
Often, revels.  an occasion of merrymaking or noisy festivity with dancing, masking, etc.

God takes NO pleasure in revelry.

"in their own time you say?"
If the 4 people who died yesterday knew they would have never made it back home alive after they "revelled" in excitement and joy.they would have never left their homes but as the good book also says "quoted for enhancing point"

Ecclesiastics 9:12 12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.

If jesus had come down off the cross the entire world would of been satans own, and humanity would be forever lost.

Jesus said behold i stand at the door and knock,if any man hear he wil answer me and I will come in unto him and sup with him.
He cannot force him self upon someone.

judgment... Don't make that mistake. Instead, say, "If I were like that and didn't change, I believe I would have a special place in hell." Reserve your ability to judge for yourself and your own actions - that is what it's for. Directing it outward warps it's ability to do good and to better oneself

So you're saying is don't tell you the truth?make it sound pleasing to the ears? When christ spoke to the disciples in John 8 he said plainly

15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

So why it is when the truth is spoken plain and without cover up,it comes across as self righteous judgement?

"even whether you believe in God or not is not really important"
Your above statement just clearly made God null and void. God sets the standard for man to meet not the other way around.some of your comments are very misleading and can lead someone who does know to fall "just saying" your belief in God is exceedingly important to ones survival and death. Who feeds you? Who clothes you? Who allows you to be able to live life to the fullest while hating him at the same time? Surely not of your own accord.

If you look at a movie and concur that is what gods nature is like, my friend you are terribly misinformed and brain washed by this world.

[Red Fraction]

Which one of those artists you think actually physically met Adam or Eve?

I believe non of them properly meets the proper physical structure of them. These men drew as they understood.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Which one of those artists you think actually physically met Adam or Eve?

good question

did the writers of the Book of Genesis meet Adam and Eve?

[AdamB]

bad things happen to good people, good things happen to bad people, bad things happen to bad people, good things happen to good people...

allyuh pretend to know the motives of god... go on, the atheists are more believable

at the time of misfortune assigning blame, 'is god fault. is de devil fault.' is irrelevant.

James 1:13,15
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, "It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."...If one cannot tempt GOD, then the devil tempting Jesus means Jesus is NOT GOD, and Jesus is NOT THE LORD?

There are two forces whether you believe it or not,yes or no,light or dark,god or the devil. It still wil not,cannot,will never or negate the fact that there is one God,one Satan,god made everything,that he is everloving and is not the cause of the worlds problems.

This topic of discussion delves into the "Pre-Decree of GOD" which is one of the six Islamic articles of faith/belief. THIS IS THE ISLAMIC POSITION OR EXPLANATION FOR YOUR PERUSAL.

GOD knows everything, and has willed two types of occurrences...the Legal/Legislative and the Universal Decree.

The Universal Decrees are the things that we cannot change, that we on an individual basis did not "intend" like our lifespan, hurricanes, earthquakes, getting in a terrible motorbike accident and recovering totally, getting a loan from the bank, being successful in our job, etc. It has been pointed out quite correctly that these things happen to both believers and non-believers in GOD.
BOTTOM LINE: WE HAVE NOT CHOICE IN THESE MATTERS BUT we have to be patient with whatever befalls us from these.

The Legislative Decrees are the compulsory Laws that GOD has set out for man to follow in which we can exercise choice like worshipping GOD, obeying HIS commands to give charity, fast, being kind to neighbours, etc.
BOTTOM LINE: FOLLOWING THESE ARE GOOD DEEDS WHICH CARRY IMMENSE REWARD AND NOT FOLLOWING ARE BAD DEEDS WHICH CARRY NEGATIVE REWARD OR PUNISHMENT IN THIS WORLD OR THE NEXT.

It has been asked "What is the difference between two persons who do the same action, one intending worship/GOD's good pleasure and the other intending nothing?" The reward of actions (deeds) are but by intention, everyone will get the reward of what they have intended.

GOD has a WILL and man has a will. We cannot sit down and not act expecting the WILL of GOD to make things happen for us...so yes, GOD helps those who help themselves but because you act and pray for something does not necessarily mean that you will be successful. Examples are like exams and recovering from injuries/illnesses (the medicine may or may not work... according to the WILL of GOD / GOD makes the medicine work).

Lastly, one might say that GOD's Decree (Predestination) overtakes man's actions or that GOD is biased by (in the future) putting some in Paradise and others in Hellfire. However, when we act we never feel compelled or forced to do anything whether good or bad. Some use the excuse for commiting sins or bad /evil actions that it is due to the WILL OF GOD...however, how often do you hear someone say that THE WILL OF GOD has forced them into doing good deeds / actions??!!!

[Red Fraction]

Which one of those artists you think actually physically met Adam or Eve?

good question

did the writers of the Book of Genesis meet Adam and Eve?

No they didn't but "men wrote as they were inspired by god"

I highly doubt they drew on inspiration by God

[Red Fraction]

Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, "It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."...If one cannot tempt GOD, then the devil tempting Jesus means Jesus is NOT GOD, and Jesus is NOT THE LORD?

Adam you spoke wrote without understanding

In order for Jesus to come in the smilitude of man and die as a man for man. He had to take on all mans weaknesses and trials and troubles inorder to overcome in sinful flesh. If he came as God then it would have been to no affect. By your outlandish comment it seems to me that your eyes overtake your critical thinking?

[RBphoto]

^^^ So as a Muslim You subscribe to the Hindu concept of Dharma and Karma.... Dharma... that we have a duty to do rightous actions, and karma, in that we reap the consequences of things we have done.

[AdamB]

^^^ So as a Muslim You subscribe to the Hindu concept of Dharma and Karma.... Dharma... that we have a duty to do rightous actions, and karma, in that we reap the consequences of things we have done.

The short answer is YES. Certain things like these have been the same since the first man to now. Why would it change?
The problem I have is when man now comes and re-invents the "wheel of GOD" to make HIM into a TRINITY, etc. There is absolutely no objective evidence to support that except what they want to twist and turn to suit their fancy. Megadoc1 said it himself "No! that's why you should learn what Christians really believe ..the christian faith is not built on the trinity ,the trinity is a concept formulated as an attempt to explain the God head".
Why not make GOD two in one or four in one? Heck, why not just leave HIM to be what HE is!!! If HE wanted us know what HE is, HE would explain it to us in HIS own words. Not what they concoct HIM to be.

[AdamB]

Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, "It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."...If one cannot tempt GOD, then the devil tempting Jesus means Jesus is NOT GOD, and Jesus is NOT THE LORD?

Adam you spoke wrote without understanding

In order for Jesus to come in the smilitude of man and die as a man for man. He had to take on all mans weaknesses and trials and troubles inorder to overcome in sinful flesh. If he came as God then it would have been to no affect. By your outlandish comment it seems to me that your eyes overtake your critical thinking?

Now where yuh get this from? Evidence?

What is the faith of the multitude of people who prededed Jesus? From Adam to Jesus? They did not accept Jesus "AS THEIR LORD", so how they going to be saved?

The real question for you, if you really THINK, is not HOW the "Jesus is GOD" theory is possible but rather WHY?

If the only only way one can understand that concept is by being possessed of the Holy Spirit, then is that the Circular Logic that these guys have been speaking of. These concepts HAVE to be reasonable / logical. If the atheists and myself can see that but you can't, then YOU have a problem, my friend.

[RBphoto]

Well, AdamB, I have asked many muslims that question, and I will give you props for the fact that you are the first one to give a sensible answer, much less agree without a long rebutal. Many throw a tantrum at the fact that I have "conjured up" concepts that are not described in the Quoran, and will quote passages till the cows come home that EVERYTHING is the will of god, and if you are suffering, it is not because of what you did, or just external circumstances (long story short, sh1t happens, or probably in the greater plan of god has a use) as we discussed before that man has no control over, but god LOVES to punish the faithful to test their mettel.


Red,
Please explain this statement to Adam, which I can't make sense of:

"your eyes overtake your critical thinking" Don't understand where you going with that.


Wait.... reads own sig....

[maj. tom]

This entire thread after page 30:

[maj. tom]

[Red Fraction]

Crossdrilled my statement simply means. He didn't think before replying to what he saw I wrote, if he did his fingers wouldn't of wrote what his eyes first saw and brain didn't comprehend.

Adamb as I said before;

I don't need to give you more evidence it's there you just won't accept it full stop.

They didn't accept him as their lord,so they gave up their own salvation.

Jesus is god what is so hard to understand

John 1:14 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

Adam because you're not able to understand that the ancient of days,god the almighty and holy spirit is the same it bothers you? 1 god 3 functions/ 1 brain many functions

Imagine how absurd it would be for God to come as himself to die for man and give understanding. "if you're the boss of a company and has to be in Venice to run your comPany. I pretty sure you will have other workers or the CEO to be here and there on your behalf not so?

So it's not reasonable or logical for one to believe in something he can't see but has all the evidence of it in his/her life?

Ah bet you if a man with a gun say he will kill you, but you have not seen the gun but know he has from dealing with him.will you not believe him knowing he has the power to act on his word ??

[AdamB]

Well, AdamB, I have asked many muslims that question, and I will give you props for the fact that you are the first one to give a sensible answer, much less agree without a long rebutal. Many throw a tantrum at the fact that I have "conjured up" concepts that are not described in the Quoran, and will quote passages till the cows come home that EVERYTHING is the will of god, and if you are suffering, it is not because of what you did, or just external circumstances (long story short, sh1t happens, or probably in the greater plan of god has a use) as we discussed before that man has no control over, but god LOVES to punish the faithful to test their mettel.

The fact is that the majority of muslims may not KNOW the details of their religion with the related proper explanation. This may not be unique to Islam but may be applicable to followers of all religions. Out of the 6 articles of faith, the belief in the Pre-Decree was the most difficult to comprehend for the companions of our prophet Muhammad. And they were considered as the most knowledgeable in the religion.
This is a very sensitive topic and many people have gone astray regarding it. Some have denied it altogether while others have gone to such extremes in affirming it that they end up denying human free will.

I don't know if Christians believe in this (Pre-Decree / Predestination) but I know a Jehovah Witness with whom I have been conversing for over 25 yrs and he expressed disbelief in it (outlandishly) while not explaining his position properly.

[sMASH]

the concept i have of god is simple. it comes from ' la illaha illallah' i.e. there is no god but the one god.


first u have to clear ur mind as to every thing that u know about spirituality, religion (yes, even your own), angels, demons, every thing associated with the worship of another being. in other words, think like an atheist. then when u analyze the world that u live in and even the wider things, just think that there was a force that started it initially.

simple. beautiful. profound.

[Red Fraction]

the concept i have of god is simple. it comes from ' la illaha illallah' i.e. there is no god but the one god.


first u have to clear ur mind as to every thing that u know about spirituality, religion (yes, even your own), angels, demons, every thing associated with the worship of another being. in other words, think like an atheist. then when u analyze the world that u live in and even the wider things, just think that there was a force that started it initially.

simple. beautiful. profound.

All what he just said in one word "FOOLISHNESS"

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ how is it foolishness?

foolishness is not being open minded enough to appreciate another person's point of view.

what makes your opinion more right than his?