The Religion Discussion

[d spike]

More on Ellen G. White...
This time, take a look at some more of her errors:
"As soon as the long fast of Christ commenced, Satan was at hand with his temptations...Satan told Christ ...that it was not necessary for him to endure this painful hunger and death from starvation" (Redemption of the Temptation of Christ, p. 37 1874 Edition).

"As soon as Christ began his fast, Satan appeared as an angel of light, and claimed to be a messenger of heaven. He told him it was not the will of God that he should suffer this pain and self denial" (Christ Our Saviour p. 45. 1 Selected Messages p.273).

"Forty days He was tempted of Satan"(Early Writings p.155).

According to these first three statements, Satan came to tempt Christ at the beginning of His forty day fast in the wilderness. This is inconsistent with Scripture which does not say that Christ was tempted for forty days, only that Satan came to tempt Him after He was very hungry.

"After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry." ... "The tempter came to him and said, 'If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread’" (Matthew 4:2-3 NIV).


"The angels of God are ever moving up and down from earth to Heaven, and from Heaven to earth. All the miracles of Christ performed for the afflicted and suffering were, by the power of God, through the ministration of angels. Christ condescended to take humanity, and thus he unites his interests with the fallen sons and daughters of Adam here below, while his divinity grasps the throne of God. And thus Christ opens the communication of man with God, and God with man. All the blessings from God to man are through the ministration of holy angels." Spirit of Prophecy Volume Two pg.76, Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald January 21, 1873 pr.16

"The Father who dwells in Me does the works" John 14:10.




"Jacob's wrong, in receiving his brother's blessing by fraud, is again brought forcibly before him, and he is afraid that God will permit Esau to take his life. In his distress he prays to God all night. An angel was represented to me as standing before Jacob, presenting his wrong before him in its true character. As the angel turns to leave him, Jacob lays hold of him, and will not let him go. He makes supplications with tears. He pleads that he has deeply repented of his sins, and the wrongs against his brother, which have been the means of separating him from his father's house for twenty years. He ventures to plead the promises of God, and the tokens of his favor to him from time to time, in his absence from his father's house. All night Jacob wrestled with the angel, making supplication for a blessing. The angel seemed to be resisting his prayer, by continually calling his sins to his remembrance, ....... Spirit of Prophecy Vol. 1, pg.118

"It was in a lonely, mountainous region, the haunt of wild beasts and the lurking place of robbers and murderers. Solitary and unprotected, Jacob bowed in deep distress upon the earth. It was midnight. All that made life dear to him were at a distance, exposed to danger and death. Bitterest of all was the thought that it was his own sin which had brought this peril upon the innocent. With earnest cries and tears he made his prayer before God. Suddenly a strong hand was laid upon him. He thought that an enemy was seeking his life, and he endeavored to wrest himself from the grasp of his assailant. In the darkness the two struggled for the mastery. Not a word was spoken, but Jacob put forth all his strength, and did not relax his efforts for a moment. While he was thus battling for his life, the sense of his guilt pressed upon his soul; his sins rose up before him, to shut him out from God. But in his terrible extremity he remembered God's promises, and his whole heart went out in entreaty for His mercy. The struggle continued until near the break of day, when the stranger placed his finger upon Jacob's thigh, and he was crippled instantly. The patriarch now discerned the character of his antagonist. He knew that he had been in conflict with a heavenly messenger, and this was why his almost superhuman effort had not gained the victory." Patriarchs and Prophets pg. 196

COMMENT: In the first version Mrs. White says that the angel was clearly seen by Jacob. The angel was calling his sins to his remembrance, and Jacob laid hold of the angel as he was about to leave. In the second version it is dark and the angel first lays his hand upon Jacob. Jacob thinks that the angel is a human enemy. In the second version not a word is spoken. Only when the angel touches his thigh and cripples him, does Jacob realize that this is a heavenly messenger, and he then clings to Him pleading for a blessing.

"It is a sin to be sick; for all sickness is the result of transgression" (Counsels on Health, p. 37).

"So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head. ... In all this, Job did not sin" (Job 2:7, 10).
It is a matter of record that Ellen White was quite sickly --does that mean she sinned quite often?


"I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.’" Testimonies for the Church Volume 1 pg.131-132 (1856); Spiritual Gifts Volume 4B pg.18

Everyone who attended the conference has since died.


"Before the flood there were immense forests. The trees were many times larger than any trees which we now see. They were of great durability. They would know nothing of decay for hundreds of years. At the time of the flood, these forests were torn up or broken down and buried in the earth. In some places large quantities of these immense trees were thrown together and covered with stones and earth by the commotions of the flood. They have since petrified and become coal, which accounts for the large coal beds which are now found. This coal has produced oil. God causes large quantities of coal and oil to ignite and burn. Rocks are intensely heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. Water and fire under the surface of the earth meet. The action of water upon the limestone adds fury to the intense heat, and causes earthquakes, volcanoes, and fiery issues. The action of fire and water upon the ledges of rocks and ore causes loud explosions which sound like muffled thunder. These wonderful exhibitions will be more numerous and terrible just before the second coming of Christ and the end of the world, as signs of its speedy destruction." The Spirit of Prophecy Volume One pg. 81

Coal does not burn under the earth’s surface. And volcanic activity is caused by the molten core magma seeping up through fissures caused by the movement of tectonic plates, not because "God causes large quantities of coal and oil to ignite and burn."


Yes Red Fraction, do I need to provide more material for your benefit?

[Red Fraction]

Spike this is for you and all who didn't know.

Nebucanezer saw a dream

A golden image

Head of gold-chest & arms of silver-thighs of bronze & legs of iron & clay.

The 4 different parts represents 4 different kingdoms. Babylon,media Persia,Greece & Rome

Head of gold; a beast like a lion with eagles wings. Meaning Babylon would establish itself as a first world empire.

Chest of arms and silver; a beast like a bear with three ribs in it's mouth. Meaning media Persia will defeat Babylon and establish itself as the 2nd world empire.

Thighs and belly of bronze;a beast like a leopard with four wings.meaning Greece would defeat media persia to establish itself as the 3rd world empire.

Feet of iron and clay;a beast with iron teeth and ten horns. Meaning Rome would defeat Greece to establish itself as the 4th world empire.

Now as I continue, as not to confuse you,apply where applicable.

A beast represents a king or kingdom.
Sea represents people or nation.

Now

A lion with an eagles wings = Babylon(nebucanezer) which is Iraq toda

Bear raised upon 1 side with 3 ribs =media Persia (darius) which today is Lydia (nw north) Egypt (sw south) & Babylon

Lepoard with four wings of a bird & four heads = greece (alexander the great) the four heads represents Greece,Lydia,Egypt & Babylon. The 4 wings represents Alexander the great's 4 army generals. Antigonus,plolemy,seleucus & cassander.

Legs of iron & clay= Rome,with huge iron teeth,devouring,braking in pieces and trampling residue with it's feet. And it had ten horns and ten toes.

10 horns represents divided Europe.The Anglo Saxons settled in England,almani in germany,
Franks in france,ostrogoths in Austria & the other tribes to the north.

3 of the 1st horns were plucked up by it's roots,in it's place a little horn arose speaking Pompidou things. And it had the eyes of a man and a mouth speaking pompous things.

This little horn that sprung up is western Europe,when Rome is being divided.

The eyes of the man in the little horn represents not Devine wisdom, but human wisdom,religious system based on mans teaching.

The kingdoms before were political powers, but the little horn was different. It was not primarily a political power,but a religious power.this power would attempt to change the very law of god.

This horn would seek to change times and laws and wear out the saints.

With that said now to explain the beasts. And their significance to the above and world.

The beasts represents kings or kingdoms.
Lion and eagles wings is commonly recognized that these two animals,are the king of beasts and king of birds respectively.a fitting description for nebucanezer and the Babylon empire.

The bear raised up on one side represents that the persians were greater and more powerful than the Medes,the three ribs represents the 3 kingdoms that the medio Persians devoured. (Babylon,Lydia & Egypt)
The lepoard represents Greece.4 symbolizes universality. Wings are synonymous with speed.the Greeks under Alexander conquered the known world at a remarkable speed.4 heads describes heads of government.after his death his empire was divided among his 4 generals. (Macedonia,Egypt,Syria & Thrace)

The 4th beast did not look like any known animal.which follows Greece. The horns represents rulers,even though the little horn begins small,it becomes the greatest of all.

[Red Fraction]

Spike clearly you dont get what happened in 1844. The people were on the point but they missed the mark.

Jesus was coming but not that exact time. no man know the time or the hour. He was moving from the holy into the most holy.but they didn't comprehend this. If they had kept their faith when the (great dissapointnent) time appointed by them for god to come. He would have surely come soon because he is god and cannot lie.

[Red Fraction]

So where are the errors spike if I may ask. What is so hard to understand in her writings.

[Red Fraction]

All sickness is a result of transgression that's a fact I don't see no error in that.

I fail to see what you try to highlight

[Red Fraction]

Most of what you write spike I've seen some before and read. But it's also in the bible and she just expounded on them. With regards to the health counsels I've never really read deep into them because it's alot. So i stick to the spirit of prophecy at present. We are almost to the end of the road and man preaching the beginning.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

something to think about
if it is a repost my god have mercy on my soul


A brief dialogue between a Brazilian theologist
Leonardo Boff and the Dalai Lama.

In a round table discussion about religion and freedom in which Dalai Lama and myself were participating at recess I maliciously, and also with interest, asked him:
“Your holiness, what is the best religion?”
I thought he would say:
“The Tibetan Buddhism” or “The oriental religions, much older than Chritianity”
Dalai Lama paused, smiled and looked me in the eyes …. which surprised me because I knew of the malice contained in my question.
He answered:
“The best religion is the one that gets you closest to God.
It is the one that makes you a better person.”

To get out of my embarassment with such a wise answer, I asked: “What is it that makes me better?”

He responded:
“Whatever makes you
more compassionate,
more sensible,
more detached,
more loving,
more humanitarian,
more responsible,
more ethical.”

“The religion that will do that for you is the best religion”

I was silent for a moment, marvelling and even today thinking of his wise and irrefutable response:
“I am not interested, my friend, about your religión or if you are religious or not.
“What really is important to me is your behaviour in front of your peers, family, work, community, and in front of the world.”
“Remember, the universe is the echo of our actions and our thoughts.”

according to megadoc, Red Fraction etc it is not by works (aka being good to people) that gets you into the kingdom of heaven, but by belief in Christ.

adamB says that Ghandi was good to all men, however unfortunately he did not submit to Allah.

It seems logical that God would prefer if I spend my time being good to others, being compassionate, more sensible, more detached, more loving, more humanitarian, more responsible, more ethical to all living things that he created, instead of putting all that aside for one second to selfishly pray to him only for my own salvation and place in heaven.

However the holy books don't seem to share the Dalai Lama's feelings on this.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Is amazing how science can apply to everything, yet apply to nothing.

science applies to everything

the definition of Science is:
systematic knowledge of the entire physical or material universe gained through observation and experimentation.

it applies to the entire universe.

You get shot 3 times to your chest,"punctured lungs etc" yet stil you live. "you will apply science to that to right"?

Someone Stabs you in your heart and it stops beating,yet still you live.let me guess science to right ?

if God stepped in to save those people, why didnt he prevent them from getting shot or stabbed in the first place?

[Humes]

To create dramatic tension, of course!

[sMASH]

alrity:

person and nature. i believe that right now, i am made up of a body and a spirit. my body is what u see, and the physical things inside it. it is also the systems inside it, like the automatic functions of breathing and heart beat, even some of the brain functions are bodily. i am the spirit inside the body, the consciousness, which decides more complicated things. the person that is me, IS the spirit.
i am the spirit that occupies this body. my body has a carnal nature. it is not me but urges or feelings that come from the body and affects/alters/adjusts my decisions. for example, i may see food or smell it and want for it. the wanting for it is not necessarily me but my body influencing me to take certain actions. animals are more controlled by this carnal nature than their conscious nature. this carnal nature are just like basic systems that remain with the body.


my concept of these things are different from others.

but i would like to try to understand what the system of the 'godhead' is. i don't have to believe it, or accept it as truth, but that would not affect my willingness to understand it.
just like the hindusim, i don't believe in their ways, but i think i understand it. the logic in their belief system is fairly sensible, just that i don't believe that it is correct.

chrisitianity is different in that what u read sometimes is different to what u read at other times.
the normal present day trinity/godhead pauline christians say somting which does not makes logical sense, and they have no sufficient explanation.

to demonstrate what i am talking about i would talk about idol worship in hinduism. on the surface, it seems that they worship idols, and many idols representing many different god.
but, these are not the gods, the idols are not even physical manifestation of the gods. they are just physical representations of the gods. they are just a physical point in time and space to focus on.
further to that, the many gods are just incarnations of different aspects of the one supreme god.
in that system, the different aspects may incarnate to achieve something different from what another aspect would logically do. like the aspect of creation is separate from the aspect of destruction, and take separate forms.

i can appreciate that, even though i do not subscribe to it. but when u talkin bout christians with their three in one thing,,, is one god but u worshiping a part of it, and that part had to dead, and come back, but is god, so he cyar really dead any way, so the death eh really ah death, so it eh really.....


i really need to see if there is more to this 'trinity' thing

[bluefete]

something to think about
if it is a repost my god have mercy on my soul


A brief dialogue between a Brazilian theologist
Leonardo Boff and the Dalai Lama.

In a round table discussion about religion and freedom in which Dalai Lama and myself were participating at recess I maliciously, and also with interest, asked him:
“Your holiness, what is the best religion?”
I thought he would say:
“The Tibetan Buddhism” or “The oriental religions, much older than Chritianity”
Dalai Lama paused, smiled and looked me in the eyes …. which surprised me because I knew of the malice contained in my question.
He answered:
“The best religion is the one that gets you closest to God.
It is the one that makes you a better person.”

To get out of my embarassment with such a wise answer, I asked: “What is it that makes me better?”

He responded:
“Whatever makes you
more compassionate,
more sensible,
more detached,
more loving,
more humanitarian,
more responsible,
more ethical.”

“The religion that will do that for you is the best religion”

I was silent for a moment, marvelling and even today thinking of his wise and irrefutable response:
“I am not interested, my friend, about your religión or if you are religious or not.
“What really is important to me is your behaviour in front of your peers, family, work, community, and in front of the world.”
“Remember, the universe is the echo of our actions and our thoughts.”

according to megadoc, Red Fraction etc it is not by works (aka being good to people) that gets you into the kingdom of heaven, but by belief in Christ.

adamB says that Ghandi was good to all men, however unfortunately he did not submit to Allah.

It seems logical that God would prefer if I spend my time being good to others, being compassionate, more sensible, more detached, more loving, more humanitarian, more responsible, more ethical to all living things that he created, instead of putting all that aside for one second to selfishly pray to him only for my own salvation and place in heaven.

However the holy books don't seem to share the Dalai Lama's feelings on this.

The Great Commandment
Mk. 12.28-34
34 ¶ But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him,

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Deut. 6.5
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it,

Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Lev. 19.18
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Lk. 10.25-28

[mamoo_pagal]

alrity:

person and nature. i believe that right now, i am made up of a body and a spirit. my body is what u see, and the physical things inside it. it is also the systems inside it, like the automatic functions of breathing and heart beat, even some of the brain functions are bodily. i am the spirit inside the body, the consciousness, which decides more complicated things. the person that is me, IS the spirit.
i am the spirit that occupies this body. my body has a carnal nature. it is not me but urges or feelings that come from the body and affects/alters/adjusts my decisions. for example, i may see food or smell it and want for it. the wanting for it is not necessarily me but my body influencing me to take certain actions. animals are more controlled by this carnal nature than their conscious nature. this carnal nature are just like basic systems that remain with the body.

hmm...........it seems you see things similar to the way eastern philosophy does

my concept of these things are different from others.

but i would like to try to understand what the system of the 'godhead' is. i don't have to believe it, or accept it as truth, but that would not affect my willingness to understand it.
just like the hindusim, i don't believe in their ways, but i think i understand it. the logic in their belief system is fairly sensible, just that i don't believe that it is correct.

chrisitianity is different in that what u read sometimes is different to what u read at other times.
the normal present day trinity/godhead pauline christians say somting which does not makes logical sense, and they have no sufficient explanation.

to demonstrate what i am talking about i would talk about idol worship in hinduism. on the surface, it seems that they worship idols, and many idols representing many different god.
but, these are not the gods, the idols are not even physical manifestation of the gods. they are just physical representations of the gods. they are just a physical point in time and space to focus on.
further to that, the many gods are just incarnations of different aspects of the one supreme god.
in that system, the different aspects may incarnate to achieve something different from what another aspect would logically do. like the aspect of creation is separate from the aspect of destruction, and take separate forms.

i can appreciate that, even though i do not subscribe to it. but when u talkin bout christians with their three in one thing,,, is one god but u worshiping a part of it, and that part had to dead, and come back, but is god, so he cyar really dead any way, so the death eh really ah death, so it eh really.....


i really need to see if there is more to this 'trinity' thing

concerning Hindus and "idol worship" people often jump on the bandwagon. "Dem does worship stone uh know, dem is devil ppl". it is good to see that you chose the intellectual approach (doh mind u doh suscribe lol). Where your spiritual experience leads you, by all means your right....... awaits the alergic to hinduism ppl

[turbohead]

sry about the post there duane, coloured the responses in my last post. wrt to the response about Allah knowing of the term trinity and it being in the Quran is true, dat is wat christianity came to when it was hijacked... Muhammed was unlettered not illiterate, he was taught by Angel Jibraeel. the ppl around the Prophet memorized the Quran and were known as hafiz al Quran. only in the time of the Caliph Abu Bakr when the muslim lost alot of Hafiz in battle it was feared that the true Quran would be lost just as the Gospel of Jesus(AS), so they issued a step to ensure its preservation and that was to record it. and further back a few pages is a history on how it was done so i not typing it over, feel free to go back and read. we cannot limit the knowledge of Allah, He knows wat we dont no.

Do you respect other religions?

wat says i dont, my whole neighborhood is multi religious and i invite all by me for eid and head on over for divali and christmas, i respect ppls views at the end of the day i know wat i need to know to be focused and to carry on in life steadfast, i dont go pounding my religion onto ppl, i let my actions show wat being a muslim is about and wit dat wisdom maybe one day someone may be interested in joining the faith..

[d spike]

It seems logical that God would prefer if I spend my time being good to others, being compassionate, more sensible, more detached, more loving, more humanitarian, more responsible, more ethical to all living things that he created, instead of putting all that aside for one second to selfishly pray to him only for my own salvation and place in heaven.

To believe in personal salvation is all well and good, but that cannot be the be-all-and-end-all of your religion... The mantra of "I am saved!" cannot be the focal point of the human relationship with the Creator - this is a very selfish viewpoint. To have a "personal relationship with God" is a good thing, but we were put here as a people, to achieve something as a people. (One reason why suicide is wrong.) Life is beautiful, but too short for an individual to achieve God's plan (if there is one) on his own. We each go through life, meeting far too many individuals, to interact fully with each... far too many problems and ills exist for any one of us to deal with - alone. We can run to a "God" for solace, but in every example of this, we are told that the answer lies within us as a people. We are "Christ" to each other - or whatever you want to call it.

We are called as a people to achieve something wonderful, over time (hence the reason for procreation) and this is what was meant for us.
The world isn't going to end in a fit of God's anger and frustration with our inability to do what's right (that would mean the Devil won and God failed, wouldn't it?) but when we succeed in doing our part in the Great Scheme of things/"God's plan".

[d spike]

So where are the errors spike if I may ask. What is so hard to understand in her writings.

Okay, so you suffer from selective illiteracy.

EGW said in Testimonies for the Church, Volume 1, p. 259, that the United States would be "...humbled into the dust" by England during the Civil War.
Was this the case?

EGW made an agreement with her dead husband to stay in touch:
"Well, said I, James you are always to stay with me now and we will work together". Is this acceptable by your standards?

In "Solemn Appeal" page 12, EGW claims that the following are a few of the diseases caused by masturbation:

...dyspepsia, spinal complaint, headache, epilepsy, impaired eyesight, palpitation of the heart, pain in the side, bleeding at the lungs, spasms of the heart and lungs, diabetes, incontinence of urine, fluor albus or whites, inflammation of the urinary organs... rheumatism, affected perspiration, consumption, asthma, catarrah, polypus of the heart, affection of the bones, fevers, ..etc. etc.

She also claims masturbation can be cured by the following:
The perpetrator was to sit in a sitz bath at as low a temperature as possible. At the same time, he was to have a hot foot bath, while applying cold cloths to his forehead. He was also to wear an abdominal bandage or wet girdle at night "to good advantage".
Do you believe this?

In Early Writings p. 37-39, EGW claimed that angels needed golden cards as gate passes to get in and out of heaven.
Do you believe this?

She also "travelled" to other planets in her visions, and also claimed to have met Enoch (more necromancy). (EGW: The Early Years Vol.1 p. 114; p.157).

She taught that certain races of men are the result of amalgamation between man and beast. (SG Vol 3, p. 64,75). Which races?

Her silliness extended to wigs as well. Any woman daring to wear one would "...lose their reason and go hopelessly insane". (Christian Mothers, # 2, p. 121).
Do you believe all this?

[d spike]

alrity:

person and nature. i believe that right now, i am made up of a body and a spirit. my body is what u see, and the physical things inside it. it is also the systems inside it, like the automatic functions of breathing and heart beat, even some of the brain functions are bodily. i am the spirit inside the body, the consciousness, which decides more complicated things. the person that is me, IS the spirit.
i am the spirit that occupies this body. my body has a carnal nature. it is not me but urges or feelings that come from the body and affects/alters/adjusts my decisions. for example, i may see food or smell it and want for it. the wanting for it is not necessarily me but my body influencing me to take certain actions. animals are more controlled by this carnal nature than their conscious nature. this carnal nature are just like basic systems that remain with the body.

Thanks for the response, sMASH! This what I was hoping for. You are also quite right about the urges influencing someone. The urges of the body exert themselves on the Will. The fact that we cannot stop them from doing so is called concupiscence.

Now, to the next step.
In a human, it is hard to conceive of the Person and Nature as being separate.
To understand the concept of the Trinity, one has to see them as being able to be separated.
God, the supreme Spirit, has Person and Nature.
Your thoughts, lad.

[hong kong phooey]

Dont know if it was covered already, too much pages to read.
But what about my dog, where would he go when he dies ?
If he goes to heaven like the rest of dogs, then when i stop by there, i will have all these dogs to take care off. Where am i going to get money to buy food for them?
Can you get tossed from heaven for stealing?
Guess is a good thing for this dog act !

[sMASH]

spike, i'm coming up snake eyes on this one.
i think i'll let my mind chew on this for a while. that is quite a concept u posed there, and it's sumting new and very different.

[dnoah]

the bible made me Stop beliveing in the trinity , i uesd to belive that god was 3 in 1 and god jesus and spirt was equal and non was better than the other but jesus said in the bible

My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]

My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]
so if u belive in the trinity that means that the bible mad a mistake or u dont belive what the bible say

im challenging any christian to respond

[d spike]

spike, i'm coming up snake eyes on this one.
i think i'll let my mind chew on this for a while. that is quite a concept u posed there, and it's sumting new and very different.

Just clarify something for me please. What is it that is "new and very different" to you?
That God has both Person and Nature? (Who He is and What He is?)
Or that they must be considered as separate?

Thank you for responding honestly.

The first one is self-evident.
Our problem with dealing with these concepts is that the only Spiritual beings we come into contact with regularly are other people... so we only have one concept (Person and Nature in one solid form) but this concept is based on an organic life-form, a Created and tangible organism... a Creature. Subconsciously, folks tend to think of God as just a bigger type of ourselves! Stronger, older, immortal... but basically a human.
Have we progressed from the Greek or Norse mythology type of thinking? Stronger men who wielded magic? We like to believe so, but apparently not. We just don't THINK about it.
This is why it is ridiculous to pound many atheists/agnostics for not believing... all they did was stop and REALLY think about what it is that they were supposed to believe in... and they just couldn't accept the concept of God they were taught.
Most atheists just had the WRONG concept of God. (Good grief, most believers have the wrong concept of God, it's just that they are satisfied with not knowing or understanding... or they just don't even bother to think.)
Many atheists DO believe in God - they just don't consider it as God because it doesn't fit their concept (a wrong one, remember) of God - most of them are actually agnostics without realizing it.

I find more enjoyment discussing (and that's DISCUSSING mind you, not snapping at each others' throats, kill-the-infidel sort of thing that has filled so much of this thread) religion with "atheists" than believers... for many believers refuse to shake the wine-jug of their thoughts, for fear of causing the dregs that lie undisturbed on the bottom to rise, and create noisy questions in the peace of their faith.
Atheists can quite happily take part in such a discussion, not fearing the lees in their cup... they have no problem gazing into the abyss to see what they might see. Many believers stay far from the edge, within their comfort zone, not wishing to peer over the edge, in case they DON'T see what they always hoped was there.

[sMASH]

the problem is as u just said, i have never really thought about it like that. all i got before was that the father is the father the son is the son and the spook is spook

it takes some time to sink in

[d spike]

the bible made me Stop beliveing in the trinity , i uesd to belive that god was 3 in 1 and god jesus and spirt was equal and non was better than the other but jesus said in the bible

My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]

My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]
so if u belive in the trinity that means that the bible mad a mistake or u dont belive what the bible say

im challenging any christian to respond

Don't hold your breath, laddie.
First of all, it's Sunday. Most of the christian sort are in some sort of building, rattling tambourines, making joyful noises and frightening the crap out of any little critter that lives above the ceiling...
Secondly, writing in an excessively large font doesn't ensure that they respond to you either... believe me, I've tried.

Look closely at what you are asking.
Most of the folks you want to answer your question don't even know themselves why they believe what they believe. (I could give you some very good reasons, but that would cause a repeat of some of the more acrimonious pages of this thread...)
Don't expect a fanatic to discuss something with you that would clearly end up with him having more questions than you. His faith brings him extreme comfort (hence the fanaticism) and to shake that would affect his entire coping system... he won't do that. Insecurity is a helluva thing.
The most you will get is a bucketful of scriptural quotes to explain to you to let God mind his own business, remembering to tithe often... someone will probably invite you to a meeting where they heal rather infirm folks...
...or they will ignore you. (Why do you think this thread is almost 300 pages long? Questions are asked repeatedly, and ignored with much religious fervour.)

Now look closely at what you have based your question on:

the bible made me Stop beliveing in the trinity

So you read the bible and formed an opinion.
This thread has had more of its share of people who read the bible and came away with ideas vastly different to each other. Why do you think there are so many Christian churches?
A chief of a stone-age tribe found in Borneo said a remarkable thing when questioned about the multiple groups of missionaries his tribe enjoyed visits from:
Our religion is superior to the white man's religion.
The white man has only one god, so they have to fight among themselves for him. We have many gods, so we can share them out among the people.

i uesd to belive that... god jesus and spirt was equal and non was better than the other

Like I said earlier, most folks have the wrong concept - you were no different.
Don't get me wrong, lad. Questioning your faith is the only way for it to grow. Place it under a glass case and it will just be a withered thing you display proudly - you'd be surprised how many came on this thread with their withered thing, snarled at those who asked why it was under glass, then stalked off, upset because it didn't fill anyone with awe and wonder.
If you have a concept of God that enables you to have a relationship with him, then you are on the right track. Perhaps one day you will be able to see further... then I hope you will still have that ability to adopt a new concept to suit your awareness of reality - rather than shield your eyes like so many others.

Cheers

[Red Fraction]

D spike morning. I'm reading your posts, will reply later they makes sense, I'll give my opinion soon.

I'm on work and my phones charging.

And I'm a 7th day adventist so I church on a Saturday not sunday

Smash your thinking and spikes thinking,makes good for plenty studying and examining. It's rather enjoyable,cause in learning stuff as well.

[mamoo_pagal]

D spike morning. I'm reading your posts, will reply later they makes sense, I'll give my opinion soon.

I'm on work and my phones charging.

And I'm a 7th day adventist so I church on a Saturday not sunday

Smash your thinking and spikes thinking,makes good for plenty studying and examining. It's rather enjoyable,cause in learning stuff as well.

kudos!!

[megadoc1]

d spike can you compose your building posts on the trinity into one post to keep most of us updated as you go along? thanks! I would be grateful

[d spike]

d spike can you compose your building posts on the trinity into one post to keep most of us updated as you go along? thanks! I would be grateful

Why should I?
This is the problem with this generation.
What is so wrong with attempting to recall that which is past?
Why must everything be instant? Just add water and stir?
Everything that is worth having also merits effort on one's part to attain it.

Everybody wants their needs fulfilled right away... no effort required.
That results in less respect for those who have earned their acquisition of knowledge and for the knowledge itself.
Taking time to learn something gave it time to sink in, allow you to become truly aware of what it means, and how it is applied... in other words, it allowed one to acquire wisdom.
Now that we are swamped with instant access to information, folks can no longer differentiate between knowledge and wisdom.

Go look for it, megadoc. I hope you find what you are really looking for.

[Red Fraction]

Is amazing how science can apply to everything, yet apply to nothing.

science applies to everything

the definition of Science is:
systematic knowledge of the entire physical or material universe gained through observation and experimentation.

it applies to the entire universe.

You get shot 3 times to your chest,"punctured lungs etc" yet stil you live. "you will apply science to that to right"?

Someone Stabs you in your heart and it stops beating,yet still you live.let me guess science to right ?

if God stepped in to save those people, why didnt he prevent them from getting shot or stabbed in the first place?

There are reasons Duane,why God doesn't step in to save any and everybody. "this is from my observation"

1.he can't help an individual who does not believe he exists.
2.the individual has grieved the holy spirit,thus allowing for Satan to have full sway.which always ends in death or serious injury.
3.God allows us to be tested in many ways "he does not tempt us because he cannot"satan usually takes his place by portraying himself to be God,and deceives many and causes them to fall.

There was a time I was all for not doing the right thing. I lived as I pleased and what I wanted. Moms would send me to church,I would make the block and go back home and sleep.
I always wondered why I must serve god aren't I already doing that? I pray in the morning etc what more he want.
But with age brings reason and gradually I gravitated toward church and says to myself "is about time i do the right thing"
After two bike accidents "walk away from the second one with a graze on forehead & arm and shift the healing bone from the 1st accident,after a man pull out on me while I doing about 100mph "give or take" and hit me.I get up normal normal.7 days after I was back to work.

Next instance I wanted an a31 cefiro ,but banks don't go for cars over 5yrs "and if so you have to walk with 50% of the total" "no finance for cars so old as well" .'I pray bout it, then walk in the bank 3 days later, i walk out the bank with 63,000 cash pay only 5000 security "the car come out in 1989 to eh" get insurance,normal normal without even a question or a issue with it being too old etc.

An army man who in the army came in to buy a van, he had everything and never get through they blank him."I would guess he didn't have enough faith to believe he would get through.

Just thought I'd share that with y'all

I think that's where faith was exercised cause I believed I would get through.

[d spike]

D spike morning. I'm reading your posts, will reply later they makes sense, I'll give my opinion soon.

Smash your thinking and spikes thinking,makes good for plenty studying and examining. It's rather enjoyable,cause in learning stuff as well.

I'm so glad.
Many modern SDAs have accepted that Ellen G. White was a plagiarist. It is unfortunate that many Trinis remain decades behind the rest of the world. Try researching the work of Walter Rea and Åsmund Kaspersen... you will learn even more.

(P.S. The Great Controversy is not considered "history".)

[sMASH]

red F, u getting buss up with that one here and now.... JOB.

satan was given free reign over him, not so? he was still faithful to god, not so? so if the holy spirit cannot help who doesn't subscribe, that would mean he would help only whom subscribes, and help them all the time, not so?

god can, and may help whom he pleases. it is withing his power, and his control. he is not restricted.


if u all bothered to read the thread from page one, u would benefit from the strains that people like blue, and mega and i had to go through, and the pressure spike went through to enlighten.

if u say that he is not restricted, then say say so. use the english language correctly and precisely.

[dnoah]

d spike
i must say, u earned my respect with just one post. what u said made sense and i am new to trinituner so will take some of your advice but you also said

most folks have the wrong concept - you were no different.

which is true so i was wondering what is your concept of god or religion.