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The Religion Discussion

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby RBphoto » May 17th, 2012, 5:21 pm

New sig guys... jus saying.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby d spike » May 17th, 2012, 5:51 pm

amazon wrote:But what i would like to ask is whats is the trinity in christianity?

To understand the concept of the Trinity (PLEASE NOTE I DIDN'T SAY "ACCEPT!!!!!") there are certain theological concepts one must understand first... and not everyone is aware of them - which is why even many Christians don't fully understand - and thus can't properly explain - the Trinity concept.

The last time this came up, I refused to provide an explanation - simply because of how I was asked. I was of the opinion that the query was not asked out of a desire to know the answer, but to harass a non-Christian. My arguments are based on Logic. The questioner denied the purpose (and superiority) of logic, so my explanation would not have really helped him in any way.

I trust this query of yours is asked out of a desire to know what exactly is this weird-sounding idea about... it will take a while, as I have to make sure my writing is understood by you - as well as anyone else who might be interested in such a topic.

The first concepts you have to be able to wrap your mind around are:
the concept of Person;
and the concept of Nature.

The concept of Person is who you are, and Nature is what you are.

The next concept you have to appreciate is what a Spirit is.
(Too many Christians can only define a Spirit as "something you can't see or touch".)
A Spirit is a being that knows and loves, and has power.

If you wish me to continue, just say so.
Consider these statements, compare them to what you believe... then respond - remember to use logic, not faith.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby d spike » May 17th, 2012, 6:01 pm

crossdrilled wrote:New sig guys... jus saying.
AdamB wrote:the only good hindu boys who lime and don't consume alcohol are the boys who like boys

Alright... so he had a bad experience with some former non-drinking friends of his, and got his feelings hurt (and probably other things as well)...
It happens. Accept that he would quite rightly be toting some heavy baggage (among it a few years' supply of Preparation H, no doubt)... and give him room to vent.

Ease the lad up, nah. When you all rile him up, he doesn't get a chance to cool down and respond to the questions I have been asking him for a while now.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby buzz » May 17th, 2012, 6:23 pm

d spike wrote:I would like those who claim belief in God to dwell on this for a moment.
This implies heavily that there are matters concerning the divine that are beyond us mortals.
If this is accepted as truth, then why are there arguments about matters concerning God? Clearly, there are some things that might be revealed to a people to help them better understand and accept the divine.
Why is "knowing the name of God" an issue? Doesn't a believer accept that there are things of God that not all will understand?
An old Arabic saying is that Allah has 99 names; but only the camel knows the hundredth... thus explaining the supercilious nature of the camel. (It seems this attitude is not confined to the camel alone :lol: )


Mr Spike sir, may I have permission to redistribute this excerpt ?

Though a believer in an omniscient and omnipresent existence, I could not agree more and could not have said this any better.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Chimera » May 17th, 2012, 6:32 pm

lol @ the level adam talking on now

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby RBphoto » May 17th, 2012, 6:33 pm

d spike wrote:Alright... so he had a bad experience with some former non-drinking friends of his, and got his feelings hurt (and probably other things as well)...
It happens. Accept that he would quite rightly be toting some heavy baggage (among it a few years' supply of Preparation H, no doubt)... and give him room to vent.


He may choose to vent through the port of least resistance :lol:

Yuh on ah roll today spikey...

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby buzz » May 17th, 2012, 6:55 pm

btw crossdrilled
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby d spike » May 17th, 2012, 7:33 pm

buzz wrote:
d spike wrote:I would like those who claim belief in God to dwell on this for a moment.
This implies heavily that there are matters concerning the divine that are beyond us mortals.
If this is accepted as truth, then why are there arguments about matters concerning God? Clearly, there are some things that might be revealed to a people to help them better understand and accept the divine.
Why is "knowing the name of God" an issue? Doesn't a believer accept that there are things of God that not all will understand?
An old Arabic saying is that Allah has 99 names; but only the camel knows the hundredth... thus explaining the supercilious nature of the camel. (It seems this attitude is not confined to the camel alone :lol: )


Mr Spike sir, may I have permission to redistribute this excerpt ?

Feel free, lad. Just make sure that somewhere along the way, you distribute it in the direction of AdamB... that way he might actually read what I wrote...

buzz wrote:Though a believer in an omniscient and omnipresent existence, I could not agree more and could not have said this any better.

Why did you say "though"?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby turbohead » May 17th, 2012, 8:08 pm

sry about the post there duane, coloured the responses in my last post. wrt to the response about Allah knowing of the term trinity and it being in the Quran is true, dat is wat christianity came to when it was hijacked... Muhammed was unlettered not illiterate, he was taught by Angel Jibraeel. the ppl around the Prophet memorized the Quran and were known as hafiz al Quran. only in the time of the Caliph Abu Bakr when the muslim lost alot of Hafiz in battle it was feared that the true Quran would be lost just as the Gospel of Jesus(AS), so they issued a step to ensure its preservation and that was to record it. and further back a few pages is a history on how it was done so i not typing it over, feel free to go back and read. we cannot limit the knowledge of Allah, He knows wat we dont no.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby sMASH » May 17th, 2012, 8:47 pm

SPIKE, HOW YUH GOH LEAVE MEH WITH THAT CLIFF HANGER JUSSS SOOO, BAI????

even self if yuh have to pm meh the explanation, juss doh leave meh out.



i don't fear new knowledge, i want it. i feel i have a good appreciation of hinduism in general to accept them as they are. but christianity, and the trinity, that needs to be explained.


i cyar believe spike willing after soo long to offer the explanation of the trinity and allyuh focusing on adamb and his homosexual boys.

meh neurons itchin to process that info, dude.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Red Fraction » May 17th, 2012, 8:49 pm

Dizzy.

Weather you accept the claims of the bible or not, ALL SHALL be judged by the word of God.

Revelation 20:11-15
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And i saw the dead both small and great,stand before God;and the books were opened:and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them. And they were judged every man according to their works.

Dspike

A Christian who does not understand the concept of God being 3 in 1 does not know where he stands.

One God three functions. Father,son and holy spirit.
Holy spirit brings wisdom and understanding
Son reconciles mankind to the father
God the father

Rev.1:17,18

And when i saw him i fell at his feet as dead.and he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me fear not;I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth,and was dead;and behold,I am alive forever more,amen, and have the keys of death and hell.

Matt.28:19

Go ye therefore,and teach all nations,baptizing them in the name of the father,and of the son,and of the holy ghost.

Jhon.8:13-19

The pharises therefore said unto him,thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
Jesus answered and said unto them,thou I bear record of myself,yet my record is true:for i know whence i came,and wither I go;but ye cannot tell whence I come wither i go.
Ye judge after the flesh;i judge no man.
And yet If I judge, my judgement is true:for I am not alone,but I and my father that sent me.
It is also written in your law,that the testimony of two men is true.
I am one that bear witness of myself,and the father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Then said they unto him,where is thy father? Jesus answered, ye neither know me,or my father: if ye had known me,ye should have know my father also.

John 10:37,38

If I do not the works of my father,believe me not.
But if I do,though ye believe not me,believe my works:that ye may know,and believe,that the father is in me and I in him.

Dizzy "written for future reference"

Rom 7:1
Know yet not brethren,(for I speak of them that know the law), how it hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Rom 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Spike
Rom 8:10,11
But why dost thou judge thy brother? Or why dost thou set at norght thy brother? For we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ.
For it is written,as I live,saith the lord,every knee shall bow to me and every tongue shall confess to God

James 2:12
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby chasemeifyoucan » May 17th, 2012, 8:51 pm

turbohead wrote:sry about the post there duane, coloured the responses in my last post. wrt to the response about Allah knowing of the term trinity and it being in the Quran is true, dat is wat christianity came to when it was hijacked... Muhammed was unlettered not illiterate, he was taught by Angel Jibraeel. the ppl around the Prophet memorized the Quran and were known as hafiz al Quran. only in the time of the Caliph Abu Bakr when the muslim lost alot of Hafiz in battle it was feared that the true Quran would be lost just as the Gospel of Jesus(AS), so they issued a step to ensure its preservation and that was to record it. and further back a few pages is a history on how it was done so i not typing it over, feel free to go back and read. we cannot limit the knowledge of Allah, He knows wat we dont no.


Do you respect other religions?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Red Fraction » May 17th, 2012, 8:58 pm

Picture 1 candle with 3 flames

Though it be 3 flames YET, is it stil one candle.
Thats a fairly simple way of explaining the God head

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby sMASH » May 17th, 2012, 9:08 pm

one flame can exist with out the others. one can provide the same functions as the others. they necessity or the purpose of having the parts is not explained.

i can imagine three flames, an egg with the yoke, white and shell, bicycle with frame, wheels, and seat. these are all irrelevant to understanding, and more suited to the accepting.
the problem is not visualizing three things, the problem is the functional advantage of the three

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby chasemeifyoucan » May 17th, 2012, 9:12 pm

Red Fraction wrote:Picture 1 candle with 3 flames

Though it be 3 flames YET, is it stil one candle.
Thats a fairly simple way of explaining the God head


1 candle cannot have 3 flames, however, 3 candles may share 1 flame.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby sMASH » May 17th, 2012, 9:53 pm

yes, if there are three wicks, sufficiently spaced so the flames don't join together.


every time i ask for an explanation of the trinity, i don't get it. the best attempts i got were rudimentary analogies for some object with three parts. i need to understand how it works 'mechanically', if i may.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Russellgold » May 17th, 2012, 10:04 pm

Intrestin stuff..
enside

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Kasey » May 17th, 2012, 10:31 pm

Red Fraction wrote:Dizzy.

Weather you accept the claims of the bible or not, ALL SHALL be judged by the word of God.

Weather is one thing I always accept bro, WHETHER it rain, sun, or snow, I am all for it.

But tell me, where in the Ramayan does it say "All shall be judged by god"? I think you mean all will pay for his/her sins through Karma?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby original ravi b » May 17th, 2012, 10:57 pm

Kasey wrote:
Red Fraction wrote:Dizzy.

Weather you accept the claims of the bible or not, ALL SHALL be judged by the word of God.

Weather is one thing I always accept bro, WHETHER it rain, sun, or snow, I am all for it.

But tell me, where in the Ramayan does it say "All shall be judged by god"? I think you mean all will pay for his/her sins through Karma?


Karma running things.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby amazon » May 17th, 2012, 11:08 pm

d spike wrote:
amazon wrote:But what i would like to ask is whats is the trinity in christianity?

To understand the concept of the Trinity (PLEASE NOTE I DIDN'T SAY "ACCEPT!!!!!") there are certain theological concepts one must understand first... and not everyone is aware of them - which is why even many Christians don't fully understand - and thus can't properly explain - the Trinity concept.

The last time this came up, I refused to provide an explanation - simply because of how I was asked. I was of the opinion that the query was not asked out of a desire to know the answer, but to harass a non-Christian. My arguments are based on Logic. The questioner denied the purpose (and superiority) of logic, so my explanation would not have really helped him in any way.

I trust this query of yours is asked out of a desire to know what exactly is this weird-sounding idea about... it will take a while, as I have to make sure my writing is understood by you - as well as anyone else who might be interested in such a topic.

The first concepts you have to be able to wrap your mind around are:
the concept of Person;
and the concept of Nature.

The concept of Person is who you are, and Nature is what you are.

The next concept you have to appreciate is what a Spirit is.
(Too many Christians can only define a Spirit as "something you can't see or touch".)
A Spirit is a being that knows and loves, and has power.

If you wish me to continue, just say so.
Consider these statements, compare them to what you believe... then respond - remember to use logic, not faith.


i understand thus far,so is the spirt like a soul?
and how did the trinity come abt in christianity?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby shogun » May 17th, 2012, 11:34 pm

d spike wrote:An old Arabic saying is that Allah has 99 names; but only the camel knows the hundredth... thus explaining the supercilious nature of the camel. (It seems this attitude is not confined to the camel alone :lol: )



Duane, you really should allocate more space to sigs, eh know.

[img]Pouty-face.jpg[img]

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Red Fraction » May 17th, 2012, 11:56 pm

Karma has NOTHING to do with JUDGEMENT

Ecclestiasties chp 9 vs

3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them

Chp 12

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Ill say it again you understand not because, spiritual things of god cannot be understood by carnal man,it I'd foolishness unto him.

The holy trinity of the god head CANNOT function wherein;one doing the job of all or the other.

Can your eye hold a pen? Can your brain walk? Can your heart read a sign? Nonbut each one has it's own function, yet is your body one who member.

God the father CANNOT DO what GOD the son did,cause he is GOD
Same way GOD the holy spirit CANNOT die for mankind

GOD is a GOD of order

Jesus said I do all things through him that sent me.

Also he said; I go to prepare a place for you,I I will send the holy spirit which is the comforter,who will draw you into all truth.

Touch me not for I have not yet accended to my father.

3 separate functions ONE GOD

The father through which the son has all power over the world
The son through which all things are done through the father
The holy spirit which draws men to God.

As spoken of in 1 John where he says "there is a sin unto death I wisk ye pray not for it"
Grieve the holy spirit which is the unforgivable sin. Meaning you have said to God "I need you not in my life leave me be to myself"

As Jesus said "behold i stand at the door and knock, if any man hear and let me in, I will come in and sup with him"

Here's an extrat of the spirit of prophecy it's quite a read but worth it "it will save your soul"

atan in Heaven, before his rebellion, was a high and exalted angel, next in honor to God’s dear Son. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing a powerful intellect. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. A special light beamed in his countenance, and shone around him brighter and more beautiful than around the other angels; yet Jesus, God’s dear Son, had the pre-eminence over all the angelic host. He was one with the Father before the angels were created. Satan was envious of Christ, and gradually assumed command which devolved on Christ alone. – {1SP 17.1}
The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence. The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son he had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was his Son to work in union with himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. His Son would carry out his will and his purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The Father’s will would be fulfilled in him. – {1SP 17.2}

“Until the great decisive blow shall be struck, our efforts against commandment-keepers must be untiring. We must be present at all their gatherings. In their large meetings especially our cause will suffer much, and we must exercise great vigilance, and employ all our seductive arts to prevent souls from hearing the truth and becoming impressed by it. – {4SP 340.1}
“I will have upon the ground, as my agents, men holding false doctrines mingled with just enough truth to deceive souls. I will also have unbelieving ones present, who will express doubts in regard to the Lord’s messages of warning to his church. Should the people read and believe these admonitions, we could have little hope of overcoming them. But if we can divert their attention from these warnings, they will remain ignorant of our power and cunning, and we shall secure them in our ranks at last. God will not permit his words to be slighted with impunity. If we can keep souls deceived for a time, God’s mercy will be withdrawn, and he will give them up to our full control. – {4SP 340.2}
“We must cause distraction and division. We must destroy their anxiety for their own souls, and lead them to criticise, to judge, and to accuse and condemn one another, and to cherish selfishness and enmity. For these sins, God banished us from his presence; and all who follow our example will meet a similar fate.” – {4SP 340.3}
The Scriptures declare that upon one occasion, when the angels of God came to present themselves before the Lord, Satan came also among them, not to bow before the Eternal King, but to further his own malicious designs against the righteous. With the same object he is in attendance when men assemble for the worship of God. Though hidden from sight, he is working with all diligence to control the minds of the worshipers. Like a skillful general, he lays his plans beforehand. As he sees the messenger of God searching the Scriptures, he takes note of the subject to be presented to the people. Then he employs all his cunning and shrewdness to so control circumstances that the message may not reach those whom he is deceiving on that very point. The one who most needs the warning will be urged into some business transaction which requires his presence, or will by some other means be prevented from hearing the words that might prove to him a savor of life unto life. – {4SP 341.1}

When God sends to men warnings so important that they are represented as proclaimed by holy angels flying in the midst of heaven, he requires every person endowed with reasoning powers to heed the message. The fearful judgments denounced against the worship of the beast and his image, [Revelation 14:9-12.] should lead all to a diligent study of the prophecies to learn what the mark of the beast is, and how they are to avoid receiving it. But the masses of the people turn away their ears from hearing the truth, and are turned unto fables. The apostle Paul declared, looking down to the last days, “The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine.” [2 Timothy 4:3.] That time has fully come. The multitudes do not want Bible truth, because it interferes with the desires of the sinful, world-loving heart; and Satan supplies the deceptions which they love. – {4SP 413.1}

he doctrine of natural immortality has prepared the way for modern Spiritualism. If the dead are admitted to the presence of God and holy angels, and privileged with knowledge far exceeding what they before possessed, why should they not return to the earth to enlighten and instruct the living? How can those who believe in man’s consciousness in death reject what comes to them as divine light communicated by glorified spirits? Here is a channel regarded as sacred, through which Satan works for the accomplishment of his purposes. The fallen angels who do his bidding appear as messengers from the spirit world. While professing to bring the living into communication with the dead, Satan exercises his bewitching influence upon their minds. – {4SP 370.1}
He has power even to bring before men the appearance of their departed friends. The counterfeit is perfect; the familiar look, the words, the tone, are reproduced with marvelous distinctness. Many are comforted with the assurance that their loved ones are enjoying the bliss of Heaven; and without suspicion of danger, they give ear to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. – {4SP 370.2}
When they have been led to believe that the dead actually return to communicate with them, Satan causes those to appear who went into the grave unprepared. They claim to be happy in Heaven, and even to occupy exalted positions there; and thus the error is widely taught, that no difference is made between the righteous and the wicked. The pretended visitants from the world of spirits sometimes utter cautions and warnings which prove to be correct. Then, as confidence is gained, they present doctrines which directly undermine faith in the Scriptures. With an appearance of deep interest in the well-being of their friends on earth, they insinuate the most dangerous errors. The fact that they state some truths, and are able at times to foretell future events, gives to their statements an appearance of reliability; and their false teachings are accepted by the multitudes as readily, and believed as implicitly, as if they were the most sacred truths of the Bible. The law of God is set aside, the Spirit of grace despised, the blood of the covenant counted an unholy thing. The spirits deny the divinity of Christ, and place even the Creator on a level with themselves. Thus under a new disguise the great rebel still carries forward his warfare against God, begun in Heaven, and for nearly six thousand years continued upon the earth. – {4SP 370.3}

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Red Fraction » May 18th, 2012, 12:16 am

Taken from the spirit of prophecy vol 4
THE COMING CONFLICT

he greatest and most favored nation upon the earth is the United States. A gracious Providence has shielded this country, and poured upon her the choicest of Heaven’s blessings. Here the persecuted and oppressed have found refuge. Here the Christian faith in its purity has been taught. This people have been the recipients of great light and unrivaled mercies. But these gifts have been repaid by ingratitude and forgetfulness of God. The Infinite One keeps a reckoning with the nations, and their guilt is proportioned to the light rejected. A fearful record now stands in the register of Heaven against our land; but the crime which shall fill up the measure of her iniquity is that of making void the law of God. – {4SP 398.1}
Between the laws of men and the precepts of Jehovah will come the last great conflict of the controversy between truth and error. Upon this battle we are now entering,—a battle not between rival churches contending for the supremacy, but between the religion of the Bible and the religion of fable and tradition. The agencies which will unite against truth and righteousness in this contest are now actively at work. – {4SP 398.2}
God’s holy word, which has been handed down to us at such a cost of suffering and blood, is but little valued. The Bible is within the reach of all, but there are few who really accept it as the guide of life. Infidelity prevails to an alarming extent, not in the world merely, but in the church. Many have come to deny doctrines which are the very pillars of the Christian faith. The great facts of creation as presented by the inspired writers, the fall of man, the atonement, and the perpetuity of the law of God, are practically rejected by a large share of the professedly Christian world. Thousands who pride themselves upon their wisdom and independence regard it an evidence of weakness to place implicit confidence in the Bible, and a proof of superior talent and learning to cavil at the Scriptures, and to spiritualize and explain away their most important truths. Many ministers are teaching their people, and many professors and teachers are instructing their students, that the law of God has been changed or abrogated; and they ridicule those who are so simple-minded as to acknowledge all its claims. – {4SP 398.3}
In rejecting the truth, men reject its Author. In trampling upon the law of God, they deny the authority of the Lawgiver. It is as easy to make an idol of false doctrines and theories as to fashion an idol of wood or stone. Satan leads men to conceive of God in a false character, as having attributes which he does not possess. A philosophical idol is enthroned in the place of Jehovah; while the true God, as he is revealed in his word, in Christ, and in the works of creation, is worshiped by but few. Thousands deify nature, while they deny the God of nature. Though in a different form, idolatry exists in the Christian world today as verily as it existed among ancient Israel in the days of Elijah. The God of many professedly wise men, of philosophers, poets, politicians, journalists,—the God of polished fashionable circles, of many colleges and universities, even of some theological institutions,—is little better than Baal, the sun-God of Phenicia. – {4SP 399.1}
No error accepted by the Christian world strikes more boldly against the authority of Heaven, none is more directly opposed to the dictates of reason, none is more pernicious in its results, than the modern doctrine, so rapidly gaining ground, that God’s law is no longer obligatory upon men. Every nation has its laws, which command respect and obedience; and has the Creator of the heavens and the earth no law to govern the beings he has made? Suppose that prominent ministers were publicly to teach that the statutes which govern our nation and protect the rights of its citizens were not obligatory,—that they restricted the liberties of the people, and therefore ought not to be obeyed; how long would such men be tolerated in the pulpit? But is it a graver offense to disregard the laws of States and nations than to trample upon those divine precepts which are the foundation of all government? When the standard or righteousness is set aside, the way is open for the prince of evil to establish his rule in the earth. – {4SP 400.1}
It would be far more consistent for nations to abolish their statutes, and permit the people to do as they please, than for the Ruler of the universe to annul his law, and leave the world without a standard to condemn the guilty or justify the obedient. Would we know the result of making void the law of God? The experiment has been tried. Terrible were the scenes enacted in France when atheism became the controlling power. It was then demonstrated to the world that to throw off the restraints which God has imposed is to accept the rule of the cruelest of tyrants. – {4SP 400.2}
Wherever the divine precepts are set aside, sin ceases to appear sinful, or righteousness desirable. Those who refuse to submit to the government of God are wholly unfitted to govern themselves. Through their pernicious teachings, the spirit of insubordination is implanted in the hearts of children and youth, who are naturally impatient of control; and a lawless, licentious state of society results. While scoffing at the credulity of those who obey the requirements of God, the multitudes eagerly accept the delusions of Satan. They give the rein to lust, and practice the sins which called down judgments upon the heathen. – {4SP 401.1}
Let the restraint imposed by the divine law be wholly removed, and human laws would soon be disregarded. Because God forbids dishonest practices, coveting, lying, and defrauding, men are ready to trample upon his statutes as a hindrance to their worldly prosperity; but the results of banishing these precepts would be such as they do not anticipate. If the law were not binding, why should any fear to transgress? Property would no longer be safe. Men would obtain their neighbor’s possessions by violence; and the strongest would become richest. Life itself would not be respected. Those who disregard the commandments of God sow disobedience to reap disobedience. The marriage vow would no longer stand as a sacred bulwark to protect the family. He who had the power, would, if he desired, take his neighbor’s wife by violence. The fifth commandment would be set aside with the fourth. Children would not shrink from taking the life of their parents, if by so doing they could obtain the desire of their corrupt hearts. The civilized world would become a horde of robbers and assassins; and peace, rest, and happiness would be banished from the earth. – {4SP 401.2}
Already the doctrine that men are released from obedience to God’s requirements has weakened the force of moral obligation, and opened the flood-gates of iniquity upon the world. Lawlessness, dissipation, and corruption are sweeping in upon us like an overwhelming tide. In the family, Satan is at work. His banner waves, even in professedly Christian households. There is envy, evil surmising, hypocrisy, estrangement, emulation, strife, betrayal of sacred trusts, indulgence of lust. The whole system of religious principles and doctrines, which should form the foundation and frame-work of social life, seems to be a tottering mass, ready to fall to ruin. The vilest of criminals, when thrown into prison for their offenses, are often made the recipients of gifts and attentions, as if they had attained an enviable distinction. The greatest publicity is given to their character and crimes. The press publish the revolting details of vice, thus initiating others into the practice of fraud, robbery, and murder; and Satan exults in the success of his hellish schemes. The infatuation of vice, the wanton taking of life, the terrible increase of intemperance and iniquity of every order and degree, should arouse all who fear God, to inquire what can be done to stay the tide of evil. – {4SP
Courts of justice are corrupt. Rulers are actuated by desire for gain, and love of sensual pleasure. Intemperance has beclouded the faculties of many, so that Satan has almost complete control of them. Jurists are perverted, bribed, deluded. Drunkenness and revelry, passion, envy, dishonesty of every sort, are represented among those who administer the laws. “Justice standeth afar off; for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.” – {4SP 403.1}
The iniquity and spiritual darkness that prevailed under the supremacy of Rome were the inevitable result of her suppression of the Scriptures; but where is to be found the cause of the wide-spread infidelity, the rejection of the law of God, and the consequent corruption, under the full blaze of gospel light in an age of religious freedom? Now that Satan can no longer keep the world under his control by withholding the Scriptures, he resorts to other means to accomplish the same object. To destroy faith in the Bible serves his purpose as well as to destroy the Bible itself. By introducing the belief that God’s law is not binding, he as effectually leads men to transgress as if they were wholly ignorant of its precepts. And now, as in former ages, he has worked through the church to further his designs. As the religious organizations of the day have refused to listen to unpopular truths plainly brought to view in the Scriptures, they have sown broadcast the seeds of skepticism. Clinging to the papal error of natural immortality and man’s consciousness in death, they reject the only defense against the delusions of Spiritualism. Nor is this all. As the claims of the fourth commandment are urged upon the people, popular teachers find that the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath is there enjoined; and as the only way to free themselves from a duty which they are unwilling to perform, they declare that the law of God is no longer binding. Thus they cast away the law and the Sabbath together. As the work of Sabbath reform extends, this rejection of the divine law to avoid the claims of the fourth commandment will become well-nigh universal. Upon those religious leaders whose teachings have opened the door to infidelity, to Spiritualism, and to contempt for God’s holy law, rests a fearful responsibility for the iniquity that exists in the Christian world. – {4SP 403.2}
Yet this very class put forth the claim that the fast-spreading corruption is largely attributable to the desecration of the so-called “Christian Sabbath,” and that the enforcement of Sunday observance would greatly improve the morals of society. Combining the temperance reform with the Sunday movement, they represent themselves as laboring to promote the highest interests of society; and those who refuse to unite with them are denounced as the enemies of temperance and reform. But the fact that a movement to establish error is connected with a work which is in itself good, is not an argument in favor of the error. We may disguise poison by mingling it with wholesome food, but we do not thereby change its nature. On the contrary, it is rendered more dangerous, as it is more likely to be taken unawares. It is one of Satan’s devices to combine with falsehood just enough truth to give it plausibility. The leaders of the Sunday movement may advocate reforms which the people need, principles which are in harmony with the Bible, yet while there is with these a requirement which is contrary to God’s law, his servants cannot unite with them. Nothing can justify them in setting aside the commandments of God for the precepts of men. – {4SP 404.1}
Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of Spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. Protestantism will yet stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of Spiritualism; she will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, our country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience. – {4SP 405.1}
Spiritualism is now changing its form, veiling some of its more objectionable and immoral features, and assuming a Christian guise. Formerly it denounced Christ and the Bible; now it professes to accept both. The Bible is interpreted in a manner that is attractive to the unrenewed heart, while its solemn and vital truths are made of no effect. A God of love is presented; but his justice, his denunciations of sin, the requirements of his holy law, are all kept out of sight. Pleasing, bewitching fables captivate the senses of those who do not make God’s word the foundation of their faith. Christ is as verily rejected as before; but Satan has so blinded the eyes of the people that the deception is not discerned. – {4SP 405.2}
As Spiritualism assimilates more closely to the nominal Christianity of the day, it has greater power to deceive and ensnare. Satan himself is converted, after the modern order of things. He will appear in the character of an angel of light. Through the agency of Spiritualism, miracles will be wrought, the sick will be healed, and many undeniable wonders will be performed. And as the spirits will profess faith in the Bible, and express regard for Sunday, their work will be accepted as a manifestation of divine power. – {4SP 405.3}
The line of distinction between professing Christians and the ungodly is now hardly distinguishable. Church-members love what the world loves, and are ready to join with them; and Satan determines to unite them in one body and thus strengthen his cause by sweeping all into the ranks of Spiritualism. Papists who boast of miracles as a certain mark of the true church, will be readily deceived by this wonder-working power; and Protestants, having cast away the shield of truth, will also be deluded. Papists, Protestants, and worldlings will alike accept the form of godliness without the power, and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world, and the ushering in of the long-expected millennium. – {4SP 406.1}
Through Spiritualism, Satan appears as a benefactor of the race, healing the diseases of the people, and professing to present a new and more exalted system of religious faith; but at the same time he works as a destroyer. His temptations are leading multitudes to ruin. Intemperance dethrones reason; sensual indulgence, strife, and bloodshed follow. Satan delights in war; for it excites the worst passions of the soul, and then sweeps into eternity its victims steeped in vice and blood. It is his object to incite the nations to war against one another; for he can thus divert the minds of the people from the work of preparation to stand in the day of God. – {4SP 406.2}
Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields his creatures, and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world has shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord does just what he has declared that he would do, he withdraws his blessings from the earth, and removes his protecting care from those who are rebelling against his law, and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others, and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. – {4SP 407.1}
While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, is Satan exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon the inhabitants of the world. The beasts of the field will groan, and the earth will languish. – {4SP 407.2}
And then the great deceiver will persuade men that those who serve God are causing these evils. The class that have provoked the displeasure of Heaven will charge all their troubles upon the faithful few whom the Lord has sent to them with messages of warning and reproof. It will be declared that the nation is offending God by the violation of the Sunday-Sabbath, that this sin has brought calamities which will not cease until Sunday observance shall be strictly enforced, and that those who present the claims of the fourth commandment, thus destroying reverence for Sunday, are troublers of the nation, preventing its restoration to divine favor and temporal prosperity. Thus the accusation urged of old against the servant of God will be repeated, and upon grounds equally well established. “And it came to pass when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel? And he answered, I have not troubled Israel, but thou and thy father’s house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the Lord, and thou hast followed Baalim.” [1 Kings 18:17, 18.] As the wrath of the people shall be excited by false charges, they will pursue a course toward God’s ambassadors very similar to that which apostate Israel pursued toward Elijah. – {4SP 408.1}
The miracle-working power manifested through Spiritualism will exert its influence against those who choose to obey God rather than men. Messages will come from the spirits declaring that God has sent them to inform the rejecters of Sunday that they are in error, and that the laws of the land should be obeyed as the law of God. They will lament the great wickedness in the world, and second the testimony of religious teachers, that the degraded state of morals is caused by the desecration of Sunday. Great will be the indignation excited against all who refuse to accept their testimony. – {4SP 409.1}
Those who honor the Bible Sabbath will be denounced as enemies of law and order, as breaking down the moral restraints of society, causing anarchy and corruption, and calling down the judgments of God upon the earth. Their conscientious scruples will be pronounced obstinacy, stubbornness, and contempt of authority. They will be accused of disaffection toward the government. Ministers who deny the obligation of the divine law will present from the pulpit the duty of yielding obedience to the civil authorities as ordained of God. In legislative halls and courts of justice, commandment-keepers will be censured and misrepresented. A false coloring will be given to their words; the worst possible construction will be put upon their motives. – {4SP 409.2}
The Protestant churches have rejected the clear, scriptural arguments in defense of God’s law, and they long to stop the mouths of those whose faith they cannot overthrow by the Bible. Though they blind their own eyes to the fact, they are now adopting a course which will lead to the persecution of those who conscientiously refuse to do what the rest of the Christian world are doing, and acknowledge the claims of the papal Sabbath. – {4SP 409.3}
The dignitaries of Church and State will unite to bribe, persuade, or compel all classes to honor the Sunday. The lack of divine authority will be supplied by oppressive enactments. Political corruption is destroying love of justice and regard for truth, and in order to secure public favor, legislators will yield to the popular demand for a law enforcing Sunday observance. Liberty of conscience, which has cost this nation so great a sacrifice, will no longer be respected. In the soon-coming conflict we shall see exemplified the prophet’s words: “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” [Revelation 12:17.] – {4SP 410.1}
Our land is in jeopardy. The time is drawing on when its legislators shall so abjure the principles of Protestantism as to give countenance to Romish apostasy. The people for whom God has so marvelously wrought, strengthening them to throw off the galling yoke of popery, will by a national act give vigor to the corrupt faith of Rome, and thus arouse the tyranny which only waits for a touch to start again into cruelty and despotism. With rapid steps are we already approaching this period. When Protestant churches shall seek the support of the secular power, thus following the example of that apostate church, for opposing which their ancestors endured the fiercest persecution, then will there be a national apostasy which will end only in national ruin. – {4SP 410.2}

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Duane 3NE 2NR » May 18th, 2012, 12:46 am

If God has given guidelines on owning slaves, who is man to say slavery is now immoral?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Red Fraction » May 18th, 2012, 3:19 am

Duane 3NE 2NR wrote:If God has given guidelines on owning slaves, who is man to say slavery is now immoral?


Because of the stubborn and hardness of the former generations hearts, God gave them over to be captured and taken into bondage. Have you not heard "ancient isreal & the 70 years in Babylon,the isrealites and the king of egypt"

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Red Fraction » May 18th, 2012, 3:39 am

SCIENCE & REVELATION

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.” The mightiest intellects of earth CANNOT COMPREHEND God. If he reveals Himself at all to men, it is by veiling Himself in MYSTERY. His ways are PAST finding out. Men must be ever searching, ever learning; and yet there is an infinity beyond. Could they fully understand the purposes, wisdom, love, and character of God, they would not BELIEVE in Him as an infinite being, and trust Him with the interests of their souls. If they could fathom Him, he would no longer stand supreme. – {3SM 306.1}
There are men who THINK they have made wonderful discoveries in SCIENCE. They QUOTE the OPINIONS of learned men as though they considered them INFALLIBLE and teach the deductions of science as truths that cannot be controverted. And the Word of God, which is given as a lamp to the feet of the world-weary traveler, is judged by this standard, and pronounced wanting. – {3SM
306.2}
The scientific research in which these men have indulged has proved a SNARE to them. It has CLOUDED their minds, and they have DRIFTED into SKEPTISIM. They have a consciousness of power; and instead of looking to the Source of all wisdom, they triumph in the smattering of knowledge they may have gained. They have exalted their HUMAN WISDOM in opposition to the wisdom of the great and MIGHTY GOD, and have DARED to enter into controversy with Him. The word of inspiration pronounces these men “FOLS." – {3SM 306.3


The Fruitage of Skepticism
God has permitted a flood of light to be poured upon the world in discoveries in science and art; but when professedly scientific men lecture and write upon these subjects from a merely human standpoint, they will assuredly come to wrong conclusions. The greatest minds, if not guided by the Word of God in their research, become bewildered in their attempts to investigate the relations of science and revelation. The Creator and his works are beyond their comprehension; and because they cannot explain these by natural laws, Bible history is considered unreliable. Those who doubt the reliability of the records of the Old and New Testaments, will be led to go a step farther, and doubt the existence of God; and then, having let go their anchor, they are left to beat about upon the rocks of infidelity. – {3SM 307.1}
Moses wrote under the guidance of the Spirit of God, and a correct theory of geology will never claim discoveries that cannot be reconciled with his statements. The idea that many stumble over, that God did not create matter when he brought the world into existence, limits the power of the Holy One of Israel. – {3SM 3

Test Science by God’s Word
Test Science by God’s Word—Many, when they find themselves incapable of measuring the Creator and his works by their own imperfect knowledge of science, doubt the existence of God and attribute infinite power to nature. These persons have lost the simplicity of faith, and are removed far from God in mind and spirit. There should be a settled faith in the divinity of God’s Holy Word. The Bible is not to be tested by men’s idea of science, but science is to be brought to the test of this unerring standard. When the Bible makes statements of facts in nature, science may be compared with the Written Word, and a correct understanding of both will always prove them to be in harmony. One does not contradict the other. All truth, whether in nature or revelation, agrees. – {3SM 307.3}
Scientific research will open to the minds of the really wise vast fields of thought and information. They will see God in his works, and will praise Him. He will be to them first and best, and the mind will be centered upon Him. Skeptics, who read the Bible for the sake of caviling, through ignorance claim to find decided contradictions between science and revelation. But man’s measurement of God will never be correct. The mind unenlightened by God’s Spirit will ever be in darkness in regard to his power. – {3SM 308.1}
Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Those who have not vital union with God are swayed one way and another; they put men’s opinions in the front, and God’s Word in the background. They grasp human assertions, that judgment against sin is contrary to God’s benevolent character, and, while dwelling upon infinite benevolence, try to forget that there is such a thing as infinite justice. – {3SM 308.2}
When we have right views of the power, greatness and majesty of God, and of the weakness of man, we shall despise the assumptions of wisdom made by earth’s so-called great men, who have none of Heaven’s nobility in their characters. There is nothing for which men should be praised or exalted. There is no reason why the opinions of the learned should be trusted, when they are disposed to measure divine things by their own perverted conceptions. Those who serve God are the only ones whose opinion and example it is safe to follow. A sanctified heart quickens and intensifies the mental powers. A living faith in God imparts energy; it gives calmness and repose of spirit, and strength and nobility of character. – {3SM 308.3}

God Can Work Above his Laws
God Can Work Above his Laws—Men of science think that with their enlarged conceptions they can comprehend the wisdom of God, that which he has done or can do. The idea largely prevails that he is bounded and restricted by his own laws. Men either deny and ignore his existence, or think to explain everything, even the operations of his Spirit upon the human heart, by natural laws; and they no longer reverence his name or fear his power. While they think they are gaining everything, they are chasing bubbles, and losing precious opportunities to become acquainted with God. They do not believe in the supernatural, not realizing that the Author of nature’s laws can work above those laws. They deny the claims of God, and neglect the interests of their own souls; but his existence, his character, his laws, are facts that the reasoning of men of the highest attainments cannot overthrow. – {3SM 308.4}
The pen of inspiration thus describes the power and majesty of God: “Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance? ... Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing. And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering. All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.... It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in” (Isaiah 40:12-22). – {3SM 309.1}

God’s Character Interpreted by his Works
God’s Character Interpreted by his Works—Nature is a power, but the God of nature is unlimited in power. His works interpret his character. Those who judge Him from his handiworks, and not from the suppositions of great men, will see his presence in everything. They behold his smile in the glad sunshine, and his love and care for man in the rich fields of autumn. Even the adornments of the earth, as seen in the grass of living green, the lovely flowers of every hue, and the lofty and varied trees of the forest, testify to the tender, fatherly care of our God, and to his desire to make his children happy. – {3SM 309.2}
The power of the great God will be exerted in behalf of those that fear Him. Listen to the words of the prophet: “Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength. Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall. But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint” (Verses 28-31). – {3SM 310.1}
In the Word of God many queries are raised that the most profound scholars can never answer. Attention is called to these subjects to show us how many things there are, even among the common things of everyday life, that finite minds, with all their boasted wisdom, can never fully comprehend. – {3SM 310.2}

Science an Aid to Understand God
Science an Aid to Understand God—All the systems of philosophy devised by men have led to confusion and shame when God has not been recognized and honored. To lose faith in God is terrible. Prosperity cannot be a great blessing to nations or individuals, when once faith in his Word is lost. Nothing is truly great but that which is eternal in its tendencies. Truth, justice, mercy, purity, and the love of God, are imperishable. When men possess these qualities, they are brought into close relationship to God, and are candidates for the highest exaltation to which the race can aspire. They will disregard human praise, and will be superior to disappointment, weariness, the strife of tongues, and contentions for supremacy. – {3SM 310.3}
He whose soul is imbued with the Spirit of God will learn the lesson of confiding trust. Taking the Written Word as his counselor and guide, he will find in science an aid to understand God, but he will not become exalted, till, in his blind self-conceit, he is a fool in his ideas of God.—The Signs of the Times, March 13, 1884. – {3SM 310.4}
The precepts and principles of religion are the first steps in the acquisition of knowledge, and lie at the very foundation of true education. Knowledge and science must be vitalized by the Spirit of God in order to serve the noblest purposes. The Christian alone can make the right use of knowledge. Science, in order to be fully appreciated, must be viewed from a religious standpoint. Then all will worship the God of science.”—Manuscript 30, 1896. – {3SM 311.1}

God the Designer and Creator
We need more to be shut in the audience with God. There is need of guarding our own thoughts. We are surely living amid the perils of the last days. We must walk before God meekly, with deep humility; for it is only such that will be exalted. – {3SM 311.2}
O how little man can comprehend the perfection of God, his omnipresence united with his almighty power. A human artist receives his intelligence from God. He can only fashion his work in any line to perfection from materials already prepared for his work. In his finite power he could not create and make his materials to serve his purpose if the Great Designer had not been before him, giving him the very improvements first in his imagination. – {3SM 311.3}
The Lord God commands things into being. He was the first designer. He is not dependent on man, but graciously invites man’s attention, and cooperates with him in progressive and higher designs. Then man takes all the glory to himself, and is extolled by his fellow men as a very remarkable genius. He looks no higher than man. The one first cause is forgotten.... – {3SM 311.4}
I am afraid we have altogether too cheap and common ideas. “Behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee.” Let not any one venture to limit the power of the Holy One of Israel. There are conjectures and questions in regard to God’s work. “Put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.” Yes, angels are the ministers of God upon the earth, doing his will. – {3SM 311.5}

All Things Stood Up Before Him at his Voice
All Things Stood Up Before Him at his Voice—In the formation of our world, God was not beholden to preexistent substance or matter. For the “things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” On the contrary, all things, material or spiritual, stood up before the Lord Jehovah at his voice, and were created for his own purpose. The heavens and all the host of them, the earth and all things that are therein, are not only the work of his hand, they came into existence by the breath of his mouth. – {3SM 312.1}
The Lord had given evidence that by his power he could in one short hour dissolve the whole frame of nature. He can turn things upside down, and destroy the things that man has built up in his most firm and substantial manner. He “removeth the mountains,” he “overturneth them in his anger,” he “shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.” “The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.” “The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence.”—Manuscript 127, 1897. – {3SM 312.2}

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby sMASH » May 18th, 2012, 7:14 am

to read all dat bai........?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Kasey » May 18th, 2012, 7:40 am

Red Fraction wrote:Karma has NOTHING to do with JUDGEMENT

Ecclestiasties chp 9 vs



can u kindly point me to where i said that it did?

Also,
what is this 'Ecclestiasties'??????????? Where in the Ramayan is this?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby slimshiney » May 18th, 2012, 9:09 am

Red Fraction wrote:Karma has NOTHING to do with JUDGEMENT

Ecclestiasties chp 9 vs



Ecclesiastes..it is my friend....a book in the bible.....

oh n btw..it isn't the best idea to argue religion based on logic (even all the short story justification u bring).....many religions are based on faith...and quite frankly...logic kills it....... Faith was never meant to be logical...how about taking an approach based on your personal life.......let us know how it worked for you........any demons acted up when you're around?....any doctors seemed confused when someone/you been diagnosed with sickness and its now gone?
Last edited by slimshiney on May 18th, 2012, 9:40 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Dizzy28
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Dizzy28 » May 18th, 2012, 9:13 am

Red Fraction wrote:Dizzy.

Weather you accept the claims of the bible or not, ALL SHALL be judged by the word of God.

Revelation 20:11-15
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And i saw the dead both small and great,stand before God;and the books were opened:and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them. And they were judged every man according to their works.

Dspike

A Christian who does not understand the concept of God being 3 in 1 does not know where he stands.

One God three functions. Father,son and holy spirit.
Holy spirit brings wisdom and understanding
Son reconciles mankind to the father
God the father

Rev.1:17,18

And when i saw him i fell at his feet as dead.and he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me fear not;I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth,and was dead;and behold,I am alive forever more,amen, and have the keys of death and hell.

Matt.28:19

Go ye therefore,and teach all nations,baptizing them in the name of the father,and of the son,and of the holy ghost.

Jhon.8:13-19

The pharises therefore said unto him,thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
Jesus answered and said unto them,thou I bear record of myself,yet my record is true:for i know whence i came,and wither I go;but ye cannot tell whence I come wither i go.
Ye judge after the flesh;i judge no man.
And yet If I judge, my judgement is true:for I am not alone,but I and my father that sent me.
It is also written in your law,that the testimony of two men is true.
I am one that bear witness of myself,and the father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Then said they unto him,where is thy father? Jesus answered, ye neither know me,or my father: if ye had known me,ye should have know my father also.

John 10:37,38

If I do not the works of my father,believe me not.
But if I do,though ye believe not me,believe my works:that ye may know,and believe,that the father is in me and I in him.

Dizzy "written for future reference"

Rom 7:1
Know yet not brethren,(for I speak of them that know the law), how it hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Rom 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Spike
Rom 8:10,11
But why dost thou judge thy brother? Or why dost thou set at norght thy brother? For we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ.
For it is written,as I live,saith the lord,every knee shall bow to me and every tongue shall confess to God

James 2:12
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty



Red Fraction,

Have you ever been to heaven or spoken to anyone that has? How are you sure that a Christian God reigns over Dominion and Buddha is not sitting up there right now? I respect your belief but there is absolutely nothing in the world to prove you are right except a book which was written by man.

Similarly there is nothing in the world to prove Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism or any Religion as being the "real religion". Faith and Belief trumps all reason.

I willing to take my chance and face judgement before your supposed God having never accepted him.
Are you willing to face my God having never accepted him as well? Because as sure as you believe in your God I believe equally in mine.

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