The Religion Discussion

[bluefete]

The one common denominator amongst all people is DEATH! There is no escape from that. Science cannot even explain the process.

All the rational thinkers can only try to give a rational explanation.

Why do people and animals die?????????????

If there is no God, why do we not live forever????????

I mean, if God is not real then man should be all powerful and should be able to control the natural order of things.

Why is this not so???? Is it that the natural world is also subject to God?

[mamoo_pagal]

It will be interesting if someone could interview Patrice Muamba and find out if he remembers anything when he was dead for "78" minutes. Like, which God did he see when he was dead?

That would verify whose religion is right, right?

But then the Bible says that the dead know nothing and are unconscious, like in a deep sleep.

if that person says that god is the way islam teaches, would u be willing to revert then?

he can say what ever he wants, that does not mean it is true and there is still no way to prove it, so it amounts to nothing by way of proof.

what makes it the best way?

cause my book says so...

reminds me of:

Jesus loves me! this I know,
For the Bible tells me so.
Little ones to Him belong;
they are weak but He is strong.

Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so.

Jesus loves me! loves me still,
'tho I'm very weak and ill,
that I might from sin be free,
bled and died upon the tree.

Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so.

Jesus loves me! He who died
heaven's gate to open wide;
He will wash away my sin,
let His little child come in.

Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so.

Jesus loves me! He will stay
close beside me all the way.
Thou hast bled and died for me,
I will henceforth live for Thee.

Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so.

Jesus loves me when I'm good.
When I do the things I should.
Jesus loves me when I'm bad,
but it makes him oh so sad.

Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so.

Nice song BTW........still love it

[MG Man]

The one common denominator amongst all people is DEATH! There is no escape from that. Science cannot even explain the process.

All the rational thinkers can only try to give a rational explanation.

Why do people and animals die?????????????

If there is no God, why do we not live forever????????

I mean, if God is not real then man should be all powerful and should be able to control the natural order of things.

Why is this not so???? Is it that the natural world is also subject to God?

that's the best you can do?
we wear out and stop functioning....duuuuuuuuuuuh
and if god is not real, why would u automatically assume man would be all powerful????
The absence of a divine creator changes nothing of the nature of man, or nature

[bluefete]

The one common denominator amongst all people is DEATH! There is no escape from that. Science cannot even explain the process.

All the rational thinkers can only try to give a rational explanation.

Why do people and animals die?????????????

If there is no God, why do we not live forever????????

I mean, if God is not real then man should be all powerful and should be able to control the natural order of things.

Why is this not so???? Is it that the natural world is also subject to God?

that's the best you can do?


we wear out and stop functioning....duuuuuuuuuuuh
and if god is not real, why would u automatically assume man would be all powerful????
The absence of a divine creator changes nothing of the nature of man, or nature

So this nature over which we have no control "decrees' that man must "wear out" and die!!

Oh yeah. I forgot. Natural selection. Nope, Wrong one. Only the strong survive. But they have to "dead' too.

So we who just appeared here by "magic' cannot even control how we are leaving here.

But God does not exist. yeah, right!!

[mamoo_pagal]

It will be interesting if someone could interview Patrice Muamba and find out if he remembers anything when he was dead for "78" minutes. Like, which God did he see when he was dead?

That would verify whose religion is right, right?

But then the Bible says that the dead know nothing and are unconscious, like in a deep sleep.

if that person says that god is the way islam teaches, would u be willing to revert then?

he can say what ever he wants, that does not mean it is true and there is still no way to prove it, so it amounts to nothing by way of proof.

so in other words NO "spiritual" experience can ever be justified as it as an experience that is unique to the person who it experiences it (who knows if they are honest or not). Spiritual experiences can't really be proven so I guess all amounts to nothing?

I am confused: holy spirit, jinn, jumbie, angel, demon,atman,paratman.
No proof--->Nothing?

[AdamB]

hey science enthusiasts,
who created science and its laws? science does not (necessarily) contradict religion...how many planets orbit the sun...ten years ago compared to now? what was known as scientific fact is now what? do scientists now believe in the unseen?

check out the scientific miracles in the Qur'aan http://www.quranandscience.com/ and http://abdurrahman.org/qurantafseer/bib ... ience.html

fella you for real?
I read the one where the koran supposedly ties back to the big bang theory.........the 'link' is so vague it could be applied to anything.............not to mention, it's widely accepted that the universe will unlikely end in a a big crunch, aka fold into a scroll, but more likely keep on expanding until it becomes dark emptiness........

Hey Pal,
Thanks for taking the time to check it out. It may seem vague but the those who understand the Arabic language will appreciate the depth of the meaning.


When Allah rolls up the heavens:

The Messenger of Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “Allah will roll up the heavens on the Day of Resurrection, then He will hold them in His Right Hand and will say, ‘I am the King. Where are the tyrants? Where are the arrogant ones?’” [Sahih Muslim]

Commentary:
Allah will grasp the earth in His Hand on the Day of Resurrection, and will roll up the heavens in His Right Hand as many ayaat and ahadith (such as the above hadith) inform us of.

Allah says:
They made not a just estimate of Allah such as is due to Him. And on the Day of Resurrection the whole of the earth will be grasped by His Hand and the heavens will be rolled up in His Right Hand. Glorified is He, and High is He above all that they associate as partners with Him! (Quran 39:67)

And (remember) the Day when We shall roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books, as We began the first creation, We shall repeat it, (it is) a promise binding upon Us. Truly, We shall do it. (Quran 21:104)

This seizing of the earth and rolling up of the heavens will happen after Allah causes all creatures to die. Allah will then say, ” I am the King, where are the kings of the earth, where are the tyrants?

Where are the arrogant ones.”

On this day, Allah alone has sovereignty, when there will no longer be any others making such claims, when every king and his kingdom will have disappeared, when every arrogant tyrant and his dominion will have vanished, and their claims would have disappeared with them.

And Allah knows best!


Quran on the Expansion of the Universe

Allah says:
(And We have built the heavens with Our own hands; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.) (Quran 51:47)

[bluefete]

so in other words NO "spiritual" experience can ever be justified as it as an experience that is unique to the person who it experiences it (who knows if they are honest or not). Spiritual experiences can't really be proven so I guess all amounts to nothing?

I am confused: holy spirit, jinn, jumbie, angel, demon,atman,paratman.
No proof--->Nothing?

Well long ago we used to talk about demon possession but in this enlightened age thst does not exist anymore. People now suffer from multiple "indemnity" personality disorder. This is a phenomenon where one can exhibit the presence of many different personalities at different times and remember none of them thereafter. But this does not prove the existence of Satan because Satan like God does not exist. Right!!!!!!!!!!!

[AdamB]

one day...every knee shall bow, and every tongue shalt confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.......amen

Ignorance / denial is bliss!!!

One day that bubble will be burst...and then what ...regret? It will then be too late to repent!!

BTW Jesus (on him be peace) said : "None of those who call me 'Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."[Matthew 7:21]

[mamoo_pagal]

hey science enthusiasts,
who created science and its laws? science does not (necessarily) contradict religion...how many planets orbit the sun...ten years ago compared to now? what was known as scientific fact is now what? do scientists now believe in the unseen?

check out the scientific miracles in the Qur'aan http://www.quranandscience.com/ and http://abdurrahman.org/qurantafseer/bib ... ience.html

fella you for real?
I read the one where the koran supposedly ties back to the big bang theory.........the 'link' is so vague it could be applied to anything.............not to mention, it's widely accepted that the universe will unlikely end in a a big crunch, aka fold into a scroll, but more likely keep on expanding until it becomes dark emptiness........

Hey Pal,
Thanks for taking the time to check it out. It may seem vague but the those who understand the Arabic language will appreciate the depth of the meaning.


When Allah rolls up the heavens:

The Messenger of Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “Allah will roll up the heavens on the Day of Resurrection, then He will hold them in His Right Hand and will say, ‘I am the King. Where are the tyrants? Where are the arrogant ones?’” [Sahih Muslim]

Commentary:
Allah will grasp the earth in His Hand on the Day of Resurrection, and will roll up the heavens in His Right Hand as many ayaat and ahadith (such as the above hadith) inform us of.

Allah says:
They made not a just estimate of Allah such as is due to Him. And on the Day of Resurrection the whole of the earth will be grasped by His Hand and the heavens will be rolled up in His Right Hand. Glorified is He, and High is He above all that they associate as partners with Him! (Quran 39:67)

And (remember) the Day when We shall roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books, as We began the first creation, We shall repeat it, (it is) a promise binding upon Us. Truly, We shall do it. (Quran 21:104)

This seizing of the earth and rolling up of the heavens will happen after Allah causes all creatures to die. Allah will then say, ” I am the King, where are the kings of the earth, where are the tyrants?

Where are the arrogant ones.”

On this day, Allah alone has sovereignty, when there will no longer be any others making such claims, when every king and his kingdom will have disappeared, when every arrogant tyrant and his dominion will have vanished, and their claims would have disappeared with them.

And Allah knows best!


Quran on the Expansion of the Universe

Allah says:
(And We have built the heavens with Our own hands; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.) (Quran 51:47)

ok from the little I have been exposed to towards Islam, please corerct me if I am worng. Dosen't Allah have no shape or form?? He is the formless, so where does he get the hands from? How will we know it is him?

[MG Man]

one day...every knee shall bow, and every tongue shalt confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.......amen

Ignorance / denial is bliss!!!

One day that bubble will be burst...and then what ...regret? It will then be too late to repent!!

BTW Jesus (on him be peace) said : "None of those who call me 'Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."[Matthew 7:21]

seriously, what makes your book so right and the bible so wrong?
seriously?

[AdamB]

ok from the little I have been exposed to towards Islam, please corerct me if I am worng. Dosen't Allah have no shape or form?? He is the formless, so where does he get the hands from? How will we know it is him?

Mamoo,
We don't say what ALLAH (the MOST HIGH) is, we only attribute to HIM what HE has informed us in HIS book (Quran) and what HE had revealed to HIS messenger (Muhammad-peace be upon him)...If HE says that HE has a hand or 2 hands then he does...we do not liken/compare them to ours/creation. HE says that HE has a face and a foot as well but we DO NOT say that HE has a body or is material or flesh like the creation.

HIS being and HIS attribute are according to HIS majesty!!!

That's why I said before that we have to estimate HIM with the proper estimation HE deserves...because humans "make not a just estimate of HIM". Then it becomes like insulting HIM!!

HE is the MASTER / OWNER of everything that exists and we are HIS SLAVES...whether we obey, disobey, believe or deny/disbelieve...we need to humble ourselves!!

[AdamB]

one day...every knee shall bow, and every tongue shalt confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.......amen

Ignorance / denial is bliss!!!

One day that bubble will be burst...and then what ...regret? It will then be too late to repent!!

BTW Jesus (on him be peace) said : "None of those who call me 'Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."[Matthew 7:21]

seriously, what makes your book so right and the bible so wrong?
seriously?

Because they forget the BIG PICTURE and focus on the STORM IN THE TEACUP.
THE BIG PICTURE:

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS: The first 2 commandments given to Moses (peace be upon him):
And God spoke all these words, saying: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
1.You shall have no other gods before me.

2.You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

These say/mean:
1. Worship nothing except THE ONE TRUE GOD.
2. Do not worship HIM via idols, images, etc.

Jesus was "in the earth beneath"...so do not bow down to him because he is NOT GOD or THE SON OF GOD!! Think about it, why does GOD need a son? to help HIM? Then HE would be imperfect or incapable of executing some part of what HE wants to do.

Our view is that HE is PERFECT in all HIS names and attributes!! Perfectly capable to execute HIS WILL.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ so what do you say to a Hindu who's holy books do not talk about Moses and the 10 commandments?

[AdamB]

^ so what do you say to a Hindu who's holy books do not talk about Moses and the 10 commandments?

Ironic!...There's a 10 Commandments Link at the top of this page...

I would ask him to read it, question it's authenticity, look at differing views in translations, use of idols, concept of GOD, purpose of life, life after death / reincarnation, freedom of choice.

I would direct him to seek out a knowledgeable muslim who would be better able to answer his questions about his religion and holy books. Unfortunately i am not that person. Maybe to look at some material from Dr Zakir Naik of India, he has a lot of material (lectures/videos) on the topic of comparative religion.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ that's the same thing you said above though

I think what MG Man is asking you and what I was asking megadoc1 is more or less the same thing and you both answered using circular logic: "my book is right because it says so in my book"

If that is correct then the Vedas, Gita, Tipitaka, Torah etc etc also fall into that category. It is safe to say that every single religious text claims IT is right, true and everything else is fake. it would be pretty pointless to have a religious text state that it is not the word of God.

[MG Man]

I would ask him to read it, question it's authenticity, look at differing views in translations, use of idols, concept of GOD, purpose of life, life after death / reincarnation, freedom of choice.

why would u ask a hindu to question the authenticity of his book?
You clearly do not understand the roles of idols in hindu religion yet you condem it......
you mention freedom of choice, no other religion gives more freedom of choice than hinduism
heck they tell you if u eh like what we say, feel free to shop around man...we won't cast u into hell.....it's a very open minded religion
one of the fundamentals is that they do not condemn or convert.......after all, who am I to tell you your way is wrong........
but what I would really like to see is a proper chronology of islam before the revelation of the koran
you guys claim islam was always there etc...........show me the historical and chronological evidence, without relying on the old testament gibberish, since we can safely say based on your views, that the bible is mostly poppycock anyway
from my own personal observations and discussions with my muslim family, imams etc, it seems the Old Testament is the only resource you guys can draw upon...............
and while you're at it, I would love to hear your views on HOW so much of africa converted to islam,cuz they sure as hell didn't embrace it with open arms

[16 cycles]

[edit] in reference to the post above MG's[/edit]

^ from the little i know, i'm not so sure that the hindu texts conform to saying ' the only right text' as there are quite a few prescribing different ways to attain 'salvation'....if someone more knowledgeable can chime in....pls feel free....

[MG Man]

^ from the little i know, i'm not so sure that the hindu texts conform to saying ' the only right text' as there are quite a few prescribing different ways to attain 'salvation'....if someone more knowledgeable can chime in....pls feel free....

man you'd be amazed at how simple hinduism is...........most of it relates to cultural values (as per any religion), but a lot of it, the stories and sagas are set basically to reinforce the simple principle which was later reinforced by both John Lennon (give peace a chance, love is all you need), and later on by Bill and Ted when they proclaimed most triumphantly, 'be excellent to everyone'
That's pretty much what hinduism teaches.........live, love, doh mash nobody corn

[RBphoto]

Duane et all, the vedas is the oficial text of the Hindu religion, which tell you how to do fire ceremonies (havan) and different prescribed prayers and hymns. The Bhagvad Gita and Ramayan are secondary texts, poems which illustrate Hindu Principles, such as Sita being a good wife, hanuman the perfect servant of god, and Arjoon being given council on dharmic action in the face of a great dilema. Vedic Hindus go by the Veda and see the other texts as giving moral direction, but would not nesescarily relate to those characters in those texts as god. Other brancheas such as Sanatan Dharma would place more emphasis on the Gita and Ramayan and actually worship those characters as incarnations of god. Why all of this explanation?

Krishna in the Bhagvad gita does say that you should come to him for council and reciving salvation. The Ramayan implies that a servant of god, such as hanuman, would be highly favoured, and was able to accomplish great feats through worship of Lord Rama. That said, one should note that there have been many spinoffs of the same Hindu religion, and various stories in the same Gita of different sects worshipng differently, and of different practices of other sects being frowned upon, such as the sacrifice of meat, humans, and wearing of bones etc.

[MG Man]

na I like my version better

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

I did not question the Gita or the Vedas, I mentioned it along with the Torah and other religous texts in my comment.

[MG Man]

I just want to know where the muslims were, and what they were doing, when the romans were turning jesus into a conversation piece

[scotty_buttons]

This thread has been quite informative.
And to empasize MG man's request, I, also would like I know that.. And also where were the Hindus were as well.

[RBphoto]

I just want to know where the muslims were, and what they were doing, when the romans were turning jesus into a conversation piece

They ain't do nuttin, but if you see how vex they was.... like ...

[sMASH]

muslims, as the followers of the religion of islam taught by the prophet muhammad (pbuh), was not around at that time. these specific rules we follow now was only taught through prophet muhammad (pbuh)

the thing about it, islam says that god had sent prophets to many places at various times to different peoples. the root message the same, being that god is one and to worship him and him alone. but, the smaller rules of guidelines may have been different, but not in contradiction with the core message. so that now, we fast for the month of ramadhan, other people may have had to fast for other periods. some may have had to stay away from certain foods alone, others may have had the luxury to eat any thing etc.

the specific rules would differ.

muslims were taught that abraham and jesus (pbut) were prophets sent by god ( god as muslims believe god to be). so, the people who followed the teachings of those prophets, but most importantly the core message as god being one, would have been muslims, in the most crude sense.

and we are taught that jesus (pbuh) did not claim to be divine, just a powerful prophet, and his immediate followers did not believe that as well. it was a notion that came mainstream later from paul, and the proponents in nicea...


point to note, muslims believe that the prophet jesus (pbuh) was not crucified, but taken to heaven with out dying, to return more or less like what christians say. every soul that tastes death awaits judgement day, and every soul has to die. if he did die, then he is awaiting judgement day, and cannot return to this realm to do any thing.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

The one common denominator amongst all people is DEATH! There is no escape from that. Science cannot even explain the process.

All the rational thinkers can only try to give a rational explanation.

Why do people and animals die?????????????

If there is no God, why do we not live forever????????

I mean, if God is not real then man should be all powerful and should be able to control the natural order of things.

Why is this not so???? Is it that the natural world is also subject to God?

that is some really terrible logic
you are saying because there is a God, that is why things die?

I do not think anything in the universe if infinite or immortal except God - even planets and stars die.

even if there are aliens far more powerful than us, they too will not live forever - though a life span of ten thousand years may seem like immortal to us humans who barely ever live past 100. In perspective, if a 'mayfly' was sentient, it would think we are immortal since an average mayfly life span lasts no more than 1 day, some species live for only 30 minutes, breed and then die. Surely we are more-or-less "immortal" when compared to them.

[d spike]

BTW Jesus (on him be peace) said : "None of those who call me 'Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."[Matthew 7:21]

I love the misquotation here. If you must quote any scripture (Christian or otherwise) try to stick with the actual quotation of one's preferred translation - not with what you think it ought to be.

[996vtwin]

one day...every knee shall bow, and every tongue shalt confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.......amen

Ignorance / denial is bliss!!!

One day that bubble will be burst...and then what ...regret? It will then be too late to repent!!

BTW Jesus (on him be peace) said : "None of those who call me 'Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."[Matthew 7:21]

seriously, what makes your book so right and the bible so wrong?
seriously?

Because they forget the BIG PICTURE and focus on the STORM IN THE TEACUP.
THE BIG PICTURE:

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS: The first 2 commandments given to Moses (peace be upon him):
And God spoke all these words, saying: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
1.You shall have no other gods before me.

2.You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

These say/mean:
1. Worship nothing except THE ONE TRUE GOD.
2. Do not worship HIM via idols, images, etc.

Jesus was "in the earth beneath"...so do not bow down to him because he is NOT GOD or THE SON OF GOD!! Think about it, why does GOD need a son? to help HIM? Then HE would be imperfect or incapable of executing some part of what HE wants to do.

Our view is that HE is PERFECT in all HIS names and attributes!! Perfectly capable to execute HIS WILL.

Dear Sir "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Does this answer your question? God sent his son JESUS CHRIST to die for our sins. Whata loving God he is. He never sent Mohammed or any other prophet. The bible also speaks of false prophets and splits in religions. This was all prophesied before his death.

[mamoo_pagal]

one day...every knee shall bow, and every tongue shalt confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.......amen

Ignorance / denial is bliss!!!

One day that bubble will be burst...and then what ...regret? It will then be too late to repent!!

BTW Jesus (on him be peace) said : "None of those who call me 'Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."[Matthew 7:21]

seriously, what makes your book so right and the bible so wrong?
seriously?

Because they forget the BIG PICTURE and focus on the STORM IN THE TEACUP.
THE BIG PICTURE:

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS: The first 2 commandments given to Moses (peace be upon him):
And God spoke all these words, saying: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
1.You shall have no other gods before me.

2.You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

These say/mean:
1. Worship nothing except THE ONE TRUE GOD.
2. Do not worship HIM via idols, images, etc.

Jesus was "in the earth beneath"...so do not bow down to him because he is NOT GOD or THE SON OF GOD!! Think about it, why does GOD need a son? to help HIM? Then HE would be imperfect or incapable of executing some part of what HE wants to do.

Our view is that HE is PERFECT in all HIS names and attributes!! Perfectly capable to execute HIS WILL.

Dear Sir "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Does this answer your question? God sent his son JESUS CHRIST to die for our sins. Whata loving God he is. He never sent Mohammed or any other prophet. The bible also speaks of false prophets and splits in religions. This was all prophesied before his death.

he created us all not so, aren't we all his children?

[mamoo_pagal]

The one common denominator amongst all people is DEATH! There is no escape from that. Science cannot even explain the process.

All the rational thinkers can only try to give a rational explanation.

Why do people and animals die?????????????

If there is no God, why do we not live forever????????

I mean, if God is not real then man should be all powerful and should be able to control the natural order of things.

Why is this not so???? Is it that the natural world is also subject to God?

sigh.....