The Religion Discussion

[Mr. Red Sleeper]

^ don't think anyone's leaving

hat up
A Trini expression (circa 1990's) used to describe the action of frustrating onesself about situation(s) that they aren't in control of
"Gonna be late for work again, Lard. Da boss goin an [i]HAT UP he head bout me being late."[/i]

[megadoc1]

MG Man and others, according to the bible, one can only experience God's presence through faith. Not logic. When I apply logic to the bible, I too find lots of flaws and contradictions. This is because we think we know all, but what we know is EXTREMELY limited. We read and try to understand the bible based on what we know, and what we know can only go as far as what science says. It's pretty dumb to base your belief on science (logic) because science can say A today and say B tomorrow. There's no stability there. What science has proven to be true today, would have been laughed at and believed to be just fiction years ago. So I for one will NEVER base my belief on MAN'S limited knowledge and discoveries. They are still fishing for truth and we are just here waiting for the results.

A good question to ask yourself is - how do you know, what you know and what science has revealed is all there is to life??

Think about it.
If I grew up in a tribe in the middle of the jungle on the other side of the world and an outsider came to the tribe describing an iPad to us, we'll laugh and think he/she dabbles in sorcery or is just crazy. we may even die believing this thing called an iPad doesn't exist and is just a fable. So too are non-believers attitudes towards the truth.

I'm not gonna tell you what the truth is or what I believe to be true, but I'm telling you don't be stupid enough to let your limited belief stop you from being open minded. Science is not the full truth folks, that I know for sure.

cool!!! Jesus said it this way ."unless you are born again You cannot see the kingdom of heaven" in other words trying to materially explain the world to a baby while its in in the mothers womb, would be difficult but when the child is born he would be able to see and experience it himself..
so too, is the kingdom of heaven, only when one is born into iT he would see and experience what we are talking about..so for now it may sound very foolish
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." besides, in all this Jesus is looking for our faith in him first ,not just for us to be convinced , because we would selfishly chose whats best for us!!

If you try to figure out Christianity, BEFORE you get into it, you just get into religion and not truly converted but just 'convinced'. We have to simply believe. You cannot figure Him out, especially with an unrenewed mind. You become a 'convinced' sinner and not a 'converted' saint. Curry Blake xx

wait!!! why am I sounding like Morpheus?

[turbohead]

i still dont see where Jesus(A.S) says he is God...dat is wat pickles my brain, even though the jehovah witnesses read the same book and says that they dont believe in this trinity ting how come others do? too many ropes tuggin in opp directions....

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

i still dont see where Jesus(A.S) says he is God...dat is wat pickles my brain, even though the jehovah witnesses read the same book and says that they dont believe in this trinity ting how come others do? too many ropes tuggin in opp directions....

well in Islam they have Sunni and Shiite Muslims and some who subscribe to Hadith and some neo-islamists who claim they don't.

In every religion you will have various points of view from different followers.

[EFFECTIC DESIGNS]

Serious question here.

If God made the universe then who made God?

But we know this is impossible because we will forever be asking who made that god and who made his great great great grandfather god etc etc etc.

And he simply can't just exist like magic because if a complex being like god can exist out of magic and thin air then its the same for the universe. Something less complex can also exist out of magic and thin air. Makes no difference.

Doubt we will ever find the answer.

[MG Man]

^^^the complexity argument is lost on the religious fanatics....all they have to say is god's magical powers are beyond our understanding
If they would just admit religious belief is rooted in faith and not fact, and stop marketing their beliefs as absolute truth, then this ched would be 5 pages long

[EFFECTIC DESIGNS]

A jehova witness come by my gate tellibg me this is the year the world ends. Say jesus coming back and with him armageddon and final destruction of humanity about six billion people will be wiped out all except jehova witnesses so i asked her if christ coming back to show Hitler how it should have been done she get vex and left

[MG Man]

lmao
gotta try that one
u could do what I did some years ago, and printed a few fake curry-cue tickets for a hindu temple.......when they ask for money for the book, I say well support we temple nah........hilarious

[megadoc1]

Serious question here.

If God made the universe then who made God?

But we know this is impossible because we will forever be asking who made that god and who made his great great great grandfather god etc etc etc.

And he simply can't just exist like magic because if a complex being like god can exist out of magic and thin air then its the same for the universe. Something less complex can also exist out of magic and thin air. Makes no difference.

Doubt we will ever find the answer.

you see this line of questioning is one of those "ah ha, I gotch yah" kinda moment ... but here is the catch, Christians believes,that the universe was caused by an uncaused cause..in other words we believe that the universe was created by A being that is uncaused, beginningless, immaterial, timeless, changeless,spaceless, and enormously powerful...etc
your question ignores these aspects of the belief we hold and attempts to extract factual evidence or explanations from something that is faith based, as what is done in science when investigating the natural world ..(in evolution some say the universe started from nothing according to "fact" and most believe... so why a creator cannot be uncaused according to faith?)

now mg man could be right on the money when he says this

If they would just admit religious belief is rooted in faith and not fact, and stop marketing their beliefs as absolute truth

but whats wrong here? let me tell you , the Christians do market their faith as absolute truth,but purely based on faith!..lets not forget it is the disputers that are the ones guilty of introducing scientific lines of questioning for fact finding or as an argument against that, which is based entirely on faith....it is ridiculous to accuse the people of the faith, that they are promoting their faith as a scientific fact.it is totally absurd for Christians to promote their faith as a scientific fact and its also totally absurd to accused them of doing such because we know God is looking for believers (faith)

[megadoc1]

i still dont see where Jesus(A.S) says he is God...dat is wat pickles my brain,

point taken! but how about this, the same text clearly records him saying he is the son of God but you still wont agree with that because your text (the quran) says that god does not have a son and that's what you believe !!! my point is this, If you cannot agree with what is clearly stated because of what you believe then how much more do you think you can agree with what is not clearly stated? can you at least be this honest with your self?

even though the jehovah witnesses read the same book and says that they dont believe in this trinity ting how come others do? too many ropes tuggin in opp directions....

your use of Jehovah's witnesses is a terrible example for your argument because even tho they don't believe in the trinity, their text version of the bible clearly states that he (Jesus) is A God ..don't believe me? try reading their version of the bible for yourself john 1:1 yeah that's right a god besides God...

[MG Man]

now mg man could be right on the money when he says this

If they would just admit religious belief is rooted in faith and not fact, and stop marketing their beliefs as absolute truth

but whats wrong here? let me tell you , the Christians do market their faith as absolute truth,but purely based on faith!..lets not forget it is the disputers that are the ones guilty of introducing scientific lines of questioning for fact finding or as an argument against that, which is based entirely on faith....it is ridiculous to accuse the people of the faith, that they are promoting their faith as a scientific fact.it is totally absurd for Christians to promote their faith as a scientific fact and its also totally absurd to accused them of doing such because we know God is looking for believers (faith)

cool
but my problem is when christians (or any other religious fanatics) tell you that they are right and everyone else is going to hell. THis thing about converting non believers and such...

[sMASH]

wrt to jesus being the 'son of god' it is not that text alone which is remembered.

there are many other references to other people being sons of god. if i recall correctly, adam, david, some body else were given that same title in YOUR scripture. the title of 'son of god' albeit special, it is not unique.

it is my understanding that it was the fanciful term used in the stead of the word prophet.

now, bearing that in mind then when YOUR scripture says that he says that he is 'the truth and the life and the way' this does not mean that He is the truth and life and way, but the message he represents. this is so with all prophets, and this is the style of talking that they used back then. it cannot be taken literally.
just like when the police man says, 'i am the law'. he is not the actual law, but he represents the law, and carries it out. yet still subject to it, while not able to create it, nor change it.

then u have the indecent in your scripture where he was supposed to be praying before being taken into custody to be tried and executed. u all remember that he prayed that his father's will be done in one of the new testament books. but there is another new testament book which says that he prayed thee times to 'let that cup pass' from him, meaning prevent him from being executed. but the third time he completed by submitting and saying that if it be the will of his father then so be it.

this demonstrates that he was separate from god, that he was fearful. u may argue and say that he was in flesh and bone and so subject to the whims that accompanies it. but i argue that the flesh is not mightier than the power of god, and that even if in flesh, that the steadfastness of god would overcome the fleetingness of the flesh. u are essentially saying that god becomes fearful in the flesh.

one scripture contradicts the other in showing that he tried to get out of the situation. therefore, u get a host of circumstantial stuff: he is separate from god, he is fearful, god is over come by the flesh, the scriptures do not agree with each other.




the reason why i don't believe that jesus is the literal son of god, is not because of the quran, but because of your bible. and this was even before i embraced islam.

[mediahouse]

god is eternal and existing , man cant understand that .
jesus is a prophet

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

jesus is a prophet

so megadoc1 is lying when he says Jesus is God?

[pioneer]

brb believing greek mythology

[MG Man]

god is eternal and existing , man cant understand that .
jesus is a prophet

so u subscribe to the 'we didn't rip off the bible, we just happened to have come 600 years later with a similar story but backdated it before yours' school of thought then

[megadoc1]

now mg man could be right on the money when he says this

If they would just admit religious belief is rooted in faith and not fact, and stop marketing their beliefs as absolute truth

but whats wrong here? let me tell you , the Christians do market their faith as absolute truth,but purely based on faith!..lets not forget it is the disputers that are the ones guilty of introducing scientific lines of questioning for fact finding or as an argument against that, which is based entirely on faith....it is ridiculous to accuse the people of the faith, that they are promoting their faith as a scientific fact.it is totally absurd for Christians to promote their faith as a scientific fact and its also totally absurd to accused them of doing such because we know God is looking for believers (faith)

cool
but my problem is when christians (or any other religious fanatics) tell you that they are right and everyone else is going to hell. THis thing about converting non believers and such...

true: but according to our faith,the concept of hell was revealed by someone who we hold dearly, to be our God and we believe every word he said, in all what we are saying no matter how bold we make such claims, it is all done in faith
its remains up to you to believe or not.the same thing with other religions, they hold what they believe as truth and they would do the same.... think about it, the moment we can prove that what we are saying is true beyond any reasonable doubt it would no longer be of faith but of fact but it appears that it pleases God that we come to him in faith rather than fact...

so hear what the christian is saying, God created man , man sinned and became spiritually disconnected(dead) from God,because of this he yields himself over to satan an continually sins against God because its now in his nature to do so as satan has become his spiritual father. now God in an effort to reconcile mankind to Himself became a man in the person of Jesus Christ and paid the ultimate sacrifice for us in the hope that
when we see the amount of love demonstrated for us, through what he did, despite our rebellion towards him, we might turn from such sins and come to him and through putting our faith in him, we receive a new birth.... a new nature and a new spirit that is from God,so where it used to be our nature to sin, it has become our nature to walk in righteousness this is the true conversion that we so desire to see, can you tell me what is wrong with that concept?..........if we don't come to him we remain with our old nature and remains separated from God and remains condemned ...Satan has been judged and hell is created for him,those who reject Jesus and the saving grace that he extends to them would have no place left to go but with Satan and where he is heading.....the choice is up to us

this is what is preached, if you believe cool If you don't believe why have a problem with
us telling about the hell part ? its all faith based, just completely reject it, besides its only the love of God that can draw you to him not the thought of his wrath or punishments.....

[megadoc1]

wrt to jesus being the 'son of god' it is not that text alone which is remembered.

there are many other references to other people being sons of god. if i recall correctly, adam, david, some body else were given that same title in YOUR scripture. the title of 'son of god' albeit special, it is not unique.

it is my understanding that it was the fanciful term used in the stead of the word prophet.

smash,when Jesus claimed to be the son of God it is not like what you are describing
according to the bible he was about to be stoned for making such claims, i will give two examples, can you look them up and see for yourself that you are indeed describing something else

Joh 10:33 They answered, "We do not want to stone you because of any good deeds, but because of your blasphemy! You are only a man, but you are trying to make yourself God!"

Joh 10:36 As for me, the Father chose me and sent me into the world. How, then, can you say that I blaspheme because I said that I am the Son of God?

and what about john 3:16? For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son
is only begotten not unique?

now, bearing that in mind then when YOUR scripture says that he says that he is 'the truth and the life and the way' this does not mean that He is the truth and life and way, but the message he represents. this is so with all prophets, and this is the style of talking that they used back then. it cannot be taken literally.
just like when the police man says, 'i am the law'. he is not the actual law, but he represents the law, and carries it out. yet still subject to it, while not able to create it, nor change it.

if you read those verses in context you would see that someone did ask him to show them the way his reply was that he is it
Joh 14:2 There are many rooms in my Father's house, and I am going to prepare a place for you. I would not tell you this if it were not so.
Joh 14:3 And after I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to myself, so that you will be where I am.
Joh 14:4 You know the way that leads to the place where I am going."
Joh 14:5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going; so how can we know the way to get there?"
Joh 14:6 Jesus answered him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one goes to the Father except by me.
Joh 14:7 Now that you have known me," he said to them, "you will know my Father also, and from now on you do know him and you have seen him."
Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father; that is all we need."
Joh 14:9 Jesus answered, "For a long time I have been with you all; yet you do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. Why, then, do you say, 'Show us the Father'?

then u have the indecent in your scripture where he was supposed to be praying before being taken into custody to be tried and executed. u all remember that he prayed that his father's will be done in one of the new testament books. but there is another new testament book which says that he prayed thee times to 'let that cup pass' from him, meaning prevent him from being executed. but the third time he completed by submitting and saying that if it be the will of his father then so be it.

smash you may need to read the text to be sure about what you are saying, concerning what jesus prayed it would be quite useful had you put them up to show what you are taking about but take a look for yourself it appears that he said the same thing in all three gospels where it is recorded

Mat 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.


Mar 14:35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
Mar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Luk 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

this demonstrates that he was separate from god, that he was fearful. u may argue and say that he was in flesh and bone and so subject to the whims that accompanies it. but i argue that the flesh is not mightier than the power of god, and that even if in flesh, that the steadfastness of god would overcome the fleetingness of the flesh. u are essentially saying that god becomes fearful in the flesh.

yes he was separated from God and forsaken in that God condemned sin in him...I remembered reading that he cried out
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Psa 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?


Php 2:6 He always had the nature of God, but he did not think that by force he should try to remain equal with God.
Php 2:7 Instead of this, of his own free will he gave up all he had, and took the nature of a servant. He became like a human being and appeared in human likeness.
Php 2:8 He was humble and walked the path of obedience all the way to death--- his death on the cross.

he layed aside his glory for a moment

one scripture contradicts the other in showing that he tried to get out of the situation. therefore, u get a host of circumstantial stuff: he is separate from god, he is fearful, god is over come by the flesh, the scriptures do not agree with each other.

take a read again maybe you would see for yourself that you are wrong in what you are saying as shown above

the reason why i don't believe that jesus is the literal son of god, is not because of the quran, but because of your bible. and this was even before i embraced islam.

if its because of the bible and the reasons are really what you highlighted above, it stands to reason that you did not read the bible or cannot understand what was written!
now that you can see that you were wrong in what you gathered,would you revisit the text and see what it really has to say?

[MG Man]

awwwww sheit I too lazy to read all that

[sMASH]

yes, he had to go to 'his' father's house, as he is the christ. he is special prophet, like adam (pbuh) and david( pbuh), and noah(pbuh). they had even greater roles to play than the rest, most of whom are unnamed.

his mission is to return and lead mankind, in the end of days. but he is not dead, nor was he ever. he came, spread his word, and was taken up until his return. he will return, and then die when his final task is complete. then he would be judged as every man would be.

so, yes, he does go to OUR father's house as he is supposed to.

so, your scripture still says that he asked that he not go through his task. meaning, he is not god.

i still do not see where he is the literal son of god, or god incarnate. sry...
but nevertheless, to u yours and to me mine.

[bluefete]

Hi Folks:

It's been a while for me. Pressures of work, family and study. Plus Tuner became very addictive for me so I had to disappear.

I have been catching up on the posts and they have been most enlightening.

To Mediahouse and Smash: About Jesus - Luke 24:19 says : "And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people"

So you are correct. However Jesus himself said much more about his relationship with God the Father.

Matthew 26:53 "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"

This was when he was captured in the Garden.

The relationship is clear. Jesus was the Son of God. He was much more than a prophet.

[megadoc1]

yes, he had to go to 'his' father's house, as he is the christ. he is special prophet, like adam (pbuh) and david( pbuh), and noah(pbuh). they had even greater roles to play than the rest, most of whom are unnamed.

no not at all, none of the prophets mentioned, referred to God as father that's something only Jesus did ..he is the only person that revealed God as the father

his mission is to return and lead mankind, in the end of days. but he is not dead, nor was he ever. he came, spread his word, and was taken up until his return. he will return, and then die when his final task is complete. then he would be judged as every man would be.

this is what you learnt in Islam, why are you attempting to read this stuff into the bible?

so, yes, he does go to OUR father's house as he is supposed to.

lol.... so whats the fuss? why does the quran take issue with using such a term?
Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth; how can He have a son when He has no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.
—Qur'an 6:101
The Jews say Ezra is the son of God, while the Christians say the Messiah is the son of God. Such are their assertions, by which they imitate the infidels of old. God confound them! How perverse they are!
—Qur’an 9:30
They say, ‘God has begotten a son.’ God forbid! Self-sufficient is He. His is all that the heavens and the earth contain. Surely for this you have no sanction. Would you say of God what you know not?
—Qur’an 10:68
Surely they lie when they declare: "Allah has begotten children".
—Qur'an 37:151
Say: ‘GOD is One, the Eternal God. He begot none, nor was He begotten. None is equal to Him.’
—Qur’an 112:1-4
c'mon smash ,its either two things, the writer of the Qur'an did not understand it the way you are trying to pass it off now, or you are just in a state of compromising

so, your scripture still says that he asked that he not go through his task. meaning, he is not god.

please elaborate, let me see the logic behind this statement. are you trying to borrow bits of what we believe to refute it ?..no no no son take all of what is said before you object..... we believe Jesus is one person with two natures one divine and one human
please take a look into what we believe before you offer these objections.....

i still do not see where he is the literal son of god, or god incarnate. sry...
but nevertheless, to u yours and to me mine.

you may not see it but that does not mean it is not there, I know you believe allah wrote the Qur'an so you must believe when you see verses of him making a fuss about what we believe concerning that. he is all knowing remember? or was it just someone writing what they did not understand about our beliefs? would you discard those verses in the Qur'an? as I said before you are looking
at the bible and our beliefs with the quran as your yard stick! please read out of the bible and not into it......

[turbohead]

my arguement is that if you attribute the physical aspects of man to God then wat you personify as God ceases to be so, when the bible says that God took a rest on the sabbath it gives a human attribute to God which goes into contradiction of what God is. God is eternal and exist beyond space and time and is where He is before He created..

[pioneer]

By the laws of physics/nature for something to exist it must be defined within space & time.

If you're saying god is beyond that, I urge you to get your head checked.

[sMASH]

now u bringing up the topic of physical and natural laws. god is supposed to be the creator of all of that stuff, but not bound by it.

if u say that u can't go against it, you're wrong, as quantum physics would show.
in the big bang, even before the atoms were forming, there was a time when time and space were forming. the laws of nature and the physical reality did not exist/function even then. scientists don't 'know' this literally, but postulate this. in effect, the 'know' that just like christians 'know' god.

[pioneer]

Fear creates control.

They tell you fear god, anyone ever told us to fear science?

Interesting.

[turbohead]

yeh but science is still wat it is anddat is inconclusive, they stil cant create the 'God Particle' after so many years... wat formed the first nucleus of teh first atom? there always has to be the creator who is above all and not limited to our time and space and will continue to exist when creation ceases to exist. atheist and scientoligist can talk and squalk all they like they still cant prove jack sheit on their part when all the answers where there in the Quran way before science even tried to explain. cas ein point the drowning of Pharoh in the time of Moses(A.S). the bible has nothing on it so how come did it 'pop up' as you will say in the Quran?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

AFAIK they not creating the Higgs Boson (God particle), they are using the LHC to find it.

You can read more about it here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson

And it's not called the God Particle because it proves or disproves God. It has nothing to do with God at all, infact it was the media who gave it that name to sell newspapers!

"The God particle"

The Higgs boson is often referred to as "the God particle" by the media, after the title of Leon Lederman's popular science book on particle physics, The God Particle: If the Universe Is the Answer, What Is the Question? While use of this term may have contributed to increased media interest, scientists dislike the name, since it overstates the particle's importance, not least since its discovery would still leave unanswered questions about the unification of QCD, the electroweak interaction and gravity, and the ultimate origin of the universe.
Lederman said he gave it the nickname "The God Particle" because the particle is "so central to the state of physics today, so crucial to our understanding of the structure of matter, yet so elusive," but jokingly added that a second reason was because "the publisher wouldn't let us call it the Goddamn Particle, though that might be a more appropriate title, given its villainous nature and the expense it is causing."
A renaming competition conducted by the science correspondent for the British Guardian newspaper chose the name "the champagne bottle boson" as the best from among their submissions: "The bottom of a champagne bottle is in the shape of the Higgs potential and is often used as an illustration in physics lectures. So it's not an embarrassingly grandiose name, it is memorable, and [it] has some physics connection too."

[turbohead]

senes but still they tryna create wat is out of the capacity

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ well someone probably said that when the Wright Brothers tried to fly on a contraption with wings, or when Edison was trying to make the first lightbulb (a light without a flame).