The Religion Discussion

[Kasey]

I say what you write is codswallop, and you say what I write is crap... the only difference is that I know what I am talking about, while you are just parroting what someone told you to pacify you when your possessed girlfriend freaked you out...

ooohhhh LLLAAAAAADDDDDD!!!!!BBBBBWWWWAAAAHHHHHHHAAAAAA!!!!!!! YUH KILLIN MEH SPIKEY!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!!!!

[sensiman]

You guys are going to love the new season of Dexter. Even of you are not a fan.

[megadoc1]

.

The bottom line in any argument with you is your belief as a fundamentalist, and the basis of this very belief denies you the possibility of maintaining a debate on religious beliefs.
Fundamentalism has one basic rule:
1. This belief is the right one.
This rule means all other beliefs are wrong. This rule also means that the scripture used to base one's faith on is true, correct, perfect... for to consider otherwise would mean rule#1 is wrong.
Therefore you HAVE to believe that the Bible is focused on one thing, the same as your faith... one "message"... one complete... book. You weren't fooling anyone giving lip-service to the concept of the Bible being multiple writings - you still treat the Bible like one entity. Hence the reason why you cannot accept the basic truth about the Bible - different books, different authors and different reasons for writing those books.
The irony of this situation is that the one compelling fact that explains why they all deserve to be compiled together, that explains what binds these diverse books together, is the one truth you will not accept: these books were compiled because they were all considered to be inspired by the Holy Spirit - and the folks who decided this were the RC boys...

lol at the straw man arguments just to justify your saying that the bible
(the books )is an actual collection of books....now you need to convince yourself
and try to convince me that I believe the bible is one book......... whatever wee
posted this many times before

The Holy Bible is comprised of 66 books, written over approximately 1600 years, by at least 40 distinct authors. The Old Testament (Old Covenant) contains 39 books written from approximately 1500 to 400 BC, and the New Testament (New Covenant) contains 27 books written from approximately 40 to 90 AD. The Jewish Bible (Tenach) is the same as the Christian Old Testament, except for its book arrangement. The original Old Testament was written mainly in Hebrew, with some Aramaic, while the original New Testament was written in Greek.

anyhow I liked this line

these books were compiled because they were all considered to be inspired by the Holy Spirit

this is what matters most to me, that's why I take every word in this collection of books wholesale ....its my faith in the one who inspired it because He lives in me , I don't have to believe that the Bible is focused on one thing, I just believe what it says, It happens to focus on one thing and that's life and I choose life by faith

I know your knee-jerk reaction will be to deny this by saying they weren't considered Roman Catholic at the time... that the Catholics came around much later - but that would be just more codswallop on your part... and I can prove it (but I will leave that for later )

sorry pal but you are wrong,yuh see
I don't need to deny anything,the fact is the bible (the books)is an actual collection of books that is believed to be inspired (God breathed.)by God, Christians because of their faith in Jesus, can recognise the work of God hence the compilation of the bible....

but .... you are saying that the bible (the books ) should not be taken wholesale because its a massive collection of writings and made up of many books
now that's funny............

[sMASH]

in other words, no matter who were involved with it, or what they were doing, at the end of the day, the book was intended to turn out that way,,, any way.

[d spike]

the fact is the bible (the books)is an actual collection of books that is believed to be inspired (God breathed.)by God, Christians because of their faith in Jesus, can recognise the work of God hence the compilation of the bible....

I knew you were going to pull that string... so here is what it leads to:
If the books in the bible were compiled before the fifth century by Christians who recognised the work of God, then why did Luther toss out some of those worthy scriptures? Does the "Bible" you read contain all the books that those worthy fellows chose? Or does it lack these scriptures (and is thus incomplete)?

but .... you are saying that the bible (the books ) should not be taken wholesale because its a massive collection of writings and made up of many books
now that's funny............

Your sense of humour is just as irrational as your arguments... What is meant by your glib use of "wholesale"? I never said anything denigrating about any of the books in the bible, I am just saying - as do most of the world's scholars - that the Bible should be accepted for what it is. Your blind faith refuses to accept anything less than the gilded pedestal that fundamentalists have placed the Bible on... which is why my position so offends you, even though it isn't offensive in the least.

[illumin@ti]

speak it slower so he can understand u spike. perhaps u need the aid of a diagram, yes?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ I fed up tell Spike he needs to type slower so they will understand him lol

[pioneer]

mirin ur logic spike

[megadoc1]

the fact is the bible (the books)is an actual collection of books that is believed to be inspired (God breathed.)by God, Christians because of their faith in Jesus, can recognise the work of God hence the compilation of the bible....

I knew you were going to pull that string... so here is what it leads to:
If the books in the bible were compiled before the fifth century by Christians who recognised the work of God, then why did Luther toss out some of those worthy scriptures?

I don't know maybe he has his reasons after all he is a man and can do as he choose, God respects that, just how he respected the decisions of Judas who walked with Jesus and betrayed him and even peter who denied Jesus .
( I am in no way calling Luther a Judas eh I am merely pointing Judas out as the worst it got with men who followed jesus ) ....God did not take away our free will or make us robots when we received him... those worthy scriptures as you call it, are still in my bible and I ain't tossing it out...so what are you really asking? Luther rejecting scripture have nothing to do with me...
I follow Jesus not Luther.

Does the "Bible" you read contain all the books that those worthy fellows chose? Or does it lack these scriptures (and is thus incomplete)?

steups......name the bibles that lack these scriptures maybe I can answer you, better yet, post the scriptures that are allegedly "tossed"....

but .... you are saying that the bible (the books ) should not be taken wholesale because its a massive collection of writings and made up of many books
now that's funny............

I never said anything denigrating about any of the books in the bible, I am just saying - as do most of the world's scholars - that the Bible should be accepted for what it is.

I never said you said anything denigrating about any of the books in the bible how you come up with that? I just find your line funny

Well, if you are going to swallow everything in the bible wholesale, you are going to end up in a certifiable mess, as the bible is simply a massive collection of writings, made up of many books, written by people who differed in outlook..................

and I just @ your reason

Your blind faith refuses to accept anything less than the gilded pedestal that fundamentalists have placed the Bible on...

more straws? stop with the ad hominem crap!!!
what this have to do with you saying that if one gonna take the bible (the books) wholesale you are going to end up in a certifiable mess because the bible (the books) is an actual collection of books?

which is why my position so offends you, even though it isn't offensive in the least.

darling.... your position do not offend me ok, you are too precious to God to offend me .... it is very hard for someone to offend me... but because you label me fundamentalist in your quest to invalidate my position...does not automatically means you offend me ok... maybe in your mind it seems so ....but in reality NO

[bluefete]

This used to be called "demon possession" then "multiple personality disorder". I suppose this proves that 'demons" don't exist and her body / mind is occupied by many personalities that can only manifest one at a time.

The woman with 20 personalities in one body: An anorexic teen and a boy who writes in Latin. They all take over Kim's mind in a case that's baffled experts

By Charlotte Kemp

Last updated at 1:57 AM on 28th September 2011

The entire class fell silent as the teacher, Mrs Baldwin, marched across the room. ‘Kim Noble, stand up!’ she barked, grabbing the bewildered five-year-old’s arm. ‘What did you do that for?’

The little girl looked down at her blouse and skirt. They were covered in splodges of black paint.

‘Of course, the teacher was exasperated when I denied doing it,’ recalls Kim, now 51 and with a daughter of her own, ‘because she’d seen me smear it over myself. But as far as I was concerned, it was somebody else who’d done it.’

What Kim couldn’t have known then was that she was suffering from a rare condition called Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) — more commonly known as ‘split personality disorder’ — and that over the next four decades, her mind would regularly switch from one character to another without warning.

The most consistent of Kim’s personalities is called Patricia, and she is the narrator of an intriguing new book called All Of Me, which attempts to piece together Kim’s extraordinary, chaotic life.

In fact, Kim Noble no longer really exists. She explains: ‘To most of the outside world I am Kim Noble, and I’ll answer to that name. But the truth is her mind shattered into fragments before she could even talk, leaving numerous alter egos to take over.’


Adoring: Kim Noble with her daughter Aimee, whom she claims she has no memory of giving birth too. Aimee even has her own favourites for her mother's different personalities

Today, there are more than 20 alter egos who can appear at any given moment. Alongside the sensible, no-nonsense Patricia, there’s Abi, who’s single and desperately looking for love, Bonny, a mother with a young daughter, and Salome, a devout Roman Catholic. There’s a little boy called Diabalus who only writes in Latin, and a depressed twenty-something called Ken.

Truly, this is a story that stretches credulity to its limit. But Kim’s extraordinary case has been studied closely by therapists and doctors, who are convinced she is not a fantasist and is genuinely in the grip of forces beyond her conscious control.
'Normal for me is driving to the shops and returning home with my boot full of groceries I didn’t want... It's opening my wardrobe and discovering clothes I hadn't bought, or taking delivery of pizzas I didn’t order.'


An alter ego called Patricia has been her dominant personality now for more than six years. Patricia runs the household, takes primary care of daughter Aimee, now 14, and does her best to make sure mother and daughter live a normal family life.

But even on a good day, two or three other personas will take over completely and do whatever they want while in control of Kim’s body.

When a switch happens, it’s literally as though someone else slides into Kim’s skin. Her face twitches as the eloquent, rational Patricia gives way to mischievous Judy, a self-conscious 15-year-old who often appears at mealtimes. Judy is always bemused by the frumpy clothes she is wearing and immediately wants to get changed.

‘Sometimes, I can end up wearing five different outfits in one morning,’ explains Patricia.

‘Normal for me is driving to the shops and returning home with my boot full of groceries I didn’t want,’ she writes. ‘It’s opening my wardrobe and discovering clothes I hadn’t bought, or taking delivery of pizzas I didn’t order.

‘Coming back after a personality switch is like waking up from a nap. It takes a few seconds of blinking and looking around to get my bearings, to work out who I’m with, where I am, and what I’m in the middle of doing,’ she says.

‘I could disappear from my sofa and wake up at a pub, or a supermarket, or even driving a car without a clue where I’m heading.’

Usually, in those suffering from DID, the dominant personalities have some awareness of the other characters: maybe they hear voices or they can see what is going in even when they’re not in control.

But with Kim’s condition, there is no ‘seepage’ between the personalities. They operate independently of each other — sharing the same body but none of the same experiences.

Hence the incident with the paint at school. Patricia believes that another more mischievous character threw the paint, and she was left to pick up the pieces with no knowledge of what had gone on just seconds before.

Most experts agree that DID is triggered by severe trauma, and it seems as though Kim’s mind constantly compartmentalises itself to cope with painful life experiences.

Some of the characters seemed to be inextricably linked to episodes in Kim’s life — even though she has no memory of them. Take Dawn, who is looking for her baby — an echo, surely, of the traumatic moment in Kim’s life when her baby was taken away at birth by social services because of her history of mental health problems.
Most experts agree that DID is triggered by severe trauma, and it seems as though Kim’s mind constantly compartmentalises itself to cope with painful life experiences.

Others are arrested in time. Like the teenage Judy, who has an eating disorder — just as Noble did when she was a young woman.

But it is Ria, a 12-year-old girl, who probably holds the key to what triggered this bizarre disorder in the first place. Ria continually paints disturbing pictures showing children being bullied and abused.

Kim, who has no recollection of any abuse, may never know the truth. It may be just too painful for her to comprehend. But it seems certain that she suffered great trauma in very early childhood.

Kim undergoes intense therapy sessions in order to face up to what has happened in her life, and to reintegrate the personalities so that she can finally live as one person.

But for now, it is Kim’s rational self, Patricia, who is running the show, and she copes by viewing the other personalities as permanent house guests. She leaves notes for them, and several have email accounts so she can contact them that way.

She has even managed to draw some positives from her disorder, for today she is a successful artist, exhibiting the (very different) works produced by a number of her alter egos.

Her daughter Aimee, meanwhile, in the way of children, has grown up to regard her mother’s various personalities as entirely normal. So much so, she even has her favourites.

Aimee was taken into care for six months when she was a baby, but the psychotherapists treating Kim helped her to appeal against this decision on the grounds that none of the personalities was a threat to the child. Since then, Kim has been able to raise her daughter with the support of therapists and social workers.

When Kim was a child growing up in Croydon, South London, life was confusing and frightening as she was constantly switching between different personalities. Her parents James and Dorothy Noble, who worked in the computer industry, seemed to have largely ignored her bizarre behaviour, putting it down to naughtiness.

But when Kim hit puberty, other far more disturbed alter egos starting making regular appearances — such as Rebecca, who was suicidal, Sonia, who was anorexic, and Judy the bulimic teenager who binged on shredded paper.

Kim was first referred to a psychiatrist at 14, and spent much of her late teens in various homes for ‘troubled’ teenagers until she was mistakenly diagnosed with schizophrenia in her early 20s.
'Aimee is not just my number one priority. All the personalities love her - which is why Christmas and birthdays are such fun. It’s not unusual for Aimee to get presents from a dozen of us.'


Kim was sectioned, put on strong antipsychotic drugs and told she was likely to remain in a mental hospital for at least the next six years.

But she instinctively knew it wasn’t the right diagnosis — and, sure enough, her mind came to the rescue by allowing another alter ego, a bolshie young woman called Hayley, to become dominant. Hayley appealed against the ward of court order and won.

Once out of hospital, Kim’s problems were far from over, however. For the next few years, three dominant characters were competing for control of her body — Hayley, the feisty one, Bonny, the maternal one, and Patricia, the sensible one — and depending on which alter ego was in control, Kim found herself living in totally different parts of London.

This part of her life sounds almost too far-fetched to be true. But Noble claims she has since found letters addressed to Hayley and Bonny, and that at one point she was dividing her life between three different homes.

It sounds implausible, and even Noble cannot convincingly explain the logistics; but then we are not talking about an ordinary life.

Some may struggle to believe that Kim’s personalities have no awareness of one another, but Graeme Galton, a consultant psychotherapist at the Clinic for Dissociative Studies in London, says it is perfectly possible.

He has never treated Kim but has encountered patients with her condition. He says: ‘Dissociative identity disorder is a complex post-traumatic stress disorder. The purpose, psychologically, is to protect the mind when a traumatic event has taken place.

‘To do this, the mind splits off the memory of the trauma into a separate identity. That means that, in its most original and true form, there is an amnesiac (memory) barrier between different personality states, although some people can develop flashbacks or nightmares.

‘People may just have two or three personalities, but I work with some individuals who have an enormous number. Sometimes people who have experienced multiple trauma, especially as children, have separate identities for every traumatic incident.’

Noble’s personal life became even more complicated when she fell pregnant. She believes the father was Patricia’s on-off boyfriend — but insists she has no memory of the pregnancy, or the birth in 1997.
'Trying to tell this story when, for a lot of my life, I was only around for a fraction of a day at a time, has been hard.'

Again, it seems that her inbuilt defence mechanism kicked in — this time in order to protect her from the pain of her child being removed from her care within hours of the birth. This traumatic event is remembered by only one personality, a troubled woman called Dawn.

Another personality, Bonny, then took over, and Bonny considered herself to be Aimee’s mother when the child was small. Kim was only able to piece all this together years later, with the help of therapists, when she was finally diagnosed with Dissociative Identity Disorder in the mid 1990s.

‘From the moment I (Patricia) became the dominant personality, I promised I would discover as much as possible about the life — or lives — of Kim Noble. After so much confusion, I needed to have the facts, however unpalatable.

‘But trying to tell this story when, for a lot of my life, I was only around for a fraction of a day at a time, has been hard.’ She began to put together the pieces of the puzzle with the help of trauma therapist Dr Evelyn Laine.

‘It was Dr Laine who told me about a woman called Hayley and another called Bonny, two personalities that had previously been dominant and whom she’d met in therapy sessions.

‘I recognised both names instantly. I’d seen letters addressed to both at my house, and had wondered who they were. She also helped me to face up to another truth — that Aimee was my own daughter.’

The little girl was returned to Kim Noble’s care at six months, and has, with close monitoring from social workers, remained with her since.

‘Aimee saw from a very early age all the different personalities coming out of Mama,’ says Kim. ‘She learnt, almost subliminally, to accept each and every one of them as a person in their own right.’

Confusing though it may be at times, Kim stresses that there are unexpected benefits too. ‘Aimee is not just my number one priority. All the personalities love her — which is why Christmas and birthdays are such fun. It’s not unusual for Aimee to get presents from a dozen of us.

‘They all shop for gifts themselves. I can’t complain, even when I see my money disappearing. After all, it’s Kim Noble’s name on the credit cards, not mine. They’ve as much right as anyone to spend it.’

It was thanks to Aimee that Kim discovered the healing powers of painting. What started as a fun thing to do with her daughter proved to be a powerful way for many of her personas to express themselves.

Thirteen of Kim’s alter egos now paint, and Kim often wakes up in the morning to discover a new work she has no recollection of creating.

‘By introducing painting into our lives, I’ve actively helped to steady the ship,’ she says.

‘According to Dr Laine, our lives have never been less chaotic. Painting seems to provide an alternative outlet for some of those with suicidal thoughts, and in other cases has just made the rest of us strong enough to resist.

‘And Dr Laine says Aimee couldn’t be in better hands. She was even voted Head Girl at her school.’

Kim, meanwhile, is winning plaudits for her art. ‘Our first exhibition at a gallery in Hampstead was such an emotional experience. Seeing all our paintings hanging side by side took my breath away.

‘I realised that part of every personality was up there. It was the nearest thing to integration we will get.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... z1ZEXml3sw

[pioneer]

LOL@ dailymail source

Then again you believe in the bible

[bluefete]

LOL@ dailymail source

Then again you believe in the bible

I wouldn't laugh so hard if i were you Pios. It is like shooting the messenger!!

So because the DM published it, it should be discounted???

[d spike]

...so what are you really asking? Luther rejecting scripture have nothing to do with me...
I follow Jesus not Luther.

How nice...
Cut a long story short... which "Bible" do you use?

[bluefete]

...so what are you really asking? Luther rejecting scripture have nothing to do with me...
I follow Jesus not Luther.

How nice...
Cut a long story short... which "Bible" do you use?

Spikey: Interesting comment. While I subscribe to the KJV, I also read the Ethiopian Bible, the Catholic Bible and others. It would be interesting to find out why the Book of Enoch, for example, is found in the Ethiopian Bible but not in the KJV but yet still the KVJ mentions about Enoch's writings in the book of Jude!!

Even the Jehovah's Witnesses have their own bible in which they omit words, lines and paragraphs found in the KJV.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

...so what are you really asking? Luther rejecting scripture have nothing to do with me...
I follow Jesus not Luther.

How nice...
Cut a long story short... which "Bible" do you use?

Spikey: Interesting comment. While I subscribe to the KJV, I also read the Ethiopian Bible, the Catholic Bible and others. It would be interesting to find out why the Book of Enoch, for example, is found in the Ethiopian Bible but not in the KJV but yet still the KVJ mentions about Enoch's writings in the book of Jude!!

Even the Jehovah's Witnesses have their own bible in which they omit words, lines and paragraphs found in the KJV.

it is interesting to note that all Muslims use the exact same Qu'ran. There is only one version of the Qu'ran and it is in arabic. The translations of the qu'ran in english, spanish, french, german etc are not considered real qu'rans AFAIK since they will have a bit of differences when finding suitable terms and words to match the language and this can never truly be done.

it's kind of like translating the trini word "ent" into another language - you may never get the exact meaning, feeling, idea or concept that the original will convey and it may be difficult if not impossible to describe it properly in another language.

[Chimera]

^^^ a muslim told me once (very angrily ) that the Qu'ran was brought down straight from Allah by the angel Gabreel.

[turbohead]

ill give him the benfit of the doubt where you were being hard of understanding..... but bluefete from wat i gather is that the kjv of the bible put in verses dat is not in the earlier rsv of the bible. the latter being dated close back to the time of the prophet jesus(pbuh) so in my opinion the closer dated something is to a period or time will be the closest truth. similar if we all gather in a circle and one man passes a sentence to another whilst whispering it to the other ear by the time it reaches back to the original person who said it, it will be distorted if not controlled by a mediator. who were the mediators in passing of information wrt the bible, that is my arguement. for the Quran i can say without the shadow of a doubt that it was preserved soundly in its original form since the time of the Prophet(saw). i could put my head on a block for that statement if i wish to.

[megadoc1]

about bible versions ...they are translated from the original languages that the scriptures were written in (Greek and Hebrew) and they are still available today for us to reference....one of the reasons why the kjv is preferred by many is that at the time of its translation, there wasn't alot of the "agendas" we have in this modern day

from wat i gather is that the kjv of the bible put in verses dat is not in the earlier rsv of the bible. the latter being dated close back to the time of the prophet jesus(pbuh) so in my opinion the closer dated something is to a period or time will be the closest truth.

breds I think I told you this before, the English bibles are translated from scriptures written in Greek and Hebrew which is still available for us today,
any one can go compare for themselves to see what was added or omited
do not be deceived...............

similar if we all gather in a circle and one man passes a sentence to another whilst whispering it to the other ear by the time it reaches back to the original person who said it, it will be distorted if not controlled by a mediator.who were the mediators in passing of information wrt the bible, that is my arguement.

this argument is self defeating and is proven false as both the bible and the koran was transmited orally over many years before it was written down, this was due to a practice commonly done in the ancient world with great efficiency............this is something that the person telling you , always fail to mention ............. so to say it cant work for the bible you must admit that it cant work for the quran otherwise you are committing a fallacy

for the Quran i can say without the shadow of a doubt that it was preserved soundly in its original form since the time of the Prophet(saw).

the same can be said of the bible ...

[pioneer]

Can you godly folk explain how god allows a 4 yr old child to be punched to death???

people in my office refuse to say n only answering with sarcasm

[pioneer]

Anyone?....please?

[sensiman]

Anyone?....please?

Good question. I guess it is too inconvenient to answer..oh wait..

"God's plans are not for us to understand", "The child's spirit/soul was needed in heaven",
"It is the work of the devil/shaitan"

or some other brainwashing induced retort.

[pioneer]

Anyone?....please?

Good question. I guess it is too inconvenient to answer..oh wait..

"God's plans are not for us to understand", "The child's spirit/soul was needed in heaven",
"It is the work of the devil/shaitan"

or some other brainwashing induced retort.

I asked them how come god allows lil children to die, they said cuz those chiren were sent to change and inspire people's lives...served their purpose n god took them back...cuz god controls everything...

Then i asked...why would god allow a child to be brutally murdered...is he so sick n cruel?

Noone can answer

[pioneer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Satan

I encourage all to read, yes we know it's wikipedia but it sums it up

A point to note, the Church of Satan doesn't even believe in any supernatural being or deity known as satan. To them satanism is a model or role of behaviour.

They also say people who believe in supernatural entities such as god and the "devil" are insane, to which i agree.

[bluefete]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Satan

I encourage all to read, yes we know it's wikipedia but it sums it up

A point to note, the Church of Satan doesn't even believe in any supernatural being or deity known as satan. To them satanism is a model or role of behaviour.

They also say people who believe in supernatural entities such as god and the "devil" are insane, to which i agree.

Isn't that quite like Satan - to make evil seem innocuous!!!! Satan IS a supernatural entity. Don't be fooled,Pios.

About why God allowed the 4 year old child to be brutally murdered:

Why do we always blame GOD for the bad things that happen to people and in the world??? Sin is the cause of evil and unrighteousness. When bad things happen it is because of our sinful nature, not because of God. An innocent child being raped, murdered, beaten etc.is hard enough for anyone to understand. But it happens. God permits things to remind us of our sinful nature and frailty. God has also allowed Satan to be quite influential in this world. However, we will never truly understand God's wisdom in allowing certain things to happen. Remember we have the concept of "choice".

[bluefete]

...so what are you really asking? Luther rejecting scripture have nothing to do with me...
I follow Jesus not Luther.

How nice...
Cut a long story short... which "Bible" do you use?

Spikey: Interesting comment. While I subscribe to the KJV, I also read the Ethiopian Bible, the Catholic Bible and others. It would be interesting to find out why the Book of Enoch, for example, is found in the Ethiopian Bible but not in the KJV but yet still the KVJ mentions about Enoch's writings in the book of Jude!!

Even the Jehovah's Witnesses have their own bible in which they omit words, lines and paragraphs found in the KJV.

it is interesting to note that all Muslims use the exact same Qu'ran. There is only one version of the Qu'ran and it is in arabic. The translations of the qu'ran in english, spanish, french, german etc are not considered real qu'rans AFAIK since they will have a bit of differences when finding suitable terms and words to match the language and this can never truly be done.

it's kind of like translating the trini word "ent" into another language - you may never get the exact meaning, feeling, idea or concept that the original will convey and it may be difficult if not impossible to describe it properly in another language.

So then to understand the Qu'ran, I must go learn Arabic, then read it. Thus, should I should discard my English Language version of the Qu'ran because it is totally inaccurate?

[bluefete]

I think it's clear that for there to be a creation there has to be a creator,otherwise we can't call it creation.

Quite right... for THOSE who think of it as a creation!
As I said in my response to you:

Faith provides the vision to see that which one's faith is focused on.

Without a creator, there is evolution. The notion that things appear by "magic" or always existed in some form (isn't this how God is?) and adapt to their environment over time.

smh



science and magic are not the same.
miracles on the other hand...

Sorry, there, Spikey old chap. I think that was an incomplete sentence I posted.

Did God work magic? Or did he use the wonders of the natural work to accomplish his handiwork?

Can evolution be speeded up or must it take billions of years?

Has there ever been a 'real" miracle??

[mediahouse]

Can you godly folk explain how god allows a 4 yr old child to be punched to death???

people in my office refuse to say n only answering with sarcasm

Thats just like sayin wheres god when people having abortions, or where was god when the people in chaguanas get rape or where was god when there was a big earthquake or tsunami etc..

if god had to intervene everytime there was a bad act being committed we as might as well be living in heaven?

people who believe in god and an after life knows this life is just a shell to carry your deeds to when you meet your maker so if a baby was murdered then they are innocent they will be taken care of by the creator.


Surely god is not unfair and the wicked people will be punished.

[bluefete]

Can you godly folk explain how god allows a 4 yr old child to be punched to death???

people in my office refuse to say n only answering with sarcasm

Thats just like sayin wheres god when people having abortions, or where was god when the people in chaguanas get rape or where was god when there was a big earthquake or tsunami etc..

if god had to intervene everytime there was a bad act being committed we as might as well be living in heaven?

people who believe in god and an after life knows this life is just a shell to carry your deeds to when you meet your maker so if a baby was murdered then they are innocent they will be taken care of by the creator.


Surely god is not unfair and the wicked people will be punished.

Amen to this.

[dtp]

Can you godly folk explain how god allows a 4 yr old child to be punched to death???

people in my office refuse to say n only answering with sarcasm

the problem here is that mankind only look the find someone to blame 4 others wrong doing.

don't blame god for others evil doing.


we all have been cursed this runs in we veins from eve
she ate from the forbidden fruit.

how we have full control or mine /body/heart
we are in control

don't blame god if a man cant control his anger and bet his daughter to death.

old testament explain this

[dtp]

about bible versions ...they are translated from the original languages that the scriptures were written in (Greek and Hebrew) and they are still available today for us to reference....one of the reasons why the kjv is preferred by many is that at the time of its translation, there wasn't alot of the "agendas" we have in this modern day

from wat i gather is that the kjv of the bible put in verses dat is not in the earlier rsv of the bible. the latter being dated close back to the time of the prophet jesus(pbuh) so in my opinion the closer dated something is to a period or time will be the closest truth.

breds I think I told you this before, the English bibles are translated from scriptures written in Greek and Hebrew which is still available for us today,
any one can go compare for themselves to see what was added or omited
do not be deceived...............

similar if we all gather in a circle and one man passes a sentence to another whilst whispering it to the other ear by the time it reaches back to the original person who said it, it will be distorted if not controlled by a mediator.who were the mediators in passing of information wrt the bible, that is my arguement.

this argument is self defeating and is proven false as both the bible and the koran was transmited orally over many years before it was written down, this was due to a practice commonly done in the ancient world with great efficiency............this is something that the person telling you , always fail to mention ............. so to say it cant work for the bible you must admit that it cant work for the quran otherwise you are committing a fallacy

for the Quran i can say without the shadow of a doubt that it was preserved soundly in its original form since the time of the Prophet(saw).

the same can be said of the bible ...

you both are correct but its not all that true
because you both understand fully of what u have been fed as a child or religious teachings

i cant blame u or make jokes of u. for what u don't no
i can sense u both believe in what u was thought strongly

it boil's down to this man is a treat to its own-self man put the words of god together
we can never trust man

so never put your head on a block to defend what man put together

just have faith that u will b forgiven for others mistakes

simple love him with your heart tats all u need is so easy i can c y its a big issue in this man controlled world