The Religion Discussion

[sMASH]

why should i try to be a good person? what is the achievement of that?

[mediahouse]

^ from MG Man's purely scientific standpoint both good people and evil people ALL can get sick and ALL die
there is no scientific proof of a heaven or hell or even of reincarnation

So then being good and pious/ religious makes no sense in this world? Since the wicked go unpunished?

[Chimera]

^ from MG Man's purely scientific standpoint both good people and evil people ALL can get sick and ALL die
there is no scientific proof of a heaven or hell or even of reincarnation

So then being good and pious/ religious makes no sense in this world? Since the wicked go unpunished?

what being good have to do with being religious?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

why should i try to be a good person? what is the achievement of that?

it's a matter of morality

evolution will show that altruistic genes, selected through the process of evolution, give people natural empathy.

Tell me something, would you commit murder, rape or robbery if you knew that no God existed? the vast majority of people would honestly answer NO. Most may not pass a polygraph test if their answer was YES.

Check this:

Morality

The development of modern morality is a process closely tied to the Sociocultural evolution of different peoples of humanity. Some evolutionary biologists, particularly sociobiologists, believe that morality is a product of evolutionary forces acting at an individual level and also at the group level through group selection (though to what degree this actually occurs is a controversial topic in evolutionary theory).

Some sociobiologists contend that the set of behaviors that constitute morality evolved largely because they provided possible survival and/or reproductive benefits (i.e. increased evolutionary success). Humans consequently evolved "pro-social" emotions, such as feelings of empathy or guilt, in response to these moral behaviors.

In this respect, morality is not absolute, but relative and constitutes any set of behaviors that encourage human cooperation based on their ideology to get ideologic unity.

Biologists contend that all social animals, from ants to elephants, have modified their behaviors, by restraining immediate selfishness in order to improve their evolutionary fitness.

Human morality, though sophisticated and complex relative to other animals, is essentially a natural phenomenon that evolved to restrict excessive individualism that could undermine a group's cohesion and thereby reducing the individuals' fitness. On this view, moral codes are ultimately founded on emotional instincts and intuitions that were selected for in the past because they aided survival and reproduction

an example of "morality is not absolute" in that human morality is evolving with us: you can just take a look at slavery. Up to just over 100 years ago slavery was commonplace and deemed morally correct, even by religious standards - in fact in most religious texts (Bible, Qu'ran, Torah etc) slavery is acceptable and there are even guidelines on how to treat your slaves. Now-a-days though slavery is considered inhumane and evil. So clearly you can see that it is not religion that tells us how to be moral, it is our own nature.

[Scoobert Bauce]

*walks in with another Pepsi*

Thread still going, huh? Hm

*drops pepsi can on ground and kicks it*

*exit thread*

[Kasey]

^ from MG Man's purely scientific standpoint both good people and evil people ALL can get sick and ALL die
there is no scientific proof of a heaven or hell or even of reincarnation

So then being good and pious/ religious makes no sense in this world? Since the wicked go unpunished?

No backsidelal. We do good because it is for the betterment for humanity as a whole, not because we feel we might be punished, or rewarded.

So the only reason u do good is to get points in gods eyes, and the only reason u dont do bad is because u fear the punishment?

[d spike]

No backsidelal.

Sig material. Definitely sig material.

So the only reason u do good is to get points in gods eyes, and the only reason u dont do bad is because u fear the punishment?

Drags up an old argument that was played out here before.
Kasey is right: where is the personal morality in this situation? That one is only moral due to the believed existence of a deity shows a life ruled by fear... not love of others - of which true morality does spring.

[illumin@ti]

Long time ago i realized this was just a ploy for the 'believers' to 'score points' n knock up post counts. Waiting on Megaduck to provide evidence for his claims might be just as rational as believing in santa. comical and entertaining it is indeed

[Chimera]

but the believers have done anything but score points lol. this whole thread is them contradicting and embarassing themselves.

[illumin@ti]

sssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhh doh tell dem dat..... issa seeecret!!

[sMASH]

so, just taking biology into consideration, morality and ethics and values would have developed in a society of biological entities due to the situation where each individual realizes that when the well fare of the group is placed before the well fare of the individual, that there is more prosperity collectively than individually. interesting.

but i also think about at the unicellular level. how come a cell an think to cooporate with another cell?

[mediahouse]

by the way duane what religion you follow? i assume hindu because of your name
or are u an atheist

[Chimera]

Billy Joel -

"I wasn't raised Catholic, but I used to go to Mass with my friends, and I viewed the whole business as a lot of very enthralling hocus-pocus. There's a guy hanging upon the wall in the church, nailed to a cross and dripping blood, and everybody's blaming themselves for that man's torment, but I said to myself, 'Forget it. I had no hand in that evil. I have no original sin. There’s no blood of any sacred martyr on my hands. I pass on all of this."

"I believe that all important matters have to be settled here, not in the clouds somewhere after we kick off."

-Billy Joel

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

by the way duane what religion you follow? i assume hindu because of your name
or are u an atheist

Maybe I am, maybe I'm not - I don't think of myself as an atheist at all.

I am only moderating the topic by offering different points of view. What is the point of a debate where everyone agrees?

if a point is made and you do not agree with it then you should counter with a valid argument - this is healthy discussion

[sensiman]

by the way duane what religion you follow? i assume hindu because of your name
or are u an atheist

Maybe I am, maybe I'm not - I don't think of myself as an atheist at all.

I am only moderating the topic by offering different points of view. What is the point of a debate where everyone agrees?

if a point is made and you do not agree with it then you should counter with a valid argument - this is healthy discussion

True, but what happens when your counter with a valid argument is countered by an invalid argument based on conviction backed up by subjective evidence.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

True, but what happens when your counter with a valid argument is countered by an invalid argument based on conviction backed up by subjective evidence.

clearly you get a 200 page thread like this one!

[d spike]

by the way duane what religion you follow? i assume hindu because of your name

Duane is a hindu name????

[Kasey]

boodoosingh?

[sMASH]

wait, so if morals and ethics developed as a way for groups of biological entities to better propagate their group, then, homosexuality is not moral nor ethical.

[d spike]

wait, so if morals and ethics developed as a way for groups of biological entities to better propagate their group, then, homosexuality is not moral nor ethical.

That sounds very logical (I like it, as it shows a thinking mind )... but unfortunately, it isn't - due to the complexity of the social group itself.
Clearly, there are differences within the group, and it is quite likely that the diversity of the group assists in its survival.
Your point is only logical if it refers to the bulk of the group - if everyone wuz ah bullah, den we eh go have no chirren - but this is obviously not the case when one views the overpopulation problem...
That would be like saying that a group would not survive if all its members were plumbers (no other needs being addressed) therefore being a plumber is wrong.

[d spike]

Perhaps...

...homosexuality is God's way of dealing with the overpopulation problem (allowing individuals to satiate their sexual desires without creating more individuals)... otherwise their pent-up passions might cause more horrific turmoil in society...

[MG Man]

by the way duane what religion you follow? i assume hindu because of your nameor are u an atheist

that has to be one of the shallowest statements made in this thread

[bluefete]

by the way duane what religion you follow? i assume hindu because of your nameor are u an atheist

that has to be one of the shallowest statements made in this thread

Agreed.

Also much used to assume they know what a person looks like!!!!

But aren't the media(houses) like that, anyway????

I mean even Moses' brother and sister were upset with him because he married an Ethiopian woman. I guess they did not see her before.

[bluefete]

Perhaps...

...homosexuality is God's way of dealing with the overpopulation problem (allowing individuals to satiate their sexual desires without creating more individuals)... otherwise their pent-up passions might cause more horrific turmoil in society...

Nice try there, Spikey, old chap!! Good tongue firmly in cheek!

But heteros can do the same "without creating more individuals" as well.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

wait, so if morals and ethics developed as a way for groups of biological entities to better propagate their group, then, homosexuality is not moral nor ethical.

well it obviously does not help to propagate the group!

excellent point but as D Spike said that is some bad logic though. Oral sex is not necessarily immoral or unethical, yet it too does not help to propagate the group.

swindling people out of their money is not moral or ethical, but it does help to promote the social status of some in their group, giving them a better chance at propagating their genes higher up in the social hierarchy - which in turn increases the chances of perpetuation.

you can't look at isolated cases, because then we'd be looking at people like mediahouse (who, based on his comments, is only moral and ethical because he fears God will punish him) as an example of the norm when infact it is the exception (i hope)

[d spike]

But heteros can do the same "without creating more individuals" as well.

...and...? ...so...?
How does that change the argument?


Okay...
...let me start by saying that I am not promoting homosexuality. Each of us is governed by what we think is right... you choose what you think is right for yourself.
So, all the holy rollers can uncock their Rebukenators 2000 and chill...
I am promoting logic.
When you can think clearly and rationally, then deciding what is right and wrong for oneself becomes easier.

That said, why is homosexuality wrong?
Apart from Abrahamic-originated religious thinking, are there any other arguments against it?
Many fellahs find it most repugnant, but as this is normally a symptom of latent homosexuality, let's not go there...

The fact remains, Smash's argument is the only realistic one... and in the days of small, wandering bands of hunter-gatherers, it could apply.
However, now it doesn't.

[mediahouse]

ok so if alluh ent believe in ah god what about supernatural stuff like obeah, spirits , jins etc?

[d spike]

In a world overrun by humans...

...clearly, propagation of the race is no longer a major way of making the quality of life better for God's people.

New methods of problem-solving are required for age-old problems that have yet to be solved... New problem-solving methods can best be discovered by those who naturally think differently...

I will leave the listing of all the known homos who have made our lives better for another time, and thus save the lives of all the holy rollers who are squirming in their seats, about to pop an aneurysm...

[K74T]

mediahouse, how can you assume one's religion by their name?

[mediahouse]

mediahouse, how can you assume one's religion by their name?

if ah man name mohammed baksh would you say hes a hindu? of course not
just like is ah man name ganesh maraj you wont say hes a muslim now would you?
so if duan title happens to be boodasingh then possibly he can be hindu or bhuddist .
thats a fair assumption .

Plus many times i tell people my name and they say " oh so u is ah muslim"

so whats your point ??