The Religion Discussion

[megadoc1]

the god of the quran did not understand what Paul was saying?
"believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three"
Christians don't believe in three... someone was misinformed yo!

[d spike]

nope, u guys were, by paul

Show's over, folks. Move along. There's nothing else to see here.

If the god presented in the quran is the same God presented in the bible,
he should be all knowing,why then does the god presented in the quran
thinks that the Christians believe in three gods when in fact they only believe in one God?

Ummm... where in the Koran is this written?

[sMASH]

if u guys believe in three gods, then that is your right. if u believe in one god, which is your right as well, it is inline with what we believe.


"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except the One God." (Qur'an 5:73)

"...take not, with God, another object of worship, lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected." (Qur'an 17:39)
"...I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore, serve Me (and no other)..." (Qur'an 21:92)


every time some one says 'in jesus name' they make a separation or a distinction from the unitary god and simultaneously direct worship towards another object. we have been given clear instruction as to only direct worship and glory to the single unitary being of god, which created every thing.

so although saying that the father and son and holy ghost comprise the god head and is really one god, is nice, we are told that not even to worship him in different parts, but to direct worship to the single being that created it.
with this, we regard the present christian practice of praying in jesus name as worshiping something other than the creator of all things. u then say that in the beginning he was with god. by saying he was god also, does not negate the concept of being with, and being with means being separate entities in near proximity.

alrite, u believe that god is one, which according to us, is wonderful, but saying that jesus and the holy spirit are also god, makes it unclear. unclear in that we have a clearer instruction of how to say that god is one. so clear it is unforgiving in how specifically it defines the unit of worship.

i am sure that u must agree that saying that god is the creator of all things and him alone is deserved of worship, nothing else is to be worshiped as nothing else has power besides what is afforded to it from the one god, is quite clear in its DEFINITION of the singularity of god and the limitation of worship.
and when u compare it to god is one, father son and holy ghost, that the later, grammatically seems to mean more than one.

i believe that god is one, but when a jw passes and wants to tell me that the holy ghost is also god and u guys say that jesus is god, all of u still sayin that god is one. what i have now, is a lot more clearer than that, and a lot easier to follow, and simple to grasp. even an atheist can understand the concept, even if they dont believe it, they can still appreciate it.

[megadoc1]

"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except the One God." (Qur'an 5:73)
you added that part in there, if not I can stiil accuse you of deceitfulness
if trinity is really in there, why did you personally accuse me of worshiping three gods?


every time some one says 'in jesus name' they make a separation or a distinction from the unitary god and simultaneously direct worship towards another object. we have been given clear instruction as to only direct worship and glory to the single unitary being of god, which created every thing.
the person who uses Jesus name learnt from the bible that he is God who created everything
john 1-4....... doesn't he deserve worship as creator?

so although saying that the father and son and holy ghost comprise the god head and is really one god, is nice, we are told that not even to worship him in different parts, but to direct worship to the single being that created it. Christians do not worship God in different parts they worship God as one, whether they say Father, Son or Holy Spirit

with this, we regard the present christian practice of praying in jesus name as worshiping something other than the creator of all things. and thats where you get it wrong Christians worship Jesus, who created all things and is the giver of life.... the creator


u then say that in the beginning he was with god. by saying he was god also, does not negate the concept of being with, and being with means being separate entities in near proximity. no because the passage went on to say that he is God..only one

alrite, u believe that god is one, which according to us, is wonderful, but saying that jesus and the holy spirit are also god, makes it unclear. its not unclear, when you take the bible in it's entirety,you see that each carries the attribute that can be only held by one

unclear in that we have a clearer instruction of how to say that god is one. so clear it is unforgiving in how specifically it defines the unit of worship. but then you say God is not God by excluding Jesus

i am sure that u must agree that saying that god is the creator of all things and him alone is deserved of worship, nothing else is to be worshiped as nothing else has power besides what is afforded to it from the one god, is quite clear in its DEFINITION of the singularity of god and the limitation of worship.ok yes but we learnt that Jesus is the one that created all things john 1:3 so he deserves worship because he is creator


and when u compare it to god is one, father son and holy ghost, that the later, grammatically seems to mean more than one.yeah but thats not the case, hence the reason I asked If allah got it wrong too

i believe that god is one, but when a jw passes and wants to tell me that the holy ghost is also god and u guys say that jesus is god, all of u still sayin that god is one. what i have now, is a lot more clearer than that, and a lot easier to follow, and simple to grasp.
so its a matter of convenience now?

even an atheist can understand the concept, even if they dont believe it, they can still appreciate it. to what avail?

its easier for you to claim that the bible is corrupt when faced with the differences
of the both the bible and the quran

[sMASH]

the translation into english does not directly mean trinity, but it is for three, and the rest of the verses which says three, is in reference to the concept of the christians at that time saying father son and holy ghost.

u say god is one yet still say father son and holy ghost, we consider that three, therefore not as monotheist as us.


if the worship of the father son and holy spirit is the same thing being as it is one god, how did one die, the other turn in disgust and the last come on the first after the supposed death?
say it all u want, we are still guided to say that god is one and worship him in no parts,, as in father nor son nor holy ghost.

jesus was on earth as a word from god, thus a creation, and we do not worship the creation, only the creator, and in no other form or fashion.

we exclude jesus in practise because of instruction to not worship any creation, and jesus is a creation.

i do not understand what u say by 'each carries an attribute which can only be held by one'

to me, god is one, and the sentence 'god is one-father son and holy ghost' does not demonstrate one-ness of god like
'Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begets not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (Surah 112)'

comparing the two, the latter is more 'one god' than the former. is not a matter of convenience, is a matter of comparison.

the point of an atheist being able to grasp the idea being demonstrated by the words, even though they would not believe it, is not important as such except that it shows how simple the concept is,

[megadoc1]

the translation into english does not directly mean trinity, but it is for three, and the rest of the verses which says three, is in reference to the concept of the christians at that time saying father son and holy ghost.
good so my quetion was/is, was the god of the bible misinformed ? did he not understand what the Christians believe just like you do? because Christians believe in one God

u say god is one yet still say father son and holy ghost, we consider that three, therefore not as monotheist as us. we consider it one therefore thats monotheist for us


if the worship of the father son and holy spirit is the same thing being as it is one god, how did one die, the other turn in disgust and the last come on the first after the supposed death? I don't know what you mean by turn in disgust

say it all u want, we are still guided to say that god is one and worship him in no parts,, as in father nor son nor holy ghost.so you are saying that Christians worship God in parts?do you have proof of this?

jesus was on earth as a word from god, thus a creation, and we do not worship the creation, only the creator, and in no other form or fashion.
jesus was on earth as the word of God,the creator,we worship the creator

we exclude jesus in practise because of instruction to not worship any creation, and jesus is a creation.Jesus is the creator

i do not understand what u say by 'each carries an attribute which can only be held by one'
example: there can only be one creator,if Jesus is the creator and God is the creator it means that Jesus is God,
if God is the first and the last and Jesus is the first and the last it means Jesus is God
throughout the bible there are similarities like these that can only be held by one

to me, god is one, and the sentence 'god is one-father son and holy ghost' does not demonstrate one-ness of god like
'Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begets not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (Surah 112)'


comparing the two, the latter is more 'one god' than the former. is not a matter of convenience, is a matter of comparison.I like comparison I am going to do a comparison of the Gabriel of the bible and the "gabriel" of the quran next

the point of an atheist being able to grasp the idea being demonstrated by the words, even though they would not believe it, is not important as such except that it shows how simple the concept is,concept simplicity does not implies truth

[bluefete]

sMASH: Does the Qu'ran really promise virgins to the dead / resurrected??

I can't find it anywhere.

[sMASH]

^^ really? read the qur'an again!

[d spike]

sMASH: Does the Qu'ran really promise virgins to the dead / resurrected??

I can't find it anywhere.

Don't fret, bluey. I'm sure there's hope for you yet...

[megadoc1]

The Gabriel of the bible and the “Gabriel” of the Quran


In all accounts of Gabriel in the bible, we see that he was always interested in the comfort of those he encounters for example:

And I heard a man's voice from the Ulai calling, "Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision." As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. "Son of man," he said to me, "understands that the vision concerns the time of the end." While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet. (Daniel 8:16-18)

But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard....Zechariah asked the angel, "How can I be sure of this? I am an old man and my wife is well along in years." The angel answered, "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. (Luke 1:13,18-19)

In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The Angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. (Luke 1:26-30)

In the three incidents that Angel Gabriel first appeared, he sought to allay the fears of those seeing him. And he did not leave them in disarray and confusion, neither did they think he was a demon





But here we see muhammed suspected that “Gabriel” was a demon from the begining but who wouldn’t ? After having ones a$$ handed to him in a cave anyone would be afraid because that being cannot be from God, islam seems to have had a violent start.
what is interesting is If God know you can't read why should his ministering servants force you to do it? that's excessive force YO!

suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read.
The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! ............

Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the Sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over)

.

"While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).'

poor fellow I feel for this man

The test done to determine if the being was an angel was done by kadijah

O son of my uncle, are you able to tell me about your visiter, when he comes to you?" He replied that he could, and she asked him to tell her when he came. So when Gabriel came to him, as he said to Khadija, 'This is Gabriel who has just come to me.' `Get up, O son of my uncle,' she said, `and sit by my left thigh.' The apostle did so, and she said, `Can you see him?' `Yes,' he said. She said, `Then turn around and sit on my right thigh.' He did so, and she said, `Can you see him?' When he said that he could she asked him to move and sit in her lap. When he had done this she again asked if he could see him, and when he said yes, she disclosed her form and cast aside her veil while the apostle was sitting in her lap. Then she said, `Can you see him?' And he replied, `No.' She said, `O son of my uncle, rejoice and be of good heart, by God he is an angel and not a satan.'

what kinda test is that? it is clear that Muhammad was falsely convinced that the being was Gabriel, the fact that an encounter with an "angel" could lead one to contemplating suicide says a lot

that being is not the Gabriel of the bible

[d spike]

Smash, faith is a gift from God.
If you were able to understand the concept of the Trinity, then you wouldn't be a Muslim. You are given what you need, to do that which you can, wherever you have been sent.
Now, stop harassing megadoc into explaining that which he has obviously no idea about... his inadequate and errant explanations are now getting painful to read.
I might also point out to you, that even if you were presented with an adequate explanation... what would you do with it? Would your belief system allow you to even consider appreciating the concepts that are required for an understanding of a Triune God? Listen, even though Christians hold to the belief in the Trinity, most of them can't explain it - as ably demonstrated by megadoc. As a good Muslim, do you expect to understand it?

Megadoc, if I were a Christian who depended on you to explain my belief to me, I would be seriously considering Buddhism all now. As I have been telling you ever since you started banging this out-of-tune gong of yours, find a teacher of your faith, and go study the tenets you claim to hold - and note I used the word "teacher", and not some brain-washed, street-corner ranter. Return with your soap-box when you know what you are talking about.
(And pasting up stuff from the internet just shows that you can paste up stuff from the internet.)

[d spike]

it is clear that Muhammad was falsely convinced that the being was Gabriel, the fact that an encounter with an "angel" could lead one to contemplating suicide says a lot

What is that supposed to mean?
How much different is that from thinking that one is going to die after seeing an angel, which is a fairly common supposition found in the bible?
(And exactly how did you get to this idea based on the passage you quoted?)

[megadoc1]

it is clear that Muhammad was falsely convinced that the being was Gabriel, the fact that an encounter with an "angel" could lead one to contemplating suicide says a lot

What is that supposed to mean? that something was wrong
How much different is that from thinking that one is going to die after seeing an angel, which is a fairly common supposition found in the bible? well for starters none of them in the bible attempted to kill themselves after an encounter with Gabriel, the fear was there but was quickly allayed by the angel,in Muhammad case he was afraid, his fear was not allayed,instead, he actually got a whooping. That's thug life! that angel must have came from a gangster god or something...
thinking you are gonna die and contemplating suicide are opposite ideas

(And exactly how did you get to this idea based on the passage you quoted?)
I like that one.....

Megadoc, if I were a Christian who depended on you to explain my belief to me, I would be seriously considering Buddhism all now.

what an assertion! a Christian understands that his position with God thru Jesus is not dependent on an explanation like what is being expected on here.
you keep mouthing of that I don't understand what the trinity is, why not tell us so we don't waste more time speaking about /against what we don't know about?
why not settle that? don't be on me if you can't do any better concerning the trinity...

[d spike]

(And exactly how did you get to this idea based on the passage you quoted?)
I like that one.....

How nice. Make a cute remark and not answer the question.

Megadoc, if I were a Christian who depended on you to explain my belief to me, I would be seriously considering Buddhism all now.

what an assertion!
What? That someone would depend on you to understand Christianity? I agree, it is a ludicrous idea.
a Christian understands that his position with God thru Jesus is not dependent on an explanation like what is being expected on here.
I was referring to your self-advertised ignorance, not the basis of a person's faith.
It is human to attempt to understand that which one considers real. While I agree that acceptance is more important that understanding where religion is concerned, blind faith is dangerous when it supersedes rationalization in a situation where human intelligence can provide the right answer.

you keep mouthing of that I don't understand what the trinity is, why not tell us so we don't waste more time speaking about /against what we don't know about?

You have clearly no recollection of what I used to tell you. (What am I saying? You never paid attention to anything I said anyway.) Just as I used to tell you, I wouldn't waste my time putting up targets for you to spit at - and anyone else, for that matter.
This forum, by it's very nature, is not ideally suited to the teaching of concepts in depth. Light conversation, bantering, yes.
I only wish to do two things here: firstly, let others know that your "explanations" are severely lacking in most respects, and thus, (and secondly) encourage them - if they truly desire understanding - to seek answers from a better educated source.

why not settle that? don't be on me if you can't do any better concerning the trinity...

My dear boy, you are the one who decided to display "explanations" - I am merely providing a critique. The onus of veracity is the burden of the one who attempts to teach. (As long as you continue to produce that which falls from the wrong end of a duck, I will continue to warn folks not to step in it.)
For reasons stated a long time ago, I would hesitate to venture an explanation of such a contentious nature in this environment. (In your ignorance and mulishness you have yet to realize the following, which is among the first points taught in this field!) What would your explanations achieve, in this environment? You won't affirm the faith of those who believe already, and you will not convince those who believe otherwise, as religion is ultimately based on faith, not logic.
To make it worse, your empty-headed yammering will only serve to annoy the former, antagonize the latter, and confuse both.
Learn about what it is you want to achieve here, acquire knowledge (and hopefully, in time, wisdom)... then attempt to teach.
Just echoing the howlings and rantings of frothy-jawed preachers, whose religion is based on equal measures of blind faith, ignorance and pride, is only going to damage, rupture and destroy the links that bind us together as God's children.

Go git yer learn on.

[d spike]

Just because one religion sees a particular concept as important does not mean it is important to all. (The concept of the Trinity is another good example.) If the two faiths do not share a concept, then certainly one of them will not be able to "relate" to that concept. Your wanting to discuss such a concept is precisely what is meant by stressing/promoting the differences that exist between such faiths.

Go ahead and continue stressing the differences, rather than the similarities... you'll find the disharmony and discord that you're looking for.

This is a public forum.
Yes, everyone has the Right to speak freely... Free speech and the Right to yowl about one's Religious beliefs, yay, yay, yay.
But what many fail to realize, is that with Rights come Responsibilities.
While one has a Right, and can exercise it, one also has the Responsibility to ensure that in the exercising of that Right, one does not affect or disturb others unduly... which brings me to the point I wish to make.
If one is REALLY convinced that one's religion is the true one, all else being false, then while one has the Right to promote it in public, one also has the Responsibility to not wield that religion in a manner that would encourage others to denigrate it... and that would also mean that one would have the Responsibility to educate oneself about one's religion, so that one's arguments would not cause error,
...and especially if this religion is based on brotherly love and equality, HOW COULD YOU USE YOUR RELIGION TO DIVIDE AND ANTAGONIZE OTHERS?

Clearly this person is NOT a Christian... a person filled with only pride in being able to claim adherence to a seemingly favoured religion, is far from being a believer. Pride, not faith, is their chief motivating factor.
Faith, true faith, leads to understanding... blind faith negates understanding. Blind faith is created by ignorance, affirms ignorance, and deifies it.

Smash, faith is a gift from God.
If you were able to understand the concept of the Trinity, then you wouldn't be a Muslim. You are given what you need, to do that which you can, wherever you have been sent.

I might also point out to you, that even if you were presented with an adequate explanation... what would you do with it? Would your belief system allow you to even consider appreciating the concepts that are required for an understanding of a Triune God? Listen, even though Christians hold to the belief in the Trinity, most of them can't explain it - as ably demonstrated by megadoc. As a good Muslim, do you expect to understand it?

Smash, respond seriously please. Do you WANT to understand the concepts that underlie the Christian belief in the Trinity? Or were you just baiting megadoc?

[turbohead]

why waste your energy to even try to explain any logic sense to megadoc, and those recollection of the said encounter with angel gabriel and Muhammed(saw), you forgot to mention where kadhija also carried him to her uncle who was a learnt man in the jewish faith and on hearing this encounter he proclaimed that this was indeed the final messenger sent to us from Allaah. btw which book did you copy and paste from.

up to this point i have given mega a lil homework and up to now still cannot produce it, you talk of Jesus being the creator, but it is still clear cut that he was a creation, if you go back to my comment about the cd player logic you would understand this concept,

unless you could show me proof that Jesus said i am God worship me, or where he says 'pray to me for salvation, if you do that it will go straight to God cause we are all the same being.'
then i would take you serious and i told you before dont cast aspersions on anyone beliefs if you have no sound evidence to do so

[d spike]

why waste your energy to even try to explain any logic sense to megadoc

I realize that you have not gone back and read the earlier posts/threads in which megadoc and I tangled - not that I blame you, as it makes tiresome reading - but if you had, you would have realized that my remonstrations, though directed at megadoc and his ilk, are not intended to change their minds. The blind and rabid fervour that devours whatever rationalization those sad folk might have been capable of, ensures that they become deaf to all except that which furthers their cause.
The main reason why I respond, is not for the sake of the antagonists, but for the sake of those who might mistake the misogynistic rantings of those who claim belief for the actual belief itself.
Religion itself is a beautiful thing, man building a relationship with that which put him here... It is sad to stand and watch fools shred that which greater men gave their all to build.

up to this point i have given mega a lil homework

megadoc, like the good, little fundamentalist that he is, will ignore any and all that does not agree with him. If I should explain and expound a tenet that he holds, he would heap praise on my words... if I shatter one of them, he would sneer at my ignorance. He sees nothing but a book - a book he reads, but doesn't understand.

unless you could show me proof that Jesus said i am God worship me ...then i would take you serious

For someone that claims to be attached to a religion, you seem to lack a basic understanding of faith - believing in that which cannot be proven. Have you ever seen Allah? Have you held any discussion with him? No. You read about him in a book. What about Mohammed? Have you ever met him either? Anybody who has told you about either, has only known about them from reading a book, or from the lips of someone who read the same book.
The creation is but proof of a creator... anything else is either faith or fantasy.
Megadoc spurned rational thinking and logic when I first argued with him. He put his faith in blind faith... blind faith not being faith at all, but a shoddy disguise for contented ignorance.
Though it may seem faith exists only at the whim of logic, faith is a gift from the divine, and it guides logic... it is actually the driving force behind the working of logic within the educated mind, steering the human intellect towards the divine.
Faith guides logic in the mind of one who can cope with both. Do you expect to logically accept or even consider proof that would disprove what you believe to be true, but could never prove?

dont cast aspersions on anyone beliefs if you have no sound evidence to do so

Even if he does have evidence, which in his opinion is sound, that is still no reason to "cast aspersions" on anyone's beliefs... and that goes for all others as well.
A person believes, in spite of, not due to, physical evidence - for his belief is not in the physical, but the divine.

[megadoc1]

those recollection of the said encounter with angel gabriel and Muhammed(saw), you forgot to mention where kadhija also carried him to her uncle who was a learnt man in the jewish faith he was a christianand on hearing this encounter he proclaimed Really?that this was indeed the final messenger sent to us from Allaah.
he said that??? lets take a look

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.

the uncle ,who was a christian, suggested ,that it could be Gabriel that Muhammad encountered,as Muhammad was certain it was a demon.. no where in the text metioned his uncle speaking anything about a final messenger,(that is the last thing that would exit the mouth of a christian.....) the only time Muhammad knew anything about Gabriel is through this Christian uncle of his and the Being only called himself "gabriel" after Muhammad learnt about Gabriel and after having the being certified by the bogus test done by kadijah, in desperation

[sMASH]

sry, had a death in the family(first child of all us cousins and just 6 years old, born with a serious heart malformation and just could not keep up the fight any more),,, and had to help out the moderate christian side, because the serious christian side (with the church in their yard) could not miss church on sunday and had a birthday party to attend today.

even went so far as to get chankarsingh ( trini version of hagee) to send one of his pastors to perform the service.

am tired, and would respond by end of week, cause mankind need to earn the meat and the potatoes.

[megadoc1]

sorry for your lost pal .. it helps to know that the child is with God
see you when you recover

[QG]

if u guys believe in three gods, then that is your right. if u believe in one god, which is your right as well, it is inline with what we believe.


"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except the One God." (Qur'an 5:73)

"...take not, with God, another object of worship, lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected." (Qur'an 17:39)
"...I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore, serve Me (and no other)..." (Qur'an 21:92)


every time some one says 'in jesus name' they make a separation or a distinction from the unitary god and simultaneously direct worship towards another object. we have been given clear instruction as to only direct worship and glory to the single unitary being of god, which created every thing.

so although saying that the father and son and holy ghost comprise the god head and is really one god, is nice, we are told that not even to worship him in different parts, but to direct worship to the single being that created it.
with this, we regard the present christian practice of praying in jesus name as worshiping something other than the creator of all things. u then say that in the beginning he was with god. by saying he was god also, does not negate the concept of being with, and being with means being separate entities in near proximity.

alrite, u believe that god is one, which according to us, is wonderful, but saying that jesus and the holy spirit are also god, makes it unclear. unclear in that we have a clearer instruction of how to say that god is one. so clear it is unforgiving in how specifically it defines the unit of worship.

i am sure that u must agree that saying that god is the creator of all things and him alone is deserved of worship, nothing else is to be worshiped as nothing else has power besides what is afforded to it from the one god, is quite clear in its DEFINITION of the singularity of god and the limitation of worship.
and when u compare it to god is one, father son and holy ghost, that the later, grammatically seems to mean more than one.

i believe that god is one, but when a jw passes and wants to tell me that the holy ghost is also god and u guys say that jesus is god, all of u still sayin that god is one. what i have now, is a lot more clearer than that, and a lot easier to follow, and simple to grasp. even an atheist can understand the concept, even if they dont believe it, they can still appreciate it.

Just want to add something bro...We Christians do serve One God and only One God!! Even Jesus said to thank God and not him, for all things are possible through God.

Do not be confused when we talk about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit...non Christians will not truly understand THAT CONCEPT and I don't blame them at all.
And yes the different Religions in Christianity can confused any non-Christian because of the Doctrines they follow.

[QG]

sry, had a death in the family(first child of all us cousins and just 6 years old, born with a serious heart malformation and just could not keep up the fight any more),,, and had to help out the moderate christian side, because the serious christian side (with the church in their yard) could not miss church on sunday and had a birthday party to attend today.

even went so far as to get chankarsingh ( trini version of hagee) to send one of his pastors to perform the service.

am tired, and would respond by end of week, cause mankind need to earn the meat and the potatoes.

Please accept my condolences!

[16 cycles]

m.doc - those vids show only one side of an argument....i don't think that is fair....

[d spike]

m.doc - those vids show only one side of an argument....i don't think that is fair....

Though I have no idea what the video clips said (as my stone-age PC with jumper cable connections is unable to run dem t'ing) it is quite normal in a debate to only project one side of an argument, leaving the rebuttal to be done by those who support a differing view.
(And, after all, do you actually think that megadoc would take a balanced view in a religious argument, based on all that he has said?)

Megadoc, is it possible for you to summarize what was said on the video clips?

[megadoc1]

m.doc - those vids show only one side of an argument....i don't think that is fair....

it seems unfair but its not, especially when Muslim scholars avoid that guy and his show

Megadoc, is it possible for you to summarize what was said on the video clips?

the videos are from a live outreach program in the Arabic world revealing the truth about Islam and bringing Muslims to Christ
http://islamexplained.com/

the ones I posted are about
Arabic scholars and researchers looking into the life of Muhammad
and his encounter with the creature in the cave, which in their view was not angel Gabriel
based on the fact that the creature abused Muhammad , had him hallucinated,have him wanting to commit suicide,observing the flawed verification tests done by kadijah,his familiarity with the jinn before the cave incident and much more

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

so what you're saying is "I more right than you because I believe I more right"?

[megadoc1]

if that works for you

[turbohead]

very good debate to follow up for a lil knowledge. 1 of many parts.

this here is the ending of surah maida ch5 v110-120. very beautiful words of Allaah. we muslims have sound proof where Jesus would deny such accusations of Godhood. where's the contradiction there? the link for the entire chapter

http://www.muslimconverts.com/quran/Nob ... urah5.html

110. (Remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection). "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with Rûh­ul­Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)] so that you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and when I taught you writing, Al­Hikmah (the power of understanding), the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel); and when you made out of the clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, and you healed those born blind, and the lepers by My Permission, and when you brought forth the dead by My Permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from you (when they resolved to kill you) since you came unto them with clear proofs, and the disbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' "

111. And when I (Allâh) put in the hearts of Al-Hawârîeen (the disciples) [of 'Iesa (Jesus)] to believe in Me and My Messenger, they said: "We believe. And bear witness that we are Muslims."

112. (Remember) when Al-Hawârîûn (the disciples) said: "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Can your Lord send down to us a table spread (with food) from heaven?" 'Iesa (Jesus) said: "Fear Allâh, if you are indeed believers."

113. They said: "We wish to eat thereof and to be stronger in Faith, and to know that you have indeed told us the truth and that we ourselves be its witnesses."

114. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Allâh, our Lord! Send us from heaven a table spread (with food) that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a festival and a sign from You; and provide us sustenance, for You are the Best of sustainers."

115. Allâh said: "I am going to send it down unto you, but if any of you after that disbelieves, then I will punish him with a torment such as I have not inflicted on anyone among (all) the 'Alamîn (mankind and jinns)."

116. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner­self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All­Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

117. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).

118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All­Mighty, the All­Wise ."

119. Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).

120. To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things.

if your God according to the bible could be disrespectful by calling out to his mother as "woman" when she wanted him to help out the situation a bit with the low on stocks and when he went in the temple and beat the priest out of it, that doesnt sound like a God of love and affection for sinners, then if and angel sent by him just wanna show the importance, signifcance and power of Quran by shaking up the messenger(saw) then by all means i see no problem.

[megadoc1]

lol................wait.. nevermind

116. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner­self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All­Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

not even Allah in the Qur'an understands the concept of the trinity,
he could never be God if he did not know that Christians worship one God

[Chimera]

m.doc - those vids show only one side of an argument....i don't think that is fair....

Though I have no idea what the video clips said (as my stone-age PC with jumper cable connections is unable to run dem t'ing) it is quite normal in a debate to only project one side of an argument, leaving the rebuttal to be done by those who support a differing view.
(And, after all, do you actually think that megadoc would take a balanced view in a religious argument, based on all that he has said?)

Megadoc, is it possible for you to summarize what was said on the video clips?

I can summarize it

God God God, Jesus is god, the one and only God, everyone else going to hell, even those who believe in Jesus, because they dont believe in MY version of Jesus. God God God, sinners,hell hell hell, Jesus Jesus Jesus.


*please note i didn't actually watch the video*