The Religion Discussion

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

i never made that claim either

concerning the vid ...it is just amazing to see people claim evolution as fact
even when the scientist admit that they don't know

Do not confuse "research" with "don't know"

you are using a blanket statement to pretend that scientists "don't know" about evolution.
They know alot already about evolution. yes there are things still to be discovered, but the same can be said about space, there is ALOT we do not know about in the vast expanse of space, does that mean space does not exist?

THERE IS A TON OF PROOF FOR EVOLUTION!
look at the number of fossils found showing evolution taking place on a macro scale with species having limbs change from fins to legs, from scales to feathers over millions of years. We ourselves have vestigial organs, appendages etc.

yes there is so far a missing link for our evolution from great apes, but do you just ignore the ALL the fossils found of neanderthals, australopithecus, homo erectus, homo sapiens. ALL the REAL evidence found of homonids and fossils showing where bone structure gradually changed over millions of years - you are just going to ignore ALL of that just because there is one missing link?

You can fill libraries with the REAL data found on evolution. Evolution is THE standard taught in schools, universities and its findings used by scientists and corporations to develop medicine for ourselves to use.

The whole concept of science is to find real evidence and question the theories that are already in place in search of the truth. This is why you will read that there is a dispute among scientists as to the exact evolutionary path our ancestors took to get to what we are today. They DO NOT dispute evolution itself, but without a time machine there will be different views on fossils found. This is science, it will dispute itself until the truth is discovered. It is not like religion where you are told what the truth is and you have faith and accept it.

Evolution IS NOT random, it is natural selection promoting the most efficient changes. A giraffe didn't just end up with a random long neck - the tall trees in it's habitat over millions of years promoted it's neck to be long to get to hard to reach leaves giving the animal an advantage in feeding and keeping the species from extinction. This is primary school stuff! Yet you comfort yourself with a blanket statement claiming scientists do not know

Survival of the fittest - in fact you can use religion as an example: Throughout history there have been hundreds of religions and thousands of religious beliefs, all have evolved from other older ones, discarding the weak points and poor doctrine but keeping the best, most robust dogma to become the more dominant religion in it's habitat, giving it the advantage against extinction. This is exactly how evolution works, but without human intervention.

[illumin@ti]

Same old Megaquack..... debating anything with this fella?? better yuh have a discussion with a rock. Sad part is, the rock might actually give u some kind of sensible feedback

[megadoc1]

duane I won't go any further with you and this
but I would say this ..... your example of evolution clearly shows destruction
and not creation...Evolution, at the most, is an idea about history, not observational science.
what the scientists are saying is philosophical (science needs to catch up with them)

what is proven in science is fact..... but the problem you have, is mixing the philosophical arguments as fact and committing a fallacy by using it as factual argument......
lets not waste one another's time, if evolution is fact it should be considered ridiculous to debate such in a faith based discussion....as long as you need to present it in a
faith based discussion says a lot.....who argues that the sky is blue?
I wont be responding to anything concerning the "fact" of evolution in any faith based ched except only, when you honestly put it across as a philosophical argument,
which is the proper way it should be done..... thank you

[megadoc1]

Same old Megaquack..... debating anything with this fella?? better yuh have a discussion with a rock. Sad part is, the rock might actually give u some kind of sensible feedback

then again there are those who are limited only to statements like these

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

duane I won't go any further with you and this
but I would say this ..... your example of evolution clearly shows destruction
and not creation...Evolution, at the most, is an idea about history, not observational science.
what the scientists are saying is philosophical (science needs to catch up with them)

what is proven in science is fact..... but the problem you have, is mixing the philosophical arguments as fact and committing a fallacy by using it as factual argument......
lets not waste one another's time, if evolution is fact it should be considered ridiculous to debate such in a faith based discussion....as long as you need to present it in a
faith based discussion says a lot.....who argues that the sky is blue?
I wont be responding to anything concerning the "fact" of evolution in any faith based ched except only, when you honestly put it across as a philosophical argument,
which is the proper way it should be done..... thank you

no breds, the fact that after 200+ pages you are still trying to argue against science that is taught in just about every school and university around the world is what says alot

[illumin@ti]

no breds, the fact that after 200+ pages you are still trying to argue against science that is taught in just about every school and university around the world is what says alot

Well according to Qvack he means that faith will cure the diseases that afflict man, faith will feed and clothe the needy, faith will give us the knowledge to advance humanity, feed them and keep them healthy, keep insects and pests off their crops etc etc etc....

[Humes]

Blatant ignorance or dishonesty. And that is the religion I supposed to admire.

[turbohead]

In Islam talks about Jesus preparing way for the Comforter...My muslim bro also pointed out to me in the Bible book of John! The Word Comforter!

However in the bible it means Holy Spirit and in Islam it means Muhammad the Messenger.

2 Questions:
1. If in Islam teaches that Jesus (Esa) prepared the way for Muhammed then why doesn't the Islam follow the way of Jesus ALSO, since Allah self sent Jesus (In Islam belief)?

2. Why in Islam do they Pick and Choose what script from the Bible to be used since they believe that man corrupted or change the scripted text from the original version?

Let me explain Question 2 a little bit (yes i have learned a lot from Islam)... In Islam they don't believe in 4 books of the Bible...Book of Luke, Mathew, John, and Mark (correct me of the 4 if I am worng) since those four deciples are said not to be in time when Jesus walked the earth.
If in Islam you said that the Bible we have today is not from the original text then why use certain verse from the bible??

for the first point it couldnt be the holy spirit as Jesus said that he had to go in order for the comforter to come to you. we no from previous record in the bible that the holy spirit was in the womb of elizabeth when Jesus was alive, also when he was being baptized the holy spirit was around. he also said that when he comes he would bring glad tidings of me and that which he speaks is wat he will hear. we all no that the quran was revealed through jibraeel. lastly he said that which he says will stay with you forever and did the Holy spirit bring anything that stayed forever preserved or was it not the greatest miracle of Allaah revealing the Quran to Muhammed and it being preserved with us forever.

for the first question it is a part of the belief of Muslims to believe in Jesus(pbuh) as a prophet of Allaah because his gospel wasnt preserved in its true form we cannot accept the bible that exist today, because Jesus didnt preach from a book he preached wat was inspried to him be God. there is no man alive today that could tell me that he has the authentic gospel according to Jesus(pbuh). Jesus wasnt sent to humanity but to the lost sheep of the house of israel. who was that the jews. he also said 'go ye not in the way of the gentiles and the samaritans.' nowhere in the bible does it show that Jesus claimed divinity. Jesus prayed to Allaah as is proven in the hebrew version of the bible. when he was on the cross he called out 'ellai ellai.' ask any christian or jew does this sound like jehovah jehovah? or jesus jesus? hebrew, aramic, and arabic are sister languages and this would be interpreted as Allaah Allaah. if Jesus was/is God why did he pray or who did he pray to? in the bible there are mentions of many sons of god. also if trying to say that Jesus said' i an my father are one, then later on didnt he also tell the disciples that we all are one, which means that you say not trinity but of forteen Gods? i could go on and on

as for the second question we believe in the 4 books as metioned in the quran. we dont believe what man has interpolated in the bible because as mentioned above there is not bible or book in the bible which starts the Gospel according to Jesus. how can i give credit to a book which speaks about a beast with eyes inside and eyes outside and i dont know how many more again it had, it also speaks of unicorns. if i am the author of a book wouldnt i put my last name so ppl would know of me. why is it the gospel according to john, mark, matther, luke, paul. they didnt have last names. is this credible? the one ting they couldnt change was the word of God cause it will go against their beliefs. once a verse of the bible is compared to that of the Quran and proved credible i will accept, otherwise no. in the Quran we believe in one God. the touch tone being suran ihklas

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him

once your God could be in comparison to these verses then you believe in the truth.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Say: He is The God, the One and Only!
The God, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him

once your God could be in comparison to these verses then you believe in the truth.

when you replace the Arabic word "Allah" with the english "The God", as I took the liberty to do, it shows that all religions believe in the SAME truth.

but as a popular quote states: "the devil is in the details"

[Chimera]

http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/1ps90O/ww ... batman.jpg

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

ABA Trading LTD, you would read that and say Batman wins, megadoc1 would read it and say Jesus wins - such is blind conviction on both parts.

[Chimera]

lol I would read it and find it extremely funny.

But I`m surprised ronald didn't hit him "but that Jesus character is possibly fictional also"

[turbohead]

for the sense of argument i agree with you duane, as muslims speaking to non muslims you could use the word God for understanding. but with the word God it could be played with to derive many words. you could make it plural by adding a 's' or female adding 'ess', godfather, godmother and so many more, but the word Allah is just. He proclaimed it as His name in the Quran. as mentioned in my previous post Jesus(pbuh) called out 'Ellai Ellai'. If your God falls into the catergory of this surah then by all means you believe in that of islamic beliefs. we dont throw out wat Jesus preached as falsehood merely what they interpolated as falsehood. i am awaiting mega's response to my previous post. i want him to show me where in the bible where Jesus(pbuh) said 'i am God worship me' and i will fall and prostrate with my christians bredrin, because Jesus fell and prostated, Moses fell and prostrated. this talk of Jesus in the bible and quran are 2 diff jesus is pure crap. he is one in the same as mentioned in both books. i said it before its not about argument of religion but to come to commons terms and work from there. if you have 10points and i have 10. 5 of each may be similar lets deal with that first. in the old testament why isnt it only mentioned of God and not Jesus the previous prophets worshiped and preached about. there is nowhere in the bible which i read that the followers of Jesus was called christians. to be a christian means you worship Christ as God which goes against you biblical teachings. as muslims we follow muhammed(saw) but to this day i havent heard of anyone who calls themselves muhammedians. we follow his lifestyle his teachings, his practices but dare not revere him as a God.

turbohead out

[sMASH]

u gone hoss?

is not so much as different person, but both books have different accounts of him.
the bible has him bawling on his mother and killing trees for spite. dying for u when he doesn't need to die, and dying a death that is not real because, as u say, he is everlasting so his death was not really a death.
that reminds me of monk. monk goes to solve a crime, then he encounters something which makes him do weird things. the whole show stops, the pace is changed to accommodate monk doing his weird thing which has no real input or place to the main plot of the show. it does not seem relevant to the show, as the show could have progressed along a comfortable pace without that little skit.

verily, we have created the heavens and expanding it continuously.

[megadoc1]

I'm bored

for the first point it couldnt be the holy spirit as Jesus said that he had to go in order for the comforter to come to you.and then he said thiis

but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

0f sin, because they believe not on me;

Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

I know you have a hard time with that

we no from previous record in the bible that the holy spirit was in the womb of elizabeth when Jesus was alive,
boy this is nonsense!!!!! Elizabeth gave birth to john the baptist about six months before Jesus was born.

also when he was being baptized the holy spirit was around. yes .. but this time jesus promised that he would be in us

"If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." John 14:15-18

he also said that when he comes he would bring glad tidings of me and that which he speaks is wat he will hear.so tell us what glad tidings did Muhammad bring about Jesus?
did he glorify Jesus as stated ? and why wasn't he hearing from Jesus but "Gabriel" ?



we all no that the quran was revealed through jibraeel. lastly he said that which he says will stay with you forever and did the Holy spirit bring anything that stayed forever preserved or was it not the greatest miracle of Allaah revealing the Quran to Muhammed and it being preserved with us forever.well we know the counselor surely was not Muhammad because he did not live forever,he did not come to the disciples as Jesus promised, because the time he came they were all dead.... 500 years late???? c'mon(that will make Jesus a fraud by the way),he did not glorify Jesus as stated by Jesus and whatever he said
where the quran is concerned, is contradictory to what Jesus did and say.



for the first question it is a part of the belief of Muslims to believe in Jesus(pbuh) as a prophet of Allaah because his gospel wasnt preserved in its true form we cannot accept the bible that exist today, but you just was using scripture from the bible to prove the quran???





because Jesus didnt preach from a book he preached wat was inspried to him be God.
muhamed didnt preach from a book he preached wat was told to him by "gabriel"




there is no man alive today that could tell me that he has the authentic gospel according to Jesus(pbuh). what kind a statement is this ???? do you know what is the gospel?
I could make a statment like yours,
"there is no man alive today that could tell me that he has the authentic quran according to Muhammad "
but for whatever the quran claim, is shown the be false by the bible so the only way the quran can be true, is if the bible is proven false hence the reason for your statement.
but my question now is who is alive today to say if the gospel is authentic or not? you?




Jesus wasnt sent to humanity but to the lost sheep of the house of israel. who was that the jews. he also said 'go ye not in the way of the gentiles and the samaritans.'
since you took this from the bible ,according to the bible when he was crucified he said "it is finished" and after his resurrection according to the bible

" These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.




nowhere in the bible does it show that Jesus claimed divinity.
yeah right!





Jesus prayed to Allaah as is proven in the hebrew version of the bible. when he was on the cross he called out 'ellai ellai.' ask any christian or jew does this sound like jehovah jehovah? or jesus jesus? hebrew, aramic, and arabic are sister languages and this would be interpreted as Allaah Allaah. if Jesus was/is God why did he pray or who did he pray to? in the bible there are mentions of many sons of god. also if trying to say that Jesus said' i an my father are one, then later on didnt he also tell the disciples that we all are one, which means that you say not trinity but of forteen Gods? i could go on and on
in you effort to spew such nonsense, you embraced the fact that Jesus was the one on the cross contrary to Islamic beliefs


as for the second question we believe in the 4 books as metioned in the quran. we dont believe what man has interpolated in the bible because as mentioned above there is not bible or book in the bible which starts the Gospel according to Jesus.
so are you looking for four books which starts "the gospel according to Jesus"?
could you tell me what is the gospel?



how can i give credit to a book which speaks about a beast with eyes inside and eyes outside and i dont know how many more again it had, it also speaks of unicorns.
lol @ giving credit




if i am the author of a book wouldnt i put my last name so ppl would know of me. why is it the gospel according to john, mark, matther, luke, paul. they didnt have last names. is this credible?
very credible according to the standards back then, just do some research and look up the way letters was written in the ancient world


the one ting they couldnt change was the word of God cause it will go against their beliefs.
????

once a verse of the bible is compared to that of the Quran and proved credible i will accept, otherwise no.
this is your whole argument summed up here


in the Quran we believe in one God. the touch tone being suran ihklas

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him

once your God could be in comparison to these verses then you believe in the truth.
great so now you are admitting what I have been saying all along
they were not the same God that we were speaking about.thanks for your confirmation

[megadoc1]

for the sense of argument i agree with you duane, as muslims speaking to non muslims you could use the word God for understanding. but with the word God it could be played with to derive many words. you could make it plural by adding a 's' or female adding 'ess', godfather, godmother and so many more, but the word Allah is just. He proclaimed it as His name in the Quran. as mentioned in my previous post Jesus(pbuh) called out 'Ellai Ellai'.lols ..... so the only time Jesus says "allah" throughout the bible, is when he was on the cross... is that what you are saying?
even though you believe it was not him on the cross?







we dont throw out wat Jesus preached as falsehood merely what they interpolated as falsehood.so what Jesus preached? who can say what he said from what he didn't?


i am awaiting mega's response to my previous post. i want him to show me where in the bible where Jesus(pbuh) said 'i am God worship me' and i will fall and prostrate with my christians bredrin, because Jesus fell and prostated, don't hold yuh breath




this talk of Jesus in the bible and quran are 2 diff jesus is pure crap.
sorry then, one is falsely misrepresented, we just can't seemed to agree which one it is


he is one in the same as mentioned in both books.nope not at all unless by your rules of
accepting some scripture and rejecting all the rest


i said it before its not about argument of religion but to come to commons terms and work from there.I beg to differ the only common term is that we look forward to an afterlife with our maker and thats all good


if you have 10points and i have 10. 5 of each may be similar lets deal with that first.
I am affraid you break your own rules


in the old testament why isnt it only mentioned of God and not Jesus the previous prophets worshiped and preached about. they did worship God and preached about him coming to redeem mankind from the book of genesis to Malachi,
he was always mentioned..if you mature up, I can show you jesus thru out the books of the old testament


there is nowhere in the bible which i read that the followers of Jesus was called christians. to be a christian means you worship Christ as God which goes against you biblical teachings.i don't think you read the bible
Act 11:25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:
Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Act 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, you Almost persuaded me to be a Christian.

1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.


people who follow christ are called disciples or christians they are obeying a command
given by Jesus which is "follow me"





as muslims we follow muhammed(saw) but to this day i havent heard of anyone who calls themselves muhammedians. we follow his lifestyle his teachings, his practices but dare not revere him as a God. because he isn't, however we believe Jesus is God so thing are a bit different with us which is obvious

turbohead out

[sMASH]

first of all, allah is the one and only, not the three and only.

the books are according to those dudes, but not penned by those dudes. more like other people who could write at the time and heard those guys say stuff, and wrote it down.

the teachings of jesus was his gospel, what u have are other person's accounts of his teachings, which were then organized, edited, translated, translated, hundreds of years later and only some is similar to what was at his time which was not his work any ways.

it is u that claim that he was crucified. this is from your book, and even in that u still say that he prayed to a higher power, or does he refer to himself in the third person like the rock? we eh embracing no fact breddah (in fact, i was released from that fact), fact is, for him to come back and lead a carnal nation, he has to be carnal, and so remain carnal, so has to NOT DIE!!!


jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity. in ur book u put things which seem so, but u misinterpret what it means, other wise the trinity would need to include adam (pbuh) and dawood (pbuh)
jesus (pbuh) saying 'i am the truth and the light and the way' is analogous to an ocifer saying 'i iz de law' and macandal dagga saying 'i iz de govament'

ur bible was not edited properly, there are still some things there which are true.


the mere fact that the gospel was according to john means that daiz john thing, and according to james, daiz james thing, and judas, daiz judas thing. he came with a message for the jews, repent cause he comin back.

jibraeel is an angel, in that case, effectively messenger service

the bible as it exist today is riddled with interjections from men. the only parts we would claim to be truth is those which are inline with our teachings. those which are opposite, are not truth, and those which can be inline but not made reference to, then they are nice stories which may have been made up. because the bible is a religious text, there would be bits and pieces that are what god originally intended in the first instance, so it is still respected, out of respect for those bits and pieces.

the qur'an glorified jesus, and his mother, and made clear what they were. the qur'an would stay for as long as it is needed, which would be till the end of jesus's reign, which would be the end.

the qur'an does not contradict jesus, ur bible has an erroneous account of him. imagine jesus, bawling up his mother and killing plants for spite and whipping people for earning their living.

[megadoc1]

first of all, allah is the one and only, not the three and only.
nowhere did I consider allah a trinity in fact nowhere did I mention the term trinity

the books are according to those dudes, but not penned by those dudes. more like other people who could write at the time and heard those guys say stuff, and wrote it down.
ok just as the quran ...your point is?

the teachings of jesus was his gospel,
no no no Jesus is the gospel thats what and who the messages are about

what u have are other person's accounts of his teachings,
what we have are the other persons account of what went down

which were then organized, edited, translated, translated, hundreds of years later and only some is similar to what was at his time which was not his work any ways.
bring yuh proof or shut up...I can say the same for the quran

it is u that claim that he was crucified. this is from your book, and even in that u still say that he prayed to a higher power,yes exactly but foolishly for you to desperately expound on him praying to allah you find your self accepting that he did it on the cross because that's where he uttered the words that you alleged were "allah"


or does he refer to himself in the third person like the rock?yes .even throughout the old testament

we eh embracing no fact breddah (in fact, i was released from that fact), fact is, for him to come back and lead a carnal nation, he has to be carnal, and so remain carnal, so has to NOT DIE!!!this is what islam says, not the bible you can't take things islam teaches you and apply it to the bible,its the bible that judges the quran


jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity.
yea yeah yea


in ur book u put things which seem so, but u misinterpret what it means,
in your book you put things which seems so but u misinterpret and reject what mine is saying

other wise the trinity would need to include adam (pbuh) and dawood (pbuh)
jesus (pbuh)what does this have to do with Jesus claiming divinity?did any of those other guys claim divinity? stop it with those ridiculous assertions


saying 'i am the truth and the light and the way' is analogous to an ocifer saying 'i iz de law' and macandal dagga saying 'i iz de govament'
if that's your understanding, it speaks a lot


ur bible was not edited properly,
bring yuh proof or shut up

there are still some things there which are true.
guess how you know which is true ? only when it agree with the quran right?????
thats stupidity


the mere fact that the gospel was according to john means that daiz john thing, and according to james, daiz james thing, and judas, daiz judas thing.
who wrote the quran???? what are their names? and please doh give no bs about it being delivered by and angel



he came with a message for the jews, repent cause he comin back.
where did you take this message from???

jibraeel is an angel, in that case, effectively messenger service
it is written that satan can transform himself as an angel of light
that's my accusation of whom Muhammad may have encounter

the bible as it exist today is riddled with interjections from men.
you have no proof of this ,this is just hot air
i can say the same "the quran as it exist today is riddled with interjections from men."
but then the burden is on me to prove it


the only parts we would claim to be truth is those which are inline with our teachings. those which are opposite, are not truth, and those which can be inline but not made reference to, this is the whole Idea behind your argument but you are being backwards
and totally illogical
the old judges the new not the other way around



then they are nice stories which may have been made up.
because the bible is a religious text,
so the quran isn't???


there would be bits and pieces that are what god originally intended in the first instance, so it is still respected, out of respect for those bits and pieces.
can you tell which are the bits and pieces? or do you need it to line up with the quran first
to be authenticated?

the qur'an glorified jesus, and his mother,and made clear what they were.
Jesus never said that the counselor would glorify his mother and
mentioning someone is not glorifying them

the qur'an would stay for as long as it is needed, which would be till the end of jesus's reign, which would be the end.who cares, we aready know this is what was not promised by Jesus seeing that it came 500 years after his disciples died .... [color=#FF0000]failure ?
[/color]
the qur'an does not contradict jesus,
it contradicts the Jesus of the bible and the bible contradicts the Jesus of the quran

ur bible has an erroneous account of him.
ur quran has an erroneous account of him....
lets quit with these silly accusations nah
imagine jesus, bawling up his mother who said jesus bawled up his mother ??
and killing plants for spite
he was demonstrating what will be done with unfruitful plants such as the nation of islam

and whipping people for earning their living.
i wonder how you guys would react to me making a living selling pigs in the mosque?
it is sad to see you make statements like these only to give weight to the quran,
but it is typical of muslims to do so

[sMASH]

u all do not read the bible in the context it was written. the manner of speech people in those time periods do not have the same meaning in today's language. therefore, u misunderstand what they meant to say.

and we cannot say what jesus (pbuh) taught because it was not writen down exactly. u only have third hand accounts, even before the translations. the compilation of the qur'an was a lot more methodical and fool proof in COMPARISON.

the verses as they were revealed were learned, as in, memorized immediately upon revelation. not just memorized, but memorized exactly. many persons memorized them in entirety. and even though there were many persons who knew the exact same thing as the others, it was still not left up to one person to compile. many persons were made to be in agreement before any letter was allowed.


so, to believe in a book which says that the determination of the gender of a baby is with the sperm and that everyone is made in pairs, with knowledge now that the male has 'x' and 'y' chromosomes and when the cells split to form the sperm, half would carry 'x' and the other half would carry 'y', is lot easier than the book which says 40 000 soldiers in one account ant 4000 soldiers in another account, of the same story.

[brainchild]

Mega...retreat and get to know your God, ur spewing explanations and interpretations which even you cannot fully understand, caught up in a never ending cycle of arguments that begin and end the same way. Think long and hard and ask yourself what are you accomplishing? are u searching for answers here? Do you believe your words may save someone here?...cos they won't. These debates are an excercise in futility bcos ur beliefs will not change and neither will those of any other tuner who engage you.

Stop, go outside and look around you...the answers are everywhere. Learn to marvel in the creations of your God and seek to understand the intricacies of them and their inter-connectedness.

Remember the book is merely a guide, you don't keep ur head buried in a map when ur lost, because u won't see where ur goin....u walk and check the map ever so often to make sure ur on the right path.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

fellas hold up this page has become an argument between two religions and this will never end well.

the entire thread was about your personal point of view about God and your rationale as to why - lets keep it that way

[crazybalhead]

Mega...retreat and get to know your God, ur spewing explanations and interpretations which even you cannot fully understand, caught up in a never ending cycle of arguments that begin and end the same way. Think long and hard and ask yourself what are you accomplishing? are u searching for answers here? Do you believe your words may save someone here?...cos they won't. These debates are an excercise in futility bcos ur beliefs will not change and neither will those of any other tuner who engage you.

Stop, go outside and look around you...the answers are everywhere. Learn to marvel in the creations of your God and seek to understand the intricacies of them and their inter-connectedness.

Remember the book is merely a guide, you don't keep ur head buried in a map when ur lost, because u won't see where ur goin....u walk and check the map ever so often to make sure ur on the right path.

[megadoc1]

Mega...retreat and get to know your God, ur spewing explanations and interpretations which even you cannot fully understand, caught up in a never ending cycle of arguments that begin and end the same way. Think long and hard and ask yourself what are you accomplishing? are u searching for answers here? Do you believe your words may save someone here?...cos they won't. These debates are an excercise in futility bcos ur beliefs will not change and neither will those of any other tuner who engage you.

Stop, go outside and look around you...the answers are everywhere. Learn to marvel in the creations of your God and seek to understand the intricacies of them and their inter-connectedness.

Remember the book is merely a guide, you don't keep ur head buried in a map when ur lost, because u won't see where ur goin....u walk and check the map ever so often to make sure ur on the right path.

brainchild I do appreciate what you are trying to say
I am not in total agreement with all that you said..... but I hear yuh pal

[Humes]

Cool video describing the diversity of atheist/agnostic thought. Last few minutes are particularly good.

[Scoobert Bauce]

*walks in sippin a pepsi*
*looks around*

I forgot all about this thread, lol
*drops pepsi can on the ground*
*walks out*

[turbohead]

mega you making some huge accusations which you cant stand up with in court. you have no proof i have been showing you over and over where jesus was a messenger and not God himself. him coming into this world miraculously was a test to separate sheep from wolves. you are bent on trying to prove wat jesus never preached. you go on saying about the author of the Quran, it is undoubtably God Himself that revealed it. He also mentioned in the Quran a test to man to create a book of any similarity to it.

lets break this down once and for all using today's logic as explained to me,

if i create a cd player, i would no every aspect of it and how it functions. i do not have to become a cd player to no how it operates. i just create them and i send with it a manual of its operations and how to fix it. similarly God doesnt have to become human to show us how to live. he created man and set to them guides on how to live and right from wrong. among man were selected few who were special to him ie; the prophets to teach us the guides.

you again complain that the Jesus in the bible and the Quran are to different Jesus'. now where is you proof on that. have you ever read the Quran and understood what it said. i showed on many previous threads of duerotonomy 18-18 which clearly states muhammed(saw) as the prophet to come in the years to come and not Jesus. read the hebrew version his name is there.
i cant imagine that Jesus spoke english so the english version couldnt be accepted as his word. just as if i read an english translation of the Quran i cant accept it as true word of God as it was translated by man and to err is human. the Quran which was revealed in arabic is stil in its original version as recited by the prophet(saw) and the followers. recently a bible was discovered in the middle eastern part of the world and they found that it bore no plausible facts to prove trinity or Jesus claiming divinity.

i asked to you to show me where he said 'i am God worship me" and you choose to criticize every single statement i wrote but your sarcastic comment of "yeah right" is the best you could come up with.

in my views of the bible i would say there are to many versions out there to accept one as truth, in my opinion the rsv would hold out better than the kjv as it dates closer to the time of jesus than the kjv and is backed by many christian scholars of the highest emminance.

mega just sit back and tink a bit of your position and why you follow what you believe, when i asked a christian about trinity they said they learnt it from their parents and was told to just believe it, have faith. how could you hold firm to someting that has no explanation and credibilty.

if i was to convert to christianity i would have to give up all my beliefs and restructure my tinking to accept the doctrines taught by the churches. but if i was christian and followed my beliefs and chose to revert to islam i wouldnt have to give up my beliefs and restructure my tinking because i would have already believed in Gods oneness and the previous prophets and now i would just gradually have to accept muhammed(saw) as the final messenger that was sent with the final scriptures and the truth from Allaah and wouldnt have any problems.

to end i would just like to say this was not a bashing of the christianity religion but rather a educated approach at it. as smash said you need to read in the context of how ppl use to speak in those days.

isaiah ch 45v5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides me there is no god. I arm you, though you do not know me,

isaiah ch 46v9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like me

[megadoc1]

Common Logical Fallacies Made By Muslims

by Robert A. Morey

1. The Fallacy of False Assumptions: In logic as well as in law, "historical precedent" means that the burden of proof rests on those who set forth new theories and not on those whose ideas have already been verified. The old tests the new. The already established authority judges any new claims to authority.

Since Islam came along many centuries after Christianity, Islam has the burden of proof and not Christianity. The Bible tests and judges the Qur'an. When the Bible and The Qur'an contradict each other, the Bible must logically be given first place as the older authority. The Qur'an is in error until it proves itself.

Some Muslims violate the principle of historical precedent by asserting that Islam does not have the burden of proof and that the Qur'an judges the Bible.

2. Arguing in a circle: If you have already assumed in your premise what you are going to state in your conclusion, then you have ended where you began and proven nothing.
Circle

If you end where you began, you got nowhere.

Examples:
#1 Proving Allah by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Allah.
#2 Proving Muhammad by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Muhammad.
#3 Proving Islam by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Islam.


3. False Analogy: Comparing two things as if they are parallel when they are not really the same at all.

Examples:
#1 Many Muslims erroneously assume that Muslims and Christians share the same concepts of God, revelation, inspiration, textual preservation, the Bible, prophethood, biblical history, conversion, etc...

#2 Because a false analogy is drawn between Islam and Christianity, some Muslims think that any argument which refutes the Qur'an will likewise refute the Bible; any argument which refutes Muhammad will also refute Jesus Christ, etc...

#3 For example, many Muslims claim that Muhammad and all prophets were sinless. They even deny that Abraham was an idol worshipper. Thus when a Christian points out all the wicked things that Muhammad did (mass murder, child abuse, lying, etc.), the Muslims will say, "If you are right, then you must also reject your biblical prophets for doing wicked things as well."

What he is really saying is, "If you reject my prophet, then you must reject your prophets as well. If Muhammad was a false prophet, then your prophets are false as well."

The root problem is that the Muslim concept of prophethood is not the same as the Christian concept of prophethood. We teach that prophets sin like anyone else. Thus while Islam is refuted by the sins of Muhammad, Christianity is not jeopardized at all. The Muslim is guilty of setting up a "false analogy."

Whenever a Muslim responds to a Christian attack on the Qur'an, Muhammad, or Allah by flipping the argument around and applying it to the Bible, Jesus or the Trinity as if Islam and Christianity either stand or fall together, he is guilty of the fallacy of false analogy. Islam can be false and Christianity be true at the same time.

4. The Fallacy of Irrelevance: When you introduce issues which have no logical bearing on the subject under discussion, you are using irrelevant arguments.
Examples:
#1 Some Muslims argue, "The Qur'an is the Word of God because the text of the Qur'an has been preserved perfectly." This argument is erroneous for two reasons:

a. Factually, the text of the Qur'an has not been preserved perfectly. The text has additions, deletions, conflicting manuscripts, and variant readings like any other ancient writing.

b. Logically, it is irrelevant whether the text of the Qur'an has been preserved because preservation does not logically imply inspiration. A book can be perfectly copied without implying its inspiration.

#2 When Muslims attack the character and motives of anyone who criticizes Islam, they are using irrelevant arguments. The character of someone is no indication of whether he is telling you the truth. Good people can lie and evil people can tell the truth. Thus whenever a Muslim uses slurs such as "mean," "dishonest," "racist," "liar," "deceptive," etc., he is not only committing a logical fallacy but also revealing that he cannot intellectually defend his beliefs.

#3 When confronted with the pagan origins of the Qur'an, some Muslims defend the Qur'an by answering, "So what! Didn't you Christians get Christmas from the pagans?"

This argument is erroneous for several reasons.

a. It is a false analogy to parallel the pagan origins of the rites commanded in the Qur'an with the present day holidays nowhere commanded in the Bible. What some modern day Christians do on Dec. 25th has no logical bearing on what the Qur'an commands Muslims to do (eg. the Pilgrimage, the Fast, etc.).

b. It is irrelevant that some Christians choose to celebrate the birth of Christ. Since the Bible nowhere commands it, it is a matter of personal freedom. But Muslims are commanded in the Qur'an to believe and practice many things which came from the paganism of that day.

c. The Muslim by using this argument is actually admitting that the Qur'an was not "sent down" but fabricated from pagan sources. This means he has become an unbeliever (Surah 25:4-6).

#4 Some Muslims argue that the Qur'an is the Word of God because it contains some historically or scientifically accurate statements. This argument is irrelevant. Just because a book is correct on some historical or scientific point does not mean it is inspired. You cannot take the attributes of a part and apply it to the whole. A book can be a mixture of true and false statements. Thus it is a logical fallacy to argue that the entire Qur'an is true if it makes one true statement.

When a Muslim argues that history or science "proves" the Qur'an, this actually means that he is acknowledging that history and science can likewise refute the Qur'an. If the Qur'an contains just one historical error or one scientific error, then the Qur'an is not the Word of God. Verification and falsification go hand in hand.

#5 The present meaning of a word is irrelevant to what it meant in ancient times. The word "Allah" is a good example. When confronted by the historical evidence that the word was used by pagan Arabs in pre-Islamic times to refer to a high god who was married to the sun-goddess and had three daughters, some Muslims will quote dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc. to prove (sic) that "Allah means God." They are thus using modern definitions to define what the word meant over a thousand years ago! What "Allah" means now has no bearing on what it meant before Muhammad.

5. The Fallacy of Equivocation: If we assume that everyone has the same definition of such words as God, Jesus, revelation, inspiration, prophet, miracle, etc., we are committing a very simple logical fallacy.

#1 When a Muslim says, "Christians and Muslims worship the same God," he is committing the fallacy of equivocation. While Christians worship the Triune God of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Muslims worship a Unitarian deity. Obviously, they are worshipping different Gods.

#2 When a Muslim says, "We believe in Jesus too," he is committing the fallacy of equivocation. The "Jesus" of the Qur'an is not the Jesus of the Bible. Islam preaches "another Jesus" (II Cor. 11:4). The Jesus of the Bible is God the Son who died on the cross for our sins. But the "Jesus" of the Qur'an is not God the Son and he did not die on the cross for our sins. Thus it is erroneous for Muslims to tell Christians that they believe in Jesus, too.

#3 When a Muslim assumes that Christians have the same concept of revelation as Muslims, he is guilty of the fallacy of equivocation. According to Islam, the Qur'an was written in heaven by Allah and has no earthly sources. When we prove that it comes from earthly sources, this threatens the inspiration of the Qur'an.

On the other hand, the Bible does not claim that it dropped out of heaven one day. It openly quotes from earthly sources. It uses pre-existing sources without any difficulty whatsoever, Thus while the Qur'an is threatened by historical sources, the Bible is actually confirmed by them.

#4 When a Muslims tells you that the word "Allah" has only one meaning: "the one, true, universal God," he is assuming a fallacy. The word "allah" has many different meanings.

a. It can be used as a generic term like the English word "God." Thus it can be applied to any god or goddess regardless if a true or false god is in view. (ex. The "Allahs" of Hinduism.)

b. The Nation of Islam uses it to refer to Wallace Dodd Ford, Elijah Muhammad, and Louis Farrakhan as "Allah" and teaches that all black people are "Allahs."

c. It has been used by some Christians in Arabic speaking countries as a generic name for the Holy Trinity.

d. It was used in pre-Islamic times by pagan Arabs to refer to the moon-god who was the father of al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat.

e. It is used by Muslims to refer to their god.

Islam and Christianity do not worship the same God. The Christian worships the Holy Trinity while the Muslim worships a unitarian deity.

6. The Fallacy of Force: The Qur'an commands Muslims to wage war against non-Muslims and apostates (Surah 5:33; 9:5, 29).

Some Muslims use a false analogy to answer this argument. They respond by saying, "Well, what about the Crusades? You Christians use violence just like Muslims."

It is logically erroneous to set up a parallel between Muslims killing people in obedience to the Qur'an and Christians killing people in disobedience to the Bible. While the Qur'an commands Jihad, the New Testament forbids it.

7. The Fallacy Of Confusing Questions of Fact with Questions of Relevance: Whether something is factually true is totally different from the issue of whether you feel it is relevant. The two issues must be kept separate.

Examples:
#1 When a Christian argues that some of the beliefs and rituals of the Qur'an came from pre-Islamic Arab paganism, the Muslim will deny it at first. But as more and more evidence is given, the Muslim will often do a flip-flop and begin arguing, "So what! Didn't you Christians get Christmas from the pagans?" The Muslim has now committed three fallacies:

a. The "So what!" argument is dealing with the issue of relevance, not fact. You must stop the Muslim at that point and ask him, "Since you are now dealing with the issue of whether the pagan origins of the Qur'an are relevant, does this mean that you are now agreeing to the fact of the pagan origins of Islam?"

b. The Muslim has also committed the fallacy of equivocation, The Bible is not threatened by historical sources. It freely refers to them and even quotes them (Acts 17: 28). But the Qur'an denies that it has any earthly historical sources (Surah 25:4-6).

c. He also committed the fallacy of false analogy. The Bible and the Qur'an are two totally different books. The inspiration of the Bible does not depend upon the fate of the Qur'an because what Muslims claim for the Qur'an is not what Christians claim for the Bible.

8. Phonic Fallacies: The phonetic sound of a word should not be used to twist its meaning. For example,

a. Some Muslims try to prove that the word "Allah" is in the Greek New Testament because of the Greek word alla. But while the word is pronounced "alla," it only means "but" in Greek. It has nothing to do with the Arabic "Allah."

b. Some Muslims have claimed that the word "Allah" is in the Bible because the Biblical word "Allelujah." They then mispronounce the word as "Allah-lujah" But "Allelujah" is not a compound Arabic word with "Allah" being the first part of the word. It is a Hebrew word with the name of God being "JAH" (or Yahweh) and the verb "alle" meaning "praise to." It means "praise to Yahweh." The Arabic word "Allah" is not in the word.

c. The same error is found in the Muslim argument that the word "Baca" (Psa. 94:6) really means "Mecca." The valley of Baca is in northern Israel.

d. Some Muslims have tried to go from "Amen" to "Ahmed" to "Mohammed!" Such nonsense is beyond belief.

9. "Red Herring" Arguments: When a Muslim is asked to defend the Qur'an, if he turns around and attacks the reliability of the Bible, the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the Crusades, etc., he is introducing irrelevant issues that have no logical bearing on the truthfulness of Islam. He is trying to divert attention from Islam to other issues.

Furthermore, he is assuming that if he can refute the Bible, then the Qur'an wins by default. If he can refute the Trinity, then Allah wins by default. But this is logically erroneous. You cannot prove your position by refuting someone else's position. The Bible and the Qur'an could both be wrong. Muslims must prove their own book.

10. Straw Man Arguments: When you put a false argument into the mouth of your opponent and then proceed to knock it down, you have only created a "straw man" argument, Muslims sometimes either misunderstand or deliberately misquote the arguments Christians give them.
Example:
Some Muslims have built a "straw man" argument that claims that we teach, "The Qur'an teaches that Allah is the Moon-god and that Muslims knowingly believe in and worship the Moon-god and his daughters." They then knock down this "straw man" argument and claim victory. Of course, we never said such nonsense. What we have said is that while the Qur'an claims that Allah is God and Muslims think they are worshipping the one true God, in reality they are worshipping a false god preached by a false prophet according to a false book.

Conclusion

The average Muslim has been deceived by Muslim apologists who use such logical fallacies without regard to reason, fact or honesty. But there are many Muslims who want to be rational in their religion and thus have an open mind to rational discourse. Once they see that their arguments are based on logical fallacies, they will be open to the wonderful news that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for our sins on the cross.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

mega just sit back and tink a bit of your position and why you follow what you believe, when i asked a christian about trinity they said they learnt it from their parents and was told to just believe it, have faith. how could you hold firm to someting that has no explanation and credibilty.

but you also believe in Adam and Eve! how much proof and credibility outside of the holy books does that story have?

this seems like a case of pot calling kettle black IMO

[megadoc1]

some common Islamic charges

WE BELIEVE IN THE ONE TRUE GOD OF ABRAHAM

Response: This claim is a false analogy that proves to be untruthful after care study of the God of the Bible compared to the God of the Quran. False Analogy:- Definition:

In an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to
be similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so
also B must have property P. An analogy fails when the two
objects, A and B, are different in a way which affects whether
they both have property P.

Examples:

(i) Employees are like nails. Just as nails must be hit in the
head in order to make them work, so must employees.
(ii) Government is like business, so just as business must be
sensitive primarily to the bottom line, so also must
government. (But the objectives of government and business
are completely different, so probably they will have to meet
different criteria.)

Religious analogy: Since Allah has similar characteristics to YHWH, Allah must be one and the same.

Abraham never called God's personal name "Allah" nor does the Hebrew Bible!
Exodus 3:15-YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God (El) Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial name to all generation

Thus says Yahweh who made the earth, Yahweh who formed it to establish it, “Yahweh is His name. Jer. 33:2

All the nations may walk in the name of their gods (elohiym); we will walk in the name of YHWH our God (Elohiynu) fore ever and ever. Micah 4:5.

I am YHWH, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images. Isaiah 42:8

The name of God forever in the Bible is the tetragramaton YHWH or YHVH. It can be pronounced as YAHWEH or YEHOVAH. If Muslims claim that Allah is god's personal name, they must prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that all the prophets, in the Bible, spoke in the name of Allah, as well as prove in Jewish and Hebrew writings that Allah is and was a common personal name for God. Since no evidence of this exist whatsoever in the Hebrew Bible or in any Jewish writing or Hebraic Jewish culture, Muslims only credible argument is one that stems not only from the above fallacy but also the fallacy of Slothful Induction-The proper conclusion of an inductive argument is denied despite the evidence to the contrary.

To promote the idea that Allah is the same as saying God or god doesn't answer the question as to what is God's name? Hence the Arabic Bible mistranslates Allah to equal (Elohim) which is the common word for God in Hebrew, however even this bible doesn't say that God's name is Allah. It uses Al'Rabb as a synonym for YHWH. Be careful of Muslims who will try to twist Allah (used as a common noun in the Arabic Bible, while a proper name in the Quran) to be a proper noun even though it is used as a common noun in the Arabic Bible

WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS WAS NEVER CRUCIFIED ACCORDING TO ISLAM.

RESPONSE: This is another fallacy of Slothful Induction

Definition:

The proper conclusion of an inductive argument is denied
despite the evidence to the contrary.

Examples:

(i) Hugo has had twelve accidents n the last six months, yet
he insists that it is just a coincidence and not his fault.
(Inductively, the evidence is overwhelming that it is his fault.
This example borrowed from Barker, p. 189)
(ii) Poll after poll shows that the N.D.P will win fewer than
ten seats in Parliament. Yet the party leader insists that the
party is doing much better than the polls suggest. (The N.D.P.
in fact got nine seats.)

Islam began with the alleged prophetic call of Muhammad in the 6th century. Jesus lived in 1st century Palestine, we have bibles dating back to that time. Muhammad neither met nor saw Jesus or did he ever go to Jerusalem. Therefore Muhammad is not a witness and any appeal to what the Quran claims is nothing more than an appeal to Dubious Authority, since neither the Quran nor Muhammad existed at this time and didn't offer any explanation as to how "it was made to appear" to the disciples.

CHALLENGE TO MUSLIMS PROMOTING THIS CLAIM: In order for Muslims to disprove Jesus crucifixion, they must show ample evidence from the time of Jesus and historical records to prove their case. If all they have is the Quranic description without any major detail, they've present nothing more than a circular argument. So in other words, if you can't find a 1st century document that is credible historically which says that Jesus was never crucified, then the typical Muslim argument is based on nothing but blind faith. This is hardly proof.

GOD DOESN'T HAVE A SON BECAUSE HE HAS NO CONSORT.

RESPONSE: This is a strawman argument. The definition of this argument is someone that attacks an argument which is different from, and usually weaker than, the opposition's best argument.

The Bible doesn't mention that God has a consort either. Therefore Muslims who use this argument to try and convert people have invented a situation based on false assumptions and then proceeded to disprove this argument that was never mentioned. The question of God having a son is answered and shown in both the Old and New Testament:
For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, WHO HAS ESTABLISHED IT, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other. Isaiah 45:18

"Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? WHO HAS ESTABLISHED ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH? What is his name, AND THE NAME OF HIS SON? Tell me if you know!" Proverbs 30:4

From Isaiah we see that God established the earth and from Proverbs we see that God has a son. Notice he didn't say SONS which can't be used as a defense by Muslims to claim that Jesus was one of the many sons. Jesus himself further authenticates this:
For God so loved the world that He gave HIS ONLY begotten Son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send HIS SON into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

We see that Jesus says to believe on him and you will have everlasting life.

“But Jesus answered them, My father has been working until now, and I have been working. Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill him because he not only broke the Sabbath but also said that God was HIS FATHER, making himself EQUAL WITH GOD.” John 5:17-18

Literally, “His own Father”-Greek- patera idion. It is clear that the Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be God.’” (NKJV, footnote, pg 843, Scoffield, 1989).

Since Jesus by his own admission, is claming that God is his OWN (note: not metaphorically, the words pateria idion differentiates from metaphorically) Father then based on Judaism at this time, he is claiming to be equal with God. For more information and detail analysis on Jesus claim to deity Please see this Link

CHALLENGE TO MUSLIMS PROMOTING THIS ARGUMENT:In order for Muslims to prove "THE SON OF GOD" fact wrong, they must first show explictedly in the Bible where this criteria takes place. Any Quranic or foreign injunction of this argument misses the point and falls under the logical fallacy of "Begging the Question" Definition:

The truth of the conclusion is assumed by the premises.
Often, the conclusion is simply restated in the premises in a
slightly different form. In more difficult cases, the premise is
a consequence of the conclusion.

Examples:

(i) Since I'm not lying, it follows that I'm telling the truth.

We will use this same example of argument against the Quran.
God doesn't have a son, since the Quran says that he needs of Consort.
What the Quran says must be true, since to have a son needs a consort and
Allah never lies (Here, we must agree that Allah says you
need a consort to have a son to believe that to have a son needs a cosort.

This is a silly assumption which makes no sense due to the fact that Muslims have invented the "consort" argument.

THE BIBLE HAS BEEN CORRUPTED OVER TIME BY CHRISTIANS.

RESPONSE: This is another fallacy of Slothful Induction. The Quran never mentioned any sort of scripture which says:
The People of the Book changed the original message of Allah with their pens.

The Torah and Injil were originally inspired by Allah but they have become corrupted.

Only some of the Gospel hasn't been tampered.

CHALLENGE TO MUSLIMS PROMOTING THIS ARGUMENT: Tell them to show you something exactly of this nature in the Quran and then prove it historically by showing how one one bible with the same passage says the exact opposite of another bible with the same passage. Meaning example:
John 3:16. For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Usual Bible

John 3:16. For God so love the world THAT HE GAVE JESUS ONLY AS A PROPHET so that whosoever believe IN GOD AND NOT HIM shall not perish but will have everlasting life. Another different Bible

Since they can't produce this proof, Muslims can only rely on the difference in English translations as the source of their proof. Please tell them nicely that the bible wasn't written in English and that word differentiation patterns in the Greek N.T. especially has no effect on the meaning of the language. That only occurs, well, in English. Muslims will tend to believe anything their Sheik, etc. will tell them blindly.

8. WE BELIEVE IN THE QURAN

RESPONSE: Any one who has talked and debated with Muslims obviously knows that this is a false argument. Muslims love to use this argument in trying to convert people to Islam. They proceed to attack the bible with the strange perception that this would somehow prove the Quran. Hence their strategy is:

PROVE THE BIBLE WRONG SO THE QURAN CAN BE CORRECT

Obviously this is a major fallacy and is called a "strawman argument" in which they weaken the argument at hand in order to prove their poing instead of answering the point directly. Muslims are also very good at utilizing the fallacy of exclusion to lie to their Christian audience. By hiding certain information they feel that this can some how prove to their potential convert that Islam is true. Lets show you just how they ignore certain important parts in the Quran:

1. First and Foremost, they claim that the Bible is corrupted. Not only is this ludicrous and incredulous, it totally ignores what the Quran says about the Bible. Here is what the Quran actually says:

"If you (Muhammad) are in doubt regarding that which We have revealed to thee, ASK those who READ the book from before you..." S. 10:94

If the Bible is corrupted or lost, this proves that Allah is telling Muhammad to verify his own message, the Quran, on a corrupted source!! Therefore by disproving the Bible you would also disprove the Quran!! Since According to modern Islam, the bible is corrupted, this would lead them to fall into the fallacy of "SUBVERTED-SUPPORT". Here the phenomenon being explained, in this case the verification test of the Quran, doesn't exist!!! Hence, we must reject the Quran as being unprovable and illogical and false since even the Quran says to judge base on previous scriptures!!

Look at this passage:

"And I will write down (my mercy) for those who are righteous and give alms and who believe in our signs; who follow the apostle, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in the Torah and the Gospel that IS WITH THEM."

Here the Quran even claims that Muhammad is found in previous scriptures!! This verse mentions nothing about a Gospel or Torah "that was with them" as opposed to "IS with them". So if the Bible was lost or corrupted then we must conclude that Allah is a liar since we wouldn't be able to find Muhammad in it. If it is corrupted then it shows that Muhammad is a corrupted prophet being prophesied by a corrupted book!! Read this passage:

"And let the People of the Gospel JUDGE by what God has revealed in it. If any fail to judge by what God has revealed, they are licentious." S. 5:50

"If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, we should have blotted out their sins and admitted them to gardens of bliss." "If only they had performed the Torah and the Gospel and all that was revealed to them from their Lord, they would have eaten from above and from under their feet. Among them is a People (umma) on the right course, but evil is that which many of them do..." "Say, O People of the Book! You are not (founded) on anything until you PERFORM the Torah and the Gospel, and what was revealed to you from your Lord." S. 5:68-71

Hence to accept Bible corruption, one would be force to conclude that Allah's revelations can be change by mere human beings!! What type of God is this?!!! The Quran clearly tells Christians to judge based upon what Allah revealed in it, not the Quran!! Also it says that the people of the book (Bible, Bible means book) have to perform the Torah and Gospel!! Not the Quran!!! So if the Bible is corrupted this would contradict these passages:
The words of thy Lord are perfect in truth and in justice; NONE CAN CHANGE HIS WORDS: For He is the one who heareth and knoweth all. S. 6:115

THERE IS NONE THAT CAN ALTER THE WORDS OF ALLAH. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers. S. 6:34

THERE IS NO CHANGING THE WORDS OF GOD; that is the supreme triumph. S. 10:65

And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. THERE IS NONE WHO CAN CHANGE HIS WORDS, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him. S.18:27

Therefore Muslims who believe this unQuranic theory would contradict their own book and disaffirm their belief in the Quran!! This is just fine with us since it proves that they can't even support such false polemics from their own book!! So which one is it? if the Bible is corrupted or lost then this means that the Quran is incorrect!! Look at these verses:

"God has bought from the believers their selves and their wealth, and for them is the garden (of Paradise) if they fight in the ways of God: and whether they kill or are killed, the promise of God IS true in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an, and who is more faithful to his promise than God?" S. 9:111

"To you (Muhammad) We revealed the book in truth, attesting to (the truth of) that which IS between his (its) hands from the scripture (the Torah and Gospel), and guarding it (wa muhaiminan `alaihi)..." S. 5:51

According to the Quran, the promise of God is true in both the Torah and Gospel. Also Allah said that he revealed "THE BOOK" that is attesting to pevious truth in the Torah and Gospel. Hence who should we agree with? Muslims who claim that both are corrupted partially or fully? or the Quran? Muslims themselves can be some of the biggest hypocrites in promoting their religion since it requires believing this here and believing that over there!! These last 2 passages should drive this home:

"They (the Meccans) say, `Why does he not bring us a sign from his Lord?' What! Has not a clear sign come to them in what IS in the former pages (al-suhuf al-aulla )?" S. 20:133

And,

"And before thee (Muhammad), We sent no one, except men, to whom We granted revelation. ASK (plural) the people of the Scripture message, if you don't know." S. 21:7

According to the Quran clear proof of God himself is in the former scriptures of the Torah and Gospel and he even commanded Muhammad to ask the people of the scripture if he didn't know!! So much for Muslim bible corruption hoax. Need we say more? No.

CHALLENGE TO MUSLIMS PROMOTING THIS ARGUMENT: Show us where it is okay to believe some of the Quran and disbelieve other parts to arrive at this theory. Since the Muslim can't do this we obviously see that this is some invention of modern day Muslims to counter God's word in the Bible.

THE UNCORRUPTED BIBLE VERSES ARE THOSE WHICH AGREE WITH THE QURAN

RESPONSE: Muslims who use this argument are intentionally twisting what their Quran says. This is the fallacy of False Dilemma in which the Muslim has intentionally limited the number of options to being either correct which agrees with the Quran or incorrect which disagrees with the Quran. An example of this is:
All uncorrupted verses in the Bible are those that agree with the Quran OR they are corrupted since they disagree with what the Quran says.

This fallacy is easily refuted since Muslims must believe what the Quran says or be discounted as either heretics, unbelievers or just plain liars according to their own Quran. If you look at these passages you will see that it tells Muhammad to enquire from the People of the Book (Jews, Christians) to verify the Quran itself, not the other way around. Read:

"The (Qur'an) is indeed a message for you (Muhammad) and your people, (all of) you shall be brought to account, and ASK those of our apostles whom we sent before thee, `Did We appoint any deities other than the Most Merciful whom they should worship?'" S. 43:44-45

"If you (Muhammad) are in doubt regarding that which We have revealed to thee, ASK those who READ the book from before you..." S. 10:94

"And We have not sent before you (Muhammad) other than men to whom we granted revelation. And (all of you) ASK the people of the (Scripture) Message if you don't know." S. 16:43-44

"To Moses We gave nine clear signs. ASK (O Muhammad) the Children of Israel..." S. 17:101

Therefore to try and turn the Quran around and force it to say something that it never was intended to say proves that Muslims can't even trust their own god in their attempts to disprove Christianity. This also disagrees with Muhammad even further:
Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: "I believe in WHATEVER BOOK Allah has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. Allah will bring us together, and to Him is (our) final goal. S. 42:15

Here Muhammad clearly says that he believes whatever God sends down, whether the Torah, Gospel, Quran or any other book that has God's words in it. Hence, this can refer to the Epistles, or even the Hindu Vedas, since Islam claims that Allah sent messengers to all nations!! Also further study into Islamic history shows that the Bible isn't corrupted:
Mujahid. Ash-Sha'bi, Al-Hassan, Qatadah and Ar-Rabi' bin Anas said that,

<who distort the Book with their tongues.>

means, "They alter (Allah's Words)."

Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn 'Abbas said that the Ayah means they alter and add although none among Allah's creation CAN REMOVE THE WORDS OF ALLAH FROM HIS BOOKS, THEY ALTER AND DISTORT THEIR APPARENT MEANINGS. Wahb bin Munabbih said, "The Tawrah and Injil REMAIN AS ALLAH REVEALED THEM, AND NO LETTER IN THEM WAS REMOVED. However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves. Then,

<they say: "This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah;>

As for Allah's books, THEY ARE STILL PRESERVED AND CANNOT BE CHANGED." Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this statement. However, if Wahb meant the books that are currently in the hands of the People of the Book, then we should state that there is no doubt that they altered, distorted, added to and deleted from them. For instance, the Arabic versions of these books contain tremendous error, many additions and deletions and enormous misinterpretation. Those who rendered these translations have incorrect comprehension in most, rather, all of these translations. If Wahb meant the Books of Allah that He has with Him, then indeed, these Books are preserved and were never changed. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Abridged Volume 2, p. 196, 2000 -vs. 3:78)

The corruption which Muslims clearly refer to deal with only the Arabic translations of the Torah and Gospel!! Hence the original Hebrew and Greek message of the Torah and Gospel respectively isn't corrupt and still intact!! However Muslims ignore their own history to try and promote a theory that doesn't exist!!! So if Islamic history, Quranic verses and Muhammad said that the Bible isn't corrupted, why are Muslims promoting this theory? Muhammad has the answer:
Abu Huraira reported God's Messenger as saying:

"In the last days there will be LYING DAJJALS who will bring you traditions of which neither you nor your fathers have heard, so beware of them. (Mishkat ul-Masabih, Bk. 1, Ch. VI, p. 42 [tr. James Robson, Ashraf, Lahore, 1963])

According to Muhammad himself, people who introduce theories that wasn't known by him or his companions nor his forefathers are considered lying dajjals or lying antichrists!! Let that be a note for all modern day Muslim apologists who prescribe to Bible corruption. Ibn Khazeem was the first to claim Bible corruption so are Muslims following him as a propohet of Islam? This would be in strict violation of orthodox Islam!! Need we say more? No.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ hang on, you are quoting the bible to prove the qu'ran wrong?
well that's really pointless since turbohead can quote the qu'ran and say the bible is wrong and neither of you can prove what you are saying is really the truth