The Religion Discussion

[bluefete]

You people are doing a great job. There is so much for me to catch up on.

However, maybe I should put this in the weather thread but it relates to God so here goes.

All who wanted rain and were cussing our officials yesterday and Friday, well rain is pouring now. Are you happy?

We must not tempt God.

We should give God thanks for sparing our lives (AGAIN!!!).

All you doubters should be thankful that so many people in T&T believe in God and beg for His mercies.

Pray hard for Jamaica that they will be spared the brunt of this Hurricane (which should be a 3 or 4 by the time it reaches them later this week).

PRAY AS WELL FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE OTHER ISLANDS IN THE WAY.

[dark_lord_tnt]

Biblical scholars (my meaning), including Catholics, have explained that there are four narrations (your term would be "authors") that were used to compile Genesis.

While your study of those often ignored texts is quite refreshing, I will just voice my opinion at this point. You seem to give such texts the same weight as fundamentalists do the biblical texts. I am personally not concerned whether which one really should be considered scripture, or which one was not chosen because who didn't care for what... my point is, we have a far better idea now about what we should be concerning ourselves with - with regards to where we want to go... and literal belief in any ancient scripture of unknown source, be it genesis or jasher, is fraught with problems.

Cheers

Thanks .. bu actually i dont believe in any of the two text, I personally think its mans way of answering questions to which there was no answer. Maybe some are stories maybe some are accurate I dont know. But what i do know is that it was held holy and and deeply among early Christians. I dont mean to chastise or prove one is more acurate than the other, the purpose was simply to show how and why things could have been edited.

Forget all scriptures and look at the basic principles of all religions. You find all have these

1.) There is a God
2.) Live life to be more than human (love your neighbor as your self)
3.) Act in your life as you are supposed to. (Do unto others as you'll have them do unto you)

I guess we all have our own beliefs in god, but we must understand there is a difference between doing what your heart says is right ,, and what man says is right. To understand whats the words of man , and whats the words of god.

Now that we have taken care of creation with the bible (jews and christian) I guess I'll move on to creation by Islam and then creation by Hinduism. Actually I'll skip Islamic accounts of creation and go directly to the founding of Islam. I guess there will be a lot of Muslims who will want my head after that topic starts. (the truth hurts).. Oh and Scientology as well,, "maybe tom cruise will want the dark lord xenu to smite me with one of his death rays ???

[d spike]

You people are doing a great job.
There is so much for me to catch up on.

Yes, like finally explaining who told you that a bull's belongings weren't kosher...
Let me guess... you made it up on the spur of the moment:
1. because it "sounded intelligent"
2. you kinda hoped I wouldn't know about what is or isn't kosher
3. you thought you would sound stupid, or less than your ego was willing to cope with, if you just said you made up the earlier nonsense about rope being made from such matter...
(and "no", I'm not going to drop it, and "yes", I would like an answer - you and your ilk take advantage of other people's self-awareness/insecurity of their lack of knowledge, by speaking authoritatively/dogmatically on things you don't know yourself... prove me wrong)

However, maybe I should put this in the weather thread but it relates to God so here goes.

All who wanted rain and were cussing our officials yesterday and Friday, well rain is pouring now. Are you happy?

We must not tempt God.

Who is tempting God? Why do you insist on blowing up natural occurrences to appear as deliberate "divine weapons"?

We should give God thanks for sparing our lives (AGAIN!!!).

All you doubters should be thankful that so many people in T&T believe in God and beg for His mercies.

What are you implying (AGAIN!!!)?
That folks in Barbados are worse sinners than those here in TnT?
And the dead in the Philippines and Indonesia... sinners all that needed punishment, eh?

[sMASH]

[mamoo_pagal]

You people are doing a great job. There is so much for me to catch up on.

However, maybe I should put this in the weather thread but it relates to God so here goes.

All who wanted rain and were cussing our officials yesterday and Friday, well rain is pouring now. Are you happy?

We must not tempt God.

We should give God thanks for sparing our lives (AGAIN!!!).

All you doubters should be thankful that so many people in T&T believe in God and beg for His mercies.

Pray hard for Jamaica that they will be spared the brunt of this Hurricane (which should be a 3 or 4 by the time it reaches them later this week).

PRAY AS WELL FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE OTHER ISLANDS IN THE WAY.

While your intentions are noble and must be commended and here is a clear example of the myopic views that exist on reliegion/god:

(1) We must not tempt god?
Is god some bad mind diety who sits and is easily enranged and smites those who dare to speak in a certain manner? Isn't god suppose to be love, self-less and unbiased love?
How can god be tempted? Isn't he master of all including himself not goverened by "emotions"?
Did he cause a piece of the weather system to swing back just because some ppl behaved in a certain way? BTW alot of places in trinidad did not get rain I wonder if the places that did get rain contained a concentrated amount of "cussers"

(2) "All you doubters"
when you reffer to god I hope you are not referring to the Christian community only.
As our musilm brothers and sisters have recently completed their fast and worship, our hindu brothers and sisters are preparing for Divali and our christian brothers and sisters are already in the Christmas spirit. I wonder if this may affect the blessings we recieve? With all these spiritual people who exist in the lovely island.
Or is it because of the heathen muslims and hindus it we almost got stormed out

Clearly there is an omnipresence of god within the entire community of trinidad. BTW Tobago got hit pretty hard..........damn those sinners

(3) Beg for god's mercies?
Dosen't god beg for our love? and those who can open thier eyes and allow him in are blessed in many ways. Isn't god all loving and caring and we don't need to beg for anything just ask with purity of heart? If we don't "beg" would we be punished. So who beg's best gets most?
So the good, friendly, loving folks in Barbados I guess they didn't beg enough. Damnn those peaceful, warm caribbean people.
BTW after all this religous seasons alot of Trini's preparing for Carnival and the celebrations wonder if we may get punished after all the fasting and worship to now indulge in such behaviour.

BTW I do respect your concern and I join you in it......

[Chimera]

on ye knees non-believers, or I shall smite thee.

[dark_lord_tnt]

on ye knees non-believers, or I shall smite thee.

If its one thing I did learn in life is that man has changed everything for their own needs. Everyone is captured by greed, envy and jealousy. Even when knowingly doing something unjust to another they look for justification and in all places including religion. Its not that they look for justification from God but from their own self. Thinking that its ok with god somehow makes it better..

[mamoo_pagal]

on ye knees non-believers, or I shall smite thee.

If its one thing I did learn in life is that man has changed everything for their own needs. Everyone is captured by greed, envy and jealousy. Even when knowingly doing something unjust to another they look for justification and in all places including religion. Its not that they look for justification from God but from their own self. Thinking that its ok with god somehow makes it better..

Well said sir...........people don't realize or probably they do. Ignorance is apparently accepted once it is towards what they believe. I wonder if these people know that religion is supposed to preach against one thing which is ignorance?

The saddest part of it all I have some conversations with 15 yr olds(teenagers) especially of the Christian faith and the same level of intolerance I get from them towards other religions is the same I have observed here from more mature folks. They see this ignorance as faith and use every passage from the bible possible to justify what they selfeshily want to believe. Is all about "mine is better because of........"

[dark_lord_tnt]

Seeing as Divali is near thought i'd spread some information on Hinduism.. Firstly I have heard that a lot of people (including Hindu's themselves think that Hinduism has multiple gods this is a wrong misconception) In order to explain this I'll start with the Views Of Creation as stated in the Upanishads and Vedas. A word for word account will take to long, so I'll give a summary with a brief explanation.

In the beginning there was Brahaman and the was nothing before Brahaman for Brahaman was the Beginning. (the term Brahaman is used to describe the one supreme God without form , it basically describes Brahaman as a mass of intelligent Cosmic Energy). Brahaman then exploded seperating across the universe separating into 3 fundamental aspects, and this was done with the sound Om and Om was the first sound and in it has the vibrations of all the universe. (This part kinda reminds me of Stephen Hawkings Theory of Everything, the big bang say boooooom long enough and it sounds like om)

The 3 Aspects Of Brahaman are the Creator or creative aspect (Brahman,) The Sustenance energy or sustain-er (Vishnu) and the destructive energy or destroyer (Shiva) and they are governed by the Laws of Brahaman. And the earth and planets and suns of the universe was created, and life was created by Bramha, and planets and life was sustained by Vishnu and when their time has or will pass they will be removed by Shiva. (the easiest way to think of this is think of Brahman as a seed, that seed has the ability for creation, you plant the seed and it grows , that's the act of Vishnu and as the seed grows and lives that's the act of Vishnu, and when the tree dies, Shiva comes into play with rotten and decomposition or the destructive aspect returning everything to what it once was.)

Now the consort of Vishnu is Lakshmi or the goddess of Light. Light is necessary for sustenance of all living things. The light or female energy is given a feminine form or a more passive form so its called Lakshmi. Another example is Kali or Durga the consort of Shiva or the feminine passive side.
Think Of Shiva as a masculine aggressive form such as a supernova or pulsar wiping out everything in its part with great violence , now think of Kali as the mild passive soft dorm like diseases, like a plague or virus ..

The basic objective of Hinduism is to realize that everything around us is material and perishable, We are more than this we are souls or part of the great Brahaman in-cased in these physical perishable bodies that will soon be useless, when this happens and the body can no longer sustain the soul we leave it and this process is called death. The body must then be disposed of to return the elements to the earth, the soul in its mean time will then inhabit another suitable body to accomplish its task. the Main objective is to realize that material things are just what they are and to get away from them, upon this realization one will attain moksha and be liberated from the cycle of birth and rebirth.

The soul of everything will one day return to God and even if the world ends the Hindu aspects says that there are multiple worlds so when this one can no longer sustain life we move to another world (yeah i was shocked to see they believe in aliens as well).

That's why the Hindus do not have a concept of the Devil ,, they have demons in their mythology Like Ravana but these are simply begins as well. When you die your sold must be scanted. meaning that you have to pay for your own sins, and Hell is a self created theme, for example if you were to rape someone the only way to justify this is that you were raped your self, In your own self created hell you will be punished accordingly until the soul is released and reborn in yet another attempt to Moksha.

And whats cool about it is that hindus believe that no matter what name you refer to God you still refer to the same one God, And you don't need to pray everyday for salvation its how you live your life. Live it as a being greater than a human and you will attain such. So no matter if your christian or Muslim the hindu beliefs apply to everyone you dont have to be a hindu or have any concept of it. One your not guided by jealousy, envy greed, hatred, or keep hurting others and you realize that there is more to you than this physical form your all set.. God Didnt just create God constantly creates and God creates through us, Like Cars and vans etc.

If you have any questions feel free to ask,, But don't think that's all I have several negative things to say as well but this involves mans use of Hinduism, not the root beliefs. So have a Happy and Blessed Divali Everyone..

[Kasey]

^^Thanks, Happy Divali to you too.

Anyone who truely knows his/her scriptures and doesnt follow blindly will know that there are flaws, that man has introduced in it. And I mean ALL religions.

[QG]

Just dropping in to say waddup!

[wagonrunner]

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

You people are doing a great job. There is so much for me to catch up on.

However, maybe I should put this in the weather thread but it relates to God so here goes.

All who wanted rain and were cussing our officials yesterday and Friday, well rain is pouring now. Are you happy?

We must not tempt God.

We should give God thanks for sparing our lives (AGAIN!!!).

All you doubters should be thankful that so many people in T&T believe in God and beg for His mercies.

Pray hard for Jamaica that they will be spared the brunt of this Hurricane (which should be a 3 or 4 by the time it reaches them later this week).

PRAY AS WELL FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE OTHER ISLANDS IN THE WAY.

I guess all the prayers for Haiti went unanswered?
85% of Haitians are Christian.

"In Haiti, a nation still grappling with the effects of a killer earthquake and a deadly cholera outbreak this year, Tomas destroyed houses and turned some streets into rivers. The storm also dumped more than 10 inches of rain in the Dominican Republic.

In Leogane, west of Haiti's capital of Port-au-Prince, water several feet deep rushed through the town's streets."

[Kasey]

^^dem ppl prayin the wrong way.

[QG]

Kasey maybe right! But still doesn't Justify the fact as to why it happened...no one knows why!

Just because you pray does not make u all that safe! Christianity teaches us to Pray and BELIEVE in all Thine Heart...only will our prayers be answered and given on to us, what we desire!

We must pray EVERYDAY for protection and guidance! (General statement).
I have NO answer as to why that flood happened to Haiti...I am not God!
But everything happen for some purpose or reason that sometimes we HUMANS cannot comprehend.

[QG]

This is to Smash. (SMASH ONLY)

Smash, you said on the previous page that no man can comprehend God's Image according to Islam. And that you all don't see God as a "Him", but answer me this...In the Quran I have seen sometimes where it mentioned "For He is Merciful". If it does not reflect to Allah/God, then who or what is that statement reflecting to?

In Christianity, we know that Angels in Heaven has no Gender Sex (Male/Female), but we know that God is Male through Jesus and well through Moses, since Moses heard a thunderous Masculine voice from the burning tree, and Jesus calling God his Father!

[d spike]

Kasey maybe right!

Good grief. The man was being sarcastic. Is there a wrong way to pray? And here I am, thinking that the major complaint of all the worthy old baggages is that people don't pray enough...

This is to Smash. (SMASH ONLY)

Then PM him.

In Christianity, we know that Angels in Heaven has no Gender Sex (Male/Female), but we know that God is Male through Jesus and well through Moses, since Moses heard a thunderous Masculine voice from the burning tree, and Jesus calling God his Father!

HOLD IT ONE MOMENT!
Allow me to adjust my PPE...


But seriously,QG... perhaps you should re-read what you just wrote... mainstream Christianity does not share this peculiar thinking.
Yes, Jesus was born male (That was a 50/50 thing there, wasn't it) and major religions refer to their supreme deity as having masculine characteristics... but that doesn't mean he IS male.
Male and Female are characteristics of higher order created physical beings - not spiritual beings. Sexual identity has to do with reproduction and genetics.

Remarkably enough, when humans were hunter-gatherers, and the society was matriarchal, God was depicted as female. (Makes sense, as how reproduction worked was a mystery, sex was just another activity, men were strong and good for hunting/protecting... but women were different... babies (new life!) just popped out of them every so often... and if ever blood leaked out of something, it was going to die, yet women did this thing regularly (normel normel )
So women/femininity was seen as something special/paranormal... godly. Men were expendable... go catch food, get stepped on.
When Agriculture was developed, life changed drastically. Man stopped wandering, for he had to wait on a harvest, tend/protect the crop... so he had to build houses... villages... put down infrastructure... build a wall around homes and crops to stop pilfering from marauding groups... organize teams of watchers (militia) to stand guard...
Walled cities developed, and as people were now forced to live in constant close proximity to each other, laws were agreed on to maintain the status quo.
Men now became important to the stability of the tribe. Specialization, trading and "wealth" came into existence... and remarkably enough, so too did organized religion. Male deities appeared, pushing the older female ones aside, to lesser roles... and slowly into non-existence.
As man formed a clearer concept about deity, all that was considered great or important was ascribed to that concept... including maleness.

We humans need a concept to focus on, and the masculine imagery of God helps in this regard... (To refer to God as the Holy "It" somehow makes the concept less majestic ) That doesn't mean that God is male.
...And if Jesus came as a female, who would have listened to him in the first place? Or even followed him? God may be omnipotent, but he isn't stupid... and the ideas needed to be delivered.
If you check any accepted Christian theologian, you will see that maleness is ASCRIBED to God... that's something we decided, not him. And that was accepted long before Jesus' time. He came as part of his people's culture - as we all do - and developed it into something greater.
Look at it from another angle: how many of the world's religions were started by a woman? Buddha, Jesus, Zoraster, Lao-tse, Confucius... all guys. For all you know, probably hundreds of women through time have tried to teach a new way of thinking... and each was probably told to go home and cook for their man... or get one... Nobody listens to women
To base your concept on Moses' bush... well, a voice was needed to communicate with Moses, and a stuttering, lisping, effeminate one would not have helped convince the old hardback Hebrew... "N-n-n-now Motheth, y-y-y-ou mutht g-g-g-go b-b-b-b-back to Ethgypth..."
Are you suggesting that the Supreme spirit has vocal cords? That were strengthened by testosterone? Produced by his divine... um... whatevers? Please... apply a little thought and some research if you are not too sure about what you want to say, before shooting from the hip a la Bluefete and his non-kosher bull-pistle/rope...

By the way... we don't KNOW, we BELIEVE. (If, of course, you have peeped under an angel's robe, please be sure to let us know.)

[sMASH]

the explanation i found out about that, can't remember it exactly, but same thing i was thinking about. its a grammatical default. and the reason for that being the grammatical default are more or less stated above,

i is not a scholar, but some things catch my interest and i find out what the more learned people think about it, and see if what they thinking making sense. so, as i stated before, don't use me alone as the demonstration of islam.

[dark_lord_tnt]

@ Smash AND Qg and all else interested

In Islam , Judaism and Christianity God has been given a masculine personality because of the simple fact that the 3 above religions Hold to their finest belief that woman are subservient to man, MAN being the greater life form and women in every way inferior. Therefor it would be against their belief to portray God as a famine form or even without gender cause then it will not reflect the male superiority. Now some christian sects have accepted women as equals and even allow them to preach etc. However this cannot be considered PURE CHRISTIANITY for the simple fact that the root has been changed. Its more like a refined revised King James Edition.

Actually I think there are very few religious and occult beliefs of modern time that gives women equality, The Major one being Hinduism. Hinduism view women as the equal of man and have even incorporated this in the mainstream religion. In some cases however where women are opressed its not the fault of the religion but that of the cultural nature of the "MAN" which actually goes against what the religion teaches.

But just to mention Jasher the last ruler of isreal before the "EVENT" of Moses was a female and in all subsequent rulers were female. Hindusm teaches that the woman is the suttle concept and the keeper of life and happiness. While man id the provider and protector, Sort of Like Ying and Yang. Two opposites, equals yet necessary for harmony.

and for the muslims, Allah "means he who is and will always be" (GOD) so its wrong and against your religion to say Allah is without form, Seeing as it was born through Christianity The concept of God Remains the SAME..

By the way,, the word translated and father (used by jesus) actually mean The father of all or Creator.. This is justified in Mark when jesus says 'We are all the Children Of God" and in Luke "when he says My father is your father" and in John with the Our father prayer "Our Father who a'tr in heaven"

[Kasey]

I dont know alot about what the other religions say, but I know that the Hindu Religion does put the feminine aspect of god on par the the masculine aspect. But this only for the puny human mind to focus on something rather than focucsing on 'the one'. The Hindu religion believes that the mind operates on images and memory hence the many forms (Murtees/moortees) but it always insists on the fact that there is only one god. It also clarifies that Hindus dont pray to the Murtees, they pray to what the Murtis represent.

[QG]

the explanation i found out about that, can't remember it exactly, but same thing i was thinking about. its a grammatical default. and the reason for that being the grammatical default are more or less stated above,

i is not a scholar, but some things catch my interest and i find out what the more learned people think about it, and see if what they thinking making sense. so, as i stated before, don't use me alone as the demonstration of islam.

Don't get offended bud, I put only you because of the statement made b4 that I wanted to talk on. People like to comment on behalf of others and I just wanted to hear what YOU had to say.


Cool D spike!

[QG]

Cool dark_lord_tnt!

[sMASH]

ok, i'll take the bait. how is hinduism set up that women are placed as equal to men, but not so in the abrahamic religions? what things would make women subservient to men in those, and what makes them equal in the religion of the idus lands?
and u said just because islam is derived from christianity it inherited male domination?

[dark_lord_tnt]

ok, i'll take the bait. how is hinduism set up that women are placed as equal to men, but not so in the abrahamic religions? what things would make women subservient to men in those, and what makes them equal in the religion of the idus lands?
and u said just because islam is derived from christianity it inherited male domination?

1.) women and men equality in hinduism

Since ancient India, women occupied a very important position, in fact a superior position to, men. It is a culture whose only words for strength and power are feminine -"Shakti'' means "power'' and "strength.'' All male power comes from the feminine. Literary evidence suggests that kings and towns were destroyed because a single woman was wronged by the state. For example, Valmiki's Ramayana teaches us that Ravana and his entire clan was wiped out because he abducted Sita. Veda Vyasa's Mahabharatha teaches us that all the Kauravas were killed because they humiliated Draupadi in public. Elango Adigal's Sillapathigaram teaches us Madurai, the capital of the Pandyas was burnt because Pandyan Nedunchezhiyan mistakenly killed her husband on theft charges.

In Vedic times women and men were equal as far as education and religion was concerned. Women participated in the public sacrifices alongside men. One text mentions a female rishi Visvara. Some Vedic hymns, are attributed to women such as Apala, the daughter of Atri, Ghosa, the daughter of Kaksivant or Indrani, the wife of Indra. Apparently in early Vedic times women also received the sacred thread and could study the Vedas. The Haritasmrti mentions a class of women called brahmavadinis who remained unmarried and spent their lives in study and ritual. Panini's distinction between arcarya (a lady teacher) and acaryani (a teacher's wife), and upadhyaya (a woman preceptor) and upadhyayani ( a preceptor's wife) indicates that women at that time could not only be students but also teachers of sacred lore. He mentions the names of several noteworthy women scholars of the past such as Kathi, Kalapi, and Bahvici. The Upanishads refer to several women philosophers, who disputed with their male colleagues such as Vacaknavi, who challenged Yajnavalkya. The Rig Veda also refers to women engaged in warfare. One queen Bispala is mentioned, and even as late a witness as Megasthenes (fifth century B.C. E.) mentions heavily armed women guards protecting Chandragupta's palace.

Louis Jaccoliot, the celebrated French author of the Bible in India: Hindoo Origin of Hebrew and Christian Revelation said: "India of the Vedas entertained a respect for women amounting to worship; a fact which we seem little to suspect in Europe when we accuse the extreme East of having denied the dignity of woman, and of having only made her an instrument of pleasure and of passive obedience." He also said: "What! here is a civilization, which you cannot deny to be older than your own, which places the woman on a level with the man and gives her an equal place in the family and in society."

In closing , In all hindu text women and men are equals. Even during a hindu marriage the priest always will emphasis this, Where a man nor woman cannot make a decision without the consent of their married partner. The priest will also use as a reference where the woman is the light (happiness) of a home without her joy is not there. The priest shows that the woman runs and controls the household, handling financial affairs etc where as the man's role is earning and providing. Think of it women are much better at budgeting than a man, while she only does whats necessary we do what ever we want and often fall short..

"Women enjoyed far greater freedom in the Vedic period than in later India. She had more to say in the choice of her mate than the forms of marriage might suggest. She appeared freely at feasts and dances, and joined with men in religious sacrifice. She could study, and like Gargi, engage in philosophical disputation. If she was left a widow there were no restrictions upon her remarriage."

Its mans fear of getting "Horned" is the cause of this nonsense.

2.) women in Judaism and Christianity

Ever since the dawn of this religion )from what text you may know) women are often portrayed as insignificant and servants. When the Church compiled the canon they had 3 basic qualities for the text chosen,
a.) Each book must represent God and Jesus as a Supreme Entity
b.) Women Cannot be shown to be equal to man
c.) The Church must retain its rights and power..

Now thats how you have the bible (canon) of which you know of today, Show me where in it 1 of the above laws were broken. In each text women was shown to have no power at all. Now here is what you dont know.
Firstly consider this, Have you read the book of creation (no not genesis) you will see in genesis that there is double creation as I discussed before but more importantly The reason for such was actually to EDIT a part of the text hence the missing and anomalies. God Created Adam and Lilith at the same time proclaiming them equals, When Adam though eve should be his subservient a he her superior, Lilith pleaded her case to Adam but he would not listen and ordered her around, With her love or him she did as she was told, At last when she could not any loner she climbed a mountain and cried and cursed God for creating the deceitful creature known as man and when she called gods name she gained powers and Became who we know today as the DEVIL. Then god learnt what had happened Came to adam saw him and was not at all happy, He Created Eve for him, put them out of the garden and into the world of man. Now The reason for this is to show you the great lengths man took to show woman had no power the editing and lies etc.
Oh want another example if that dont fit your needs ??
In the new testament Why was Joseph (jesus's father) only mentioned at his birth and round that but not later in his life ??? Well if you have the Book Of Judas, The Epistle By Thomas or Even the Book Of Mary Magdalene Of Even The Virgins Birth Belived to be written by Jesus Mother her self.. You would learn that Mary Madelina was actually A daughter of A general , Joseph was His Prodigy and Mary was given to Him for his wife (she asked not him). Now Jesus was laid in a manger .. Do you know why ?? In the past there wasnt any such things as a Crib. A manager Or animal Feeding Box (not the poor folks one they just tossed grain on the ground) Yeah but They were rich thats why Joseph could afford the Manger. Any way When Mary did approve with the village elders who thought she was no one And Joseph agreed with this he banished her. And you do realize I didnt mention anything about an immaculate conception (but Joseph was not Jesus Biological father). So Many of the Books were rewritten in some cases forged To change all this and they came up with what we have today. But You dont believe me so Ask your self this,, Why does Mark claim Jesus was crucified on the 12th hour before the Sabbath and yet John Says the 3rd Hour before the Sabbath. And Before you answer ,, They were in the same time zone, Same Place , And together and even if they had the sabbath of 2 different days (e.g Saturday and Sunday) This is still Crap cause a day before the sabbath and a day after the sabbath gives a day in between.. So this goes to show the lengths That Man went too..

3.) ISLAM
Do you know the origin of islam ??? I'll give a brief summary
Mohammad was a *** year old man married to ***********, When she died he inherited her ******, which he then used to******** etc. (Greatly reduced summary).. Any way at first they were to bow toward the temple in Jerusalem and pray but when The Prophet attempted to enter the temple they laughed at him and put him out. He went back to His people and Said god ordered them to bow toward Mecca his place of birth and Pray.
It was just to answer your question how Islam came from Christianity..

[d spike]

When the Church compiled the canon they had 3 basic qualities for the text chosen,
a.) Each book must represent God and Jesus as a Supreme Entity
b.) Women Cannot be shown to be equal to man
c.) The Church must retain its rights and power..

I would really like to know where this particular information comes from.

[dark_lord_tnt]

for certain reasons I cannot explain where it comes from ,, but you can find references of it if you know where to look.

but i will say this,, Jerome,, Latin circa 450 CE.. the Vulgate "Vatican Library"

Deuteronomy it says that if a man marries a woman and then decides that he hates her, he can claim she wasn't a virgin when they married. At that point her father must prove she was a virgin. (How is not explained.) If he can't, then the girl is to be stoned to death at her father's doorstep.

If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death." (Deuteronomy)

In the book of Esther the king apparently decrees a sex contest among young virgin women to see who can best please him. (There is debate on how.) He eventually chooses Esther. However, since women are viewed as inherently dirty, Esther must be "purified" for twelve months before she can be made queen. (Esther)

Paul points out in New Testament Romans that "the natural use" of women is to provide men with sex. (Romans)

Heaven is to be inhabited by 144,000 virgin men who have not been "defiled" by women. (RE 14:1-4) [One wonders how this squares with God's command to, "Be fruitful and multiply...(Genesis )]

A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's wife: "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine (wife); let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The women were subsequently ravished and killed. (JG)

Under God's direction, Moses' army kills all the adult males, but they mercifully just take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some women and children alive, he angrily says: "Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him." Throughout Bible history God is said to demand that thousands, if not millions, of men, women and children be slaughtered. And they are.

man has an obligation to produce a child with his brother's widow. If he refuses, his sister-in-law is to spit in his face in front of the elders. (Deuteronomy 25:5-9) And in case you are Jewish, you may be familiar with the Jewish prayer: "Blessed be the God who has not created me a heathen, a slave or a woman."

-Bishop John Shelby Spong

[sMASH]

When the Church compiled the canon they had 3 basic qualities for the text chosen,
a.) Each book must represent God and Jesus as a Supreme Entity
b.) Women Cannot be shown to be equal to man
c.) The Church must retain its rights and power..

from ur reading, was that policy or was it unspoken norm which continued? what i mean is, even if a scribe did not want to write things to those effects but had to because that what was supposed to be done, or did those things happen because the people who did it had similar intentions?


from ur explanation, i do not gather how the directives and guideline in islam were derived from changing the quibla from jerusalem to macca. since he was shunned, as u said, he would have probably felt dejected, explaining why he changed the quibla. but if he did that big thing, he would have done more to separate his teachings from them, but many things stay very close, even reverence for jesus(pbuh) is still there. this supports ur claim that it is a derivative of christianity, and supplying motive, but certain things changed and some things stay the same. too many things are different for me to see that it is a merely derived from christianity, and to many things are similar for me to see that his actions stemmed from being rejected by the jerusalem folk.

u supplied much information from the religion from the indus lands demonstrating how women are classed as equal to men.
in islam, we are not taught that women are equal to men, men and women are not equals. men and women, generally have different traits, abilities, tendencies, etc. so are not created equal. but this is not saying that women are lesser to men. u say that in hinduism, some treatment of women neared worship, this is nearly placing women greater than men. we do not teach that women are greater than men. we learn from islam, that women and men were created differently, so treatment must be fair to what they demonstrate. so the term equity is used. both are different, and generally intended to perform differing functions, but those functions are equally important.
now this is what i believe, and my supply of words may be biased because of that.
would u mind stating, from what u learned and understand, what things in islam are there which make women lesser than men? BUT, also, what things allow women to be treated in respectable manner.

[dark_lord_tnt]

Its Both, The norm is that women were inferior, The words of the scribes were to also reflect this and even the church doctrine was chosen as such. There is no way in the christian bible you can point that women were not inferior any such record was removed..

My point was Islam did originate from Christianity it doesn't mean that its the same thing. Islam is radically different in many ways. The point i was trying to make is that the BASE concept is still there. Think of it like this, Africans brought their culture to Trinidad even though they were slaves, It has since intertwined itself into christanity leading to the shoutai baptist!!! See what I mean ?? another example is Hindus, They came from india brought their culture yet it has changed but remains the same !!!

So for Islam ,, The concept of One God, came from Christianity which came from Judaism.
Women are subservient came from the same.
Now you yourself said they are not equals yet server different paths. But think of this. A man can have 7 wives .. Why cant a woman have 7 husbands. Yes I agree that the quran says that each wife has to be treated equally but we both know this is impossible, there would always be favorites. Not withstanding that even instruction the quran gives to women shows that they are subservient to man, from decision making, To public relations even to how they can speak, who they can touch everything.. She must keep her body covered, but the man has the ability to dress as he pleases, while he cant talk to anyone, the women are not, while he can great others and shake hands the women cannot, while he can have 7 wives the women cannot. As i said subservient. Religion has done all it can to suggest women are nothing more than the slaves of men.

You missed the point, Women and men are equals in Hinduism, God has been subjected to both mescaline and feminine forms to show this. The Women are not greater than men or men greater that women but equal necessary parts of nature. The women that were fought for in Hinduism goes to show how deeply respect goes, Justice. Women who were wronged had justice just as men who were. A queen had a as much power and adoration as a king.

Where i learnt or how i know these things doesn't matter, evidence of it can be found it the scriptures and teachings it self, As you can see with all my previous post I always draw reference from the currently used doctrines. very rare will i quote something that inst bu i do give reference and history with it. In most doctrines you will find the traits where mean are always superior and gives some kinds of wannabe justification for such mostly involving God. Proof can be found right there with you, the Sunni the Shi'a., the Sufi , the Ahmaddiya.. you all use the same quran ??? why are the teachings different ?? Well actually you all dont use the same quran Similar to bibilcal scriptures it has also been changed , No matter they claim it to be original and unchanged and even say to keep it so they try to mentain the original language. It has been changed. Do you know there are several variations to the Quran ? for example take the Ahmaddiya. Their teachings suggest the Mahdi/Messiah returned in the Indian Hazrat Ghulam Ahmed in 1835. They have a well-organized missionary society and publishing program worldwide. Ahmed claimed to be Jesus in another life as the returned Mahdi/Messiah. He meant to unite all true Muslims and Christians into the one true religion. He was rejected by both. Ahmaddiya world headquarters is in Lahore, Pakistan. Ahmaddiyas are refused permission to make the Hajj, because the Pakistan government has reported to Sa'udi officials that the Ahmaddiyas are not true Muslims. Yet they use the oldest variation of the quran and the Gospel of thomas..

Then take the Shi'a and the Sunni and the Sufi,, Do you know how the 3 came about ?? When one of the Imam died I cant recall if its Imam Roshan, There was a fight cause one group argued that his material possession should be given to his wife yet the other group wanted it to go to the eldest son and the other one wanted it to go to the son and the wife should be killed cause she spoke out for her rights .. Why is this ??? People say its 1 Quran but its not its very different and left to many different interpretation. They also say It has never changed But it has 6 times counted thus far from evidence found. One such is the Dome of the Rock when renovating the ceiling, stuffed in it was copies of the oldest version of the quran ever found, While some remains unchanged its radically different from what you have today. The circumcision that originated from Abraham, Where did Jesus Go after another person died on the cross in his place. A man can oly have 1 wife, A wife is equal to the man. If the man wants a divorce all his possession should be given to the wife, A woman can remarry , She has rights and can speak in courts and in her defense and can venture freely anywhere she wishes Just everything a man can do.

Well thats enough of my jabbering I think you get the point as well as refrence material you can research if you so to choose.

1. Sunni--Military: Sudan, Libya

Royal: Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Jordan.

2. Shi'a--Royal: Iran, under the Safawi Shah

Old Fatimid dynasty of Egypt, Syria

Hierarchical dictatorship: Revolutionary Iran under Khomeini

Representative democracy (or parliamentary dictatorship): Iran under an Ayatollah with Majlis and a president



3. Secular--Democratic dictatorship: Turkey, Egypt. Muslim, but non-"lslamic" politically. Both Turkey and Egypt have moved to systems more like full Western secular republics. Turkey has had full civilian constitutional rule since 1982. Syria's constitution declares Syria to be a Socialist State, but specifies that the president shall be a Muslim.

the dark one
Ed.D., Ph.D.

[QG]

Hmm, very interesting read!

[sMASH]

the fact that u said muslim men can have 7 wives, is wrong, they can have up to 4, where 1 wife is the instruction but up to 4 is a permission. but ur point is noted of men having more spouses than women. the rationale behind that would be viewed as interpretation just like ur post there, and lends itself easily to argument.

men and women can shake hands in public, if is a close familiar relationship, men are encourage to embrace like in those of eastern europe, and women encouraged to kiss...... but men contact with men, and women contact with women.

men cannot dress any which way they please, though the restrictions are less than those for women, there are still restrictions. men are encouraged not to clothe to the bare minimum but be well covered, that is why most obvious muslim men are not scantily clad.

women can go where they please, but should go with company. *oh noes, look, they oppress women and make them go in groups* do u send ur girl child to the parlor alone in the evening?
simple guidelines for women in present society to venture in groups as lone females are easily subject to attack. modern society only after many women have been assaulted, have come up with that. we have it as part of our religion and we are oppressive, u have it after u have given bad men free reign over liberated lone females, to try to offer them some sort of protection, and ur evolving.

i am aware of the circumstances leading to the formation of the amadiya. but there are two sects with in them, one which believes that the founder is the messiah, and one which believes that he is the mehdi. the prophecies involving the return of the messiah have not come to pass so we think that those who think he was the messiah return are mistaken. the circumstances of him being the mehdi, cannot be proven nor disproved effectively, so they cannot be faulted, and those are not inhibited in any way. actually none of them supposed to be inhibited as long as they perform the basic standard duties.
i am not aware that they have a different qur'an.
if they do things differently because of the traditions, it is a fault of the people not the religion.

the fact that sects are all popping up is a sign in the qur'an. we are guided to not have different sects, but told that different sects would happen any way.

i assumed u had significant knowledge about all major religions, and i see that u have stressed on the limits islam has placed on the followers. but some things what u stated are wrong. i would have liked that u point out the limits, but also the rights. all the good things which elevate women in islam, u neglected totally, and just emphasized ur view that it is oppressive against women.

u say u study the contemporary portrayals of the religions, but u did not say that in hindu societies that bride pays the groom the dowry, the males are treated better than the females, it is often trouble to get a girl married off, sometimes burdensome, lots of female infanticide etc. the religion supposed to make women well respected, yet they are not being treated fairly at present.

ur facts seem to be biased, skewed, limited, sometimes wrong. i can tolerate that, as i am forgiving, but ur intentions for stating any thing at all, i have a problem with. u are bashing here, i have no problem with that, as long as some one learns sumthing, or some one benefits somehow. but i dont see us being enlightened by ur posts. some people here post because they showing their religion as best they can, some people here showing them what what they talkin dont make sense and they should turn it down a notch because not every body sees it the way they do. some people come to put us in our places after being over zealous and condemning others. we learn sumthing at the end.
with ur posts, i just seeing bashing. not to teach, not to guide, but to demonstrate that some one has great number of facts. in my opinion, ur contributions are not well intended and may be just to get attention.

u had an opportunity to show that u know the good and the bad of the religions, but u stressed only on the popular bad to prove ur point, and the ancient good only to prove ur point.
if u have knowledge, share it.

u need to re-evaluate ur purpose for posting here. i not telling u not to post, just when u post, make some sense and try to help some one.

and ur much valued knowledge base,,,, it needs increasing.

sMASH
abc., xyz., 123., doh ray me.