The Religion Discussion

[d spike]

It is a very straightforward question deserving of a straightforward answer.
you asked a question based on your assumption that I do not, wouldn't it it be easier for you to ask me if I do these things ? then you would get a straight forward answer like yes but then what? you would then ask me why are they still sick people in there
but since you want to know here are two stories
the 1st one goes like this , this was the very first time I did this
an old lady suffering with cancer and just came out from surgery I went up to her bed side
and started talking to her and I notice some magazines from a religious group piled up on her bedside (about over 20)so I asked her if it hers and if she read all of them but she answered no its a family member that brought them there to give her comfort
anyways I said to her that there is nothing in there that can help her
but there is one named Jesus who can and it is him who she needs
then I asked her if she want to receive from him(Jesus),she replied yes
so I stretched forth my hands and as I said "in the name of Jesus Christ"........
the woman grabbed hold of my hand so tight and she would not let go
and I started commanding the pains to go and commanding healing in her body
until she started to relax letting go of my hands with a great smile on her face

2nd story this 70 year old lady had her two kidney broken down
she was in pain and even had ear ache and was bed ridden
my girlfriend prayed for her ears while I commanded healing in her kidneys and we rebuked all the pain in the name of Jesus then I asked her if she wants to walk and she said yes
we prayed for her again and commanded her body to be strengthen , I said to her lets take a walk outside and she did get up and walked with us unassisted and without pain
all in the mighty name of Jesus Christ

Apart from some missing punctuation and the "anyways", this is quite well written - for megadoc, that is. The subject-verb agreement and proper use of tense are far better than his usual fare. Who helped you write this, lad?

And the girlfriend mentioned here... is that the same one you were bumping uglies with while she was possessed? Or is this yet another victim of yours?
I hope your ability to deal with temptation is far better than your usual grammar... remember, fornication is a no-no...

Thats if u read other books besides the bible

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you...
megadoc made it very clear in a previous thread that he doesn't require, nor is he interested in, any book other that the bible.

breds I even come across Christians who won't let you lay hands on them

You mean like Benny Hinn not wanting a particular woman to "lay hands" on him?

how do you explain healing and exorcism in Hinduism and Islam? I don't really want to go into that again

it can happen but as I said before it would be a waste of time for me to go in explaining that to you...

Why? He asked a question... you can't answer? What's the matter? Your friend isn't answering the phone, so you are denied assistance to write another lucid post?
The fact that the query was made means the first attempt at explaining it was not good enough.

This has to be on the list of most bullsheit videos on utube.
Cmon seriously? This video is so wrong on so many levels. Take a read of this book "lectures on ancient philosophies" by manly P HALL (Chapter 7) to be exact. Megadoc i dare you!! lets discuss it...im very serious. You seem intelligent so i would like to hear your thoughts on it! Thats if u read other books besides the bible If you are indeed serious, how about this I dare you to come stand in the presence of God while his saints are in worship and allow him to touch you, I guarantee all what you think you know will be brought to naught
and discussion wont be necessary ...

Nice cop-out, megs!

and discussion is impossible ...why do you want to waste your time ? ...see d spike's sig and consider it

Fixed.

Fellas like megadoc aren't actually Christians, yuh know. They're tools of the devil, obfuscating and making such a mockery of Christianity that they're actually pushing people away from the beliefs.how can you make a statement like that when you know for sure you don't have a clue on what you are saying? why not investigate ?

Whatever do you mean, "don't have a clue", "investigate"? Didn't you post your material here? Has he not read it? The only way he could not understand what you are really up to, is if you did not post honest and true material... If you are aware of a failing on your part to accurately and properly post, then perhaps that is what needs your attention... not querying those who, on the basis of what they view in your posted material, recognize it for what it is... unadulterated nonsense.

I read his posts in here and if I eh laughin, I steupsin. thats all good you can't say you didnt hear

Neither can you say he didn't read it... based on his response, he certainly did.

would you mind proving this to me ? how do you know this?

The very fact that you can't disprove it, speaks for itself...

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

look it up

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

a little harsh but open minded is getting all sides of the coin

[Humes]

because it is either you are not paying attention to what we are saying and just mouthing orf
or you missed the part where I said God respects our free will and does not force Himself on us

So it's our will running things, rather than God's?

Cool.

[16 cycles]

Avatar (3D) back in cinemas - much less crowd to see it...

[Humes]

Local?

[16 cycles]

^ yeah - saw it for the first time at MT yesterday

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

because it is either you are not paying attention to what we are saying and just mouthing orf
or you missed the part where I said God respects our free will and does not force Himself on us

So it's our will running things, rather than God's?

Cool.

it seems they can't decide whether it's our free will or God's will that makes things happen

they claim we have free will (sMash sees it interestingly as free choice) yet bluefete makes the statement that God wanted Kamla to win the election and so she did... where is the free will in that?

They claim we have free will but a healer (like megadoc1) needs to "put forth" his hands on the sick and will the sickness out of the ailing in God's name. The sick person cannot will themselves better apparently, even the healer megadoc1 said he gets sick and gets pains and arthritis.

We have free will but God can will a great flood when our free will goes too far against his will.
How free is free?
Is it more like "almost free will"?
"Not free will but with a rebate"?
Is it that the concept of free will is just a poor excuse for "We are not sure what to believe and this cop-out seems to keep alot of gullible people quiet"?

Which is it?

[sMASH]

word play, but it makes sense. if i had free will, i could will the bank account to over flow. just like i could will a universe into presence. but we don't have free will, we have free choice, though. we cannot create things or situations by mere will, but we can choose to act or react from the choices we are provided. i cannot will my self to be hydrated, but i can choose to take a glass of water and drink it.

god has free will. if he so designs, he could make a universe, make cheese or remove sin. he is not bound by rules, as he makes the rules. he doesn't have to set up an elaborate scenario to grant us salvation, he could do at at will. the problem is that we need to show that we deserve salvation.
this may bring a theist to ponder upon their purpose for being created. an atheist would not be thinking about their purpose along the same path or trend.


an atheist may believe, if i may be so presumptuous, that this life is all there is, and there is no hereafter. i do not, i think there is life after death......... everybody, get real, no body knows for sure what happens after death, so no quotes. i think there is a life after death, the atheists may not think so, either way , no body has knowledge or proof.

i think we all get what we deserve, just probably not immediately when we deserve it. this ties in with my belief in a here after. so the people who do good but have some sin, they may suffer some time in hell to atone for what was not forgiven until they are deemed worthy to attain heaven. some people may suffer here immeasurably for no good reason, like the poor children in africa, but they would be repaid for that in the here after, with heaven. some people would be wicked and evil, and deserve nothing good, but they live comfortably. they would be paid for what little good they do in this world, and pay for the bad they do in the next.
when i think of god, i think about equity rather than love. a god of only love is irrational and doesn't explain the children of africa and the baby seals of the arctic and the food animals of america and the forests of europe.
a god of equity, these sufferings would be of no matter in of them selves, but a tool to measure the ability of us to do the right thing when presented with choices. they would not matter because he could will them not to suffer, of repay them for the suffering in the hereafter. he is the master of the day of judgment and the most merciful. he decides what goes on, not us, and it is decided on judgment day, not here and now. not one of us can be certain that we are living up to our potential as god created us with, and he would judge that. claims that u are already saved are bold and somewhat making u controlling of god. this also makes a mockery of the day of judgment.

i forgot what else i was going to say....

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ fair enough that is what you believe

but when you say "a god of equity, these sufferings would be of no matter in of them selves, but a tool to measure the ability of us to do the right thing when presented with choices." What choice does the baby in africa have? Also if God can repay the child in the hereafter it would depend on the child seeking salvation with God, what if the child was born in another religious environment?

if it is infact a system of equity, then God's owes humans for any hardships we didnt bring on ourselves?

[sMASH]

with the baby or child in africa, they would be judged according to what they did with what they had, as is it were, we all would be judged according to what we did with what we had. is just that they have less than us so have less to account for. and we believe that every one starts out sinless and then accrues sin as we go along, so if a baby died, they would be perfect. children are children and are not accountable for themselves, and until they mature their parents are.
if they were born in another religious environment, same applies. is just that if they never had the opportunity to investigate islam, then they would not be judged according to the specific rules of islam like praying five times a day, but judged according to the general rules of being a good person which are prevalent in all major religions.
work beckons, and more needed to be explained, so questions are expected.

[trini mk5]

A quote form Pythagoras. "All men know what they want, but few know what they need. Pythagoras warned his disciples that when they prayed they should not pray for themselves;that when they asked things of the Gods they should not ask things for themselves,because no man knows what is good for him and it is for this reason undesirable to ask for things which obtained,would only prove to be injurious."

100% agree with the above statement.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

with the baby or child in africa, they would be judged according to what they did with what they had, as is it were, we all would be judged according to what we did with what we had. is just that they have less than us so have less to account for. and we believe that every one starts out sinless and then accrues sin as we go along, so if a baby died, they would be perfect. children are children and are not accountable for themselves, and until they mature their parents are.
if they were born in another religious environment, same applies. is just that if they never had the opportunity to investigate islam, then they would not be judged according to the specific rules of islam like praying five times a day, but judged according to the general rules of being a good person which are prevalent in all major religions.
work beckons, and more needed to be explained, so questions are expected.

all well and good, but why the extreme pain and suffering of the faithful in Somalia and Ethiopia from sickness and starvation.

[trini mk5]

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ I think that one was posted in this thread before along with the one by Billy Connolly

it's one thing to question logic, but it's not so nice when they make comedy about anyone's religion - even though I must admit I LOL'd a few times when watching it

this one is extremely harsh and one sided, however I am curious about the passages read out at the end of the video: Toyo, bluefete and megadoc1 what is your take on the verses that promote slavery, disapprove of long hair, stoning people and the others?

[sparky]

All human beings are born with a conscience, place their by God, it dictates to us a sense of right or wrong by our action and choices we make,in the absence of not knowing truth we will be judged by it. However if we knowingly and willingly refuse truth,we bring condemnation onto our self. The choice is always before us.

[d spike]

All human beings are born with a conscience, place their by God, it dictates to us a sense of right or wrong by our action and choices we make,in the absence of not knowing truth we will be judged by it. However if we knowingly and willingly refuse truth,we bring condemnation onto our self. The choice is always before us.

Excellent point!
However, it hinges on this:

if we knowingly and willingly refuse truth...

and "knowingly" implies that what it IS must be clear (in order to be identified) and "willingly" implies that we have identified it for what it IS.

When someone spouts a set of irrational nonsense in which is hidden a grain of truth, can the listener be blamed for discarding what he hears as nonsense, including the truth? For how can he tell the difference?
If others, who seem far more sane, expound this same new truth, agreeing with the idiot referred to earlier, yet refuse to correct his nonsense - thus implying their condoning and agreeing to all he said - what is the listener expected to think? He knows he heard the first speaker talking crap, and despite the sense the following speakers said, their agreeing with the first puts their argument on the same level as the cretin.

Now, the question of witnessing, that is, living a life that reflects your belief.
If a drink has a magnificent bouquet, but all who drink it go mad - would you taste it? A person who preaches that all must follow, as he does, the path of goodness, virtue and truth... yet lies, accuses falsely, rebukes, condemns and tells questioning or dissenting voices to "shut up"... is this the actions of of one who follows such a path? Clearly, something is wrong with either the path, or the compass of the preacher.

If such a truth as preached, is open to question - for it cannot be truth if it does not cause its followers to reflect it in their actions, nor can it be truth if it does not appear to be truth, for would truth reveal itself as a lie? - then can one IDENTIFY it as being truth? If one cannot identify it as truth, then it is impossible to KNOW it is truth, and to then WILLINGLY refuse it.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

All human beings are born with a conscience, place their by God, it dictates to us a sense of right or wrong by our action and choices we make,in the absence of not knowing truth we will be judged by it. However if we knowingly and willingly refuse truth,we bring condemnation onto our self. The choice is always before us.

but what about someone in China or a tribe in the Amazon whose tribe has never heard of Christianity before and worship their God faithfully.Their conscience tells them to pray to their God, not Jesus. What about them? According to the bible they are headed for hell.

[d spike]

but what about someone in China or a tribe in the Amazon whose tribe has never heard of Christianity before and worship their God faithfully.Their conscience tells them to pray to their God, not Jesus. What about them? According to the bible they are headed for hell.

Not really. According to most of the bible, once they worship God, treat each other fairly, and care for one another, then they are not "headed for hell". The only part of the bible that says otherwise is the one containing letters written by followers of Jesus - and these were written as letters (not scripture) SPECIFICALLY for other folks who were already followers of Jesus.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ sorry sorry,
let me edit it to "According to megadoc1 and Toyo, those people are headed for hell"

speaking of whom, they haven't posted since Wednesday - they must be working on a cure for cancer.

[d spike]

I am a confirmed catholic....what does that mean?just that ....a catholic

No, not really. Though a catholic is a member of the RC faith, a confirmed catholic is one who is accepted as an "adult" christian, no longer a child (one can argue that the catholic rite of Confirmation is a "christian adult initiation" ceremony) and is expected to take up his duties as a mature adult Christian (bury the dead, and so forth). This involves dedicating the candidates for confirmation to the Holy Spirit.
It amazes me that someone would actually attempt to answer a question publicly, without knowing what he is talking about.
I guess some people are just not embarrassed by public displays of ignorance any more.

Will i get into heaven easier? no based on that faith it becomes harder/impossible

Hardly likely. In fact, being more aware of that which is of God, puts a greater burden on you - from the point of view of "to him that much is given, much will be expected". One can argue that, compared to the loinclothed pygmy who promises the Big Spirit that he won't beat his wife when he's angry, and try not to eat more than his fair share at dinner, and leave a few berries in the trees for the birds, a lot more is expected from you... but (in my opinion) that isn't exactly a "choice" you were in a position to make, as that is the straw fate pulled for you.
For megadoc to say that getting an invite to the big party in paradise would be harder for you based on your particular faith, is just his ignorant bias floating up to the top again and making itself known.
A Catholic might very well say, "Of course it would!", a Buddhist might say that it probably wouldn't matter, while a Jainist would tell all of you that if any of you kicked a crapaud, then none of you would experience God's actual presence.

If Jesus died for our sins then we all should be sin free right?no Jesus died to make atonement for our sins and through our faith in him we are given power to be free from the bondages of sin

More incomprehension on megadoc's part. His Christian faith clearly states that man fell from grace (a probably perfect relationship with God), and since then suffered from concupiscence (your appetites are now greater than your reason). Christians believe Jesus' death rebuilt that link between God and man, giving humans something to attain. Our own sins/transgressions still need to be dealt with. Jesus' sacrifice now allows our imperfect attempts at atonement to be made pefect in the sight of God.

But then we were born into sin because of Adam and EVe RIGHT? we inherited that sinful nature yes

Again, error rears its ugly head, this time thanks to excessive flowery language used by churchmen. Man's loss of his original link with God is referred to as original SIN, but it is actually a lack of something, rather than an evil presence - so it is no "sinful nature" (is a newborn child "sinful"?) just a simple absence of a far better relationship with God that must be developed in life.

So if we were born into sin and people kill in GOD's name and killing is also a sin then Jesus died in vain?nope Jesus is God in flesh all they did was transgress God's law by killing him
the very transgressions he came to make atonement for which includes lying,stealing, adultery etc

Good grief. Anyway, I think I covered this error above.

But why would GOD send his only son to be crucified by us knowing full well he will rise in 3days?
he came with that authority to lay his life down and to take it back up
to make atonement for our sins someone must pay the price for breaking God's law but because of his love towards us he lay down his own life so that we can live

To understand this, one must understand the Jewish culture of sacrifice as it existed then. An unblemished animal's life was offered to remove the stain of sin, to bring the people of God back to "oneness" with God. Christians believe that Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice, his death removing the stain from our lives, bringing us back to "oneness" with God. We still suffer as humans the weight of concupiscence, but when we slip into sin, we can beg forgiveness AND atone for our misdeeds, and what we do in this regard is made perfect.
Christians believe that Jesus was truly Man and truly God. As a man, he suffered and died. His resurrection does not negate the fact that he died.

But what good will ppl killiNG god son do, just what it did that is to free us from bondage to sin

Megadoc, if we are "free of the bondage of sin, then why are we still sinning? Dotishness.
Trini mk5, His death was the ultimate sacrifice - but somebody had to do it, in order for it to get done...

since GOD sent him on this earth knowing full well what will happen, because GOD knows and see's all things. I don't get it? its easy that is what he came to do
its not by accident this happened

Good answer, megadoc. There's hope for you yet.

Can you enlighten me?maybe ..

Certainly not megadoc.
He barely understands half of what he claims to believe, probably because of the poor communication skills which he clearly suffers from. Of the eight questions asked here (excluding this one, of course) megadoc has managed to mangle the answers to seven of them.

[trini mk5]

d spike, most of those questions i asked was with the intention of being silly. I do not subscribe to any religion again because of these same reasons(that doesn't mean i don't believe in GOD)
People like megadoc may be strong in their faith but they FAIL to understand anyone else's view point once it is different to them....and to me that is sad. We are all unique, have the gift of free will/thinking, so it is only logical that we will have different view points but those differences is what makes this world "special" as "stupid" as some peoples beliefs are.

[sparky]

To me, the concept of Jesus and Sin is simple. When man sinned, Satan was adopted as his daddy and as such inherited all of his ways of which there is no way out. GOD on the other hand provided a way of escape for man, so we can once more have the opportunity to experience our true daddy character. If people of other belief who practice the slaying of animals for sins really understand real purpose of it, Jesus would not be a question

[d spike]

If people of other belief who practice the slaying of animals for sins really understand real purpose of it, Jesus would not be a question

"If people of other belief" would not make vacuous and thoughtless remarks about that which they know nothing of...

Since when is Jesus a question?

And who, might I ask, is slaying animals for sins without understanding the purpose for it?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

When man sinned, Satan was adopted as his daddy

Who laid down this rule?

Didn't God know that man was going to sin?

[trini mk5]

When man sinned, Satan was adopted as his daddy

Who laid down this rule?

Didn't God know that man was going to sin?

This is my whole point!! If GOD knows and sees all things, then how come we have to repent for sins knowing full well that GOD knows our fate in the first place. Then to me it seems like a big game where we have to apologize for offenses committed even though the almighty knew that we would commit them anyway.
So what was the point of Jesus christ being crucified on a cross?
What does it really symbolize? A sacrifice to god to relieve us of our sins, that GOD fully well knew we would commit?


As a layman it seems to me that there was too much "focus groups" involvement in the final printing of the bible....because it continues to contradict itself on more than one occasion and has as much credibility as the Weapons of Mass Destruction story.

[sMASH]

all well and good, but why the extreme pain and suffering of the faithful in Somalia and Ethiopia from sickness and starvation.

it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to gain heaven. exactly as stated previously somewhere, the more u have the more responsibility u have. a poor man may get the same reward in heaven for providing a meal to a starving person as a rich man making a hospital. the proportional good they do to the good they could do.
every one would get what they deserve, eventually. if u suffer greatly here without no obvious reason, then u would be recompensed that in the next life.
when an atheist thinks about that situation u have above and says that this is all there is and every thing is just random, i think that there has to be more, and things cant be so blatantly unjust. so, i hope that there is retribution, if not in this world, in another.
my personality makes me think that there is more to life than what is obvious.

[QG]

Didn't God know that man was going to sin?

That's another Question that has been puzzling and arises ever so often.

It's like...Did God knew Adam would have eaten the fruit that he was not suppose to? Or Did God only knew after Adam had eaten it and try to hid it from God?

[sparky]

That demonstrate the kind of love God has for this world and its people. despite God knowing all the wrong things I sparky would do in my life time,he still granted this life which i have

[sMASH]

^^ that's why in islam it is considered a mistake or slip rather than a grave sin. this makes more sense to me. islam also says that there is only one tree of which the fruit is forbidden and not two. this also seems more likely to me because the tree's fruit has no extra power or ability; the only difference between this fruit and that of any other tree was that god forbade its eating. the telling also makes it seem that a tree was chosen at random. the power of the fruit was not important, but the restriction from eating it as a command from god was the important part.
the fact that there were two trees and each of them had distinct and significant power would have more meaning to them than what as told in the story; there would be more to the story than what is told. but the most important thing which develops was that adam (pbuh) and his wife disobeyed, and in islam we are told that they both begged forgiveness, and were equally forgiven, where as in the bible they are cruelly sinned and woman given a greater punishment because she is supposed to have been more at fault. (based from this the male jews have a prayer where they thank god for not making them female)
the islamic telling and interpretation appeals to me more; is like reading a science text in std 4 and reading the same principles in an a'level text...