The Religion Discussion

[megadoc1]

nope u are wrong, jesus (pbuh) did not say that belief in him was the way to salvation , who did say so were people who heard about a man name john, and heard about a man name mark and heard about a man name matt, and a fellar name paul and et al, etc. apparently u reading the wrong book.do you mind showing me the book of things that Jesus actually said? because I can recall that was your only source
for quoting from Jesus when you were making your posts,so how do you know what he said from what he did not?

whatever Jesus say I believe do you have a problem with that?

wait after all of this, that is the answer you resort to? What was the point in all your argument for the past 200 pages then? nope you accuse me of not respecting what other people believe I am just making sure you are not guilty of the same
because it seems as if you are guilty of most of your own accusations so far

why not do your own research? that way you can refute what we said

I did my research, it shows there are over 1 billion catholics in the world today who follow this "wrong" way as you claim and I brought up that point because Toyo said God was making progress in dealing with evil claiming more and more people are converting to what Toyo said was the correct way to salvation. I am making the point that the numbers and statistics do no show what he claims.so tell me this ...you can count how many people are doing it the "right" way? please show me this ....you did research and you came up with
over 1 billion Catholics where are the figures for the ones doing it the "right" way?
don't tell me you don't have that otherwise your research has a flaw
you cannot make a comparison with figures for only one group
that's just lame

God did it on the cross, now its for us to do the rest, that is to reject sin and turn from it and allow him to sanctify us
the only way one can do that is thru faith in Jesus Christ
our faith in Jesus gives us power over sin and everything that is of the kingdom of darkness, as long as you don't have Jesus you are a slave to sin.
so this is why we preach the gospel... every soul that repents and turn from sin and every demon cast out and every curse broken and every sick healed and every lie exposed and pulled down
is progress against evil...

kinda hard to prove something is a lie or something is the truth when you have to proof or evidence though
yes but it is you who don't have proof not because you don't have any means that I don't have any otherwise call me a liar

do you think your posts for the past 200 pages have helped to make any progress in here? Has anyone repented from it?how would we know? thats what I am asking you how would you get your figures?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ where did toyo get his figures?

I am not intolerant of anyone's beliefs
You made a big claim on the forum that you can cast out demons and heal the sick yet you can't prove it here. That is why I question your beliefs and I only ask so that I can understand your logic. If I find the logic in your answer is flawed that that would lead to another question. This is not intolerance.

Some people feel we should not question religion or teachings of God. I disagree, because no one has been able to prove which ones are true.

I would like to get your feedback on this article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity


also see

VATICAN CITY, APRIL 27, 2010 (Zenit.org).- The Vatican announced today that its publishing house has released a new edition of the Statistical Yearbook of the Church, comprising information from 2000 to 2008, including that the number of Catholics in the world is now 1.16 billion.

Over these nine years, the Catholic presence in the world has grown from 1.045 billion in 2000 to 1.166 billion in 2008, an increase of 11.54%. Considering the statistics in detail, numbers in Africa grew by 33%, in Europe they remained generally stable (an increase of 1.17%), while in Asia they increased by 15.61%, in Oceania by 11.39% and in America by 10.93%. As a percentage of the total population, European Catholics represented 26.8% in 2000 and 24.31% in 2008. In America and Oceania they have remained stable, and increased slightly in Asia.

The number of bishops in the world went up from 4,541 in 2000 to 5,002 in 2008, an increase of 10.15%.

granted this is the Vatican claiming their religion has grown, the numbers have gone without argument.

megadoc1 how much people are in your "very powerful denominational group" in Woodbrook?

[d spike]

and every lie exposed and pulled down
is progress against evil...

What makes it worse is that this Pharisee has the balls to condemn others but I can picture it now, Christ's arrival, you get all excited then he tells you "but wait, ent you condemn d spike?, well if you could do that, then save your damn self".

oh lola..... you so misunderstood Jesus Christ here
for if I did condemn...

hoss yuh rolling in level BS there because what you are basically putting forward is after yuh condemn d spike yuh went and say "forgive me nah Lord"...

first to begin with I never condemned anyone...

you didn't condemn d spike??? hoss u effin schizo and so says my entire faculty of behavioural sciences... I wish I could find the quote where u condemned d spike.

with thatI rebuke you in the mighty name of Jesus Christ son of the living God

d spike, is a wicked man just as earlier detected...

take win d spike but I have news for you
you are already condemned and without Christ all your "good works" done throughout your entire life are only seen as filthy rags before God
and a greater judgment is reserved for you for every soul you deceived.

hey you found it!!! no where here it says that his sin is condemned. it says spike is condemned.

One lie of many... exposed! Yay! I'm doing my bit in the battle against evil! Yay! Beam me up, Jesus!

[megadoc1]

^ where did toyo get his figures?
re read what toyo posted

I am not intolerant of anyone's beliefs
You made a big claim on the forum that you can cast out demons and heal the sick yet you can't prove it here. obviously
That is why I question your beliefs and I only ask so that I can understand your logic. If I find the logic in your answer is flawed that that would lead to another question. This is not intolerance.well I guess you have problem,you are looking for logic in my belief
but my belief surpasses that of what you consider as logic leaving you to think that what I believe seems foolish

Some people feel we should not question religion or teachings of God. I disagree,
I disagree too because God respects us so much he even allows for us to even test Him
and thats what we do, we act on what we believe sit back,watch it bare fruit and say amen because no one has been able to prove which ones are true.
you sure about this ? how far did you go to come up with that statement?

[megadoc1]

take win d spike but I have news for you
you are already condemned and without Christ all your "good works" done throughout your entire life are only seen as filthy rags before God
and a greater judgment is reserved for you for every soul you deceived.

hey you found it!!! no where here it says that his sin is condemned. it says spike is condemned.

One lie of many... exposed! Yay! I'm doing my bit in the battle against evil! Yay! Beam me up, Jesus![/quote]
oh boy spike please show me the lie? tell me really, where did I (megadoc1) condemned you? last time I checked we were all condemned but I choose life(Jesus)as long as you reject Jesus you are already condemned(and you know this is what Christians believe) ....so what did I say new to you?
John 316-18
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[b]

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ lol

d spike the man take it and spin it around yes
megadoc1 you are evasive beyond measure!

So lets see what we have here: Megadoc1 makes some claims which he nor bluefete nor toyo can prove yet they support.
After a couple hundred pages, megadoc1 claims he "obviously" cannot prove himself.

Seems that this was just a bunch of hot air; an exercise for the apologetics, who so far havent done so well in this thread.

[megadoc1]

now that's sad

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

sad, but true.
I enjoyed all the research it made me do

[toyo682]

So lets see what we have here: Megadoc1 makes some claims which he nor bluefete nor toyo can prove yet they support.

We support because although we are three different men who have never met, we have all had similar experiences with the God about whom we preach. That alone is evidence in itself.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ 3 vs 1.16 billion+ who have varying views from you in the SAME religion. That is evidence too.

[megadoc1]

sad, but true.
I enjoyed all the research it made me do really ? what about practical stuff?
because what we believe is not of word only but in power so please don't tell me you did a biased,short cut or word only research because I offered you Great opourtunity
to learn a lot more that would have even made you question your own logic but you turn it down

to me the saddest part is that souls would be lost
doing everything else when all they have to do is believe and trust in Jesus
so I will keep preaching the gospel and I will demonstrate its power at any given opportunity to do so

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ that's what you believe

[megadoc1]

^ 3 following Jesus vs 1.16 billion+ following a tradition (doctrine of men)who have varying views from you in the SAME religion. That is evidence too.

bad comparison
you are still lacking in your research

how many billion people do you need to make something that's wrong right?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ that is also your belief

still condemning others I see

[bluefete]

Pressures of work and other things have kept me away for a while. Mega & Toyo- Thanks for the support.

Spike, I have to back track to give you some answers.

Duane - What do you think of this?

There is Too Much Evil and Suffering For God to Exist?
by Rich Deem

Introduction

Purpose of Evil?

Most atheists assume that a personal God would only create a universe that is both good morally and perfect physically. However, according to Christianity, the purpose of the universe is not to be morally or physically perfect, but to provide a place where spiritual creatures can choose to love or reject God - to live with Him forever in a new, perfect universe, or reject Him and live apart from Him for eternity. It would not be possible to make this choice in a universe in which all moral choices are restricted to only good choices. One cannot choose between good and bad if bad did not exist. It's an amazing simple logical principle.
Rich Deem



Atheists often claim that the presence of evil is an argument against the existence of God. The Christian God is supposed to be both loving and all-powerful. Despite these characteristics, God seems to be unable or unwilling to prevent the vast amount of evil and suffering in the world. The atheist concludes that either God is not loving or not all-powerful or that God does not exist, because if He did exist, He could stop all the suffering. The atheistic arguments contain some subtle assumptions that, as I will show, do not apply to the God of the Bible and His created universe. Even the assumption that evil and suffering are bad for us must be questioned in light of what the Bible says. This page specifically defends the principle that moral evil must exist. Another page examines the reasons why natural evil must exist. Although many atheists claim the presence of moral evil precludes the existence of God, others admit that God would be completely justified in allowing moral evil.1

The atheists' logical argument

What I have found is that atheists like to say that their arguments against God's existence specifically exclude the God of the Bible as a God who could exist. However, in reality, atheists produce generic arguments against a generic God whose characteristics and creation do not match those that are described in the Bible. Atheists may not accept what the Bible says, but they cannot say the God of the Bible cannot logically exist and then ignore what the Bible has to say about the characteristics of God. If the atheist states that the God of the Bible is logically impossible, he cannot pick and choose which arguments from the Bible to accept in order to "prove" his point. Let's formalize the atheist's arguments:

1. God is all-powerful, loving, and perfect.
2. A perfect, loving God would create a universe that was perfect (e.g., no evil and suffering).
3. The universe is not perfect but contains evil and suffering.

Therefore, God does not exist.

The Bible's Response

The Bible does state that God is "all powerful." In the Old Testament, one of God's titles is "El Shadday," which is translated "God Almighty."2 The Bible also states that God is loving.3 In fact, the Bible indicates that God is love.4 The Bible also indicates that God is perfect.5 So, we can agree that the first statement is a correct interpretation of what the Bible says about the characteristics of God.

The next statement indicates that a perfect, loving God must create a universe that is perfect. This is the statement that is false and invalidates the argument. Nowhere does the Bible state that the universe was created to be perfect. God Himself called it "good"6 and "very good,"7 but never "perfect." In fact, God Himself stated that part of the original creation was "not good."8 The Bible states that the current universe is not perfect,9 but was designed to be temporary10 and will be replaced with a perfect universe11 that will be permanent.12 Science also tells us that the universe was designed to be temporary.13

Why two creations instead of one?

Why would God create an imperfect, temporary universe only to replace it later with a perfect one? Why wouldn't God have created a perfect universe in the first place? This is a good question, but shows a lack of understanding of the biblical reason of why God created the universe. One can find the reason for the creation of the universe in the first few chapters of the Bible. God created humans in order to have a personal relationship with them, which He had with Adam and Eve before they sinned (Genesis 2). Jesus said that the first and foremost commandment was to "Love the Lord your God..."14 A personal relationship, characterized by the possibility of love, is only possible if created beings are given free will. If God had created the universe with no possibility of evil or sin, then the created beings would have had no free will, and, as such, would essentially be programmed computers. Such beings would be incapable of love, since love involves making a choice - which requires the ability to choose not to love. For example, I can program my computer to say "I love you" when it starts up. Does this mean that the computer really loves me? Of course not! Likewise, God could have programmed humans to say that they loved Him, without the possibility of rejecting Him or performing evil deeds. However, these programmed beings would exhibit about as much true love as my computer - not a very satisfying relationship. Therefore, God created the universe for the express purpose of allowing free will spiritual beings the opportunity to have fellowship with Him (and likewise, reject Him).

What does God want?

God's purposes in creating the universe go beyond merely creating free will beings that love Him in this temporary universe. Jesus explained the ultimate goal of God in the parable of the banquet:

Jesus replied: "A certain man [representing God] was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, 'Come, for everything is now ready.' But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, 'I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.' Another said, 'I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I'm on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.' Still another said, 'I just got married, so I can't come.' The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.' 'Sir,' the servant said, 'what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.' Then the master told his servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes and make them come in, so that my house will be full. (Luke 14:16-23)

This parable tells that God wants not only a relationship with humans in this universe, but a relationship with billions15 of these creatures in His future, perfect creation. If God's purpose is to have relationships with free will beings in a future creation, then there must be a means by which these beings can make a choice to enter or not enter into this relationship. The means by which we make this choice is exactly the message of the Bible.

Therefore. the Bible says that God allows temporary, bounded evil16 in order to allow free will beings to have the ability to love and to make choices. I am going to propose something which seems to support the atheists' arguments regarding evil. I agree that there is a lot of evil in the world. In fact, there is too much evil in the world from what would be expected from chaos theory or the laws of physics. Evolution does not explain the vast amount of evil done by mankind. None of the other creatures on our planet have the capacity for evil that mankind have. No other mammals kill arbitrarily. They only kill to eat and survive - but not mankind. Just watch the nightly news or read your newspaper. Look at all the evil perpetuated in the last century alone - 6 million Jews killed by Hitler, 40 million Russians killed by Stalin, 2 million Cambodians killed by their own government in the 1970's. In fact, the Pol Pot regime specifically preached atheism and sought to exterminate all religious expression in Cambodia. In addition to these atrocities, there have been hundreds of massacres committed in virtually every nation of the world. The Bible says that the presence of evil is due to the spiritual component of our nature - something that animals do not possess. God endowed His spiritual creatures (humans and angels) with free will to love God or to oppose Him. The most powerful created being (the angel Satan) rebelled and led one third of the angels into opposition against God. Those humans who oppose or ignore God follow Satan into rebellion - either consciously or unconsciously. Some people blame the evil on "society." However, society is composed of individuals who make individual choices. Most of the evil is committed by people who oppose the will of society. In contrast, there are many examples of societies in the animal kingdom, especially among the An order of mammals including man, apes, monkeys, etc., often characterized by large brains and flexible hands and feet.primates. None of these societies have the capacity for evil that we have. We are different from all other animals on our planet - a fact that has no scientific or evolutionary explanation.17

Why pain is necessary

The atheist also makes the assumption that all pain, suffering, and death are bad or evil. In fact, physical pain is absolutely vital to our survival. If we felt no pain, we would do things to ourselves that could be very destructive.18 For example, if we didn't feel pain when we touched a hot object, we would not react until we saw our flesh smoking. This is obviously not a good thing to do. Pain tells us we need to react to a situation before serious damage occurs.

Evil as a means of spiritual growth

Many things that people consider to be bad are, in fact, useful in our spiritual growth. The Bible says that trials in our lives produce perseverance, which helps make us mature and complete.19 These trials also increase our faith - a "refining by fire."20 The Bible tells us that "all things to work together for good to those who love God."21 Let me give you a couple concrete examples in my own life that illustrate these points.

I got very sick in 1985, at which time the tests revealed I had Crohn's disease, a serious, incurable inflammatory disease of the intestines. I found myself unable to do things using my own abilities and strength. I was bedridden in severe pain for two months, with the medicine doing nothing to improve my condition. I considered that I would probably spend the rest of my life in pain, in and out of hospitals. Not being able to do anything else in my own strength, I cried out to God and promised to try to follow Him and do what He wanted me to do (although I had no idea what that was at the time). Within three months all symptoms of Crohn's disease had disappeared. The trial was awful at the time, but God had to break my will, so that, when I heard the gospel of Jesus Christ three years later, I accepted it and turned my life over to Jesus, which has been the greatest joy of my life. In addition, I am much more thankful for my good health since that time of trial, and have been more sympathetic and helpful to others who are undergoing similar trials.

In 1996 my wife Carole and I learned that she had an inoperable brain tumor, and was expected to live four to seven years. We had been married only seven years and had three sons, aged 5, 3 and 1 years old at the time. The time since then has been difficult, but it has produced some remarkable changes in Carole. Her interest in jewelry, clothes, and other unimportant things has been replaced by a heightened commitment to family, and raising our boys. She also is more committed to helping others and regularly offers help as she is able. In addition, during this time God has been faithful in answering our prayers and comforting us through the many people who have loved us. What has been abundantly clear is that those people who have gone through the most severe trials are the ones who have ministered most to us. The trials these people have experienced have made them sensitive to the needs of others in similar situations, in ways that only they can understand. I know through this trial God will make me a better ambassador of Jesus Christ, and bring me opportunities for ministry which I would have ignored, had I not gone through this experience. In talking to other Christians about sufferings, you will find that it is through trials that they grow in their character and their faith. During the "easy" times, we become complacent. For the non-Christian, he sees the trials as mere annoyance or pointless suffering, often resulting in bitterness.

Conclusion

1. God did not design this universe to be perfect, but as a temporary creation where free will beings make choices about where they want to spend eternity (in the new creation, which will be perfect).
2. The new creation will be perfect, but will not have absolute free will for its inhabitants. We must agree in this life to give up some of our free will in the next life. Those who are unwilling to give up their own free will choices will not be forced to do so in the next life. However, they will have to be separated from the new creation, since God is unwilling to compromise His character.
3. All people will suffer at least somewhat because of bad choices that others make. In addition, because of the temporary nature of the universe, some bad things will happen to us due to "bad luck" or chance. However, these things will teach us to be more sensitive to the needs of others, and will prepare us to show God's love to others when they suffer through similar things. God want us to learn from this life, not just have a party.


References

1. According to atheist philosopher Brian Marston, "Although an omniscient, omnipotent, perfectly good God could be justified in allowing moral evil, such a God is never justified in creating a world in which natural evil occurs." (Brian Marston. 1998. The Problem of Natural Evil.)
2. Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. (Genesis 17:1)
3. But I trust in Your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in Your salvation. (Psalm 13:5)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
4. And we have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. (1 John 4:16)
5. "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He. (Deuteronomy 32:4)
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)
6. And God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:10)
See also Genesis 1:4, 12, 18, 21, 25.
7. And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (Genesis 1:31)
8. The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." (Genesis 2:18)
9. When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. (Hebrews 9:11)
that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. (Romans 8:21-22)
10. Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. (Revelation 21:1)
11. "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. (Isaiah 65:17)
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." (Revelation 21:4)
12. "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. (Isaiah 66:22)
13. The 2nd law of thermodynamics clearly shows that the universe was designed to be temporary. According to the most recent evidence, there is not enough matter in the universe to cause to contract. Therefore, the universe will continue to expand indefinitely and all the stars will eventually burn out and life would not be possible for the entire rest of the history of the universe. Even if there were enough matter to cause the eventual collapse of the universe, such a collapse would result in the "Big Crunch" - the state in which all the mass would be concentrated in one giant blob for the entire rest of the history of the universe (again life would be impossible).
14. Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' (Matthew 22:37) See also Deuteronomy 6:5.
15. After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. (Revelation 7:9)
16. God, in His wisdom and sovereignty created us with significantly less power and ability than He has, probably because He knew the evil we would have been capable of, had we been created with His abilities and power. Therefore we were created with complete free-will within our limited framework of 3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time. God, in contrast, exists is at least 10 dimensions of space and at least 2 dimensions of time.
17. See Humans Really Are Different!
18. Rare disease makes girl unable to feel pain from MSNBC.
19. Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. (James 1:2-4)
20. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. (1 Peter 1:6-7)
21. "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28)

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... ering.html
Last updated August 27, 2008

[bluefete]

Sorry for the double post.

[bluefete]

^ 3 vs 1.16 billion+ who have varying views from you in the SAME religion. That is evidence too.

There is ONLY one God.

People can disagree on a variety of methodologies to approaching God but it will never change the fact that there is ONLY one God.

Out of God's granting of free will came evil. Lucifer, Son of the Morning (Isaiah 14:12; Ezekiel 28:11-19), was the most powerful angel in heaven until he wanted to usurp his master's authority and throne.

From free will comes the choice of doing evil or good and their attendant consequences.

Sickness comes because we live in an imperfect, sinful world.

[bluefete]

Mega has been driving home the point so here is some additional support for him:


10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified , whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders , which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved . (Acts 4:10-12)

[d spike]

When one considers that communication is the sharing of ideas and concepts with others - and one truly respects others - one would pay close attention to the quality, and therefore, the preciseness, of that communication... after all, one would not want others to get the wrong idea, after one attempts to share it.
It can easily be said that language and communication is a dying art. Examples of this statement litter this thread.
Megadoc1 is the unhappy perfect example of this - he claims to have found the way home to his God, and wishes to share his finding with others... yet his posts are full, tamped down and spilling over with intolerance, disrespect, scorn, derision, inanity, contradiction and unintelligible babble... and he seems quite satisfied and pleased with this, for he makes no attempt to better himself - neither does he hide this fact from anyone, thus ably demonstrating his pride in this matter... reminding one of a puppy's swollen ego as he sniffs his own faecal droppings in the house. He is about as willing to communicate clearly with others as a frog that has been flattened on the roadway, five days before... and as about as endearing as well - and seemingly, just as intelligent.
He claims to "not care", and clearly shows that his only thoughts where others are concerned have absolutely nothing to do with respect, but as "pew-fodder".
All this makes him (and whatever message he could possibly attempt to broadcast) as endearing and attractive as vomit.

There is Too Much Evil and Suffering For God to Exist?
by Rich Deem

Introduction

Purpose of Evil?

Most atheists assume that a personal God would only create a universe that is both good morally and perfect physically. However, according to Christianity, the purpose of the universe is not to be morally or physically perfect, but to provide a place where spiritual creatures can choose to love or reject God - to live with Him forever in a new, perfect universe, or reject Him and live apart from Him for eternity. It would not be possible to make this choice in a universe in which all moral choices are restricted to only good choices. One cannot choose between good and bad if bad did not exist...

Well, Bluefete... you finally said something (no, not really... it would be more accurate to say "cut n' pasted something") that I agree with... and yes, I am referring to the ENTIRE article... except for one part.

The new creation will be perfect, but will not have absolute free will for its inhabitants. We must agree in this life to give up some of our free will in the next life. Those who are unwilling to give up their own free will choices will not be forced to do so in the next life. However, they will have to be separated from the new creation, since God is unwilling to compromise His character.

While it can be argued that what I will say means much the same thing as what I disagree with, such an argument will only be performed by a person who has no hope (or wish) of ever being a linguist. As I said at the beginning of this post, precise communication is necessary to get the exact point stated in order to be understood.

It is not that we "agree" to give up our free will in the next life. That is an error based on another error - the belief in the superiority of man's existence in this tactile reality. We are part of the Creation. We were created for a purpose. It is not that "There will be no free will in the hereafter", but rather, "free will" is the term used to refer to our ability to choose - for this life is but as a time of choosing - and there is no need for choosing in the next one.
This errant statement is just as foolishly said as a preacher bewailing the fact that there is no Faith in heaven... there is no Hope in the next life... so does that mean existence there is "hopeless"? Don't be absurd...
These things are but gifts, tools, to be used in this life. It isn't that "it will be TAKEN AWAY from you", but that you will no longer need them.
Materialism has taken such a firm grip on today's believer, that even though Paradise is his hoped-for destination, he sees the discarding of the trappings of this life as a "loss" - and voices it in terms of such. Who here has fond memories of his baby rattle? or his pacifier?

Please ensure that your concepts are expressed clearly, if you desire understanding on the part of your reader.

Spike, I have to back track to give you some answers.

I just want to know who told you what is kosher and what isn't, with regards to a particular item found in cattle who subscribe to being male.

[d spike]

to me the saddest part is that souls would be lost

Lying, little HYPOCRITE!!!!Since when do you care?
Didn't you say that you didn't care???!?!?

I DOH CARE ABOUT YOU OR ANYBODY OR THIS CHED!

Hey! I just exposed another lie! Hurrah!!!
Take me, Lord, your worthy servant... Beam me up, Lord!

[toyo682]

^ 3 vs 1.16 billion+ who have varying views from you in the SAME religion. That is evidence too.

The pentecostal charismatic movement has been estimated to make up a quarter of all Christians in the world today. That would put us somewhere close to 500 million. While one cannot deny the fact that there are many other denominations, we believe that the Bible is God's standard. We have been asked many times how we know our interpretation of the Bible is correct, it is written in plain English. If you can comprehend you can understand. Many follow Christianity merely as a religious duty, never full understanding what is written in the Bible(this is not limited to any particular denomination). Some time ago I asked Duane who claimed to be a catholic for most of his life until he marriage when he turned to Islam to show me where in scripture it says to pray to Mary or any other saint, his reply was to ask a priest. If a basic believer cannot explain their beliefs what is the point believing. Or is it that no such verse exist? If that is the case have we rejected what the Bible says for man made ideologies? I am not trying to judge any one, what I am saying is show me where these doctrines come from in the word of God.

[MG Man]

we believe that the Bible is God's standard. We have been asked many times how we know our interpretation of the Bible is correct, it is written in plain English. If you can comprehend you can understand.

first off, the bible was TRANSLATED to english, not written in it
secondly, if it is so plain, why are there contradictions and inconsistencies?
Why so many different interpretations to the same things?

[toyo682]

we believe that the Bible is God's standard. We have been asked many times how we know our interpretation of the Bible is correct, it is written in plain English. If you can comprehend you can understand.

first off, the bible was TRANSLATED to english, not written in it point taken, but the English translations are easy to understand. If one has a problem with the English then they should learn Greek and Hebrew. For one to say that the English is wrong because it was not written in English I believe is a wrong approach.
secondly, if it is so plain, why are there contradictions and inconsistencies?there are no contradictions, (I am fully aware of the perceived contradictions so no need to post them again.)
Why so many different interpretations to the same things?I would have to say it is because many have rejected what is said in the bible for what they want to believe. An example of this would be the founder of the JW's who did not think that a loving God would send anyone to hell. His belief was not based on what is written in scripture but what he felt.

But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death. Rev 20:8 This verse is a direct quote from the new world translation. Can anyone say what this lake of fire is metaphoric for? Even the bible that the JW's use talks about hell, yet they say it does not exist.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm

I am not against thinking for yourself so please don't go off ranting about that.

[MG Man]

u say the english translations are easy to understand yet so many struggle to make sense of it...and don't tell me EVERYONE who cannot make sense of the bible is a sinner........
and don't get me started on the subject of who translated, what parts were left out, and what parts were changed in translation..........heck there are VERSIONS of the bible...that alone says a lot
as an example of interpretation and manipulation, according to the original text, some argue the line was 'jesus walked BY the water' not 'on' the water
just one example
to fully understand the bible one would indeed have to learn hebrew and aramaic, AND interpret those writings in the context of the time they were written in...................
sorry bud, but like all relious texts, the bible is man made, and flawed
At least muslims have managed to keep their texts intact over the centuries...........

[megadoc1]

to me the saddest part is that souls would be lost

Lying, little HYPOCRITE!!!!Since when do you care? ever since I started preaching the gospel(my ramblings or however you put it)
Didn't you say that you didn't care???!?!? never !!!!!! please make me a liar

I DOH CARE ABOUT YOU OR ANYBODY OR THIS CHED!

wow d spike another low shot, how can you do this ?

Hey! I just exposed another lie! Hurrah!!! where?

Take me, Lord, your worthy servant... Beam me up, Lord!

good so lets see where I said that ....... I can recall it was a person who cliamed to be christian telling me that is the position I currently hold
in pink bellow

megadoc i have tried and tried to show you where you are going of track but you have refused to listen..listening is important. the same way that aba et all question you is the same way you have questioned me . yet the information i have told you is true. important things you are leaving out.

aba doesnt believe and is a doubter right.. but two wrongs dont make a right! Your position right now is SO! I BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD! SO! PROVE ME WRONG NUH! I DOH CARE ABOUT YOU OR ANYBODY OR THIS CHED! GOD WORK GOING ON NO MATTER WHAT!
This thread is Supposed to enlighten others about God, but you make it sound like a farce, cult, and pelting about scripture to people. If someone wants to know something, you can answer them logically and then use scripture to explain your position even further, not pelt scripture at them and say take dat! satan knows scripture too doh get tie up.. better than you.

so I put in my sig to see if the response to what I was really saying will be the same
lo and behold it was not so, as mr d spike seek to correct me
but now he comes back with it again but lets see how it went
http://www.trinituner.com/v3/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&hilit=supernatural&start=3000

Not a "christian" attitude at all! Better than that, lad. Why don't you say, "I don't care what you say", which would be less crass (somewhat) and more in line with your posts...

...after all, if you truly didn't care about anybody here, then why have you been posting all this verbage? Why not just ignore us heathen infidels...?

...or is it some driving need to see your rantings posted for the world to see? That's ego, lad... seems you have proven me right

so you agree that this is a false statement?

What sort of dotard's query is this????
You made a statement about what you believe and how you feel!
I can't open your head and see what is really there... I need you to voice that material in order to know it. So how can I say that statement is false???
I hope you were errant in explaining yourself (as you are so wont to do) thus my suggestion as to how you might better define what you were trying to say.

...but if I am wrong, and you meant exactly what you said... then you can see my answer in the post prior to this.

am I did not make the statement, someone said that they think thats what i am saying
i just put it there to see if they really would accept it

This makes no sense whatsoever... so at least you're being consistent

you eh easy nah

d spike please

[d spike]

Some time ago I asked Duane who claimed to be a catholic for most of his life until he marriage when he turned to Islam to show me where in scripture it says to pray to Mary or any other saint, his reply was to ask a priest. If a basic believer cannot explain their beliefs what is the point believing. Or is it that no such verse exist? If that is the case have we rejected what the Bible says for man made ideologies? I am not trying to judge any one, what I am saying is show me where these doctrines come from in the word of God.

secondly, if it is so plain, why are there contradictions and inconsistencies?there are no contradictions, (I am fully aware of the perceived contradictions so no need to post them again.)

These posts seem to contain an interesting contradiction. According to the first post, once you are aware of a lack of information within the discussion, you prefer if that information is made known. (A quite common and acceptable situation)
Yet, in the second post, you seem to have a different attitude towards the presence of information within the discussion. The very fact that you can refer to the contradictions as "perceived", shows that you are well aware that others hold these matters as true. Why not encourage them to be stated and discussed, thus allowing you to expound on why they are not truly 'contradictions'... judging by your dogmatic "there are no contradictions", you are probably better informed where this is concerned, and such information would be more than welcome here, among your natterings of "if Jesus died"...
...unless of course, you don't wish to discuss it - rather like your lack of responses to my more serious posts - hence the reason for you preferring such "perceived contradictions" to not be stated here...
The only reason that you would not wish it discussed here, judging by the other topics you so readily bum your gum on, is that you actually cannot disprove such contradictions - and a discussion about them would simply show that those who perceived them to be true... were right.

[d spike]

am I did not make the statement, someone said that they think thats what i am saying
i just put it there to see if they really would accept it

This makes no sense whatsoever... so at least you're being consistent

you eh easy nah

d spike please

Some things don't change, eh?

So you didn't say such a thing? As Toyo would say, my bad

I guess I won't get beamed up just yet...
Considering all those times that you rebuked, condemned and accused me without justification or proof... a little sent in your direction shouldn't hurt you.



It was nice of you to recall one of those past discussions, especially when we all thought you weren't bothering with a thing we said - this shows you must have retained something...
Some of those conversations were rather entertaining... you should do this more often. Might I suggest the one where you were begging a girl to meet with her in private... and she proceeded to point out multiple possible mental aberrations that you were suffering from?

[megadoc1]

am I did not make the statement, someone said that they think thats what i am saying
i just put it there to see if they really would accept it

This makes no sense whatsoever... so at least you're being consistent

you eh easy nah

d spike please

Some things don't change, eh?

So you didn't say such a thing? As Toyo would say, my bad
COOL

I guess I won't get beamed up just yet...
Considering all those times that you rebuked, condemned and accused me without justification or proof... a little sent in your direction shouldn't hurt you.
lol...



It was nice of you to recall one of those past discussions, especially when we all thought you weren't bothering with a thing we said - this shows you must have retained something...SMH
Some of those conversations were rather entertaining... you should do this more often. Might I suggest the one where you were begging a girl to meet with her in private... and she proceeded to point out multiple possible mental aberrations that you were suffering from?lol.. not at all leave that alone, that is trouble by it self I eh going back dey

[sMASH]

nope u are wrong, jesus (pbuh) did not say that belief in him was the way to salvation , who did say so were people who heard about a man name john, and heard about a man name mark and heard about a man name matt, and a fellar name paul and et al, etc. apparently u reading the wrong book.do you mind showing me the book of things that Jesus actually said? because I can recall that was your only source
for quoting from Jesus when you were making your posts,so how do you know what he said from what he did not?

so u do understand what i mean!

[sparky]

The Bible is the Word of God, people can believe it or not it would not change the price of cocoa.