The Religion Discussion

[sMASH]

^^ so if i read 'pussin boots' with sincerity, would that make it true, or would the truth be revealed?

u cannot prove that when the first time the words were uttered that eternal was nor wasn't used.

[toyo682]

the greek word for eternal, the scripture it was written, exact to the first dictation? may be , may be not.
some body may have heard that story and amazed by it told it to another person, and that person zealously, made the time sound so long it could be considered eternal, and then the person who wrote it wrote eternal in aramic and then it was translated into spanish and then read out to the greeks who scribed it as eternal in greek

Do you have proof this is the case?

[cacasplat3]

as for the age of the earth, its definitely older than 10,000 years.........there are single trees that are almost 5000 years old..............the fact that, a tree species would have had to adapt to its harsh living conditions would have taken hundreds or even thousands of years............and that adaptation would have been done by its parents, and the parents would pass on the best genes for its offspring to survive..............
the age of the trees are proven..........there is no belief here, only proof.........

[megadoc1]

^^ so if i read 'pussin boots' with sincerity, would that make it true, or would the truth be revealed?

u cannot prove that when the first time the words were uttered that eternal was nor wasn't used.

I take it thats the same attitude you read the koran with
because history shows that it was compiled after the death of Muhammad
how you so sure that they did not burn the correct copy?

[cacasplat3]

the greek word for eternal, the scripture it was written, exact to the first dictation? may be , may be not.
some body may have heard that story and amazed by it told it to another person, and that person zealously, made the time sound so long it could be considered eternal, and then the person who wrote it wrote eternal in aramic and then it was translated into spanish and then read out to the greeks who scribed it as eternal in greek

Do you have proof this is the case?

english isnt your high point is it?

[megadoc1]

two awesome songs here .....enjoy

[toyo682]

the greek word for eternal, the scripture it was written, exact to the first dictation? may be , may be not.
some body may have heard that story and amazed by it told it to another person, and that person zealously, made the time sound so long it could be considered eternal, and then the person who wrote it wrote eternal in aramic and then it was translated into spanish and then read out to the greeks who scribed it as eternal in greek

Do you have proof this is the case?

english isnt your high point is it?

My point is there is no proof of this and thus we must go with what we have not what we speculate to be. Until there is proof that someone changed the word we have to work with it was is. Comprehension seems to be something we all lack.

[cacasplat3]

the greek word for eternal, the scripture it was written, exact to the first dictation? may be , may be not.
some body may have heard that story and amazed by it told it to another person, and that person zealously, made the time sound so long it could be considered eternal, and then the person who wrote it wrote eternal in aramic and then it was translated into spanish and then read out to the greeks who scribed it as eternal in greek

Do you have proof this is the case?

english isnt your high point is it?

My point is there is no proof of this and thus we must go with what we have not what we speculate to be. Until there is proof that someone changed the word we have to work with it was is. Comprehension seems to be something we all lack.

the same could apply to religious teachings.....where's the proof it happened?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

the greek word for eternal, the scripture it was written, exact to the first dictation? may be , may be not.
some body may have heard that story and amazed by it told it to another person, and that person zealously, made the time sound so long it could be considered eternal, and then the person who wrote it wrote eternal in aramic and then it was translated into spanish and then read out to the greeks who scribed it as eternal in greek

perfect example here of guess work
when you read the bible with this attitude you end up with what you think it could/should be

but like it or not, that is how these books get written, transliterated, translated and then converted to our modern english. There are SO MANY versions of the bible. The qu'ran that sMash is reading is the exact same all over the world.

I think the real guess work is in the exegesis and hermeneutics of religious texts

[d spike]

I cannot answer for Catholics, you will have to ask a priest or a maybe a bishop.
Not necessarily. These questions can be answered by anyone who has studied Catholicism properly. (Note I didn't say "anyone who has studied Catholicism by reading anti-Catholic rantings", as these tend to allow their bias to distort what they think that Catholics actually believe ) Many people can follow and believe fervently in a Faith of their choosing, without knowing about many of their belief's tenets - simply because those tenets are not (yet) applicable in their lives. This isn't wrong. It is good to know First Aid, but one doesn't need to be a doctor, to help others.

So you are saying that you take the literal meaning of everything in the bible?
He would love dearly to tell you "yes", but we all know that life makes us ask questions, and we resolve these questions by applying our Faith. Many questions that plague us are as old as life itself: Where do we go when we die? Why do bad things happen to good folks? However, some questions are new - no one has ever asked them before - possibly because the situation in which the query arose hasn't occurred before. Sooner or later, he won't be able to find a direct response in his scriptures to a question... and here is where one realises that one's faith is a living, growing part of us. For in order to deal with the question, he has to now move away from his comfort zone, filled with precise scriptural quotations, and become aware of his ability to think along parallel lines that mirror and complement the relevant meanings behind the now obsolete and irrelevant words. If he is unable to do this, then his Faith was merely a shell of comfort, a pacifier, a pretense... a sham. A collection of parroted words and behaviour, gleaned from others in order to fit in, or hide away... just to acquire a false sense of security, or the odour of self-righteousness.

plain and simple the best one is to start at the original intent of the writer, all these others came about to support what people want the Bible to say. That is why you cannot answer the question

Remarkable... you can choose to ignore questions directed at you, but when answers are not forthcoming from others based on questions of your asking, you claim it is because they "cannot answer". Why assume a lack of knowledge on their part? Could it be a lack of relevance on your query's part?

A while ago I was taking to a SDA gentleman concerning hell, when the passage of revelation 20 came up where it speaks of forever and forever, he told me that forever and forever meant for a period of time.

Perhaps you should ask Sparky to explain this intriguing example?

[megadoc1]

the greek word for eternal, the scripture it was written, exact to the first dictation? may be , may be not.
some body may have heard that story and amazed by it told it to another person, and that person zealously, made the time sound so long it could be considered eternal, and then the person who wrote it wrote eternal in aramic and then it was translated into spanish and then read out to the greeks who scribed it as eternal in greek

Do you have proof this is the case?

english isnt your high point is it?

My point is there is no proof of this and thus we must go with what we have not what we speculate to be. Until there is proof that someone changed the word we have to work with it was is. Comprehension seems to be something we all lack.

the same could apply to religious teachings.....where's the proof it happened?

Comprehension seems to be something we all lack.

man you all over the place toyo82 is correcting you from going off
now you want to apply the correction to what we were really talking about
we don't speculate on the bible we either believe in it or not.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ nothing is wrong with believing in it. Believing that you are right and someone else is wrong without being able to show them any proof is another thing entirely.

I cannot answer for Catholics, you will have to ask a priest or a maybe a bishop.

But are you not the one who said that you were catholic up until the time of your marriage when you converted to Islam.

true and I learn about the religions, hinduism too as my grandfather was, I have alot of Presbyterian family and i try to learn about their beliefs too. It does not mean I can answer questions for them.

So you are saying that you take the literal meaning of everything in the bible?

Now that would not be the case if one were to do proper hermeneutics now would it.

I am not saying no, I am asking you how do you know that your method of hermeneutics is the correct one? Please answer.

How old is the earth then? According to literal biblical calculations the earth is 6000-10,000 years old.

How should I know and why should I be concerned. Does it really matter at the end when it comes to my relationship with God. There are many things we will never understand. No where in the Bible does it say so, man may have estimated it to be so, but man has proven to not always be correct.

LOL that is a cop-out. Are you saying there are things in the bible that does not really matter to you? you get caught up in the details of one verse and ignore the other because you feel to or it conflicts with the scientifically proven truth?

waw, imagine 190 pages and it takes 3 of you plus the occasional input from some others and STILL you cannot prove that you are more right than any other person's beliefs yet you claim you are more right

[toyo682]

There are SO MANY versions of the bible. I might be wrong but this is partly correct, there is not so much as many versions but translations. I believe if not mistaken they stem from the same Greek. The qu'ran that sMash is reading is the exact same all over the world.

[megadoc1]

the greek word for eternal, the scripture it was written, exact to the first dictation? may be , may be not.
some body may have heard that story and amazed by it told it to another person, and that person zealously, made the time sound so long it could be considered eternal, and then the person who wrote it wrote eternal in aramic and then it was translated into spanish and then read out to the greeks who scribed it as eternal in greek

perfect example here of guess work
when you read the bible with this attitude you end up with what you think it could/should be

but like it or not, that is how these books get written, transliterated, translated and then converted to our modern english.the bible is translated directly from the original language to English do some research There are SO MANY versions of the bible.not versions but translations ....two thing stop guessing or just be honest when making these kind of statements ,it only tells how much you are not aware of The qu'ran that sMash is reading is the exact same all over the world.

I think the real guess work is in the exegesis and hermeneutics of religious texts
its not about what you think pal unless you have some kind of proof

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

There are SO MANY versions of the bible.

not versions but translations ....two thing stop guessing or just be honest when making these kind of statements ,it only tells how much you are not aware of

being condescending makes you feel more right, ent? I thought you were supposed to follow Jesus' ways?

why do they call it the "King James Version"?

version means that in the translation it is different from the original because it is put into a different language with different lingual nuances. Words have many different meanings in different languages; the translator will choose what he feels is the best fit, which is why there are so many VERSIONS because there are different translators.

it is in this same translation context that words that mean "eternal" and "forever" or "a thousand years" can get mixed meanings from different translators.

[d spike]

english isnt your high point is it?

Unfortunately, it isn't. Wherever he went to learn Religion probably didn't stress the need to be able to communicate clearly with others, and so share ideas efficiently - hence his acceptance of Megadoc's verbage. It makes you wonder how the degree was acquired, if not by written examinations... possibly it was done by that unspoken method of communication that surpasses conversation which Megadoc spoke of... unfortunately, Toyo seems reluctant to explain this medium, so the rest of us lower life-forms will just have to resort to common language.

My point is there is no proof of this and thus we must go with what we have not what we speculate to be.

My goodness. Whatever would happen to you if you held firm to this statement. Where are your slaves? How many adulterers have you stoned lately? How many wives and concubines have you? Antibiotics and modern anesthesia are nowhere in the bible... I hope you never have to undergo surgery done according to your beliefs - if the pain doesn't kill you, then the secondary infections will. Cars, planes, calculators, computers... are they in the bible? Are they then the result of the Devil's machinations? (Do you use them? )

If you really held to this, then why are you not living like the Amish? Fiddling with all these infernal, modern contraptions... perhaps that explains all these nonsensical, endless arguments... they are just attempts to ease the guilt-ridden soul, stained with the muck of modernity...

[d spike]

So you are saying that you take the literal meaning of everything in the bible?

Now that would not be the case if one were to do proper hermeneutics now would it.

I am not saying no, I am asking you how do you know that your method of hermeneutics is the correct one? Please answer.

We all say so! So it must be true!

I think the real guess work is in the exegesis and hermeneutics of religious texts
its not about what you think pal unless you have some kind of proof

Quite right... it's REALLY about what some old fogeys thought (since they didn't have any kind of proof either, but they were led by the spirit... the same spirit that you KNOW, beyond any doubt, can't possibly lead Duane, because he doesn't attend the same cultic gathering as you... and you can tell that Duane is unaffected by the same spirit, for you can read his mind...)

Exegesis... Hermeneutics... isn't semantics wonderful? We use a fancy greek word to describe a common ability, and all of a sudden, it makes us look like we KNOW what we are talking about. (Rather like poor, old Bluefete and his small Latin and his non-kosher bull-dick rope... ) Opinion, interpretation, theory of interpretation... it's all the same old thing. I remember having to deal with a group who were convinced that Jeremiah 10 showed that Christmas trees were wrong and evil (simply because they relied solely on the KJV) and I had to beg them to check another translation just for them to see the word 'idol' in use, for them to realise that 'idols', not Christmas trees, were Jeremiah's problem - the KJV doesn't use the word 'idol' in the excerpt that was under discussion.

[cacasplat3]

Comprehension seems to be something we all lack.lol, "we"?, seems like you have mice in your pockets.......speak for yourself.......

man you all over the place toyo82 is correcting you from going off
now you want to apply the correction to what we were really talking about
we don't speculate on the bible we either believe in it or not.

toyos saw the need to ask for proof, when sMASH's statement was made to represent what could have taken place(hypothetical situation).......as Duane pointed out, there are many ways one language can be interpreted........different translators may see figurative meaning where others took the same words literally..........

i agree that there is no proof of this, because it is a hypothetical situation(if he could comprehend that, there would be no misunderstanding). however, its hypocritical of toyo to ask for proof of this misinterpretation, when we have been asking for proof of God for the last 150+ pages with nothing solid brought to the discussion.

[d spike]

Here is what entertains me the most with these neo-uberChristians, who spurn and pour scorn on orthodox Christianity...
Religious belief is not a giant supermarket, where you can go in and handpick what you prefer to believe. With some argument, one could prove that one's personal philosophy may be like this, but not one's religious beliefs. While a child's religious belief is based on what one is taught, an adult's true belief is based on what one experiences in life - in other words, one's belief matures as one does. If one's religion is purely intellectual, then it can be argued that the true essence of a relationship with the Creator is still missing in one's life... but I digress.

Here's an old Dutch story that explains my point:
A spider living in the rafters of an old barn with the other spiders, grew restless, and wondered what else the world had to offer. So he let himself down on a thread, dangling further and further into the space below. After a great deal of travel, he came down into a different place, where there was light, and lots of flies... and he stayed there, and grew fat and happy.
One day while strolling around on his web, checking the tension on the strings, he came across this solitary strand, which went straight up into the darkness above. "Whatever is this doing here? It serves no purpose," thought the spider, and mildly irritated, he cut the useless thread...
...and he and his home tumbled down into space, falling far to the floor below.

These neo-Christians refuse to consider where their religion comes from, picking and choosing from Christianity's coffers what they prefer to believe, then turning up their noses at what is left. The same group who considered that certain books were written by men who were inspired, and thus those books contained revealed truth, and then compiled the bible, is the same group these neo-Christians accuse of leading folks astray... and the bible isn't the only choice titbit taken.
Rather like the old lady on the corner who you scorn, yet visit when the need for a bush medicine remedy arises, one can smell the ingratitude and hypocrisy of these ingrates from far away.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

I think the real guess work is in the exegesis and hermeneutics of religious texts

its not about what you think pal unless you have some kind of proof

The proof is clearly that there are dozens of different principles in biblical hermeneutics, proving that each principle is based on what the translator chose. The fact that not all agree with your principle of hermeneutics means that you think the others are guessing incorrectly as is the case with roman catholic hermeneutics or trajectory hermeneutics.

please try again.

some gland seems to raise and excite you when ever I type "I think" or "I feel" apparently because you can jump in and say "well that is your opinion and therefore not true" or "its not about what you think pal". It is getting rather old.

YOU DO NOT HAVE PROOF so unless you plan to produce some here you should stop pretending to be an authority on what is fact and what is fiction.

In your case, these 190 pages just boils down to ONE thing: You made a claim which you cannot prove is real and so far all evidence points to the fact that it is just your imagination.

Can you prove otherwise?

[toyo682]

toyos saw the need to ask for proof, when sMASH's statement was made to represent what could have taken place(hypothetical situation).......as Duane pointed out, there are many ways one language can be interpreted........different translators may see figurative meaning where others took the same words literally..........

First of all you are wrong once again, I did not ask the man for proof expecting it, I know fully well he has not nor does anyone else. I asked for proof to make a point, so let me say it in other words.

"It is important that we never allow the things we do not fully understanding to obscure for us the areas of truth in which God has provided clear understanding" Derek Prince..

[toyo682]

How old is the earth then? According to literal biblical calculations the earth is 6000-10,000 years old?

How should I know and why should I be concerned. Does it really matter at the end when it comes to my relationship with God. There are many things we will never understand. No where in the Bible does it say so, man may have estimated it to be so, but man has proven to not always be correct.

LOL that is a cop-out. Are you saying there are things in the bible that does not really matter to you? you get caught up in the details of one verse and ignore the other because you feel to or it conflicts with the scientifically proven truth?

Once again you exhibit a lack of comprehension that you scold others for having. Read what I have written or do you have a verse in the Bible that says, 'thus saith the Lord the earth is between 6000-10000 years", if so please post.

[toyo682]

My point is there is no proof of this and thus we must go with what we have not what we speculate to be.

My goodness. Whatever would happen to you if you held firm to this statement. Where are your slaves? How many adulterers have you stoned lately? How many wives and concubines have you? Antibiotics and modern anesthesia are nowhere in the bible... I hope you never have to undergo surgery done according to your beliefs - if the pain doesn't kill you, then the secondary infections will. Cars, planes, calculators, computers... are they in the bible? Are they then the result of the Devil's machinations? (Do you use them? )

If you really held to this, then why are you not living like the Amish? Fiddling with all these infernal, modern contraptions... perhaps that explains all these nonsensical, endless arguments... they are just attempts to ease the guilt-ridden soul, stained with the muck of modernity...

read what I wrote again obviously you lack comprehension as well, I said that there is no proof that word was change as smash hypothesized according to another gentle man here. I did not say if it is not in the Bible it cannot be so. But I guess that is how people like you play, make others out to be ignorant to discredit them. Sitting behind you computer it is easy to scoff at others especial when it is only our opinion and not what you truly believe that they are allow to see.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ based on previous claims in this thread by your fellow believers (megadoc1 and bluefete) claims were made that based on passages in the bible the earth is calculated to be around 6000-10,000 years old.

I asked you "How old is the earth then?" and you cop out of the questions stating "How should I know and why should I be concerned. Does it really matter at the end when it comes to my relationship with God."

Where is the lack of comprehension there?

I asked you a question and you copped out by claiming you don't care about the answer.
Saying you don't care does not answer the question since I didn't ask "do you care how old the bible says the earth is?"

So before you go off about comprehension skills, please answer the question which I'll rephrase for clarity: How old is the earth according to calculations made by Christians from accounts in the bible?

[megadoc1]

I think the real guess work is in the exegesis and hermeneutics of religious texts

its not about what you think pal unless you have some kind of proof

The proof is clearly that there are dozens of different principles in biblical hermeneutics, proving that each principle is based on what the translator chose. The fact that not all agree with your principle of hermeneutics means that you think the others are guessing incorrectly as is the case with roman catholic hermeneutics or trajectory hermeneutics.

please try again.

some gland seems to raise and excite you when ever I type "I think" or "I feel" apparently because you can jump in and say "well that is your opinion and therefore not true" or "its not about what you think pal". It is getting rather old.

YOU DO NOT HAVE PROOF so unless you plan to produce some here you should stop pretending to be an authority on what is fact and what is fiction.

In your case, these 190 pages just boils down to ONE thing: You made a claim which you cannot prove is real and so far all evidence points to the fact that it is just your imagination.

Can you prove otherwise?

at this point I guess you will have to call me a fraud and call it a day
I just hope it is enough to comfort you

[toyo682]

[quote="d spike"
Remarkable... you can choose to ignore questions directed at you, but when answers are not forthcoming from others based on questions of your asking, you claim it is because they "cannot answer". Why assume a lack of knowledge on their part? Could it be a lack of relevance on your query's part?[/quote] exactly why I do not answer...

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Sitting behind you computer it is easy to scoff at others especial when it is only our opinion and not what you truly believe that they are allow to see.

d spike said it earlier: what him and I believe is irrelevant here. You and bluefete and megadoc1 have been claiming that your beliefs in Christianity is correct and other's (such as Roman Catholics) are wrong and also your beliefs are the truth and those of other religions are false.

We are asking you to prove your claims - and so far you have not.
Is it that you cannot prove you are correct and other beliefs are wrong?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

I think the real guess work is in the exegesis and hermeneutics of religious texts

its not about what you think pal unless you have some kind of proof

The proof is clearly that there are dozens of different principles in biblical hermeneutics, proving that each principle is based on what the translator chose. The fact that not all agree with your principle of hermeneutics means that you think the others are guessing incorrectly as is the case with roman catholic hermeneutics or trajectory hermeneutics.

please try again.

some gland seems to raise and excite you when ever I type "I think" or "I feel" apparently because you can jump in and say "well that is your opinion and therefore not true" or "its not about what you think pal". It is getting rather old.

YOU DO NOT HAVE PROOF so unless you plan to produce some here you should stop pretending to be an authority on what is fact and what is fiction.

In your case, these 190 pages just boils down to ONE thing: You made a claim which you cannot prove is real and so far all evidence points to the fact that it is just your imagination.

Can you prove otherwise?

at this point I guess you will have to call me a fraud and call it a day
I just hope it is enough to comfort you

so then you have no proof to show here to back up your claims?

[megadoc1]

duane get your facts right I never claim the earth was 6000 years old
that was something you were putting to me please check your posts

[toyo682]

So before you go off about comprehension skills, please answer the question which I'll rephrase for clarity: How old is the earth according to calculations made by Christians from accounts in the bible?

Depends on which Christians you speak of I for one am open in the subject, because the Bible is not clear, some say 6000-10000, some say old, I think the age of the earth does not really matter hence my original answer. How old did Adam look like after 2 seconds of life, does the Bible say. One can only speculate that he looked like a man, we will never know. Does it change who God is? For me no...



But here comes the question from Duane again how does one know what is literal or not? Where the Bible speaks plainly well the answer is obvious, where the Bible it is not and we have to speculate... well you do the math.